| djaef 20.07.2005 21:27 |
The "Buffalo incident" as we could call it has certainly awoken some strong views on trading here. I have read all of them and, to be honest, I fall somewhere in the middle of all the attitudes. I appreciate what the hard core traders are saying, but arguments in the opposing camp have also been strong... YV's posts in particular. But since I am a trader myself, I fall to that side, though I do respect the opposing opinions. BUT. This thread is not about that. It's about a related part of trading. What I would like to know is this: How come releasing a rather dull silent video causes 17 pages of comment, but when I reveal that some concerts being shared here are mp3 sourced, no-one even wants to talk about it? I have receieved mp3 sourced shows in trades several times now. I've downloaded mp3 sourced shows as well. It's obviously a big problem. So why can't we have a discussion about it, also from the serious traders? I want to know the attitude the Queen trading community takes on this issue. As it stands, my interpretation is that since no one wants to talk about it (and the only evidence I have here is that the two threads I wrote about the issue went into oblivion without hardly any comment) I imagine the problem to be so big no one wants to admit it. Tell me I'm wrong. link link link |
| Fenderek 21.07.2005 03:50 |
I think the problem actually is huge. People very often don't even know if the show is mp3 sourced or not and give the false information- not on purpose! I recently received great sounding bootleg from Brian's AW tour just to discover taht it was indeed taken from mp3. The guy was swearing he didn't know- I actually believed him. I do understand those who really want the best of the best- I myslef don't want any mp3s in my collection (or don't treat them as a part of it). And I do understand those who just want to listen to some stuff and are not bothered downloading huge FLAC file... Nevertheless- I am surprised djaef taht no-one seems to give a damn about it. MAYBE it's because those who care simply aren't even watching those aprticular threads (Mannheim'86 on rapidshare- is scully going to be interested in it?) and the rest either doesn't care about the difference or simply want more shows in less time? |
| djaef 21.07.2005 04:33 |
Fenderek wrote: I think the problem actually is huge. People very often don't even know if the show is mp3 sourced or not and give the false information- not on purpose!Yes, I'm sure the majority are just not checking their concerts and are just assuming that if they got it as wave or flac, then that's what it is. But what I want to do is raise the awareness of checking all flac / wave content to make sure it's not mp3 sourced. Fenderek wrote: I do understand those who really want the best of the best- I myslef don't want any mp3s in my collection (or don't treat them as a part of it). And I do understand those who just want to listen to some stuff and are not bothered downloading huge FLAC file...I actually like both. This is not an anti mp3 thread. I have more concerts in mp3 than I do in flac / wave, but I just like to keep them apart. One is for listening / enjoyment, the other is for trading / listening / enjoyment. :) Mp3 stuff is fine, it's just has no place in trading. Fenderek wrote: I am surprised djaef taht no-one seems to give a damn about it. MAYBE it's because those who care simply aren't even watching those aprticular threads (Mannheim'86 on rapidshare- is scully going to be interested in it?) and the rest either doesn't care about the difference or simply want more shows in less time?I don't expect the mp3 crowd to be interested. It is a trading issue, nothing else. But what about all the traders here. There are many. My threads were entitled "mp3 sourced shows masquerading as flac", "Spectrum Analyzer" and the first one was a post in the "ANNOUNCE: Queen, Philadelphia 20.11.1978 - FLAC" thread. No Mannheim 86 threads there. They are all threads traders would be likely to see and visit. Actually, the first response I got from any of this was Fairy Fellers (who had originally posted the Philadelphia 78 torrent) and all he had to say was a cryptic and somewhat smartass "I think you are too clever". Here I was thinking I was bringing an important issue to the fore, and that's what I get? the_hero wrote: Over the last.. *thinks* 3 or 4 months I've been sharing mp3 sourced stuff because I couldn't rip my cds to flac or wav. The reasons that others probably posted mp3 sourced concerts is because they either found it on winmx or kazaa or they downloaded mp3 stuff in the hub because they don't have the right internet connection to download flac. Now about the "why aren't traders satisfied with the mp3 sourced concerts?" I agree with you that the difference between een Ex show in mp3 and an Ex show in flac don't have very hearable differences. But flac sourced is in slightly better quality and traders just want the best of the best so they oly accept flac shows. I hope I didn't go very off topicWell actually Thiijs, you went way off topic :) I also share mp3 concerts. That is not the issue. Neither is the whys of whether people get hold of mp3 stuff or flac stuff. Nor is it anything to do with "why aren't traders satisfied with the mp3 sourced concerts?". They are not, and that's good enough for me. There are loads of good reasons why not to pollute the trading pool with mp3s. Quality being the most obvious, and the degrading nature of lossy recordings being the second most obvious. And I don't know who you are agreeing with man, cause although I agree there is not too much of a noticable difference between a well encoded mp3 show at a decent bit rate and a flac show, I never said it :))))) That's not the issue either. The issue IS people trading and/or sharing shows as flac or wave files which are ACTUALLY mp3 sourced files converted to wave / flac. That is the issue. Nothing else. So, rest easy, and continue smoking.. uhh, I mean doing what you were d |
