| darrell 11.08.2016 15:49 |
What Queen had a member leave the band during the 1980s? Whether it was Freddie, Brian, Roger or John, then would we have had The Works, A Kind of Magic, The Miracle and Innuendo as they are now? |
| Oscar J 11.08.2016 16:24 |
Maybe we wouldn't. Not a big loss though, cept for Innuendo (the song). :) Roger Taylor became increasingly irrelevant to the band in the mid-late 80's, due to his drumming duties being reduced to 2 - 3 numbers per album, and that he didn't do much of the songwriting for the albums (not so much that he was vital to the band anyway). So I think they could've done without him, or maybe Deacon. This is all speculation of course. |
| Sebastian 11.08.2016 16:39 |
Oscar J wrote: Roger Taylor became increasingly irrelevant to the band in the mid-late 80's, due to his drumming duties being reduced to 2 - 3 numbers per albumCompletely untrue: The Works has Rog drumming on six numbers (thrice more than 2 and twice more than 3) Magic has Rog drumming on five or six numbers (ditto). Miracle has Rog drumming on six or seven numbers (far more than 2 - 3). Not to mention he contributed to synthesisers, backing vocals, songwriting and the occasional guitar. |
| Oscar J 11.08.2016 17:58 |
Well, it felt a lot less since his drumming on those albums were so insignificant. But as usual you have problems with seeing past numbers (guess I shouldn't have mentioned any). Many of those songs have drum machines with occasional overdubs by Roger. Furthermore the drum parts he actually played were so standard pretty much any drummer could have played them (bar Innuendo and Was It All Worth It and maybe one or two other songs). The Works has some (albeit uninspired) acoustic drum work on it, but I didn't think of that one primarily as that's more early-mid 80's than mid-late 80's. Magic has Princes of The Universe and WWTLF with raw, acoustic sounding drum performances. One Vision has some drum work by Roger, but has a lot of programmed drum samples on top. The rest of the album sounds like they have programmed drums mostly. The Miracle has two songs in which the drums sound completely real and acoustic. The rest either have drum machines or drum samples trigged on top of Rogers performances (or if it's the other way around). Innuendo has completely real drums in one track (the title track), programmed drums on a lot of them, and those weird triggered samples on the rest. Roger chips in some real overdubs throughout, but nothing too major. Wouldn't you agree this is a significant decrease in terms of drumming duties compared to, say, their early-mid 70's stuff? Both in terms of number of songs performed, but in particular: the extent and complexity of the drumming work and therefore the rehearsal time, which I would assume might have been several times longer. Queen: Roger drums on all 10 tracks. Queen II: Roger drums on all but two tracks. 9/11, if you will. SHA: Great (!) performances on 11 out of 13 tracks. Etc ... |
| Sebastian 11.08.2016 18:20 |
Oscar J wrote: But as usual you have problems with seeing past numbersNo, I haven't got any problem with seeing past numbers. However, if a claim's number-based (such as '2 - 3 tracks per album') then numbers are what I'll use to see if said claim is correct or not ... and in this case, it's not. Oscar J wrote: (guess I shouldn't have mentioned any).Probably not. Oscar J wrote: Many of those songs have drum machines with occasional overdubs by Roger.'Many' is not the same as 'most' or the same as 'all but 2-3 per album.' Oscar J wrote: Furthermore the drum parts he actually played were so standard pretty much any drummer could have played themThat's a completely different point, and one I actually partly agree with. Oscar J wrote: Magic has Princes of The Universe and WWTLF with raw, acoustic sounding drum performances. One Vision has some drum work by Roger, but has a lot of programmed drum samples on top.But still most of OV is real drumming (though fairly basic for Roger's standards indeed). Samples are mostly in the mid part, which is a bit of a patchwork quilt. Oscar J wrote: The rest of the album sounds like they have programmed drums mostly.'Gimme the Prize' has real drums; 'Don't Lose Your Head' and 'A Kind of Magic' are more of a blend, with some machines and some (probably looped) real drumming. I do agree the songs John wrote or co-wrote are more machine-led, unfortunately. Oscar J wrote: The Miracle has two songs in which the drums sound completely real and acoustic.Let's see: 'Khashoggi's Ship', 'Was It All Worth It', 'The Miracle', 'Scandal' ... that's more than two. Add to that things like 'I Want It All', where there is some programming but most of it is still real. I think, again, only John's co-written songs plus 'Party' are chiefly machines. Roger's songs have a mixture of acoustic and programmed. But he still played. Of course, he didn't do as much as in the 70's, but he did play on way more than '2-3 tracks per album.' Oscar J wrote: Innuendo has completely real drums in one track (the title track)'Don't Try So Hard' drums are also completely real. 