| Whatinthewhatthe? 19.06.2004 08:38 |
This has always been a gripe since the vinyl version of Innuendo was released: what was the real reason for editing some of the best songs on the album? It's like an unfinished painting! Think of people who discovered Queen by that album and thought those were the real versions of the songs only to find out years later when they purchased the CD that the songs were longer and better in content. I think it's the only Queen vinyl release (original, not including GH1 and 2) that featured condensed versions of songs. All of the Queen books I've got don't give a reason, so does anyone know? |
| Dicky Hart 19.06.2004 08:45 |
it a time thing, the songs got edited becuase, the time is limited on vinyl ,more so than a CD |
| iGSM 19.06.2004 09:33 |
I was quite annoyed to have 'I want it all' thinking 'Wow, this is great! Nothing can top this. NOTHING!'...then I happened to come across 'The Miracle' vinyl and fuck me dead that version was much better than the one I had. I screamed until my ears exploded. |
| Wilki Amieva 19.06.2004 11:19 |
"only to find out years later when they purchased the CD" ...Unless they have seen that statement on the back cover saying "* Songs edited for vinyl" (I know there are some edited tracks which were not marked with the *, but they are so slightly edited that I guess you were not referring to them). In order to put the full lenght versions of the songs in acceptable quality on vinyl, the album should have been double, thus having a higher price. |
| Penis - Vagina 19.06.2004 12:01 |
Yeah, supposedly it's a quality thing.. you can get the full length of the album on vinyl, but it's apparently better quality if the groove isn't so tightly engroovelated. Perhaps they made a test pressing and it sounded bad so someone suggested shortening the album. Nevertheless, the U.K. "Greatest Hits" is roughly 5 minutes longer and apparently was just fine for a single album at such a length. I would have suggested simply dropping one song rather than editing several. Perhaps 'All God's People' which so many of you don't like for whatever reason. Could have been a 'bonus' track on CD/cassette. |
| Wilki Amieva 19.06.2004 15:34 |
In fact, that is the approach they used in THE MIRACLE, but as some fans complained... |
| John S Stuart 19.06.2004 17:25 |
Dicky Hart wrote: it a time thing, the songs got edited becuase, the time is limited on vinyl ,more so than a CD. The Love Boat wrote: Yeah, supposedly it's a quality thing.. you can get the full length of the album on vinyl, but it's apparently better quality if the groove isn't so tightly engroovelated. Perhaps they made a test pressing and it sounded bad so someone suggested shortening the album.Sorry guys, but these are no more than urban myths perputated by the recording Industry - so that you would go out and purchase the same old product again and again. By the 1970's it was technically possible to store more than an hour of high quality music on an LP. (And as we all know - Innuendo clocks-in UNDER the 60 minute mark). Have a look at this link: link GOLDEN HOUR GH 556 - GOLDEN HOUR OF STATUS QUO Released June 1973, produced by John Schroeder. Now this is only ONE example. In fact there are hundreds of examples of popular music LP's being over 60 minutes long - (The Golden Hour series alone produced c50 different titles - and that was without resorting to classical music titles!). The real reason for the Innuendo edits was no more than a cynical marketing tool to double sales at the expense of loyal Queen fans. Those die-hards who purchased the CD (more than likely) bought the edited album (and vice-versa) also. Queen by now, had become past-masters at the muti-sale technique. Not only was "The Works" milked dry of musical content as edits and remixes, but as in the case of "I Want To Break Free" milked as multi-picture sleeve releases too. I should know, because I bought the lot! Now, I have no problems with the fact that the same material was constantly recycled as commercial fodder - but please let's not go down the road of artistic merit or integrity - as I am a bit more intelligent than that! In commercial terms - why sell only one unit when it is possible to shift four? As a postscript: Kind of makes a mockery of Freddie "... we would never edit" Mercury! PPS: No hate mail please! I am NOT having a go at Queen here, I am only responding honestly to an honest question - and hope that the answer helps! |
| Whatinthewhatthe? 19.06.2004 22:48 |
Yes, it does help and thanks so much! I thought Innuendo would have made a hell of a nice album package had it been a two-record set (with the gatefold full of illustrations and lyrics and two nice, glossy record sleeves for the vinyl). I was quite annoyed it wasn't released on vinyl in the US -- I had to buy it on cassette, which I still have (and it still sounds great almost thirteen -- gasp, has it been THAT long now?? -- years later) -- but I will never, ever understand record companies, though I worked for Capitol Records in the mid-80s (The Beatles' and Queen's then-new label). I even got to tour pressing plants in different states, which was a learning experience. Believe it or not, vinyl is still pressed today in the US but in very limited quantities. I still search for Queen vinyl on import or domestic whenever I can. I found a third-edition pressing (no gatefold) of Sheer Heart Attack (US release), still in the original shrinkwrap (I can tell rewraps from original shrink and this is genuine) for only $10 last weekend at a local used music shop. It will remain sealed too!! |
| deleted user 20.06.2004 05:17 |
Great post, thanks John. I really treasure your RC-articles, by the way.