| djaef 21.07.2005 04:44 |
But that's my whole point. We HAVE to go to the effort of checking these shows, because otherwise it'll turn into an epidemic (if it's not already.) I myself don't want to pass a show off as non-mp3 sourced if it is. Therefore I won't trade any show I haven't checked. Simple. If everyone did that there would be no problem. And I don't know why you couldn't rip a song into wave, but of course that could hinder you a bit. I would suggest not trading that concert until you did actually check it. |
| Tero 21.07.2005 05:43 |
I'll just say my two cents worth of stupid things, and be off again... This is not directed at anyone. The "serious traders" aren't satisfied with mp3 files, and they're willing to trade for the flac shows. There are (new) traders who have nothing of value to get to the next ladder of the trading game, but they do have access to the mp3 shows. If they're lucky and the other person doesn't check the files (or believes the "I didn't know!" routine), they've succesfully stepped over a few levels and actually have something to trade. And everybody's happy. |
| Tero 21.07.2005 07:30 |
the_hero wrote: Everybody's happy untill the whole trade market knows you trade mp3 sourced stuff or have traded it in the past.So the question becomes "Do they know?" Are Djaef's topics indicative of a lack of knowledge/interest in the source, or are they just telling that the real traders are avoiding QZ? You obviously have at least some trading experience, so you could probably tell if you verify the source on a regular basis? |
| Mr. Scully 21.07.2005 08:12 |
I strictly trade only audioCD's. That doesn't mean I don't receive MP3 sourced gigs - but it should be just a minority. I really don't have time to check all my recordings but I can estimate 5% of them are probably MP3 sourced (and I don't know about it). What bothers me about the MP3 shows is NOT the sound quality - with a 20th generation copy I really don't mind if the recording misses some frequencies above a certain range. But all MP3's with no exception have this annoying short silence at the beginning of each file which causes those infamous "clicks" between tracks when burned as audioCD. |
| Tero 21.07.2005 08:24 |
Mr. Scully wrote: But all MP3's with no exception have this annoying short silence at the beginning of each file which causes those infamous "clicks" between tracks when burned as audioCD.Luckily that's an easy problem to fix, since converting the mp3 files into waves and editing out the silence takes literally a few minutes for an entire concert. After unfortunate experiences with some of the lossless files I've also decided to convert all of them into waves as well before I burn them. |
| Fenderek 21.07.2005 08:46 |
Tero wrote:I tried that. On my hi-fi I can stll hear a slight click- not a 2 second silence, I think it's maybe 0.001 now... but there's still a click, the laser still detects it... Is it possible to edit it completely out?Mr. Scully wrote: But all MP3's with no exception have this annoying short silence at the beginning of each file which causes those infamous "clicks" between tracks when burned as audioCD.Luckily that's an easy problem to fix, since converting the mp3 files into waves and editing out the silence takes literally a few minutes for an entire concert. After unfortunate experiences with some of the lossless files I've also decided to convert all of them into waves as well before I burn them. |
| Ale_Pisa 21.07.2005 08:50 |
djaef wrote: How come releasing a rather dull silent video causes 17 pages of comment, but when I reveal that some concerts being shared here are mp3 sourced, no-one even wants to talk about it? I have receieved mp3 sourced shows in trades several times now. I've downloaded mp3 sourced shows as well. It's obviously a big problem. So why can't we have a discussion about it, also from the serious traders? I want to know the attitude the Queen trading community takes on this issue. As it stands, my interpretation is that since no one wants to talk about it (and the only evidence I have here is that the two threads I wrote about the issue went into oblivion without hardly any comment) I imagine the problem to be so big no one wants to admit it.Hi, there's a little problem... for example Golders Green Complete version is rare, Ok? If you want you can buy the original bootleg from the japanese market called "Queen Will Be Crowned"! You can't say "STOP! People don't buy that!" and, if I buy, you can't say to me "Don't share for free!" The Bufalo Video it's very hard to find, is not on bootleg market, and traders use this for trade for other CD/Video. But if someone have this... the people who want is more less that before "the incident"! :) This is my think! I like to trade, and I trade with everyone as soon as possible! I hope you can understand what I try to said! |
| djaef 21.07.2005 09:08 |
