| thomasquinn 32989 07.01.2015 07:28 |
At least 12 killed and 10 injured, 4 in critical condition. Publisher and editor among those killed. Wounded policeman brutally executed. Two masked assailants armed with Kalashnikov assault rifles and, according to people on the scene, a rocket launcher. They are still at large. 3000 policemen have been mobilized in Paris to assist with the manhunt and protect all cultural and journalistic sites in the city. http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-30710883 Charlie Hebdo is a left-wing satirical magazine that has traditionally been hated by the (far) right and all kinds of religious groups. Ironically, the far right is losing no time (and is barely able to supress the smiles on their ugly faces) trying to exploit this to their own political ends. It might serve people well to consider that IS is itself an ultra-conservative far-right organization. link #JeSuisCharlie ("I am Charlie") link alt="Enfin Libre" height="635" width="500"> Enfin Libre (Free at last) link alt="Il faut voiler Charlie Hebdo" height="344" width="250"> Il faut voiler "Charlie Hebdo" ("Charlie Hebdo" must be censored) link alt="100 lashes" height="287" width="220"> 100 coups de fouet si voes n'êtes pas morts de rire (100 lashes with the whip if you haven't died laughing) |
| Zamidoo 07.01.2015 14:17 |
It's devastating. |
| Saint Jiub 07.01.2015 19:40 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Ironically, TQ is losing no time (and is barely able to supress the smile on this ugly face) trying to exploit this to his own political ends. |
| thomasquinn 32989 08.01.2015 00:18 |
I see that you're bothered more by criticism of the far-right trying to hijack this for their own ends than by this terrible attack on freedom. It says a lot about you that you try to bait me, but don't bother to simply say that this attack was a terrible attack on freedom. Think about that for a moment. You only come crawling out from under your rock when there's an opportunity to 'defend' the (far-)right. Pathetic. |
| brENsKi 08.01.2015 10:40 |
Casper you are so fond of calling anyone in disagreement with you as "Rock dwellers". perhaps it's time YOU saw the bigger picture. 1] In almost every single dispute on this planet you can find religion lurking in the smelly recesses. Islam today is where Christianity was when it was 1,000 yrs new. 2] In comparative terms a 1400 year old religion is the cultural equivalent of a moody teenager - knowing everything about everything, while the "grown-ups" know f-all. Just like Christianity before it, once Islam reaches the 2,000 year age point it'll be more chilled and relaxed in its view of other religions. 3] Far right politics is nOT the problem - no matter what YOU would have people think. When we elect a far-govt Govt - it's our fault - we voted for them, - no-one votes for IS/ISIS/ISL. 4] Your left-wing rhetoric is futile - finding a far-right link to everything bad is not the way to go - it'll not achieve a thing - other than alienate those you want to convince. 5] you'd have a much better chance of convincing the "fence-sitters" if your missives didn't come across so "know it all" and "preachy" - and before you jump down my throat - that's not meant to insult. I'm just saying try and gear what you're saying to the reader, and not a university "Political Studies" Lecture Hall but i will leave you with one thought - isn't it strange how the "left wing" are equally guilty of trying to indoctrinate others to their "correct" views? how about these people chill and let us make our own minds up - people are more likely to come to a sound decision that they are happy with if they're not being coerced into sharing someone else's "louder" opinion. stands back...expecting the usual "bigot" "rock dweller" insults. |
| Saint Jiub 08.01.2015 14:14 |
As usual, Caspar is so utterly impressed by his own "knowledge" of politics and history, that he cannot see past the blind spot of his own confirmation bias. link LOL |
| Costa86 08.01.2015 15:18 |
They were members of Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula (AQAP), not IS supporters. The attack is utterly despicable, deplorable and shameful. It is good to see people unite in the face of this terror, and stand up to those who perpetuate it. Terrorism is a cancer which has to be addressed, as it is being. This said, it is the liberal, capitalist policies of Western governments which have contributed to the evolution of Muslin extremism. Of course it's not simply a case of the West being the sole cause of the problem, but they are contributors to its roots. The power-hungry people behind the curtain - those who have existed for centuries - are the ones who gave birth to the hatred radicalised Muslims have for us, and as a consequence, to the reciprocal actions which the West has had to take. |
| Donna13 08.01.2015 17:50 |