'Bijou' could technically count since the percussion there (some cymbal rolls) sounds authentic. The rest consists of blends between Rog and machines, but Rog is predominant on most cases (e.g. 'Show'). Oscar J wrote: Wouldn't you agree this is a significant decrease in terms of drumming duties compared to, say, their early-mid 70's stuff?I'm not arguing that point. I'm arguing the use of '2-3 tracks' when he clearly played on loads more. Canada's far smaller than Russia, but that doesn't make it a tiny country. A 6 ft 8 in tall person is shorter than record guiness holders, but they're not by any means 'short' or a 'dwarf.' A 300-lbs man is far lighter than mordibly obese extreme cases, but they're not by any means slim or underweight. Rog's drumming in the mid-to-late-80's is far less prominent than in the 70's, but it's far more than '2-3 tracks per album.' |
| Sebastian 11.08.2016 18:20 |
. |
| Oscar J 11.08.2016 18:50 |
I think Gimme The Prize is very much a mix between some real drums and samples. One Visions drum sound is triggered throughout the song as far as I can tell, though the base performance is probably Rogers. So yeah, 2 or 3 cases with mainly Roger behind the kit, 4 if you're generous. The Miracle might have real drums, though it's quite hard to tell because of the mixing. It might be looped as well, with some overdubs thrown in. Scandal sounds programmed mostly. I Want It All probably has a mix of real and triggered drums, a bit like The Show Must Go On. I guess one can count that, which would make 3, possibly 4 if The Miracle is a complete Roger performance throughout. Don't Try So Hard has real drums indeed. And as you say there are some more songs with a Roger + drum machine blend, but I think that might mostly be Roger adding occasional drum beats and fills over drum parts already programmed in demos and embryo versions of the songs. I would say I'm not too far off, depending on how generous one wants to be when counting. Nevertheless the main point was that his drumming duties were significantly reduced, with the "2-3" figure being more of a guesstimate than an anally retentive analysis. "Canada's far smaller than Russia, but that doesn't make it a tiny country. A 6 ft 8 in tall person is shorter than record guiness holders, but they're not by any means 'short' or a 'dwarf.' A 300-lbs man is far lighter than mordibly obese extreme cases, but they're not by any means slim or underweight. " Nice straw men. |
| Saint Jiub 11.08.2016 20:24 |
Queen sure had a lot of hit singles in their later years with absolutely no contribution from Roger: Radio Ga Ga One Vison A Kind of Magic The Invisible Man Breakthru Innuendo These Are the Days of Our Lives Heaven for Everyone Yep Roger was useless ... |
| Sebastian 11.08.2016 20:49 |
Oscar J wrote: I think Gimme The Prize is very much a mix between some real drums and samples. Scandal sounds programmed mostly.I think they're both real. It'd be nice to analyse them both in more detail and of course I'll be glad to concede if I'm wrong, just as I'll be glad to keep my stance if I'm right. Not everything that doesn't sound 'in your face' is programmed. Oscar J wrote: I would say I'm not too far off, depending on how generous one wants to be when counting.There is indeed a subjective component there ... if you wanna disqualify everything that's got even a few bars of programmed drums (e.g. 'I Want It All' or 'The Hitman') then perhaps we can get closer to your '2-3' guesstimate, but that would still be, in my opinion, a misrepresentation of what his drumming consisted of. There's a big difference between a song that's completely Roger-free (e.g. 'One Year of Love' or 'My Baby Does Me') and one where there might be some machines but Rog still played a lot (e.g. 