| greaserkat 20.07.2012 10:18 |
What is going on with society, and what is going on with Colorado too... link |
| GratefulFan 20.07.2012 10:49 |
In a surreal twist one of the victims who died was also present in Toronto's Eaton Centre when a gunman opened fire in a food court in gang related violence earlier this year. She blogged about it here: link |
| pittrek 20.07.2012 12:16 |
This is a seriously f***ed up world |
| Micrówave 20.07.2012 12:28 |
Before anybody starts wondering...
Colorado allows a person to carry a firearm in a vehicle, loaded or unloaded, if its use is for lawful protection of such person or another's person or property. [C.R.S. 18-12-105(2)] Colorado law also allows a person to possess a handgun in a dwelling, place of business, or automobile. However, you cannot carry the weapon concealed on or about your person while transporting it into your home, business, hotel room, etc. Local jurisdictions may not enact laws that restrict a person's ability to travel with a weapon. [C.R.S. 18-12-105.6] The Act permits the nationwide carrying of concealed handguns by qualified current and retired law enforcement officers and amends the Gun Control Act of 1968 (Pub. L. 90-618, 82 Stat. 1213) to exempt qualified current and retired law enforcement officers from state and local laws prohibiting the carry of concealed firearms.Of course, if this would have happened in Texas, the guy would not have gotten as many rounds off and would be dead. |
| GratefulFan 20.07.2012 12:50 |
An old friend of mine got a Colorado CCW in 2006. All he had to do was take a class and not be criminally insane. He carried concealed virtually everywhere and all the time in his suburb near Denver, and throughout the state. Unless something has changed since 2006, it's not that hard to have a gun on your person in Colorado. The surprise factor, the darkness, the delayed reaction in realizing it was a real attack, and a large panicked crowd were surely far greater factors in the fatalities than the fact that there were potentially fewer heroes to attempt a surgical takeout in a packed, frantic theatre in the dark. |
| Micrówave 20.07.2012 13:02 |
No, you probably couldn't have saved too many fatalities, but we wouldn't have to see (and pay for) this guy geting released after 7 years of "therapy"... which is bound to happen. Better yet, maybe we can get Amenesty International to do a profile about his rehabilitation in a couple of years and how he was unfairly treated by the justice system. |
| GratefulFan 20.07.2012 13:15 |
Unless this man had a genuine psychotic break, which is typically not a factor in these kinds of attacks, I don't think Colorado is the state you want to be in if you're hoping for delicate treatment for the mass murder of innocents by firearm. |
| catqueen 20.07.2012 13:32 |
Micrówave wrote: No, you probably couldn't have saved too many fatalities, but we wouldn't have to see (and pay for) this guy geting released after 7 years of "therapy"... which is bound to happen.Better yet, maybe we can get Amenesty International to do a profile about his rehabilitation in a couple of years and how he was unfairly treated by the justice system.Don't think i've heard of many situations like this where someone only got 7 years. And surely if there is genuine mental illness causing it, then therapy/medication/treatment is the right option? What good would just prison do if the person is ill? I don't know the US legislation around criminal insanity, but here it's fairly tough to get through the criteria to get a not guilty on the basis of insanity verdict. |
| tero! 48531 20.07.2012 15:12 |
Micrówave wrote: Of course, if this would have happened in Texas, the guy would not have gotten as many rounds off and would be dead.Let's think about this for a moment... There are hundreds of people in a dark movie theatre, and suddenly somebody throws a smoke grenade and starts shooting around at everybody. What happens when a few dozen random members of the audience stand up and start wawing their guns around? Who knows who's an attacker, and and who's acting in self defense? How many more innocent people will end up in the crossfire, and how many people acting in self defense would be shot at? If you're being fired at and the guy next to gets his gun out, how do you know who he's going to target? How does the police know it? |
| Micrówave 20.07.2012 15:38 |
Oh that's right... Since I said Texas, that meant a bunch of people pulling out pistols? You guys are precious! Need I mention Colorado's lax guns laws as posted above? Just as easy to get one there as Texas. This isn't about shooting back. This is really about preventing this kind of crap from happening in the future. Not the proper treatment of the poor, mentally disturbed (or not) shooter. |
| Holly2003 20.07.2012 15:44 |
Lots of eye-witness acounts of the shooting but none of the witnesses bothered to say if the film was any good or not. Talk about inconsiderate. |
| tero! 48531 20.07.2012 17:03 |
I guess the shooter was one of those fans who were threatening to kill the critics who don't like the movie? |
| GratefulFan 20.07.2012 19:32 |
Holly2003 made me laugh: Lots of eye-witness acounts of the shooting but none of the witnesses bothered to say if the film was any good or not. Talk about inconsiderate.I know! I bet the poor victim who reviewed the Eaton Centre shooting would have mentioned it for sure. |