"The power-hungry people behind the curtain - those who have existed for centuries - are the ones who gave birth to the hatred radicalised Muslims have for us, and as a consequence, to the reciprocal actions which the West has had to take." Hatred and evil acts of violence by radical Muslims are supposedly someone else's fault? If this were true (your logic that the hatred is caused by the West), then why are radical Muslims killing their own people? No, I think it is probably something else (which normal peace loving people cannot fathom), that is causing the violence. But let's blame the people who are to blame: the radical Muslims. They are supposedly human and have control over their decisions. If they choose to kill innocent people, then they are to blame and nobody else is to blame. |
| The Real Wizard 08.01.2015 22:09 |
Before 9/11, Al Qaeda was the enemy - a fringe movement of about 100 men. Now that we've been meddling in middle east affairs full tilt, we now have an entire ISIS state. All to appease the lobbyists in Washington who profit the most from war. The cartoons don't help. But to call this an attack on freedom of speech is to completely, completely miss the point. Want it to stop? Stop electing politicians who put lobbyists before everything else. If you think that sounds unrealistic - asking Islamic fundamentalist militants to introduce logic to their vernacular is even more unlikely. They've been in the dark ages since the 12th century and haven't been bothering the west until recently. We created them, and they're here to stay. |
| Donna13 08.01.2015 23:46 |
Why does the blame always have to be shifted? It is not the fault of anyone but those who are commiting the acts of violence. Sick religious ideas such as killing non-believers - that's what Islamic extremism is about. It doesn't have anything to do with democratic elections. They don't want individuals thinking for themselves! Besides pure evil, I cannot know how else to label Islamic extremist violence. |
| Costa86 09.01.2015 04:24 |
The Real Wizard wrote: Before 9/11, Al Qaeda was the enemy - a fringe movement of about 100 men. Now that we've been meddling in middle east affairs full tilt, we now have an entire ISIS state. All to appease the lobbyists in Washington who profit the most from war. The cartoons don't help. But to call this an attack on freedom of speech is to completely, completely miss the point. Want it to stop? Stop electing politicians who put lobbyists before everything else. If you think that sounds unrealistic - asking Islamic fundamentalist militants to introduce logic to their vernacular is even more unlikely. They've been in the dark ages since the 12th century and haven't been bothering the west until recently. We created them, and they're here to stay.Well said. |
| Costa86 09.01.2015 04:26 |
Donna13 wrote: Why does the blame always have to be shifted? It is not the fault of anyone but those who are commiting the acts of violence. Sick religious ideas such as killing non-believers - that's what Islamic extremism is about. It doesn't have anything to do with democratic elections. They don't want individuals thinking for themselves! Besides pure evil, I cannot know how else to label Islamic extremist violence.The work of individual terrorists may be down to pure "evil" and psychopathy. But the spur of the ideology of modern Muslim fundamentalism does have a reason behind it, which is both historical and current. Those who don't know their history are bound to repeat it. The powers that be in the West have committed atrocities against these people - and this is one way in which they know how to react. This does not dimish the seriousness of their terrorist actions, but it gives insight into the greater problem, where nothing is black and white. |
| brENsKi 09.01.2015 07:33 |
it's far to easy to "blame someone else". we are ALL accountable for our own deeds. no debate and no apologist rhetoric can every excuse or sidestep the fact: anyone who kills innocent people in the name of their "God" is pure evil. |
| Oscar J 09.01.2015 08:02 |
Out of the world's 7 billion people, about 6 billion are members of religious communities. 2,3 billion are Christians. 1,5 billion are Muslims. How many of these people are prone to violence? Criminal? How many of them just want to live their lives in peace and freedom? How many help people in need, accommodate refugees? Man schools and hospitals? I assume you know that many of the worst crimes against humanity were conducted in the name of atheistic ideologies - communism, nazism and fascism. Religions are like hammers - they are useful tools, but can be used for evil purposes. As can most other things. |
| Costa86 09.01.2015 10:05 |