'Show Must Go On' or even 'Khashoggi's Ship'). I wonder how many 70's songs we would absolutely suspect to be full of drum machines (even though they were not) had they been released in the 80's or 90's... Oscar J wrote: "Canada's far smaller than Russia, but that doesn't make it a tiny country. A 6 ft 8 in tall person is shorter than record guiness holders, but they're not by any means 'short' or a 'dwarf.' A 300-lbs man is far lighter than mordibly obese extreme cases, but they're not by any means slim or underweight. " Nice straw men.I don't really see them as straw men, since they are illustrating my point: I absolutely agree with your point on Roger's drumming having been diminished both in terms of actual playing (seconds or measures per album would be a far more accurate quantifier than counting 'songs', since that certainly depends on whether you wanna count or dismiss all of it based on subjective measurements), but I disagree that he did as little as '2-3 tracks' per album, and that was my point. The same can be applied to Brian's guitar or John's bass ... they played a lot less (in terms of layers or bars, etc), but that doesn't mean that, as some people say, 'Hot Space' only features Brian on two or three songs. Piano duties were indeed largely reduced compared to the early days (e.g. 'Jazz' has piano on six songs, and on five of those it's the main instrument of the backing track, whereas 'Innuendo' only has piano on, indeed, '2-3 tracks', and none of them is a piano-based song, it's just an overdub), although as with guitar, drums and bass, the rate of reduction (is that even a term?) was not as dramatic as some may think at first. |
| Vocal harmony 12.08.2016 07:27 |
To answer the original question, I think it's obvious that if any band member had left (been replaced) then none of the albums that followed would have been what we now have. Looking at how the mid 80's albums developed and sounded, rather than trying to imagine a replaced band member, maybe the real question should be what if a different guy was sat in the produces chair? |
| The Fairy King 12.08.2016 07:49 |
Seems like your focusing on the wrong instrument. Apart from Roger's drumming, his voice is more significant. The band would suffer from missing the high end of the spectrum on backing vocals/harmonies. |
| luthorn 12.08.2016 08:10 |
I wonder why did Roger stop drumming in the 80s? |
| Sebastian 12.08.2016 08:40 |
luthorn wrote: I wonder why did Roger stop drumming in the 80s?He didn't. He still played on the majority of tracks. |
| Togg 12.08.2016 08:57 |
People here aways seem to think Roger did nothing on the later albums.... Like many of us through the 80's we all became somewhat obsessed with drum machines and synths, it was just another way of making music that was exciting at the time, Roger aways considered himself a musicain over a drummer at least by that point that was his stance anyway, so I think he wanted to experiment with machines and make Queen recordes sound more like a lot of the stuff that was coming from the radio at the time, in a way you had to be there to understand it, looking back it appears he stopped playing drums, but in reality he had more to do with those albums than he had in the early days. more writing, more guitar more singing and more production work. |
| Another Roger (re) 12.08.2016 09:13 |
Queen without Roger Taylor from 84-91 would have been quite a disaster. He had the main idea for some of the biggest hits like AKOM, Radio GaGa, Breakthru, Heaven For Everyone, These are the days of our lives. In this period Freddie actually didnt have lof his own hits. But he did some work on AKOM and Radio GaGa f.ex. |
| Sebastian 12.08.2016 10:35 |
Togg wrote: in reality he had more to do with those albums than he had in the early days. more writing, more guitar more singing and more production work.I'd dispute some of that, though... Guitar: He did play a bit of it in the 80's, but it was chiefly the odd overdub here and there (e.g. 'Calling All Girls') or a four-second long harmony ('A Kind of Magic'), rather than playing rhythm for an entire song ('Drowse', 'Sheer Heart Attack'). Vocals: He all but stopped singing lead on the albums after 'Hot Space' (and even 'Action', though a bona fide duet on stage, was more of a Fred lead with Rog on all BV's in the studio), and his harmony work also diminished compared to the 70's. On early albums, his voice was really prominent even on songs that didn't feature him on lead (e.g. 