Tero wrote: The "serious traders" aren't satisfied with mp3 files, and they're willing to trade for the flac shows. There are (new) traders who have nothing of value to get to the next ladder of the trading game, but they do have access to the mp3 shows. If they're lucky and the other person doesn't check the files (or believes the "I didn't know!" routine), they've succesfully stepped over a few levels and actually have something to trade. And everybody's happy.No, the newbies might be happy, but the person at the other end will be mightily pissed off someone has tried to rip him off. There are loads of shows I can get / or have already got in mp3. I trade to get them in lossless quality. Imagine how pissed off I am in in the trade I get something I already have or could have got with minumum fuss. The newbies will not be happy when I smear their reputation across the Internet. Then they'll find there are no traders that want anything to do with them. Another thing. All beginners can join the hub and watch the flac torrents here and with patience build up a collection of 10 or more lossless gigs in a reasonable time. Then you can start trading. I started trading when I had about 15 lossless shows. Now I have about 50. In a year, who knows.... |
| djaef 21.07.2005 09:11 |
Ale_Pisa wrote: Hi, there's a little problem... for example Golders Green Complete version is rare, Ok? If you want you can buy the original bootleg from the japanese market called "Queen Will Be Crowned"! You can't say "STOP! People don't buy that!" and, if I buy, you can't say to me "Don't share for free!" The Bufalo Video it's very hard to find, is not on bootleg market, and traders use this for trade for other CD/Video. But if someone have this... the people who want is more less that before "the incident"! :) This is my think! I like to trade, and I trade with everyone as soon as possible! I hope you can understand what I try to said!:)) I'm not sure if I fully follow you Ale_Pisa, but I appreciate you having a go. I can't stop anyone buying Golders Green, and I would never complain if someone chose to share that (or any other rarity) on here. That is their choice and is a good sharing spirit. But neither do I have a problem with people keeping the rarities so that they can trade with them. that is the game. My problem is just with mp3 sourced stuff getting mixed up in the trading pool, either accidentally or deliberately. |
| Fat Lizzy 21.07.2005 10:31 |
Since you are also referring to me Djeaf, I think this is a great topic. I'll explain to the other guys who read this first. I agreed to a trade with Djeaf, and sent him his concerts which came from a trader in Holland known as Michael Kars. Since he was mentioned on several sites as a good trader I just assumed the concerts were lossless as he said. I sent two of those shows to Djeaf and they appeared to be MP3 sourced. Now what did we do about that you think? I scanned all my recordings (over 120) and found another 8 other MP3 sourced recordings. I sent Djeaf 2 new shows (like all traders are supposed to imho) which I proved to be lossless. How do you think? Just by sending screenshots of the spectrum analysis. Before I go offtopic too much, I want to spread the message which I could also have said at the beginning of my reply. Lossless concerts aren't bad if you just want them for research or just to listen to, but if you convert them to MP3 to fuck with traders on purpose... Then you should really think of what you're doing. If a trader doesn't check the recordings he is recieving then you could screw not only the one who you're trading with, but also all others which the guy (or girl) is trading with. And as long no-one checks it, then it will be spreaded on till one smart trader checks the source. And there start the trouble for the other traders from which he got the recording from. Anyway... Check the bootlegs you're getting as a trader, it doesn't matter where and from who you got them... Just do it if you want to stay a good, reliable trader. And if you don't... Be polite enough to send (a) new concert(s). Also maybe a rather smart tip for other traders, ask for screenshots of the spectrum analysis first, although it might seem much work it really isn't. Jerome |
| Tero 21.07.2005 11:33 |
Fenderek wrote: I tried that. On my hi-fi I can stll hear a slight click- not a 2 second silence, I think it's maybe 0.001 now... but there's still a click, the laser still detects it... Is it possible to edit it completely out?I use a waveform editor called Sound Forge. It lets you choose an area to delete with the accuracy of 1 sample (that's 1/44,100 of a second for cd quality). I can't personally hear the gap if it's less than 1/1,000 of a second, and even that's a whole lot better than the usual 23/1,000 second gap mp3s have. (Or the 2 seconds if you burn the cds with track-at-once instead of disc-at-once... :P ) If there is still an audible gap in the cds after that, you should probably get a new cd-player. ;) |
| Wilki Amieva 21.07.2005 11:37 |
djaef wrote: But that's my whole point. We HAVE to go to the effort of checking these shows, because otherwise it'll turn into an epidemic (if it's not already.) I myself don't want to pass a show off as non-mp3 sourced if it is. Therefore I won't trade any show I haven't checked. Simple. If everyone did that there would be no problem. And I don't know why you couldn't rip a song into wave, but of course that could hinder you a bit. I would suggest not trading that concert until you did actually check it.Most serious collectors do that already - I guess the problem is that some of them do not have the knowledge to do so. Obviously, there are also people that just do not care. But there is nothing we can do about that. |
