coops 13.07.2005 08:27 |
Read his comments this morning on his views of how we are of the bad guys ( I should have have known we deserve to die) and wanted to ger a little understanding myself. I live in the USA by the way and despite what he says,...a climate of fear, which, sadly, the U.S.A. is already experiencing...is not true. I think we all get fraustrated because we are afraid a little and do no understand the mentality of cold blooded killers any more than we do people who for example molest and kill children. We need concrete reasons. Accepting that people are just evil is hard. want to see our politicians answer the question 'Why?' Why do people hate us this much? What can we do to change this? It's no use thinking we are dealing with a small bunch of maniacs, as seems to be the popular view, who need to be 'stamped out.' I have a few tips that may help: 1. NEVER say anything that may be even remotly offensive to islam. Do not even show negative news on tv. They hate this. Check out Rushdie or the Dutch filmaker that was murdered. 2. Make music that is only pleasing to god 3. Teach Islam in the schools. If we are evil than we must try to be like them and show we are not. 4.Talking of how we are perceived of a s greedy, how much are you worth Brian? Or is that different? 5. Pay $500 for a barrel of oil. That is what Bin Laden said we should be doing. Sell it to the infidels but make them pay. 6. Take out all westerners from the middle east, no matter who they are or what they do. Laden has stated clearly that we do not belong there. We are the infidel. 7. Continue with humanitarian aid and increase it as much as we can afford. They may hate us but we have to show we are better and continue to send them money. 8. Remove troops from Bosnia. If the slaugher continues, well the terrorists can step in and help. Like they give a damm about their own people anyway. 9.Do NOT develop electric cars. If we do not need oil, these people have NOTHING, and that would be hatefull on our behalf right? Look, I could go on and I respect Brians views, but it is a relativly small percentage of people who want to do us harm. Do you really want to change your way of live out of fear, and hope they leave you alone until the next time they want something. While not perfect, do you really think the USA and England is evil? If so, how could you live there? Must be non-evil places you can be. Lastly, knowing what Sadam was doing to his people (women and children) daily, do you not think it's evil to do nothing? "What a shame, we will do a concert and send money". But they still die. Singing kumbaya and hoping does not make dictators go away and does not relieve most of the worlds suffering. never has, probably never will. |
Adam Baboolal 13.07.2005 10:01 |
What comments? I see something about the darkness, a concert and some comet things. Peace, Adam. |
Mr.Jingles 13.07.2005 11:05 |
I don't think Brian refered to citizens of the UK and the USA as evil, but rather their governments. The whole war on terrorism is a complete bunch of LIES. The Bush Administration believes that by taking Al-Qaeda out of Afghanistan, they've destroyed most of it. Well, it happens to be that Al-Qaeda is made out of dozens (possibly hundreds) of terrorist cells all around the world, including the U.S.A. Why not put all our effort into finding terrorists inside nations in threat, as well as collaborating with other countries into finding Al-Qaeda links. Obviously, the arrogant attitude of the Bush Administration is not helping at all to fight terrorism. Although I truly believe that Saddam Hussein well deserved to be taken out of power, it seems obvious now that the reasons to invade Iraq were phony. The accusations with the WMD, and the Al-Qaeda links were all a bunch of made-up stories. If Saddam Hussein truly had WMDs, why didn't he used them to defend himself? Oh, and Osama Bin Laden... the long forgotten Osama Bin Laden, where the hell is he now? Last year Bush himself said not being concerned about finding him, even though he's directly responsible for killing 3,000 Americans. Now, 53 UK citizens were just killed, and still Bush hasn't mentioned Osama Bin Laden once. |
Boy Thomas Raker 13.07.2005 11:27 |
I think your comment about living in the USA explains a lot, coops. Americans, on the whole (I'm Canadian, with family living in the US), are the most insular people on earth. I read Brian's comments on Friday about the bombing, and he mentioned that we have to wonder why there is hatred towards the west. I don't pretend to have that answer, but I believe that the bullshit war on terrorism is part of the problem, and the American governments arrogance and disrespect to most things not American. America is both the most amazing and most fucked up country on earth. |
Daburcor? 13.07.2005 14:40 |
Mr.Jingles79 wrote: I don't think Brian refered to citizens of the UK and the USA as evil, but rather their governments.That was how I understood it as well. |
7Innuendo7 13.07.2005 15:26 |
one society blindly worships the military industrial complex...the other society just worships. sometimes there's no balance in that either imho. maybe it's the western materialism some cultures hate, the secular humanism. I was fortunuate to live in Pakistan several years ago, after the CIA stopped supplying Osama Bin Laden with Stinger missiles.... ever heard of the Savak? secret police organized in Iran by CIA for Shah of Pahlivi? "build your muscles as your body decays" |
coops 13.07.2005 15:28 |
I should have mentioned that I am English and have lived here for 15 years. If you READ and not automaticlly assume that some sources are correct regardless, you will know that the US gave Iraq plenty of opportunity to allow people into his country to search for wmd's. We know he had them at one time and in light of 911 and wanting to prevent another attack, it made sense to make sure he had none. Not that he may use them, but that he may give / sell to someone who might. Perhaps Sadams word was good enough for you, but not for me. The United Nations already had several resolutions that they were not enforcing and, as it turns out, had good reason. They were taking money from Iraq illegaly. Sadam refused to allow inspectors to go where they want because he had the guarantee of France, Germany and Russia that the UN would not pass a resolution allowing military action. Sadam was by the way paying the families cash rewards should their son or daughter be a suicide bomber. He was always allowing soldiers to fire on planes in the no-fly zone and allowed terrorists to train in his country. These are facts. And we do always look for terrorists in our own backyard, but they come from somewhere. Perhaps if totalitarian regimes are not to be allowed to exist, and people not be allowed to live in abject poverty, there will be no terrorism. At least not as much. But if we have this attitude WE are responsible and not them, we are screwed. I appreciate your comments and I think you may be right about the hate being against the govt. not the people. It is strange though that people, not govt. is most often the target of these guys. |