| YourValentine 21.07.2012 03:06 |
Microwave - what are your suggestions to help preventing such incidents in the future? Certainly we will disagree about how the justice system should deal with criminals but I did not understand your posting concerning gun laws etc. Do you think that stricter gun laws could prevent such shootings? |
| john bodega 21.07.2012 09:53 |
I actually don't have a logical reason for this (and I wasn't that excited about the movie to begin with) but I'm not even sure I'd want to watch it now. *shrug* I was already ambivalent about it anyway. I figure I'd wait until someone releases a version that's just Anne Hathaway's scenes. So I can beat off. |
| Micrówave 23.07.2012 10:15 |
YourValentine wrote: Microwave - what are your suggestions to help preventing such incidents in the future? Certainly we will disagree about how the justice system should deal with criminals but I did not understand your posting concerning gun laws etc. Do you think that stricter gun laws could prevent such shootings? No, I am stating that (once again) gun laws did NOTHING to affect what happened here. And now posting his picture and talking to former friends and family to hear about what a nice guy he was all weekend? Really? That will certainly discourage the next idiot from doing something like this. |
| The Real Wizard 23.07.2012 10:31 |
Micrówave wrote: I am stating that (once again) gun laws did NOTHING to affect what happened here.There are more gun fatalities in the USA per capita than any other developed country worldwide, by far. The USA is the only country in the developed world where you can buy a gun at the corner store. The entire civilized outside world sees a correlation, but I have little doubt that you won't. |
| Micrówave 23.07.2012 11:40 |
Real Wizard.... Step off. In Switzerland, according to 2001 statistics, it is noted that there are about 420,000 assault rifles stored at private homes, mostly SIG SG 550 types. Additionally, there are some 320,000 semi-auto rifles and military pistols exempted from military service in private possession, all selective-fire weapons having been converted to semi-automatic operation only. In addition, there are several hundred thousand other semi-automatic small arms classified as carbines. The total number of firearms in private homes is estimated minimally at 1.2 million to 3 million. So to debate the rest of your point would be pointless, seeing that you have your facts confused..... again. No offense, but you really need to stay out of these kind of debates. You definitely do NOT represent the entire civilized world. Wake up, and see the picture below. That is a common site in Switzerland. Should I research the rest of the world for you, since you seem to make this stuff up as you go? |
| Micrówave 23.07.2012 11:42 |
The following cannot be done in the U.S., legally... |
| emrabt 23.07.2012 12:10 |
you should probably post what the population is or a percent of somekind. |
| Micrówave 23.07.2012 12:12 |
Total Firearm related death rates: South Africa 74.57 Columbia 51.77 El Salvador 50.36 Jamaica 47.44 Honduras 46.70 Guatemala 38.52 Swaziland 37.16 Brazil 14.15 Estonia 12.74 Panama 12.92 Mexico 12.07 United States 10.27 You have to be able to interpret data, not just read from one list. |
| Micrówave 23.07.2012 12:16 |
emrabt wrote: you should probably post what the population is or a percent of somekind. I'm not sure why that matters. Percentage of gun owners has nothing to do with this shooting. Unfortunately, a lot of people think if there's no legal way of obtaining hand guns, no one will get shot... and that's just not true. It's fairly easy to obtain a handgun in just about every part of the world. |
| tero! 48531 23.07.2012 12:32 |
Micrówave wrote: The following cannot be done in the U.S., legally...So where was the picture taken, and is it a real weapon? (I assume you know it, or your message would be pointless...) |
| Micrówave 23.07.2012 12:33 |
It was taken in Switzerland link Now, if I wanna play your game, I guess we could debate it the gun was real or not, or if the store was real or not, etc. I would think it quite bizarre to go thru all the trouble of staging that photo. |
| greaserkat 23.07.2012 13:05 |
Micrówave wrote: Total Firearm related death rates: South Africa 74.57 Columbia 51.77 El Salvador 50.36 Jamaica 47.44 Honduras 46.70 Guatemala 38.52 Swaziland 37.16 Brazil 14.15 Estonia 12.74 Panama 12.92 Mexico 12.07 United States 10.27 You have to be able to interpret data, not just read from one list.How many of thos from the list are 1st world contries, or developed countries? My count is just 1, USA. Maybe 2 if you count South Africa, but I think they might still be 2nr world country |
| Micrówave 23.07.2012 13:20 |
Point? Unless you mean killing is okay in 2nd and 3rd world nations. |
| Holly2003 23.07.2012 13:46 |
Micrówave wrote: Point?Unless you mean killing is okay in 2nd and 3rd world nations.Only if the 2nd world is Mongo and the 3rd is The Planet of the Apes. |
| The Real Wizard 23.07.2012 13:49 |