| Tero 21.07.2005 11:37 |
djaef wrote: No, the newbies might be happy, but the person at the other end will be mightily pissed off someone has tried to rip him off. There are loads of shows I can get / or have already got in mp3. I trade to get them in lossless quality. Imagine how pissed off I am in in the trade I get something I already have or could have got with minumum fuss. The newbies will not be happy when I smear their reputation across the Internet. Then they'll find there are no traders that want anything to do with them.Obviously I wasn't clear enough... As long as nobody notices the difference, everybody's happy. Even long time serious traders haven't verified the origin of their material, so why would everyone else have? You can of course smear the reputation of a helpless newbie, but would you try to do the same to Mr. Scully if one of his trades came from an mp3 source? |
| riku_queencdr 21.07.2005 15:58 |
My advice: Always ask a short (10-15 sec) flac sample of each show and check the frequencies. This is the only way to avoid mp3 sourced shows. Do remember that most of the MD players (especially the older ones) pack the audio so that the frequency ranges seems to be missing above 16000 hz. This is not the same as mp3 conversion as MD uses ATRAC. Also, mp3 cuts the frequncies in strict horizontal line. ATRAC packing shows a lot of "peaks" in the frequencies so it looks different than mp3 frequency cut. |
| agneepath! 11994 21.07.2005 16:32 |
Trading is all about trust. Often we trade with the same people over and over again... and these people become our "friends" If an mp3 sourced boot slips through the net - you know its a genuine mistake. |
| Mr Mercury 21.07.2005 18:28 |
riku_queencdr wrote: My advice: Always ask a short (10-15 sec) flac sample of each show and check the frequencies. This is the only way to avoid mp3 sourced shows.Just what I was about to say!! Well you beat me to it. |
| Holden Caulfield 21.07.2005 20:55 |
How can I check that my lossless aren't mp3 based? Which program? And what do I have to look out for exactly? And to be quite honest, would you hear the difference between a 320kbps mp3 or a Flac one? In your average hifi system? I'd like to do that test. Actually I have done similar tests (mp3 with audio cd) and none of my friends could hear the difference... But I guess it depends on the quality of the hifi system, the quality of the mp3 and maybe more.... HC |
| djaef 22.07.2005 02:22 |
Holden Caulfield wrote: How can I check that my lossless aren't mp3 based? Which program? And what do I have to look out for exactly? And to be quite honest, would you hear the difference between a 320kbps mp3 or a Flac one? In your average hifi system? I'd like to do that test. Actually I have done similar tests (mp3 with audio cd) and none of my friends could hear the difference... But I guess it depends on the quality of the hifi system, the quality of the mp3 and maybe more.... HCEAC (Exact Audio Copy) is one of the best programs for copying cds, and it is free. It also has a spectral and frequency analyser built in. I would recommend it to anyone. Holden Caulfield, it's actually nothing to do with what you can hear. Some people could actually hear the difference, but that's beside the point. In an mp3, information is missing. Do you want your recordings to be the best quality possible? Then don't use mp3. That's why they are fins to listen to but not to trade. |
| riku_queencdr 22.07.2005 02:36 |
I use CoolEdit Pro 2.1. These days it's called Adobe Audition as Adobe bought Syntrillium. Just open a wav/FLAC file and click "spectral view" under View tab in the top. |
| scallyuk 22.07.2005 04:41 |
In that case if you want your recordings to be the best possible you shouldn't convert to ANY digital format. Sound is an analogue medium created by moving air. It should wherever possible be captured by analogue methods and retained with no compression and sufficient headroom for all frequencies to be heard. Conversion to a digital recording by sampling at whatever rate will cause some degradation of the signal. mp3 and flac are used for convenience and that means different things to different people. There is room for both formats. TBH and at risk of causing another 20 page thread it wouldn't hurt the serious traders too much to release everything they have converted to low bitrate mp3. The leechers would have the "product", the wannabee traders would know what was out there to aspire to and the casual fan would get a nice bonus package. discuss :) |
| Tero 22.07.2005 05:20 |
scallyuk wrote: Sound is an analogue medium created by moving air. It should wherever possible be captured by analogue methods and retained with no compression and sufficient headroom for all frequencies to be heard.Any technology used to capture the sound is insufficient, unless you're capable of recording the movements of every single molecyle, atom, ion... etc. :P The point of any medium (be it analogue or digital) is to make a compromise based on what humans can hear, and how the recording equipment perceives the sound. There's hardly any point in recording infra- or ultrasounds, is there? |
| Wilki Amieva 23.07.2005 14:42 |
This topic deals with the information missing during compression/resampling rather than the one missing during AD conversions. |