NOTWMEDDLE 13.07.2005 15:40 |
Ever since 9/11, everyone has gone paranoid all because some Jihad Devil worshippers from Allah. I am sick of terrorists! |
its_a_hard_life 13.07.2005 18:06 |
hahahahahhahahahaa |
mike hunt 13.07.2005 19:10 |
the only thing i'll say is read jingles response, i think he hit the nail on the head, the american and england government are far from perfect. the war in iraq is one big lie. |
Lord Blackadder 13.07.2005 20:09 |
All that don't say this and don't say that is shite. Say what you want. I'm sick of one set of people being allowed to do one thing and the rest of us not being allowed to do anything. Did you guys know that last year during Euro 2004 English people wern't allowed to fly the English flag or the Union Jack incase it offended non-British people. I mean what the fuck is that? We are in Britain. If I want to fly the flag of England in support of our football team then should I not be allowed? If I wanted to fly the English flag any day I should be allowed. If you are offended by the flag of the country you live in then get the fuck out. Everytime a non-Muslim says something to a Muslim that is un-friendly for whatever reason then they are deemed racist, but a Muslim can say whatever they want and they get away with it incase the police get accused of being racist. Seriously, that's what England is like nowadays. A fucked up Government who make up silly rules 'coz they can. But the worst thing is, the best choice for Government is the one in power. They are all shite. I've got myself worked up now. |
doremi 13.07.2005 20:18 |
Lord Blackadder wrote: All that don't say this and don't say that is shite. Say what you want. I'm sick of one set of people being allowed to do one thing and the rest of us not being allowed to do anything. Did you guys know that last year during Euro 2004 English people wern't allowed to fly the English flag or the Union Jack incase it offended non-British people. I mean what the fuck is that? We are in Britain. If I want to fly the flag of England in support of our football team then should I not be allowed? If I wanted to fly the English flag any day I should be allowed. If you are offended by the flag of the country you live in then get the fuck out. Everytime a non-Muslim says something to a Muslim that is un-friendly for whatever reason then they are deemed racist, but a Muslim can say whatever they want and they get away with it incase the police get accused of being racist. Seriously, that's what England is like nowadays. A fucked up Government who make up silly rules 'coz they can. But the worst thing is, the best choice for Government is the one in power. They are all shite. I've got myself worked up now.I hate to tell you, but it's getting almost the exact same way in the USA too. A native USA person cannot say anything that might be construed as anti-muslim as that is racism, but they can make us prisoners in our own homes and tell us what we can or can't do. Here in Maryland, the muslims keep trying to get the state schoolboard to declare some Muslim holiday an OFFICIAL holiday, and that all state public schools should close on that Muslim holiday, because they say it's highly offensive and rascist that public schools only close for Christmas and Easter. (Hey I am Jewish, and those are Christian, but widely accepted American and International holidays, and it does NOT offend me and I do not think it's racist). Get a fucking grip. |
dorahc 13.07.2005 21:55 |
I have to agree with Mr.Jinlges and a few other's responces to this post. I think our government is to blame for everything wrong with America! They are so entwined with each others lives and what other countries are doing, they forget about the important things they should be focusing on. The government is run on nothing but LIES! Bush probably has Osama in a safe place, the little wanker! |
coops 13.07.2005 22:51 |
I think the govt. is to blame coz I don't get shagged as often as I should do and that beer is so expensive and ...... Ever thought that some people hate you just because you are not the same as they are? Its crazy, but I think it,s true. We don't understand it, so we try to rationalize it. We seem to have a run of child murders here in the states. Some people try to figure out how/why a man can abduct 6 year old, rape her and then bury her alive. Was he abused as a kid ? Is he angry? Reasons reasons reasons. Is he just sick and evil? I think some people are evil. It's just difficult to accept that. It seems all these terorist groups have their own reasons, all a little different. Even English nationals are up to it now. What did England do to them but give them a place to live and opportunity. Shame on England. I think it,s coz Leeds FC sucks myself. |
Ms. Bea Haven 13.07.2005 23:09 |
BHM 0271 wrote: ...and the American governments arrogance and disrespect to most things not American...George Bush's arrogance mostly. He looks like a monkey. Ever notice when he was elected he didn't have much of that southern accent...now he sounds like won o dem gud ol boyz |
QueenZeppelin 14.07.2005 01:29 |