As a postscript: Kind of makes a mockery of Freddie "... we would never edit" Mercury!I'm not so sure, times and contexts were different back then, weren't they ;) |
| David Jones 20.06.2004 06:48 |
Yeah, good post John, spot on! Jacko did something similar with his Invincible album - different coloured covers... I really hate when bands re-release an album a few months after the original with extra tracks on or with a bonus DVD! If you do it as a limited edition at the start, fair enough, but later on - it a rip-off! And because of this I will continue downloading these extra tracks for free. The record robdog companies can't expect it all their own way! |
| Wilki Amieva 20.06.2004 12:54 |
You are right, John, as always. I agree that the main reason is, and always has been, a commercial one. But surely it cost more, although just a bit more, to produce an hour of high quality audio on vinyl. |
| Penis - Vagina 20.06.2004 13:51 |
I know this is popular opinion, but I think we'd see a lot more releases if Queen or their record companies were only trying to milk things for whatever they could. If so, why not take a legitimate situation where something went wrong and release a new version to correct it? I'm speaking of 'Rocks' of course. If their goal is to make people buy things multiple times, here's a solid opportunity. Remaster this and I'd surely buy it again in order to have a perfect copy. I am hoping the compilations eventually become card sleeves. And 'Rocks' would be a great opportunity to correct the horrendous error as well as have both versions of cover art available... to make extra money. |
| Whatinthewhatthe? 20.06.2004 17:51 |
"Rocks" on vinyl is absolutely AWESOME. The new version of ICLWY bounces off the walls and the vinyl is quiet like a Japanese pressing. I can't understand why the 2004 Japanese CD reissues have cardboard sleeves. That can scratch a CD if one is not careful. It's like when I bought the 2001 set of 24K gold remastered CDs. They came in resealable paper sleeves with cellophane inserts -- yeech! The CDs went in jewel cases to protect them against any damage. I was also appalled at cardboard sleeves in the Crown Jewels boxset as well. Nice to look at but hell to store a CD in! |
| Penis - Vagina 20.06.2004 18:18 |
Unfortunately the vinyl version contains the same Fat Bottomed Girls error. And I don't foresee any scratching problems with the card sleeves. They come with the same type of clear inner sleeves that were used with vinyl for years. They also include replicas of the original inner sleeves but they don't come with the discs inside those. |
| Pim Derks 20.06.2004 18:25 |
About the cardsleeves: I think these releases are really aimed at collectors. I'm getting them just because they look great, not to play them. I'll probably play them once to check if they're ok, then rip them to high quality mp3s and put them back in the sleeves, which is where they'll stay. |
| Whatinthewhatthe? 20.06.2004 19:59 |
The Love Boat wrote: They come with the same type of clear inner sleeves that were used with vinyl for years. They also include replicas of the original inner sleeves but they don't come with the discs inside those.Almost all Queen vinyl (US) had printed lyrics on the glossy inner sleeves (Queen I, ANATO and Jazz were the exceptions). The clear plastic sleeve was with the Mobile Fidelity half-speed masters (try and find one of those now!) and some imports other than UK. What did you think of the vinyl boxset that came out in the UK? I was very impressed with that packaging! |
| David Jones 23.06.2004 14:37 |
Did the Innuendo cassette also have the edited songs on too? And didn't somebody once say that some of the edits were better than the album versions? |
| Daburcor? 23.06.2004 15:51 |
Why is it so hard to track down this album on vinyl?!?!!? GAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!! *ahem* Carry on. |
| Whatinthewhatthe? 23.06.2004 20:00 |