Micrówave wrote: Point?Unless you mean killing is okay in 2nd and 3rd world nations.No, what people are trying to point out is that the US is the only country in the developed world that sells guns at the corner store, and also happens to have the most gun violence per capita of those 25 or so most civilized countries. Your statistics did not pertain to the developed world. Is that you being proud that US gun violence isn't quite as bad as it is in Colombia? I know you always hold your country in high regard, but with this one you've really raised the bar. Brazil is the only country from your list that can compete, but since they have only been free from military dictatorship since 1985, I think they are allowed a bit of leeway. Switzerland is the only civilized country that is remotely comparable in terms of gun possession, but that is largely because they have universal conscription. Gun violence is not prevalent like it is in the US, and that really is the central point here. |
| Micrówave 23.07.2012 15:17 |
What "corner store" are you referring to? Because that's just not true and you know it. We don't stock them next to the cigarettes at 7-11. The quickest way? There is a 5 day process where a background/felony check is conducted. However what is going on in Bordertowns along the Texas/Mexican border is probably, right now, the most violent place to be in the world right now. That has nothing to do with guns being "legal" in the U.S. Those guns are not obtained "from the corner store"... they are illegal. Neither does the shooting in Colorado. They were not legally obtained weapons. Are you saying that where you live it is impossible to illegally obtain a firearm? If so, we should all move there. Unfortunately it's not, and that's what you fail to recognize when you make your flippant "at the corner store" comment. |
| The Real Wizard 23.07.2012 16:17 |
Well done - you spotted hyperbole. But the reality is, it is easier to obtain a gun in the US than anywhere else in the civilized world. There are 140,000 gun dealers in the US. No other country comes close. Combine that with the "right to bear arms" being part of the national discourse, and voila, gun violence galore. Or do you have a better explanation as to why the US has the most gun violence in the civilized world? |
| Holly2003 23.07.2012 16:40 |
Worth reading: link |
| Holly2003 23.07.2012 16:43 |
Holly2003 wrote:A map of Planet Mongo, yesterday: linkMicrówave wrote: Point?Unless you mean killing is okay in 2nd and 3rd world nations.Only if the 2nd world is Mongo and the 3rd is The Planet of the Apes. Most violence takes place in Ming's name. |
| The Real Wizard 23.07.2012 21:00 |
Holly2003 wrote: Worth reading: linkVery enlightening. It's probably a bit of all ten things. And there are probably even more things they didn't think of. Rarely do things actually end up as tens. Like George Carlin said ... "the eleven commandments? Get the fuck out of here!" |
| tero! 48531 24.07.2012 02:40 |
Micrówave wrote: It was taken in Switzerlandlink, if I wanna play your game, I guess we could debate it the gun was real or not, or if the store was real or not, etc. I would think it quite bizarre to go thru all the trouble of staging that photo.Okay. Now, I suppose you have read the Wikipedia article about Switzerland? The one where it says that 99% of the population aren't allowed to possess the ammunition for these weapons, had their previous state-issued ammunition retrieved, and any ammunition purchased at a shooting range is used at the shooting range? The point here is that these guns aren't used for shooting at home, nor CAN they be used for shooting at home. They are only being stored there. The statistic you posted (from Wikipedia) states that one out of every 10,000 Americans were shot to death in the years 2004-2006. In 2006 in Switzerland (just BEFORE the ammunition was retrieved from homes) Switzerland had 34 cases of people killed or attempted to be killed with a firearm which gives a rate of one out of 200,000 (20 times better than the USA). What we see here is that even though the number of guns doesn't directly tell us how violent a country is, some countries are more worried about loaded guns at home than others. For Switzerland it was easy to handle this by retrieving 99% of the state-issued ammunition, but I don't see how the USA can improve its statistics without getting rid of the guns at home altogether? |
| Micrówave 24.07.2012 15:12 |
Well done - you spotted hyperbole. But the reality is, it is easier to obtain a gun in the US than anywhere else in the civilized world. There are 140,000 gun dealers in the US. No other country comes close.Illegal hand guns and such do NOT come from gun dealers. Combine that with the "right to bear arms" being part of the national discourse, and voila, gun violence galore.I think I may understand why you hate the US so much. You're mad that we seceeded and then succeeded you as a world power in a few years. The "national discourse"? You mean the 'Bill Of Rights'? Yes, and I'm sure you hate our constitution as well. Or do you have a better explanation as to why the US has the most gun violence in the civilized world?Yes, actually I do. There are more "civilized" people living here than any other "civilized nation"... by quite a bit. That's why there's more "gun violence". But, there is much more "bomb violence" in the UK than there is here... and a lot fewer people living there. Does that mean that an American likes to shoot people, while a Brit would rather take out the whole block? |
| Micrówave 24.07.2012 15:22 |