I am an American, living in Maryland who is an independed and dislikes almost ALL of Mr. Bush's policies. But I'm going to have to disagree with Brian on a few things. I do agree that the West needs to work on the psychological end of it--actually talking to governments, findinf out and UNDERSTANDING why we are hated and what we can constructively do about it. However, there ARE some militants that DO need to be stamped out. If we work on dialogue and such, we can get the majority of the Muslim world on our side, but not the extremists, or men like Bin Laden. They want to see the downfall of the West, for their decadence and cultural hedgemony. And we are decadent, and we do have a hedgemony. And we need to scale back drastically. But I think it's fair to say that somebody like Bin Laden and other militants will not stop at that. There will ALWAYS be something that they are angry at America and the West for. And these people, these violent, heartless people, need to be stamped out. Not Muslims. But groups like Al-Qaeda. Brian May said we should take the "Nelson Mandela approach." Well, why isn't Bin Laden? He could be taking that approach as well. If he used his power over the people that admire him as well as his creativity, savvy and eloquence (as much as I hate him, he has those traits) he could rally mass support against the treacheries of the West. But does he? No. He and his organization responds with atrocities like 9/11, Madrid and London. I hate Bush, but I support Afghanistan. And even Iraq. |
s.m. 14.07.2005 07:05 |
coops wrote: I think we all get fraustrated because we are afraid a little and do no understand the mentality of cold blooded killers any more than we do people who for example molest and kill children. We need concrete reasons. Accepting that people are just evil is hard.i don´t know why people in america don´t understand that their leaders and theirs politics created bin ladens of this world and not just created them, but trained them also why? because they served a purpuse but now it´s all coming back in this horrible way you just have to take reponsabillity you dont know why this is going on? you dont want to know why, or you just don´t care it´s easier to destroy iraq because of alleged wmd and they still sell you that bullshit over and over again..... everything usa does is for their interest, not for interest of the world you have to re-evaluate things that you are doing around the world bringing down some govermants, whils supporting those who serve you ( saudi arabia pops up ) i guess vietnam didn´t teach your leaders nothing edit usa wanted to bring down saddam usa army liberated kuwait and had a chance to bring down husien they gave word to shiits in iraq and than just left after that saddam killed thousands of shiits, and slaughterd kurds i mean wtf why do you do things that you do interest and we can go back when saddam was ally against ajatollah i mean you created all of those creatures and now you are creating more and now the terror has come to usa and europe soil because of that politics |
coops 14.07.2005 11:30 |
S.M. You are right, sometimes things do come back and haunt us. That happens in out own lives but does it mean we deserve it? Bib Laden was trained and armed to fight the Russian invasion of Afghanistan. I don't see it as being wrong assisting people to protect their country. Who would know the Taliban would gain power and people like Bin Laden become what they are. Finally, at the risk of being redundant, no-one said there were wmd's in Iraq. Try and find direct quotes from Bush or Blair if you can. No Michael Moore does not count. Simply put, we wanted to make sure he had none, he would not let us check and so we went to look for ourselves. Whether you are for or against military action, this is a fact. People need to try a little harder and see beyond "I hate Bush and Blair" and so I will believe anything negative about them no-matter who says it and where the info comes from. One of my favorite presidents was Clinton, and Republicans tried so hard to bring him down a peg or two and non-supporters loved it. Democrats rightly saw this as being nothing but partisn politics. Now the Dems are doing exactly the same thing. Truth or whats right mean nothing to some, it's all about proving a point and bringing the other side down. Good discussion though guys. Those of you who say we need to look at ourselves and understand why we are hated, I would love to hear from you exactly WHAT you think we should do. How do we make terrorists like us and leave us alone? |
gr8kingrat 14.07.2005 11:34 |
Brian is a tool |
s.m. 14.07.2005 14:05 |
coops wrote: You are right, sometimes things do come back and haunt us. That happens in out own lives but does it mean we deserve it?i never said that that should not happen to anyone |
coops 14.07.2005 14:35 |
I know. It was a rhetorical question. May have come accross wrong so sorry. Did not mean to insinuate you did think that. |
NOTWMEDDLE 14.07.2005 17:27 |
I'd rather see Roger Waters as President of the US. he now officially lives in the US! |
Fairy 15.07.2005 05:38 |
coops wrote: Read his comments this morning on his views of how we are of the bad guys ( I should have have known we deserve to die) and wanted to ger a little understanding myself. I live in the USA by the way and despite what he says,...a climate of fear, which, sadly, the U.S.A. is already experiencing...is not true. I think we all get fraustrated because we are afraid a little and do no understand the mentality of cold blooded killers any more than we do people who for example molest and kill children. We need concrete reasons. Accepting that people are just evil is hard. want to see our politicians answer the question 'Why?' Why do people hate us this much? What can we do to change this? It's no use thinking we are dealing with a small bunch of maniacs, as seems to be the popular view, who need to be 'stamped out.' I have a few tips that may help: 1. NEVER say anything that may be even remotly offensive to islam. Do not even show negative news on tv. They hate this. Check out Rushdie or the Dutch filmaker that was murdered. 2. Make music that is only pleasing to god 3. Teach Islam in the schools. If we are evil than we must try to be like them and show we are not. 4.Talking of how we are perceived of a s greedy, how much are you worth Brian? Or is that different? 5. Pay $500 for a barrel of oil. That is what Bin Laden said we should be doing. Sell it to the infidels but make them pay. 6. Take out all westerners from the middle east, no matter who they are or what they do. Laden has stated clearly that we do not belong there. We are the infidel. 7. Continue with humanitarian aid and increase it as much as we can afford. They may hate us but we have to show we are better and continue to send them money. 