The cassette has the full, unedited versions...thank God! Yes, the vinyl is VERY hard to find, but please check Ebay or your local used record shop. I've seen a lot of versions from different countries (all with the edited versions like the UK LP). |
| Wiley 24.06.2004 01:37 |
I used to have an Innuendo CD from Mexico which also had the edited versions (I'm mexican and live in Mexico, btw). I had it for over 7 or 8 years and then I bought an European CD version and was shocked to hear these "new" versions (for me). Specially, Bijou, which is just over one minute long in it's edited version. Actually, I used to like this version more than the complete track. Wiley |
| David Jones 24.06.2004 14:42 |
Bet thats rare! > Why is it so hard to track down this album on vinyl?!?!!? GAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!! Its down the market where I live for two quid! |
| Adam Baboolal 24.06.2004 15:24 |
Now hang on a minute... Wasn't Innuendo edited on Vinyl because of the amount of bass they wanted? I remember reading very in-depth about the grooves having to be widened for the bass they wanted, which meant shortening tracks due to more space being taken up by the wider than usual grooves. I think I read that in Record Collector. I'm definitely sure of it. Peace, Adam. |
| Whatinthewhatthe? 24.06.2004 19:08 |
Wiley wrote: I used to have an Innuendo CD from Mexico which also had the edited versions (I'm mexican and live in Mexico, btw). I had it for over 7 or 8 years and then I bought an European CD version and was shocked to hear these "new" versions (for me). Specially, Bijou, which is just over one minute long in it's edited version. Actually, I used to like this version more than the complete track. WileyThe Mexican CD was edited? How horrible! I know the Mexican vinyl was (I saw a copy on Ebay a few weeks ago and it went for $35 US dollars, good price for a sealed copy!). I really hope we see this released on DVD-A in the near future. Bijou would sound so good in that format! |
| GonnaUseMyPrisoners 24.06.2004 23:05 |
John Stuart: "The real reason for the Innuendo edits was no more than a cynical marketing tool to double sales at the expense of loyal Queen fans. Those die-hards who purchased the CD (more than likely) bought the edited album (and vice-versa) also." WHAT. EVER. That's easy to prove, I'm sure. Happy Cynics Day. Enjoy your purchases. On the other hand, Thanks Adam for breathing some possibility of reality into this thread. |
| Saint Jiub 24.06.2004 23:54 |
It would be a stepfordian stretch of the imagination to belive that Queen Productions does not give Queen fans good reason to be cynical ... and John has generally proven himself as an almost always reliable source of Queen information. The editing of songs to allegedly improved bass response strikes me as a marketing scam that only Queen productions could manufacture. |
| Daburcor? 25.06.2004 00:06 |
David Jones wrote: Bet thats rare! > Why is it so hard to track down this album on vinyl?!?!!? GAAAAAAAHHHHH!!!!! Its down the market where I live for two quid!I wish it were that easy to find here in the USA... :'( |
| cmulders 25.06.2004 07:07 |
You can only fit 50 minutes of audio on a vinyl record without losing quality (put on any more and you get 128 MP3), so they had to make edits. And now they're nice rarities, aren't they? |
| Adam Baboolal 25.06.2004 07:48 |
"The editing of songs to allegedly improved bass response strikes me as a marketing scam that only Queen productions could manufacture." Record Collector reported it. Not anyone from QP. It's actually a fact and I'm not surprised you don't believe it cause it's pretty strange. But it is a very real situation. Peace, Adam. |
| Wilki Amieva 25.06.2004 10:23 |
It is possible that people adding to the threads do not read the previous posts on it? Sometimes it does seem likely. Hmmm. Well, changing the subject: Adam, I have also read somewhere what you are referring, although if it was on Record Collector I do not recall. I know that is technically right. But I believe still that marketing was the main reason. By the way, John is known for his contribution to that magazine. I am also very interested on that edited Mexican CD. ¿Can someone provide more data of it? I know there is also a Mexican MADE IN HEAVEN CD with the banned version of Let Me Live (also on the US advance listening cassette). |