Tero wrote: For Switzerland it was easy to handle this by retrieving 99% of the state-issued ammunitionYes, and it's quite easy to obtain illegal ammunation over there as well. but I don't see how the USA can improve its statistics without getting rid of the guns at home altogether?"Getting rid of the guns at home altogether' will not stop this from happening. But it would increase the rate of burglaries and car jackings and other "gun violence" related activities. "getting rid of the" booze (prohibition) "at home altogether" did not stop it from flowing. It only created a larger criminal enterprise. Also, "getting rid of the" crack "at home altogether" will not stop it from being a problem in the community. "getting rid of" pornography "at home altogether" will not stop it from being distributed. "getting rid of" a certain album "at home altogether" will not stop it from being listened to. "getting rid of" a queenzone troll "at home altogether" will not stop them from posting. |
| The Real Wizard 24.07.2012 21:24 |
Micrówave wrote: Yes, actually I do. There are more "civilized" people living here than any other "civilized nation"... by quite a bit. That's why there's more "gun violence".Per capita, you are just plain wrong. The data that you provided even confirms that. |
| Saint Jiub 24.07.2012 21:59 |
Why does one need an assault weapon, or drum ammunition with 100 rounds? To defend their home? Fortunately that drum jammed or there would be more dead. He bought everything legally because he did not have a criminal record ... and none of the internet sales were immediately trackable by law enforcement. I can see owning a gun for self defence, but it is just too easy to buy an arsenal. |
| YourValentine 25.07.2012 01:54 |
I do not believe that gun laws can explain such incredible outbursts of violence. We might discuss gun laws in connection with gang wars or such but these inexplicable individual killings cannot be explained by them imo. Many factors must come together to enable a person to commit such a senseless crime. What can we do to prevent all this violence and hatred? Which kinds of role models do we actually give young people? The message we give young people is one of "survival of the fittest" rather than "love your neighbour". Look at our politicians and the lack of respect towards the opponent. Look at the economy and how big parts of the people are left behind in favour of the profit of a few. Look at our nations and how we "solve" problems with armies and violence. Recently I spoke with friends about the movies we saw and books we read as kids and how that has changed. We loved the hero stories when the heroes fought for the weak and poor - Robin Hood, Sandokan, Winnetou. Today kids play killing games and games you can only win when you destroy as many competitors as you can. In school they do not get extra credit for helping other students, instead they learn very early that they have no chance in life if they are not on top of the performance. As a result we have bullying, suicides, shootings. School and computer games cannot be blamed for the shooting but the whole society must look into a mirror and wonder what we do to the future of our countries if we do not change around and stop to make profit the measure of everything. There must be a place in society for everybody, not just the "elite" and young people must grow up with a feeling of belonging and security. On CNN I read an article that pointed out that violence is almost exclusively committed by young men while women are usually not violent at all. Certainly we must ask which message we give young males to make that happen. |
| john bodega 25.07.2012 05:44 |
More gun laws wouldn't prevent gun related homicide. I think the average toting American is a fool for thinking it's a good idea to have a gun. And I think that the 'if they didn't have guns, they'd just get knives!' approach is a lot of hooey. Honestly, I'd rather have someone come at me with a knife than a gun. I'd still be screwed because I'm not physically virtuous, but that's beside the point. Having said all that, changes to gun ownership laws won't stop one-offs like this from happening; I'm talking particularly about this kind of carnage, or the Virginia Tech shooting. Now the kind of stuff that might be curtailed by changes in your mindset towards guns would be more like that neighbourhood watch kid who shot the black fella a while ago. Guns really ought not occupy any part of your brain that deals with decisions related to problem solving. You should never find yourself in a logical frame of mind thinking "hey, this is okay, everyday shit that I am doing" when you are in the position to shoot someone. If you do, then you're a disturbed individual. Anyways. No sense tossing proposed solutions to this stuff around because there aren't any. You won't win votes by saying "sorry, nothing can be done" and so you won't hear anyone in government saying it, but that's the sad fuckin' truth. Give people more guns, take them away - what's the difference? If some idiot had a gun in his pocket in that cinema and thought "this is my big chance to save the day", he probably would've hit just as many bystanders as that cunt Holmes did. Despite what we like to picture in our daydreams, we do not all shoot like pornstars when the time comes. |
| Micrówave 25.07.2012 09:52 |
Great last 3 posts.