8. Remove troops from Bosnia. If the slaugher continues, well the terrorists can step in and help. Like they give a damm about their own people anyway. 9.Do NOT develop electric cars. If we do not need oil, these people have NOTHING, and that would be hatefull on our behalf right? Look, I could go on and I respect Brians views, but it is a relativly small percentage of people who want to do us harm. Do you really want to change your way of live out of fear, and hope they leave you alone until the next time they want something. While not perfect, do you really think the USA and England is evil? If so, how could you live there? Must be non-evil places you can be. Lastly, knowing what Sadam was doing to his people (women and children) daily, do you not think it's evil to do nothing? "What a shame, we will do a concert and send money". But they still die. Singing kumbaya and hoping does not make dictators go away and does not relieve most of the worlds suffering. never has, probably never will.Oh, finally a clear, proud answer to hypocrisy!!!! I haven't read the replies to this thread yet. I just wanted to tell you how happy I am to finally see a polite but still strong statement against the hypocrits who I feel are taking over our Western world and are supporting the enemy rather than helping in the cause for peace. We all agree we have many flaws...we all agree love and compassion are wonderful and necessary, but let's get real. Let's not mix up good from evil. Brian proved to be just another face in the crowd of the billionaire celebrities who use beautiful, empty words to appear compassionate and generous. After all, their words mean little to nothing. They must not take decisions anyway. I'm not even sure people like Brian are in good faith. Of course he knows very well that if he was born in those societies he preaches understanding for, he would not even be allowed to express his opinion, let alone to sing about sex, parties, and lead the life he led. I'm tired of this political correctness. I am the victim! And I'm tired. This attitude is just working against us. Fairy |
Fairy 15.07.2005 05:40 |
And I don't know if some people on this board are ignorant or are playing ignorant. The war on terror began AFTER and not BEFORE we (the US and the West) were attacked on Sept 11. |
Fairy 15.07.2005 05:46 |
gr8kingrat wrote: Brian is a toolNo, Brian is a smart guy. The perfect hypocrit. |
Fairy 15.07.2005 06:26 |
BHM 0271 wrote: I think your comment about living in the USA explains a lot, coops. Americans, on the whole (I'm Canadian, with family living in the US), are the most insular people on earth. |
Boy Thomas Raker 15.07.2005 10:37 |
Fairy, using my quote about Americans being insular then mentioning nothing about it is an odd way of making your point. Americans are obsessed with what happens within their borders, not concerned with a world view as other countries are. It doesn't make them bad people, but there is a truth there. It's also a fact that George Bush has proudly identified himself as a war president. What are they in Iraq for? If it's to find WMD or round up terrorists, they're doing an awful job of it. No right minded people can be for terrorists. And no right minded people can be for a bogus war for bogus reasons. |
doremi 15.07.2005 11:33 |
Fairy wrote:coops wrote: Read his comments this morning on his views of how we are of the bad guys ( I should have have known we deserve to die) and wanted to ger a little understanding myself. I live in the USA by the way and despite what he says,...a climate of fear, which, sadly, the U.S.A. is already experiencing...is not true. I think we all get fraustrated because we are afraid a little and do no understand the mentality of cold blooded killers any more than we do people who for example molest and kill children. We need concrete reasons. Accepting that people are just evil is hard. want to see our politicians answer the question 'Why?' Why do people hate us this much? What can we do to change this? It's no use thinking we are dealing with a small bunch of maniacs, as seems to be the popular view, who need to be 'stamped out.' I have a few tips that may help: 1. NEVER say anything that may be even remotly offensive to islam. Do not even show negative news on tv. They hate this. Check out Rushdie or the Dutch filmaker that was murdered. 2. Make music that is only pleasing to god 3. Teach Islam in the schools. If we are evil than we must try to be like them and show we are not. 4.Talking of how we are perceived of a s greedy, how much are you worth Brian? Or is that different? 5. Pay $500 for a barrel of oil. That is what Bin Laden said we should be doing. Sell it to the infidels but make them pay. 6. Take out all westerners from the middle east, no matter who they are or what they do. Laden has stated clearly that we do not belong there. We are the infidel. 7. Continue with humanitarian aid and increase it as much as we can afford. They may hate us but we have to show we are better and continue to send them money. 8. Remove troops from Bosnia. If the slaugher continues, well the terrorists can step in and help. Like they give a damm about their own people anyway. 9.Do NOT develop electric cars. If we do not need oil, these people have NOTHING, and that would be hatefull on our behalf right? Look, I could go on and I respect Brians views, but it is a relativly small percentage of people who want to do us harm. Do you really want to change your way of live out of fear, and hope they leave you alone until the next time they want something. While not perfect, do you really think the USA and England is evil? If so, how could you live there? Must be non-evil places you can be. Lastly, knowing what Sadam was doing to his people (women and children) daily, do you not think it's evil to do nothing? "What a shame, we will do a concert and send money". But they still die. Singing kumbaya and hoping does not make dictators go away and does not relieve most of the worlds suffering. never has, probably never will.Oh, finally a clear, proud answer to hypocrisy!!!! I haven't read the replies to this thread yet. I just wanted to tell you how happy I am to finally see a polite but still strong statement against the hypocrits who I feel are taking over our Western world and are supporting the enemy rather than helping in the cause for peace. We all agree we have many flaws...we all agree love and compassion are wonderful and necessary, but let's get real. Let's not mix up good from evil. Brian proved to be just another face in the crowd of the billionaire celebrities who use beautiful, empty words to appear compassionate and generous. After all, their words mean little to nothing. They must not take decisions anyway. I'm not even sure people like Brian are in good faith. Of course he knows very well that if he was born in those societies he preaches understanding for, he would not even be allowed to express his opinion, let alone to sing about sex, parties, and lead the life he led. I'm tired of this political correctness. I am the victim! And I'm tired. This attitude is just working against us. Fairy |
