| Farlander 19.10.2004 10:36 |
The guitar riff in the very beginning of Ogre Battle (after the backwards intro). Is that done by all down strokes or alternating down and up? It seems too fast for all down, but alternating is awkward becase of the three note pattern the notes are in. |
| juls 19.10.2004 11:07 |
it is stroke down twice, when the third tone of the triplet comes he plays it with the left hand only per hammer-on indeed a very fast pattern |
| Koolkikiland 19.10.2004 12:16 |
I've tried it both ways - with downstrokes and the hammer-on on the third note as well as alternating up and down through the entire sequence. Though it took longer to get the hang of, I personally like the up and down alternating better because you get a better attack on the last note of the triplets. To me, it sounds like that's the way Brian plays it. Dave |
| Farlander 19.10.2004 13:15 |
Yes, I don't think that last note is a hammer-on. What about two downs follwed by an up? |
| juls 19.10.2004 13:57 |
two downs and one up was my first thought, but after trying to play it I found it more complicated than playing it with hammer-on. just like on the beginning of it's late... ( a lick i love to play) |
| Penis - Vagina 19.10.2004 14:09 |
Forgive the off-topic post, but I have to say it sounds like you guys would be awesome at masturbation. |
| brENsKi 19.10.2004 15:13 |
i don't think you can w**k two downs, then one up - that's got to hurt, and what aout this "hammer on" stuff...scary |
| artist_nine 19.10.2004 15:22 |
It looks like Brian is using hammer-ons during the Hammersmith gig in 1975. |
| Farlander 19.10.2004 15:57 |
Isn't that version significantly faster than the studio version? |
| artist_nine 19.10.2004 16:17 |
Ok, I checked those two versions with a metronome and the live version was approximately 110 Beats Per Minute (quarter notes) and the version on Queen II was about 108 BPM. So practically there is no difference between these two. |
| Bohardy 19.10.2004 20:16 |
Bizarrely, pretty much the only combination of strokes yet to be mentioned is what to me is the obvious answer. Down-Up-Down, Down-Up-Down, Down-Up-Down, Down-Up-Down, Down-Up-Down, Down, Down. Ther's no way that the G is a hammer-on. That would involve hammering on to the 3rd fret from nowhere, and doing that just doesn't give the necessary attack. The fastest logical way of playing the two A5s is to use Down-Up. And to get from the second A5 to the G involves moving your picking-hand UP the strings. And to then get from the G to the A5 involves moving your picking-hand DOWN the strings, so if you use an upstroke for the second A5 and a downstroke for the G (and who ever uses an upstroke for a single note on one string anyway?!) your hand's moving in the right direction in preparation for the next stroke/chord. I swear my way's correct. I remember for years trying to play it all downstrokes, and then one day discovering the above method and it suddenly it was 10 times easier and all made sense. Try it, you'll like it. |
| Farlander 19.10.2004 20:41 |
Sorry, artist_nine, I must have been thinking of something else. Borhardy, you're right - that does make sense, and it should be the most obvious way. I'll give it a try later and see how it feels. |
| artist_nine 20.10.2004 08:05 |
Check out the Hammersmith gig video (1975). I don't know how Brian achieves that kind of an attack in the sound by using hammer-ons, but that's what it looks to me he is doing. But then again, my eyes could be deceiving me... could someone else who has access to the video footage please give a second opinion. Or maybe someone could ask Brian directly? I wonder if he'd give an answer.... |
| Bohardy 20.10.2004 13:58 |
I'll check the vid later on tonight, but unless there's a very clear close-up of his right hand, it'll be pretty much impossible to see exactly what he's doing. Whether he's hammering on the G or not, his left hand will be doing exactly the same thing. |
| Farlander 20.10.2004 14:03 |
Well, I tried your Down Up Down, Down Up Down, last night. I think it may be the answer. I'll have to work with it a while, though, to see how it works after becoming more familiar with it. Thanks for the input, everyone. |
| crowley 20.10.2004 15:27 |
Goddamit I guess I must agree with Deacon Fan Revisited - "down up down up..." :) |
| Bohardy 20.10.2004 19:09 |