Panchgani wrote: I can see owning a gun for self defence, but it is just too easy to buy an arsenal. I could not have said this better. This shooting did not happen because it's easy to buy a gun "at the corner store". These kind of outbursts happen, it's a fact of life. And it is terrible. But you don't fix things by taking away a society's rights that have worked out pretty well so far. Donate the shooter's body to science. They've been making an awful lot of great progress lately. And don't blame Christopher Nolan. |
| tero! 48531 26.07.2012 07:02 |
Micrówave wrote:Yes, and it's quite easy to obtain illegal ammunation over there as well. "Getting rid of the guns at home altogether' will not stop this from happening. But it would increase the rate of burglaries and car jackings and other "gun violence" related activities."getting rid of the" booze (prohibition) "at home altogether" did not stop it from flowing. It only created a larger criminal enterprise.Also, "getting rid of the" crack "at home altogether" will not stop it from being a problem in the community."getting rid of" pornography "at home altogether" will not stop it from being distributed."getting rid of" a certain album "at home altogether" will not stop it from being listened to. "getting rid of" a queenzone troll "at home altogether" will not stop them from posting.Of course it's possible to get illegal ammunition, just like it's possible to get illegal guns to begin with. But that's not the real point, is it? Not having a loaded gun under your pillow and having to find a source of illegal weapons prevents 99% of crimes of passion, accidental shootings of your relatives, drunken revenges, and people who are angry for failing a university class. It won't stop the robbers of course, but how many average Joes are a match for hardened criminals anyway? Colorado has very little control over buying guns, and apparently just about any applicant can get a license to carry a concelaed weapon (about 80% of applicants, tens of thousands every year)... If that didn't help to prevent a shooting, how do you expect more guns to prevent it? |
| The Real Wizard 27.07.2012 12:01 |
YourValentine wrote: Which kinds of role models do we actually give young people? The message we give young people is one of "survival of the fittest" rather than "love your neighbour". Look at our politicians and the lack of respect towards the opponent. Look at the economy and how big parts of the people are left behind in favour of the profit of a few. Look at our nations and how we "solve" problems with armies and violence.And of all developed nations, the USA is the absolute worst at all of these things, historically and today. |
| Micrówave 27.07.2012 12:04 |
Yeah, I bet those Indians who used to live in Canada before the French killed them and took their land think the same way. Do you do anything other than stir the piss? The Shedden massacre involved the killing of eight men, whose bodies were found in a farmer's field five kilometres north of Shedden, a hamlet in the Canadian province of Ontario, on April 8, 2006 They were SHOT. How does this happen in peaceful Canada, Bob? But you go on believing that only things like that happen in the US because of our lax gun laws. |
| The Real Wizard 27.07.2012 12:13 |
Micrówave wrote: But you go on believing that only things like that happen in the US because of our lax gun laws.When did I ever say these things only happen in the US? In this very thread I stated that it happens more per capita in the US than in any other developed nation, not that it happens exclusively in your country. You only diminish your argument by putting words into others' mouths. Stick to the topic at hand and maybe people will listen to what you have to say. |
| GratefulFan 27.07.2012 12:18 |
That Shedden one was creepy. People left in the trunks of cars in the middle of a field. Biker justice. Very chilling. Gun violence does exist here, typically of the domestic violence type or gang violence like the case noted. But anecdotal arguments about Canadian crime simply do not compare, not even remotely, to the gun culture of the United States. |
| MadTheSwine73 27.07.2012 12:58 |
I was actually reading somewhere (CBC, I think) that all the guns this guy used are actually available for purchase in Canada. |
| GratefulFan 27.07.2012 13:41 |
I have no doubt that's true. The difference, as I noted, is the lack of any real gun culture here outside of hunting. There are escalating hoops to jump through as you move from hunting rifles through handguns, and anything with the word "assault" in it's description is generally going to be on the substantial list of prohibited weapons. People who don't hunt and don't have the hobby of shooting at a range for leisure and skill simply are highly unlikely to seek out gun ownership. There are millions of guns in the hands of Canadians, but they occupy an entirely different place in the psyche for the most part. |
| GratefulFan 27.07.2012 13:52 |
MadTheSwine73 wrote: I was actually reading somewhere (CBC, I think) that all the guns this guy used are actually available for purchase in Canada.Found this: link |
| The Real Wizard 27.07.2012 14:56 |
MadTheSwine73 wrote: I was actually reading somewhere (CBC, I think) that all the guns this guy used are actually available for purchase in Canada.Yup. Media fear-mongering. Guns aren't the issue. It's the culture, as has been plentifully pointed out here. |
| Micrówave 27.07.2012 16:25 |
Right. Because of America's "gun culture", as Bob describes it, all shootings are because of America.
Thanks a lot, Obama.
To buy and possess a gun in Canada, a licence has to be acquired no matter what kind of gun it is. But the type of firearm will dictate the type of licence, and other restrictions such as transportation and storage rules. For all licences, the Canadian Firearms Safety Course has to be taken, a test passed and a police background check completed. There are some exceptions for the course requirementWhich is what is required in the U.S. So I guess you can go to any "corner store" and obtain a firearm in CANADA also!!!! This is why Bob needs to stick to Queen topics. He hates the U.S. Not sure why. If he were British, I could understand. But what has the US done to poor Bob to garner such disrespect? I've never figured that out. |
| Holly2003 27.07.2012 16:39 |
This is like the world's worst episode of Hannity and Colmes. What's next? "Have you stopped hating America yet? Answer yes or no only." |
| Micrówave 27.07.2012 16:59 |
I think he's got some sort of detector on his computer. Anytime a thread contains the words "United" and "States" he lashes out.
But back to topic....
Holy crap, Batman. It's already starting...