coops 15.07.2005 11:44 |
Certainly there is no one answer and I do feel anger that we are put in a position by a few people where we need to act to defend ourselves. I agree with what you said about Brian and am glad he was able to express himself because I have been listening to him and loving his music for 25 years or so, and believe he is the worlds best rock guitarist. Sad though when, as you say, the victims are made out to be the bad guys and the murderers the victims. You can blame the govt. but half the people in this country voted the guy in, so perhaps only half the country is to blame. We went to war in the mid-90's to prevent genocide against Muslims in Europe. God knows how much money we send around the world to aid Muslims when they need it, and I agree with helping them and think the vast majority of Muslims appreciate this and do not agree with terorism. Brian made a comment about countries hating u. I do not believe this. Some people within a country and perhaps even the Govt. but not the entire nation. Perhaps I am wrong, I hope not. |
kdj2hot 15.07.2005 12:48 |
Sadam was by all accounts a bad guy but the Iraqi people were much safer under him than they are now. He ruled with an iron fist and the laws in that country were harsh but law abiding citizens were safe. That's not the case now. I'm from a quote unquote red state, for those of you not from the USA that means mostly conservative, republican state. Hell I'm in Texas lol most people upnorth don't think it gets any redder here [not really true because in Dallas John Kerry received 70 percent of the vote if my memory is correct, it's pretty liberal for the most part]. Anyway my point, this war in iraq is a crock of shams when you think about it. Let's stay on one topic and seriously think about it in relation to the war on terror. Sadam was not a threat, he really had no motive to attack the USA, because he had enough sense to know he couldnt win and the USA would have tons of world support if he made a move like that. He wasn't a friend of Al-queda, he kept the different factions of islam in check as well. More importantly the people had power and water for the most part. My major point is here, Al Queada were the major threat at the time the war was started by far. So why would you the 10's of billions of dollars away from destroying the real terrorists to create another problem. Cause now they only made Iraq a mecca for terrorism. I have a perfect analogy for it I'm gonna put in all caps, THAT'S LIKE HAVING A GUN SHOT WOUND IN YOUR RIGHT ARM BUT INSTEAD OF DRIVING TO THE HOSPITAL OR CALLING AN AMBULANCE YOU PUT A FRIGGIN' GUN TO YOUR LEFT ARM AND PULL THE TRIGGER. The money that went towards Iraq should've been IMO put towards recruiting and training special forces mostly to send them out all around the world to break up terror cells. Thta would've been a more effective war on terror and probably would've severely crippled all terrorism around the world. I'm talking about if all the billions put in Iraq were used for that purpose. Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 and terror but the Bush administration is trying to make it seem like that. |
Fairy 15.07.2005 12:49 |
Arlene, what can you expect from beings who used their own children as human shields? What difference do a few dead children make? It's for the cause! ...... And btw, the Organization Save the Children commented the news saying that next time the Americans should be more careful and should distribute candy to the children in a safer place. Again this is blaming the wrong side. |
Fairy 15.07.2005 12:58 |
BHM 0271 wrote: Fairy, using my quote about Americans being insular then mentioning nothing about it is an odd way of making your point. |
Fairy 15.07.2005 13:43 |
kdj2hot wrote: Sadam was by all accounts a bad guy but the Iraqi people were much safer under him than they are now. He ruled with an iron fist and the laws in that country were harsh but law abiding citizens were safe. |
coops 15.07.2005 14:39 |
KDJ2HOT, regardless of your political views the statements you made are really silly. Amnesty say that 75,0000 to 100,0000 went missing every year in Iraq, and many more were systematically tortured including women and children. Try telling them they had it better. Tell the thousands of Kurds who were gassed by Sadam that they were better off running for their gas masks than they are now. Western goods (such evil icons of greedy western culture such as satellite dishes ) are readily available so Iraqi,s can see what is going on around the world are available. Iraq may soon start to take advantage of the sale of their own oil, rather than it going into the pockets of a few. Medicine and food available at a price people can afford. But just a few, mostly non-iraqi people want to ruin it so they can go back to the good old days you seem to think were so special. And please get your facts right. I have posted on this forum (with no response by the way)for someone to send a link with a direct quote from Bush or Blair saying Iraq had wmd,s and were going to use them against the USA. We gave him the option to allow us to look or we would come in and look for ourselves. I don't think he would start a war with us, but I think given the opportunity he would sell weapons, or give them, to those who wouuld. If you disagree with the war fine. Just don't invent stuff to back up an argument. Hold on, your Michael Moore aren,t you? |
coops 15.07.2005 14:42 |