'Somebody to Love', ''39'), but in the 80's not so much ... he's certainly there on things like 'The Show Must Go On' and 'Who Wants to Live Forever' but he was nowhere near as prominent. I haven't quantified his BV input (but really want to so watch this space) but I'd venture to anticipate he actually sang *more* in the 70's than he did in the 80's. Songs with just one backing vocalist were somewhat scarcer in the 70's ('Love of My Life', 'Fight from the Inside', 'Leaving Home Ain't Easy') than in the 80's and beyond ('Staying Power', 'Scandal', 'Delilah', 'Break Free', 'One Year of Love', 'Man on the Prowl', even 'The Hitman'), and the same could be said about non-instrumental songs with no backing vocals ('Spread Your Wings' and 'My Melancholy Blues' vs 'Is This the World We Created', 'Gimme the Prize', 'My Life Has Been Saved', 'It's a Beautiful Day'). In fact, Roger's role as vocalist diminished even on his own compositions: in the 70's he usually sang lead or co-lead and he'd either feature prominently on harmonies or just sing them all; from 'Hot Space' onwards... - 'Calling All Girls' features Fred on all vocals (Rog did sing BV's live, and the sound changes dramatically). - 'Action This Day' does feature Rog on all harmonies, but Fred sings lead. - 'Radio Ga Ga' has Rog on harmonies but not on lead. - 'Machines' rarely features Rog on vocals bar that robot thing. - 'A Kind of Magic' is mainly just Fred plus Fred plus Fred. Rog clearly sings the top line on 'done' but that's it. - 'Don't Lose Your Head' seems not to have Rog there, or very little of him. - 'The Invisible Man' has him doing the odd line here and there. - On 'Breakthru' he sings some really gorgeous BV's, but if we put them all together they add up to about ten seconds tops. - 'Ride the Wild Wind' has some commentary and that's it. - 'Days of Our Lives' is just Fred plus Fred (plus Fred?) Compare with the 70's: - 'Modern Times Rock 'n' Roll': Lead. - 'Loser in the End': Lead and all harmonies. - 'Tenement Funster': Lead and all harmonies. - 'I'm in Love with My Car': Lead and (IMO) all harmonies. Even those who claim Brian and Fred are there will most likely admit Roger's still very prominent on BV's. - 'Drowse': Lead and octave harmonies. - 'Sheer Heart Attack': All harmonies and the odd co-lead (e.g. 'ticulate'). - 'Fight from the Inside': Lead and all harmonies. - 'Fun It': Co-lead and either all or most harmonies. - 'More of That Jazz': Lead and all harmonies. |
| Oscar J 12.08.2016 12:59 |
Sebastian: I'm fine with settling that Roger played a lot less in terms of overall time played, complexity, as well as numbers per album, though the number of songs he actually played on might be higher than I stated when taking drum machine + Roger and looped Roger performances into account.
Another Roger (re) wrote: Queen without Roger Taylor from 84-91 would have been quite a disaster. He had the main idea for some of the biggest hits like AKOM, Radio GaGa, Breakthru, Heaven For Everyone, These are the days of our lives.Kinda average songs IMO, though Breakthru and TATDOOL are enjoyable. In fact I'd argue the focus on those radio hits were "disastrous" to Queens overall musical achievements. If Queen's superior songwriters, Brian and Freddie, were more focused and productive during that period, we would have had a lot more interesting music. I rate Roger highly in particular for his drumming and singing. When he did less of both in the 80's, I think it was a big loss. |
| Sebastian 12.08.2016 13:32 |
Oscar J wrote: Sebastian: I'm fine with settling that Roger played a lot less in terms of overall time played, complexity, as well as numbers per album, though the number of songs he actually played on might be higher than I stated when taking drum machine + Roger and looped Roger performances into account.Perfect, I agree with every word. |
| Oscar J 12.08.2016 15:06 |
The Fairy King wrote: Seems like your focusing on the wrong instrument. Apart from Roger's drumming, his voice is more significant.I don't think it is. His ability to be a musical chameleon behind the kit in their best albums was always more important than his (amazing) backning vox. |
| mooghead 12.08.2016 15:57 |
'Any' band without 'any' member from the past 'whenever'.... new question please. |
| AlbaNo1 12.08.2016 17:34 |
mooghead wrote: 'Any' band without 'any' member from the past 'whenever'.... new question please.Feel free to ask the question |
| matt z 12.08.2016 21:04 |
DIO without DIO would've been called TRIO... true story. it happened. Alternate Universe Brah |
| Sebastian 13.08.2016 00:06 |
Doduo with an extra head is Dodrio. |