(CNN) -- A Maryland man who was in the process of being fired was taken into custody Friday after allegedly calling himself a "joker" and threatening a supervisor, police said. Police in the Maryland counties of Prince George's and Anne Arundel acted on the alleged threat and the use of the word "joker." The Joker is the nemesis of the comic character Batman and a character in the film the "Dark Knight Rises." Apparantly CNN hasn't seen the movie. Next, they'll tell us that Heath Ledger will be great in it. |
| The Real Wizard 27.07.2012 17:30 |
Micrówave wrote: Right. Because of America's "gun culture", as Bob describes it, all shootings are because of America. Thanks a lot, Obama.What does Obama have to do with this? And where did I state "all" shootings? Your ability to connect one thought to another with some sort of logic is absolutely abysmal. You are an embarrassment to the idea of exchange of dialogue. You should be posting at NRA forums. |
| Micrówave 27.07.2012 18:27 |
Obama has nothing to do with it, pinhead. It was a joke. But, like I said... anytime the U.S. is brought up, your head pops up and spews false information. You should be posting at "the corner store". |
| tero! 48531 28.07.2012 02:39 |
I guess we agree that America is not the only western country with lots of weapons, but it is a country with a significantly higher rate of gun-related violence? I personally think that getting rid of all those pointless guns at home is something that's worth trying, rather than getting the people more guns. My suggestion is to give new licences only to people who have an actual hobby that needs guns, and only for guns that are related to the hobby. In the countryside you could store hunting rifles at your home (in a locked storage, with record of every access) or a hunting club, but in the city you would leave your gun at the shooting range. Ammunition would be available for use at the shooting range (people to be searched when leaving) and a limited number of specialist stores in the countryside where you need a hunting permit (subject to a comprehensive health check) and your purchases will be registered. Whenever a current licensee dies his weapons should be returned to the state (by a punish of a criminal sentence), and in 20 years the climate in USA has changed from "everybody should have a gun at home" to "only criminals need guns at home". All guns confiscated from criminals should be destroyed of course, and the number of guns in use (along with gun-related violence) keeps dropping year after year. (And it wouldn't hurt to have a similar programme in other countries too!) |
| YourValentine 28.07.2012 04:08 |
I agree with you, Tero. Actually, I am very much against people owning guns and trying to solve anything with guns. My point is just that in a case like the Aurora shootings the gun laws are not the decisive factor. I think it is not helpful that gun laws are always discussed when something so outrageous happens because it is much too easy for the "2nd amendment" promoters to point ot that a criminal will always get a weapon even if there are laws forbidding it. My head started spinning when I watched Mitt Romney point out that Americans need to be able to defend themselves with a gun. I did not see any one defend himself/herself in the Aurora cinema and I wonder what would have happened if other people had pulled out firearms and had started to shoot in panic - just unbelievable. I really happen to agree with Bob when he says that everything is a bit worse in the United States: the social division, the incredible hatred between political opponents, the economic inequality. However, I see the same tendencies everywhere else, most notably in Europe. I am not anti-American when I say that the USA are the forerunners in a development that is very bad for the overwhelming majority of the people. It scares me how different people can see this world with all kinds of powerful lobbyists spreading "their" truth, the internet being full of weirdoes and conspiracy theorists, and mainstream media owned by special interests. It is almost impossible for a young individual to find a place in this world where they can develop with no hatred and jealousy. Bullying is more present in young peoples' reality today than loving adults helping them to find their way. Really, I feel old and conservative when I watch how our children grow up and I feel sorry for them: they must live with the consequences of our irresponsible exploitation of the world's ressources, they have a very unsecure economic future, they face overpopulation in the third world and overaging in Europe, mass unemployment, mass poverty. With all these problems ahead our political and intellectual elite is totally unable to find solutions in favour of the majority - everything is sacrificed on the altar of capitalism and greed. Of course we cannot blame everyone and everything for a single incident but the blame game should start in front of a mirror. |
| ParisNair 28.07.2012 04:34 |
The Real Wizard wrote:I've seen you use the term "civilized world" quite a few times and I wonder how you define this phrase.Micrówave wrote: I am stating that (once again) gun laws did NOTHING to affect what happened here.There are more gun fatalities in the USA per capita than any other developed country worldwide, by far. The USA is the only country in the developed world where you can buy a gun at the corner store. The entire civilized outside world sees a correlation, but I have little doubt that you won't. FYI I am from India, and I consider my country to have one of the best and greatest civilizations. We may not be rich (economically) or developed (infrastructure-wise) in comparison to western countries. But to say that we are not civilised, means you live in shell. |
| The Real Wizard 28.07.2012 17:00 |