By the way, you are assuming I guess that countries will allow us in to find and kill terrorists? If they say no and you know they are there what do you do? We know that Al quaida trained in Iraq. Perhaps not by Sadam, but he tolerated them. |
kdj2hot 15.07.2005 16:01 |
coops wrote: KDJ2HOT, regardless of your political views the statements you made are really silly. Amnesty say that 75,0000 to 100,0000 went missing every year in Iraq, and many more were systematically tortured including women and children. Try telling them they had it better. Tell the thousands of Kurds who were gassed by Sadam that they were better off running for their gas masks than they are now. Western goods (such evil icons of greedy western culture such as satellite dishes ) are readily available so Iraqi,s can see what is going on around the world are available. Iraq may soon start to take advantage of the sale of their own oil, rather than it going into the pockets of a few. Medicine and food available at a price people can afford. But just a few, mostly non-iraqi people want to ruin it so they can go back to the good old days you seem to think were so special. And please get your facts right. I have posted on this forum (with no response by the way)for someone to send a link with a direct quote from Bush or Blair saying Iraq had wmd,s and were going to use them against the USA. We gave him the option to allow us to look or we would come in and look for ourselves. I don't think he would start a war with us, but I think given the opportunity he would sell weapons, or give them, to those who wouuld. If you disagree with the war fine. Just don't invent stuff to back up an argument. Hold on, your Michael Moore aren,t you?One inacurracy in your post is Al Qeada training in Iraq, that's not true. Saddam Hussein knew exactly what was going on in his country and Al Qeada didnot train there. The 100,000 missing a yr seems like an extremely bloated figure. But those things are neither here are there nor were the point of my post. The point was Iraq had nothing to do with the war on terror or 9-11 and only served to create another tear in the fabric before the other tear was sewn up. There's atrocvities going on elsewhere and Saddam definitely wasn't the biggest tyrant on the planet [in debates people tend to twist words so let me point I never said he wasnt a tyrrant or was a good guy, I said he wasnt the biggest],. I will say that any missing Iraqi's or kurds gassed after the first attack on Iraq were caused by people who opposed him, if you stayed quiet, abided laws, lived your lives without question then you would be safe. That's not the case now, now it's open season on everywhere. I never said Saddam was right, he definitely wasn't IMO but it wasn't total chaos like it is now. But Let's not forget the point, that's why I added the part on staying on one topic in my first post, the point is Iraq had nothing to do with 9-11 or the real war on terror. Or put in a nice saying, Iraq was attacked before the USA had all their eggs in one basket. |
coops 15.07.2005 18:23 |
Interesting how you seem to want to believe Sadam before anything else. But let me explain one thing to you- no one said Iraq was responsible for 911. Okay? Try to understand that over the last 20 years there have been multiple attacks on western countries and property that took thousands of lives. Then there was 911. This was big scale, and here in the USA. If you are in charge, you would probably think this is not the final attack. there could be one tomorrow, next week, even bigger and with gas or biological weapons. Who knows? Do you wait and see? You might, I don't know. Where might a terrorist get such weapons? Well we know Sadam had them and he keeps blocking inspectors- lets give him the ultimatum the United Nations gave him but failed to enforce. Sadam refused. He thought that because he had France, Germany and Russia in his pocket he was safe. We gave a second ultimatum. He refused and so we went in. One last thing to think about. What if Iraq held democratic elections and that country became prosperous? Over the years people in Iran, Syria etc wanted the same thing (the people fighting in Iraq now are from these countries trying to prevent peace and democracy) like Lebanon are working at now, and even Palestine and Israel are working hard. When these countries have peace and freedom and prosperity they will not tolerate terrorism, though they will probably still be around. I know you want this but HATE to think it may happen because of the bush administration. Hey it may not, but you gotta try. The world is getting smaller my friend and just like your community does not tolerate drug pushers, the world does not need to tolerate the Sadams of the world. Yes there are more but you start somewhere and hope it snowballs. I may be wrong but I believe people want the same things you and I take for granted. You think people would rather go back to Sadam than have a chance at real freedom, I don,t because I would not want to live like that. Why should I think anybody else would? Would you? |
kdj2hot 15.07.2005 18:51 |
coops wrote: Interesting how you seem to want to believe Sadam before anything else. But let me explain one thing to you- no one said Iraq was responsible for 911. Okay? Try to understand that over the last 20 years there have been multiple attacks on western countries and property that took thousands of lives. Then there was 911. This was big scale, and here in the USA. If you are in charge, you would probably think this is not the final attack. there could be one tomorrow, next week, even bigger and with gas or biological weapons. Who knows? Do you wait and see? You might, I don't know. Where might a terrorist get such weapons? Well we know Sadam had them and he keeps blocking inspectors- lets give him the ultimatum the United Nations gave him but failed to enforce. Sadam refused. He thought that because he had France, Germany and Russia in his pocket he was safe. We gave a second ultimatum. He refused and so we went in. One last thing to think about. What if Iraq held democratic elections and that country became prosperous? Over the years people in Iran, Syria etc wanted the same thing (the people fighting in Iraq now are from these countries trying to prevent peace and democracy) like Lebanon are working at now, and even Palestine and Israel are working hard. When these countries have peace