Oscar J wrote: Out of the world's 7 billion people, about 6 billion are members of religious communities. 2,3 billion are Christians. 1,5 billion are Muslims. How many of these people are prone to violence? Criminal? How many of them just want to live their lives in peace and freedom? How many help people in need, accommodate refugees? Man schools and hospitals? I assume you know that many of the worst crimes against humanity were conducted in the name of atheistic ideologies - communism, nazism and fascism. Religions are like hammers - they are useful tools, but can be used for evil purposes. As can most other things.Religion is the main vehicle which they are using to drive their hate, but it did not cause the hate. Islam doesn't tell you to blow yourself up or kill people. The hate they have was caused by other things. That they vent it this way is obviously wrong, and they should certainly either be executed or imprisoned for life. Most of these terrorists came to be radicalised in their search for some meaning. The two terrorists who attacked the Charlie Hebdo offices were orphans born in France, and weren't even raised on a heavy diet of Islam. They found themselves in a situation which made them socially alientated, and perhaps they wanted to find something to believe in - consequently they got attracted to the ideologies of Muslim terrorists, were radicalised, trained, and then committed this atrocity. The impetus behind the rise in modern Muslim extremism is hatred of the West caused by actions of political elites who do everything for power, with no regard for anything else. The ideology of hate thus emerged, got intrinsically linked to the religion of Islam, and attracts to it hundreds of lost, angry souls looking for purpose and something to believe in. |
| Oscar J 09.01.2015 10:32 |
^ Exactly, that was my point. |
| Donna13 09.01.2015 11:58 |
"The impetus behind the rise in modern Muslim extremism is hatred of the West caused by actions of political elites who do everything for power, with no regard for anything else. The ideology of hate thus emerged, got intrinsically linked to the religion of Islam, and attracts to it hundreds of lost, angry souls looking for purpose and something to believe in." This is still shifting the blame. What do terrorists want? Power. If they were against power as a concept, then they would not be committing acts of violence in a desperate attempt to feel powerful. Also, anger at the West does not explain radical Muslims killing other Muslims. |
| brENsKi 09.01.2015 12:23 |
Costa86 wrote: The impetus behind the rise in modern Muslim extremism is hatred of the West caused by actions of political elites who do everything for power, with no regard for anything else. The ideology of hate thus emerged, got intrinsically linked to the religion of Islam, and attracts to it hundreds of lost, angry souls looking for purpose and something to believe in.or, alternatively - these people who perform acts of terror in the name of God are subhuman cretins with no intelligent thoughts to call their own, and even less thought for the life and wellbeing of the rest of humankind? in short - they're c*nts. |
| Doga 09.01.2015 12:34 |
brENsKi wrote:Yes Brenski, they are cunts, at many levels, first and more important, for kill other humans beigns.Costa86 wrote: The impetus behind the rise in modern Muslim extremism is hatred of the West caused by actions of political elites who do everything for power, with no regard for anything else. The ideology of hate thus emerged, got intrinsically linked to the religion of Islam, and attracts to it hundreds of lost, angry souls looking for purpose and something to believe in.or, alternatively - these people who perform acts of terror in the name of God are subhuman cretins with no intelligent thoughts to call their own, and even less thought for the life and wellbeing of the rest of humankind? in short - they're c*nts. And second, because they are given weapons to the western cunts, how many people are saying right now things like '' the muslims are the worst'' or ''we should expulse the muslims''. Don't forget that there are evil people and good people in Occident and in the Muslim comunity. And evil people from both sides want to make the good people believe that in the other comunity EVERYBODY is evil, or at least, not as good as them. |
| Saint Jiub 09.01.2015 13:09 |
Donna13 wrote: This is still shifting the blame. Also, anger at the West does not explain radical Muslims killing other Muslims.It also does not explain attacks on girls in Nigeria, Afghanistan and Pakistan by radical Muslims intent on preventing the education of these girls. |
| brENsKi 09.01.2015 17:20 |