Micrówave wrote: Obama has nothing to do with it, pinhead. It was a joke.I don't think anyone found it funny. But, like I said... anytime the U.S. is brought up, your head pops up and spews false information.I don't hate your country, despite your earlier suggestion. I have plenty of American friends, I watch American sports, and I've greatly enjoyed every state I've visited. Just because you don't like my observations doesn't somehow mean I unequivocally hate your country in its totality. Binary thinking - I know, it's a hard one to get past. Attacking people online and using diversionary tactics does not change facts. I am simply the messenger. If a Dutch magazine printed that the US ranks 178th in infant mortality, are you going to hate that magazine, or are you going to take the facts they present at face value - or god forbid, ask questions as to why this is the case in the "land of the free" ? At the Olympic opening ceremonies last night, the athletes of two countries wore outfits that were made in China - China and the United States. TV commentators and newspapers worldwide have made the observation. Your country is being ridiculed by the world once again. You are just so hellbent on defending your country in the light of frivolous things like facts that you seek to demonize anyone and anything that stands in the way of your sugarcoated version of reality that exists only between your borders. Xenophobia is a term that I continue to urge you to look up. The US leads the world in proud categories such as the number of incarcerated citizens per capita and defense spending, not important things like literacy, doctor to patient ratio or economic equality. You need to accept that the US is not a world leader, and that nobody in their right mind is going to listen to a fanatically right wing American on issues of gun violence. |
| The Real Wizard 28.07.2012 17:04 |
ParisNair wrote: I've seen you use the term "civilized world" quite a few times and I wonder how you define this phrase. FYI I am from India, and I consider my country to have one of the best and greatest civilizations. We may not be rich (economically) or developed (infrastructure-wise) in comparison to western countries. But to say that we are not civilised, means you live in shell.Naturally the very definition of "civilized world" cannot be pigeon-holed, especially when so many countries are evolving ever so quickly in so many different ways. Germany is civilized. Saudi Arabia is not. But there is a lot of middle ground. Like you said, India may not be a world leader in economics or infrastructure, but they certainly are an example of good government (kudos on taking Monsanto to court!), balancing rich tradition with industrialization, and a very high level of intelligence. The excessive presence of car horns and resulting noise pollution in Mumbai may not be something to be proud of, but everyone's got their flaws ! |
| Saint Jiub 29.07.2012 11:04 |
I do not recall hearing an excessive amount of car horns when I was in Mumbai a few years ago. Traffic sucked, but it was mesmerizing watching the women in colorful saris riding side saddle on the backs of motorcycles. It fascinating watching the organized chaos on the roads where lanes are optional and cars come within inches of each other and rarely collide. |
| Saint Jiub 29.07.2012 11:17 |
I get the impression that I should be dodging bullets everyday. In my 50 years, I have never heard gun fire in the US, but I have heard and been within one kilometer of AK-47 gunfire in Mexico. Damn Zeta gang members. The only reliable news down there with respect to gun violence is Twitter, as the journalists fear for their lives if they report on gang activity. Why is it I never hear Queenzone mention the horrible violence and mass killings in Mexico? Oh that's right - it's more fun to bash the US. |
| ParisNair 29.07.2012 14:45 |
The Real Wizard wrote: India may not be a world leader in economics or infrastructure, but they certainly are an example of good government (kudos on taking Monsanto to court!), balancing rich tradition with industrialization, and a very high level of intelligence. The excessive presence of car horns and resulting noise pollution in Mumbai may not be something to be proud of, but everyone's got their flaws !Good government - not really. The current central govt has broken all records of corruption ever reported in the country. Whenever a scam breaks out, we see a minister or other officials resign from their current post due to publc out-cry. The govt takes /initiates no other action.Frustration of the people at the govt is higher than ever before. A movement was triggered n the country last year...something similar to the jasmine revolution of the middle east, but we're in a peculiar situation. We are not (and never were) a dictator ship or under autocratic rule. Our govt came to power by winning votes of the people....so nothing can be done atleast till the next general election The current coalition govt have a solid majority in the parliament as they won lots of votes in the prev election. Now the judiciary is another story. Its strong, and unafraid of the govt. Even the strong and the "richie rich" have been broken and put behind bars, not by police or govt action, but by judicial force. It is said that we have the best laws in the world thanks to the courts, but the implementation is so poor by the govt that the laws are rendered toothless. If you have money, you can bend any rule in this country. As for mumbai traffic...its the bad roads (again thanks to the govt) that are more of a concern than the honking. |
| ParisNair 29.07.2012 14:52 |
I don't wanna hijack this topic, so my point of view about the Dark Knight killings - what makes a man go into a theater and kill strangers just like that? or a student go into a school and start firing at his class mates and teachers? Easy availability of guns? i don't think so. Sure, they probably use the guns cos they're easy to get. But if that was not the case, they would have probably used home-made bombs or something. It's the psychology of these criminal minds that needs to be deciphered. |
| Missreclusive 29.07.2012 22:12 |
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| Holly2003 30.07.2012 03:22 |
Watched the film yesterday. It was enjoyable enough, if over-long and convoluted. They've incorporated elements of the graphic novels Knightfall and The Dark Night Returns, which was fun. The surprise ending was also err.. surprising. Guess we're going to see a "Nightwing" movie at some point. Lastly, my local film theatre was murder-free, which is always a plus point. |