and freedom and prosperity they will not tolerate terrorism, though they will probably still be around. I know you want this but HATE to think it may happen because of the bush administration. Hey it may not, but you gotta try. The world is getting smaller my friend and just like your community does not tolerate drug pushers, the world does not need to tolerate the Sadams of the world. Yes there are more but you start somewhere and hope it snowballs. I may be wrong but I believe people want the same things you and I take for granted. You think people would rather go back to Sadam than have a chance at real freedom, I don,t because I would not want to live like that. Why should I think anybody else would? Would you?I was talking about them tying Iraq to the war on terror that was inspired or given a jolt based o the events of sept. 11th 2001. There are some ignorant people who still think there was a connection even though the 9-11 comission found none but thats due to misinformation that was spread from conservative extremists. Their are people who still think Mr. Hussein and Bin Laden were buddies and Saddam had weapons of mass destructions. Stonewalling inspectors, to me, wasn't a good manuever from him especially since he had no weapons. That seems like pure arrogance to me but all resources weren't pursued and the Preseident of the USA jumped the gun before he was at his last resort which war is supposed to be. That combined with the fact that all the eggs werent in their baskets from battling terrorist who don't represent a country and Saddam turning out not to have anything he wasn't supposed to makes the war a bad decision for what it was originally supposed to be. About democracy I think the most vocal people don't want our form of democracy, you're thinking about democracy in terms of the USA I think. Keep in mind that over there many are extremely religion and will not want much westerniozed. Not saying they want what saddam brought to the table either. Chances are they will vote in religious clerics who may turn out to despise the west as well. But they should have the right to do that, the question and point is if the war in iraq was what it was originally sold to eb and it wasn't. The money pumped in to it would've been better served fighting terror cells without an official government or army. I assume the Bush administration the red folk states would understand the war better if it had a face, a real country to focus on, like iraq when iraq had very lil to do with it and posed very lil eminent threat which Bush said it did. |
coops 15.07.2005 22:40 |
1.What other resources would you have pursued? Keep in mind that 12 years of UN resolutions were not enforced and now it seems we know why, because they were all on the take. 2. Some people probably still think the world is flat and the moon made of cheese. Does not mean that they were lied to. 3.Don't forger about afghanistan 4.Don,t forget about Libya giving up tons of chemical weapons after we invaded Iraq, thinking that they may be next. 5. By democracy I mean freedon, and that is not an American concept, it is a basic human need. The right to express your beliefs on politics, religion or anything else, to vote the people in or out of Govt. as you see fit and have an opportunity to make what you can out of your life. By the way, I am English and have lived in the USA for 17 years now. I worked my way through college and am a healthcare professional. I have a large house on a few acres, we each have a car and more toys than I can count. My life is wonderful and everyday I am thankful for it. I could never have this in England. I may be seen as a materialist and perhaps by definition I am, and perhaps people my hate me for that. They can kiss my ass. I worked for it and given the chance, don't tell me that less fortunate people would not want it to. Why am I telling you this? Because I am an average working person here. Some better off, some less so. But people want me dead because I belong to a country that "uses" and "abuses" others. Let me tell you, when the world need help who do they turn to first? And why? Because they know we give thats why. And some are still not happy. Americans are always prepared to give but I am sick when I hear Europeans say "you onlt gave 30 billion to Africa for HIV teaching " when you gave none. Or " I know you gave 4 billion for the tsunami victims but it took you 3 days to decide". Never happy. Jelousy I think. |
kingogre 16.07.2005 16:51 |
The saddest thing with the recent London bombings, apart from people dying and getting injured off course, i feel is that the G8 meeting was assembled to discuss the problems in Africa and the third world. After the bombings these discussions were dropped immediately in favour of "if youre not with us youre against us" etc rhetoric. |
coops 16.07.2005 19:08 |
I think general agreement was made to write off all foreign debt owed by African countries but what then?any of these countries are in the situation they are in because of govts. that could care less about their people. Problems are compounded by drought etc I am all for writing off debt, but these guys need to make some changes and not get into the exact same position in the future. |
Fairy 17.07.2005 06:20 |
kdj2hot, I find a bit funny, or maybe a bit irritating, your use of the term "law abiding" referred to Saddam Iraq. It's like saying that a woman can be spared being battered by her husband if she will work like Cinderella all day, ask no questions, own no money or property, fuck whenever the man wants to, accept his husband's bigamy, and more... |
Fairy 17.07.2005 06:22 |
I would now like a straightforward, simple answer to this question: if Saddam had no weapons of mass distruction, why didn't he allow the UN inspectors in right away? Was that only because his pride would be hurt? |
Fairy 17.07.2005 06:29 |
coops wrote: |
kingogre 17.07.2005 08:06 |