Doga wrote: Yes Brenski, they are cunts, at many levels, first and more important, for kill other humans beigns. And second, because they are given weapons to the western cunts, how many people are saying right now things like '' the muslims are the worst'' or ''we should expulse the muslims''.yes, but you have to try to understand that this ^^^ reaction is the normal reaction of decent people who are now scared. my own personal view? i wouldn't want to expel anyone on grounds of religion. but i would EXTINGUISH these nasty c*nts who kill for god. and regardless of whatever the "west" did to provoke these c*nts - the barbarism of stoning women, and depriving females equal rights in every aspect of life - is NOT caused by the West. They do this because they are bigoted backward thick and above all scared that someone - probably a highly-superior (in intellect) free-thinking woman - will expose their ideology for the lying fucking myth that it is. |
| Doga 09.01.2015 18:20 |
brENsKi wrote: and regardless of whatever the "west" did to provoke these c*nts - the barbarism of stoning women, and depriving females equal rights in every aspect of life - is NOT caused by the West.No, that is provoked by the lack of education, a christian with the same level of education and the same quality of life of the african countries will probably do the same, or burn some witches. And these countries are poor and suffer war because a few people in the goverment and the heads of a few big companies want that. ISIS, Al-.Qaeda and terrorism were created by the west. Dig a little. |
| Saint Jiub 09.01.2015 20:30 |
1979: The then Soviet Union invades Afghanistan. 1980: Soviet troops set up a puppet regime in Kabul, the Afghan capital. The US, Pakistan, China, Iran and Saudi Arabia offer support to anti-communist Muslim Afghan fighters (mujahideen) who opposed the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan. Moral of the story? Weakly accept when Russia invades a European or Asian country? |
| Saint Jiub 09.01.2015 21:30 |
The origins of ISIS, Al-.Qaeda and terrorism were created by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab in the 1800's with the establishment of Wahhabi Islam. http://atheism.about.com/od/islamicsects/a/wahhabi.htm |
| brENsKi 10.01.2015 04:26 |
Panchgani wrote: The origins of ISIS, Al-.Qaeda and terrorism were created by Muhammad ibn Abd al-Wahhab in the 1800's with the establishment of Wahhabi Islam. http://atheism.about.com/od/islamicsects/a/wahhabi.htmthat's as maybe. but then you could also argue that the origins of killing non-believers pre-dates Saladin. How far in the past do we go back to when apportioning some level of responsibility? - otherwise it's also a little like blaming the Greeks and Indians (who built the first true roads) for ALL car accidents. In all truth it's easy to blame the past - but the only people you can wholly attribute these atrocities to are those carrying them out now. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 10.01.2015 07:25 |
Bottom line is it's all of the above. The obsession of some (whether from outside or in) for absolute power and control limits the ability of others for the same. Oppression and lack of education limit opportunity and create despair. Desperate people hold tighter to faith until that's all there is for them - an obsession - and, in the process, they lose their grip on reality. Doga mentioned the burning of witches. I think that's a perfect example of the cause and effect of all these issues. Despite all that, when it comes to the acts themselves, it's the pricks with the guns, RPGs, machetes, hand grenades, nooses and the like, who bear the ultimate responsibility. What the rest of the world needs to do is figure out how to squash oppressors and educate the masses, so opportunities open to them, and the idea of going off to kill and die in the name of their god becomes as repulsive to them as it is to us. |
| Costa86 10.01.2015 07:54 |
magicalfreddiemercury wrote: What the rest of the world needs to do is figure out how to squash oppressors and educate the masses, so opportunities open to them, and the idea of going off to kill and die in the name of their god becomes as repulsive to them as it is to us.In theory, yes. I don't know how anyone's going to manage that, but yes. |
| Costa86 10.01.2015 08:05 |
The terrorist (Coulibaly) who took hostages in a Kosher supermarket is quoted as having said, to the group of hostages: "If people manage to unite as they did for Charlie Hebdo ... do the same by uniting and saying: 'Leave the Muslims in peace'. Why do you not do that?" He also said: "We are not killers, we are the defenders of the Prophet, and we kill those who insult him." It is obvious that, while these are evil people with probably a few screws loose, what is at the heart at the problem isn't some sort of war between the bad Muslims and the good West (aka The War on Terrorism). The Muslims are reacting to decades of problems caused by the West. When you irritate a lion, all it can do is try to maul you. When you irritate a certain type of Muslim, one who is socially alienated and looking for meaning (e.g. the ones involved in the Paris incident), or one who was brought up to be an very staunch Muslim, then the only way they know how to react is like a lion - they lash out and try to hurt/kill that thing which is causing grief and suffering. Someone here mentioned female genital mutilation (FGM), etc. - I don't know how this can be linked to Muslim terrorism. Yes FGM is quite obviously unbelievably barbaric and horrific - but it's what these people do. We can try and stop them and educate them. But it doesn't meant that because FGM is a tradition, then terrorism is also their tradition. Terrorism is their reaction not their tradition. All the terrorists have been killed, except for the woman who is on the run. |