Well I'm now one big mass of confusedness. I just checked out the Hammersmith video, and there's 2 moments (the first and last time the riff-proper is played) where you can get a half-decent look at Bri's left hand. Initially I was convinced that the first clearly showed the pattern I was talking about, and that by the end of the song it looked like Bri actually WAS using the hammer-on with two downstrokes method as Juls put forward and I pooh-poohed. After repeated viewings and testing it out on my electric (previously I just used my acoustic) I think I'm gonna have to entirely retract my previous comments and say that it appears (at least live) Bri does use down-down-hammer-on. There isn't actually that much attack to the G (again, at Hammersmith), and in fact it's not really that clear at all, reinforcing the hammer-on idea. Still, the method I spent so long waffling on about does make sense, and gives the riff more bite, and is fun to play. I hate being wrong. |
| juls 20.10.2004 19:53 |
Oh Bohardy, no problem at all! I love topics like this, and I am open for every new way of playing. Ogre Battle is not the easiest riff of Queen, it is quite fast (the triplets raise the speed too) and imagine it would be played in Bb, how hard it would be to play. The way you play it is way "cleaner" and more accurate than using a simplified hammer-on version. But Brian is often using hammer-ons, so that is why I thought it is indeed played this way. |
| The Real Wizard 21.10.2004 01:39 |
I think I play it with the G being hammered on. I don't really consciously think about my right hand! But if not, then I'll just pick alternately. I usually pick that way, regardless of the time signature of a song. 99% of the time, I'm not the least bit worried about what my picking hand is doing.
Bohardy wrote: Ther's no way that the G is a hammer-on. That would involve hammering on to the 3rd fret from nowhere, and doing that just doesn't give the necessary attack.Then I guess you're just not hammering on hard enough... :) Anything can be hammered on. |
| Farlander 21.10.2004 10:20 |
Hmm...more to think about here, I guess. I will have to give the studio version a closer listen, I think. Actually, this WOULD be a really good question for Brian's Soapbox, but it doesn't seem that he bothers to answer these kinds of questions there. |
| Farlander 22.10.2004 10:09 |
Well, I tried the hammer-on technique for a while last night. It's a lot easier than down up down and sounds pretty much just as good. But I'm still not sure that's the way it's done on Queen II. I haven't gone back and listened for it yet, but I'll do it this weekend. |
| Bohardy 22.10.2004 10:32 |
I haven't checked out the studio version either Farlander, but for sure it won't sound as 'sloppy' as live, so I suppose it's possible that Bri maybe used my technique for studio and the hammer-on technique for live, although that seems a little unlikely to me. And by the way Bob, I know very well that you can hammer-on anything. For some reason I just decided to wade into this topic and spout a load of semi-crap without giving it much thought or research, in order to try and sound authoritive...The point I was trying to make though wasn't that it's impossible to hammer-on from nowhere, but rather the effect that doing that creates doesn't sound like what is going on in OB. Obviously I should have watched/listened to Bri play it before I made that point though. |
| The Real Wizard 22.10.2004 11:44 |
Bohardy wrote: And by the way Bob, I know very well that you can hammer-on anything. For some reason I just decided to wade into this topic and spout a load of semi-crap without giving it much thought or research, in order to try and sound authoritive...lol... well, at least you were honest! I tried the down-up-down-down-up-down pattern, and that requires far too much concentration. What a ridiculous pattern... alternate picking is so much easier, because you don't have to think so much! As for the G in the OB riff, the hammer-on is the closest to the proper sound, I think. |
| Albyboy 23.10.2004 23:17 |
Especially to my dear friends Bob and Juls: given that I've always thought Brian hammered on the low G, last night I started to have doubts... Probably I'm getting out of my head but, listening to the "Queen at the Beeb" CD, I think I have heard the pick attack on that note... Listen to it and tell me if I have to give up doing all those bad things... ;-) Albyboy |
| The Real Wizard 24.10.2004 01:29 |
You're right Albyboy, the BBC version does seem to have Brian picking all the notes. Remember, this was done before the album version was recorded, so perhaps it was not long after this that Brian decided he preferred the riff to have the G hammered on. |