| YourValentine 30.07.2012 04:37 |
Panchgani wrote: I get the impression that I should be dodging bullets everyday. In my 50 years, I have never heard gun fire in the US, but I have heard and been within one kilometer of AK-47 gunfire in Mexico. Damn Zeta gang members. The only reliable news down there with respect to gun violence is Twitter, as the journalists fear for their lives if they report on gang activity. Why is it I never hear Queenzone mention the horrible violence and mass killings in Mexico? Oh that's right - it's more fun to bash the US. I think we discuss it because a thread about the Colorado shooting was started and not one about Mexican drug wars. In my opinion it is not about bashing "the US" at all - it is about how does a country address a problem and why is it so hard to get the US public to lay down the gun. I wonder what would happen if 7000 US Citizens were killed by terrorists each year on American soil. Would there be anti-terror legislation or would people say that laws won't help because terrorists do not obey any laws, anyway. Look at the incredible changes in airport security after 9/11 and other attempted terrorist attacks. I do not hear people complain about the restriction of their civil rights in favour of crime prevention, although certain extreme measures are of course discussed. Nobody asks for a travel-at-your-own-risk airline with no security checks although most travellers never saw any terrorists or witnessed a terrorist attack. I can say that I fly quite often and never saw any terrorists in my life at all but still I had to walk with no shoes through security in England for 3 years until they changed that again.. What is really amazing is that in all other problems modern governments have a tendency to rather forbid everything for the whole population than allow some excesses to happen - only the possession of guns seems to be the one exception. This is really hard to understand. |
| Micrówave 30.07.2012 10:34 |
The US leads the world in proud categories such as the number of incarcerated citizens per capita and defense spending Actually, China leads in executions, otherwise they might top the list of incarcerated. China is # 2 in defense spending. Also of note: 2012 OLYMPIC MEDAL COUNT (as of 7/30) 13 US. 13 China 8 Italy 7 Japan 6 France 5 Korea 1 Canada (a bronze) |
| tcc 30.07.2012 11:06 |
Micrówave wrote:The US leads the world in proud categories such as the number of incarcerated citizens per capita and defense spendingActually, China leads in executions, otherwise they might top the list of incarcerated. China is # 2 in defense spending. Also of note: 2012 OLYMPIC MEDAL COUNT (as of 7/30) 13 US. 13 China 8 Italy 7 Japan 6 France 5 Korea 1 Canada (a bronze) You should list it as follows: 13 China 13 USA In alpha sequence, C is before U. In gold medals sequence, China has more (as of 7/30). |
| Holly2003 30.07.2012 11:23 |
Micrówave wrote:FOX NEWS REPORT: New study shows that countries which execute the most prisoners win most medals at the Olympics.The US leads the world in proud categories such as the number of incarcerated citizens per capita and defense spendingActually, China leads in executions, otherwise they might top the list of incarcerated. China is # 2 in defense spending.Also of note:2012 OLYMPIC MEDAL COUNT (as of 7/30)13 US. 13 China 8 Italy 7 Japan 6 France 5 Korea 1 Canada (a bronze) |
| catqueen 30.07.2012 13:55 |
Panchgani wrote: I get the impression that I should be dodging bullets everyday. In my 50 years, I have never heard gun fire in the US, but I have heard and been within one kilometer of AK-47 gunfire in Mexico. Damn Zeta gang members. The only reliable news down there with respect to gun violence is Twitter, as the journalists fear for their lives if they report on gang activity. Why is it I never hear Queenzone mention the horrible violence and mass killings in Mexico? Oh that's right - it's more fun to bash the US. |
| GratefulFan 30.07.2012 14:32 |
Micrówave wrote: Also of note:2012 OLYMPIC MEDAL COUNT (as of 7/30)13 US. 13 China 8 Italy 7 Japan 6 France 5 Korea 1 Canada (a bronze)Approximately 11 of those US medals are due to athletes instinctively projecting themselves 17 feet when the shooting starts. :P |
| Missreclusive 30.07.2012 14:43 |
GratefulFan wrote:LOL@ GF and HollyMicrówave wrote: Also of note:2012 OLYMPIC MEDAL COUNT (as of 7/30)13 US. 13 China 8 Italy 7 Japan 6 France 5 Korea 1 Canada (a bronze)Approximately 11 of those US medals are due to athletes instinctively projecting themselves 17 feet when the shooting starts. :P |
| Micrówave 30.07.2012 15:53 |
Update 17 China 17 United States 11 Japan 8 Italy 7 France 6 Korea 1 Cuba 1 Canada Cuba is listed above Canada for Bob because of their higher literacy rate... not because of their Silver medal. Unfortunately they can't start the 400 because Starter Pistols are not allowed due to Britain's strict Gun Laws. |
| Holly2003 31.07.2012 11:13 |
There's a crowd of 20k+ expected at the USA-N.Korea women's football today. As only 10k went to see the USA basketball team play, this clearly proves that football is the greatest game in the world and that basketball sucks. Also, basketball players are all sissy marys. |
| GratefulFan 09.08.2012 12:25 |
LOL link Funny, a little sad, and very illustrative of the cultural divide between Canada and the US on guns, for better or worse. Recent reports seem to indicate the guys were handing out free passes to the Stampede. |
| The Real Wizard 09.08.2012 15:26 |
I heard about this. I pity him. The idea of having a spontaneous conversation with someone is foreign to him. Nothing to do with the USA being a culture of fear... |
| Missreclusive 09.08.2012 16:12 |
Unfortunately it seems that way and its very sad. |
| The Real Wizard 09.08.2012 16:52 |
This just in... Cops from Sweden, Austria and France also came to Canada with their guns, and their negative encounters with the friendly locals didn't get reported by the obviously anti-US media. Members of the Canadian media apologized for their bias and promised not to report anything that holds the US in a negative light. |