| thomasquinn 32989 10.01.2015 08:24 |
Do you people know that, in the North Western part of India, the exact same kind of terrorism is acted out by CHRISTIAN terror groups? Did you know that in the CAR, CHRISTIAN militias do the same things as Al Qaeda? Did you know that the Lord's Resistance Army from Uganda does the same kinds of things as Islamic State? The enemy is not ISLAMIC extremism, it's EXTREMISM. And the fact that there have been half a dozen attacks on Mosques in France in the past 72 hours is a sign that extremism is quite definitely not something limited to Muslims. |
| brENsKi 10.01.2015 09:03 |
Casper you "globalise" far too often. YOU do not know the reasons for the attacks on the Paris Mosques - you can only offer possible reasons. Therefore, it's important to accept that that the attacks may not be down to Extremism, they may be down to knee-jerk reaction or even by individuals who are ignorant but scared. Why divert a thread away from the actual discussion when you know that "us people" have made some very accurate observations? or are YOU above actually saying "yes you people have made some very good points" ? One simple fact in all of this: New York, London, Madrid, Paris...and numerous beheadings in the middle east - are ALL solely attributable to Islamic Terrorist Lunatics. If there was a God - then the acts of these idiots were NOT on his behalf - Hell will welcome them all. |
| ParisNair 17.01.2015 14:15 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Do you people know that, in the North Western part of India, the exact same kind of terrorism is acted out by CHRISTIAN terror groups? Did you know that in the CAR, CHRISTIAN militias do the same things as Al Qaeda? Did you know that the Lord's Resistance Army from Uganda does the same kinds of things as Islamic State? The enemy is not ISLAMIC extremism, it's EXTREMISM. And the fact that there have been half a dozen attacks on Mosques in France in the past 72 hours is a sign that extremism is quite definitely not something limited to Muslims.That would be the North EASTERN part of India. Some of the Indian North Eastern states are almost compeletely Christianized. The local tribal traditions and religions of the natives (who are actually a different race (closer to Chinese and Mongols) than the rest of India) have been abandoned and they are in a serious identity crisis. They have even abandoned their languages and English is the most commonly used language. Funny thing is now the Christian population is facing further proseletyzation from other Christian denominations. For example, the Pentacostals are "poaching" the Roman Catholics. But if I understand correctly, this is common in rest of the Christian world too. Recently some groups sprung up in these states who wanted to go back to their original customs and religions. From what they say themselves, they were disillusioned with Chritianity and were sick and tired of the Christians abusing their heritage. It can't be discounted that their motivation could have been political as well. At the moment the Christian "vote bank" in these states is so strong, that during elections whover is endorsed by the preists during the Sunday sermon is assured of victory. Anyway, the Christians did not take to this challenge very well. Some of these groups are more extremist and have access to arms, and recently they attacked the tribals and killed many. I think TQ is referrig to this. This kind of violence, is indeed a cause for concern, and could snow-ball into a much bigger thing if not checked right now. Itis alleged that theere is a nexus between these violent Christian groups in the North East and militant anti-government Communist groups (called Maoists or Naxalites). However, at the moment, the threat they present to India is nothing, compared to threat that Islamic terror presents to the the whole civilised world. And yes, it has to be identified as Islamic terror, otherwise we are fooling ourselves. It is double-standards when no one misses a single opportunity to point out that the victim Ahmed Merabet, the cop who was killed in Paris, was a Muslim (when it was not even clear if he was a practicing Muslim) and also declare in the same breath that the terrorists (who shouted Allah-o-Akbar) had no religion. |