| Adam Baboolal 25.06.2004 11:47 |
Ah Wilki, I've been dying to find that MIH cd!! Wiley know's something about it as he has it! Just to get a great MP3 (320kb) would do me. But I guess I'd treasure the cd. Peace, Adam. |
| John S Stuart 25.06.2004 11:51 |
Just another poll question... Queen Greatest Hits 1981 (Vinyl - 57:53) v. Innuendo 1991 (vinyl) Was the quality of Greatest Hits (Vinyl) really that inferior? Bassiest tracks? Another One Bites The Dust, Don't Stop Me Now, Crazy Little Thing Called Love, Now I'm Here, Play The Game v. Headlong, Ride The Wild Wind, & The Hitman. Sorry if I appeared cynical, but the Record Industry is about SELLING music (or units if you wish to use commercial language) - that is how it survives. So it may not have been the ONLY reason, but I would still argue Market Forces as the MAIN reason. As for the technobabble from Record Collector, to quote Freddie "...Don't believe everything you read in the Bible". Besides, I think this is a mute argument anyway - and certainly NOT a musical one. In the past such albums (as suggested above) would have been made available as a double LP gatefold set. Afterall, Queen had previously released "Live Killers" as a double, so why not "Innuendo"? Forgive me for the suggestion, but musically speaking, could you imagine "The Beatles" actually cutting the tracks on the legendary "White Album" - for NO other reason than to fit on a single LP? As for musical integrity; If quality was REALLY an issue, at least dropping one track from the LP (providing a complete 11 track vinyl disc instead of 12 edits), and providing the additional 12th song as a bonus CD extra track - that would have been much more honest - after all by 1991 it was common practice for CD's to have extra bonus tracks anyway! Finally; I know it could be argued "12 tracks are a bit limited for a double LP", and this is true, but additional fillers could have padded such a set out from the subsequently released non-album B-sides!! |
| Saint Jiub 25.06.2004 12:30 |
As I previously suggested ... the alleged improved bass response was likely only a marketing scam. I think Record Collector probably only reported what they were told. |
| Daburcor? 25.06.2004 16:22 |
Yippie!!! I finally bought the 2004 Japanese 'Mini Vinyl' of Innuendo!!! I can't WAIT until I get it! :D |
| Whatinthewhatthe? 25.06.2004 18:33 |
Where?? |
| Daburcor? 25.06.2004 20:41 |
I got it at link ! Free shipping!!! YAAAAAAAAAY!!! *ahem* |
| Whatinthewhatthe? 25.06.2004 21:23 |
OY!! You must have hit their Imports sale. Well done!! |
| Daburcor? 25.06.2004 23:37 |
Maybe I did! Either way, It only cost me $29.99 and that was less that what I was willing to pay at CD Universe. :) |
| Adam Baboolal 26.06.2004 07:35 |
"As I previously suggested ... the alleged improved bass response was likely only a marketing scam. I think Record Collector probably only reported what they were told." What an insult to the magazine. They're not the trashy type that reports what they're told. Their magazine is one that does proper research. Just look at the Queen reports on rarities and the history of Queen. I'm sure they knew. Peace, Adam. |
| Whatinthewhatthe? 26.06.2004 08:30 |
I agree. That and Goldmine are two magazines the collecting public rely on and they do more than a decent job at giving information on rare and not-so-rare records. I love their reviews and feature articles and have been a subscriber for many years! |
| Saint Jiub 27.06.2004 00:40 |
Record Collector typically reports on musical archive history than audiophile issues. Why should Record Collector question the bass propaganda (and risk alienating a good source of information) especially when Record Collector is more concerned with musical archive history? Adam - do you really truly believe that the editing of Innuendo on LP was necessary for better bass response? |