There are many answers to why saddam didnt allow the inspections. But with so little information that we have at hand today it can only be specaulations. First of all, he did allow them, but didnt give access to some of the places were weapons of mass destruction were allegedly stored. However most of the inspectors that had followed the work that had been done in Iraq since the Gulf war said that it was unlikely that there were any weapons, but that they needed more time to find out for certain. However, USA didnt want the inspectors to have more time and began the war instead. Why was Saddam so un-cooperative? First of all it is hard to understand someone like him, obviously he doesnt think like most of us. He could have felt that his pride was hurt or he didnt trust the motives of the UN inspectors or something like that. Many in the Iraqi government also felt that a war would come anyway and that, since many of the places were the inspectors would go were important strategic points for their defence, allowing the inspectors there would mean giving up vital secrets of their defence. |
Fairy 17.07.2005 08:43 |
kingogre, if the police had a mandate to search your house and you didn't allow them to search specific rooms, would the police just say good-bye and go away just because, well, you may think differently from most citizens and because your pride may have been hurt? If the police was so "sensitive to people's moods" no criminal would be caught, no evidence found. Also, is 12 years a short waiting? |
coops 17.07.2005 09:02 |
I agree pretty much with what you said. I never know what is going on in my wifes head let alone Sadams. You said the USA did not want the inspectors to have more time and so went ahead with the war anyway. Are you saying that Sadam finally agreed to allow them in? After 12 years of playing with inspectors (12 years not weeks) and two pretty serious ultimatums how much longer would you have given him to decide? 3 months? 20 years? If YOU are charged with protecting a country and do not have the luxury of hindsight and THINK Sadam MAY have wmd,s he might sell or give to someone, it,s a mighty big chance to take. I would bet that the people who despise him so much now would be the first to hate him all over again if he did nothing and we were hit big-time by gas or some organism dropped into times square on new years eve that made it,s way from north Africa. Look at how much stuff Libya had and gave up. The cry would be " Bush, you thought he may have had wmd, and you did nothing you bastard and now people are dead". You know this would be true. I saw the same thing with Clinton. Poor guy was gret but in the eyes of some could not do a thing right. One indescretion ( well he was only caught once) and he was crucified. I don,t know that Sadam thought war was inevitable either. That saviour to all the worlds problems (per Gore and Kerry) the UN were on the take for 12 years and many of them got very rich thanks to Sadam. Iraq may have have gotten word from many of these guys that he was safe and the UN would never sanction an attack and the US under world pressure would not back the threats. He also wanted to save face I am sure and so he put civilians and children around military targets. Nice. Sadam is no victim here. The Iraqi people are t not rising up to kick out the troops, though the sooner we leave the better. They know they will be better off in the long run, and they know these people causing all the misery over there are for the most part, NON-IRAQI. The biggest threat for guys like Syria is that their people want the same freedoms as the Iraqis are working for. If they can make it fail in Iraq, they too are safer. The world I think has a responsibility to not allow that to happen. Cheers |
kingogre 17.07.2005 16:20 |
Fairy, im nor sure that I understand what you are asking completely, but I will try and make my point a bit clearer.:) First of all I was not in any way trying to defend how Saddam acted only saying that it is hard to understand how a person like he(tyrant, dictator, psycopath whatever) reasons because he doesnt think or act like other people do. All of what I described happened within the months before the war. Since what and why it happened is very complex off course it wasnt exactly as I described it. After the Gulf war the Iraqi military capacity was cut and the factories and storerooms for wmd that Iraq had previously were put out of use, destroyed and monitored. Many of the people that were involved in this work said clearly when the second inspections began in 2002 that it was highly unlikely that Iraq had developed new weapons or that there were any left. Eventually the inspectors would have had access to all the areas, the Iraqi government was not very cooperative with the inspectors though. That is probably why the inspectors wanted more time for the investigation. One reason for the uncooperativeness could have been that the Iraqi officials thought that the inspectors were spying on their defence secrets to give information to the Americans that they would use in the war that they thought would come anyway. Still, however, one gets the feeling that the wether saddam had weapons of mass destruction was only one of the reasons for the war. The oil is always a major cause for the western involvement in the middle east. There were perhaps personal feelings since it is said that Saddam once wanted to murder George Bush senior. Perhaps George W. wanted to finish the job(removing Saddam) that his dad couldnt in the Gulf war. But I dont think anyone will know for sure what happened and why in a very long time. I feel that we are straying a bit from topic though...;) |
kingogre 17.07.2005 16:36 |
coops, you have many good points and I agree with you.The question of Iraq is very hard to solve and it is hard to say what is right or wrong. It was no doubt right to get rid of Saddam, but was it right to violate the United Nations and international law when they did it. Could it have been handled better to avoid what is happening now? (It can easily seem that the american government werent really prepared that many people, and not only extremists and terrorists, in Iraq would see the americans as occupiers and not as liberators.) What should be done now, should they leave should they say? etc. It is hard to say that anyone is the bad guy(except for some people and organisations though) and anyone is the good guy really. The whole situation is really very much of a catch 22. What I think we all can agree on here is that what the Iraqi people deserve is to live in peace and have freedom and democracy. It would be the best thing that has ever happened for this entire region IMO and there is a chance for that to happen now that Saddam is gone. Cheers |