QueenZone discussion #1400183
Apparently criticism served its purpose and......[concerning TMBMTLTT]]
| MercurialFreddie 23.09.2014 05:14 |
According to Orbit's twitter, he is revisiting his mix and summed up his failure with the phrase "technical thing". Am on it. Is a technical thing. Stay frosty. — William Orbit (@WilliamOrbit) September 22, 2014 |
| matt z 23.09.2014 05:52 |
Saw that last night. Some HEAVY criticisms. Unfortunately very few actually discussed what was wrong about it. I read that on his FB page |
| Mr.Mouth 23.09.2014 05:54 |
Shame David Richard is not around. "This message, is,this message is,this message is,this message is".. |
| Mr.Mouth 23.09.2014 05:56 |
Mr.Mouth wrote: David Richards ...sorry "This message, is,this message is,this message is,this message is".. |
| emrabt 23.09.2014 06:24 |
Forgive me but is it possible to PM him on twitter? I have a feeling we will get the same mix but with the center channel boosted. Maybe someone could give him some constructive feedback? |
| MercurialFreddie 23.09.2014 06:39 |
Yes it is possible to twitt him as usual but PM... It's an option if you're friends with him on Twitter. If not, try Facebook, it shouldn't be a problem. |
| Day dop 23.09.2014 07:38 |
The other problem with it, aside from the vocal issues, is that Brian's guitar work is some of his worst. |
| Benn Kempster 23.09.2014 08:02 |
Whole thing is a fucking shambles. Directionless and, ultimately, embarrassing. |
| Pingfah 23.09.2014 08:19 |
It's not a great track in the first place, Freddie & Michael's voices sound awful together and all the instrumental stuff Brian and Roger added is crap. It's hard to see how Orbit could have made this any worse, but he did. |
| emrabt 23.09.2014 08:35 |
And then having the absolute gall to say Freddie and Michael would have been thrilled.... Thrilled at something neither of them wanted released, and sounding nothing like Freddie intended? |
| Day dop 23.09.2014 09:10 |
The only way it could've been improved from the Mr Bad Guy version is by replacing the snyth-strings with real strings (or perhaps more realistic sounding ones, which wouldn't be hard to do these days) and updating the drum sound. That's it. |
| k-m 23.09.2014 10:11 |
emrabt wrote: And then having the absolute gall to say Freddie and Michael would have been thrilled.... Thrilled at something neither of them wanted released, and sounding nothing like Freddie intended?Hehe. I also remember him twitting about the new mix at some point and boasting how Freddie's and Michael's voices were "blasting out" of the speakers . I bet the guy won't touch any big duets for a decade to come (should he get such an offer, of course ;-)) |
| brians wig 23.09.2014 10:20 |
It'll be too late to change the album as it will have gone to press by now. |
| MercurialFreddie 23.09.2014 11:05 |
I'm curious what is Freddie's estate (Mary + Jim Beach and co.) opinion on this. We know for sure that Jim Beach suggested that Brian and Roger should rework Love kills, so basically thanks to him we can hear this new arrangement which was of course also performed during the Q+Al tour. |
| Ron 23.09.2014 12:21 |
brians wig wrote: It'll be too late to change the album as it will have gone to press by now.Yes unless they stop the presses, destroy them, a few slip out onto the market (there is your collectors item!) and then make a new pressing. |
| MercurialFreddie 23.09.2014 16:31 |
Really ? Only 23 days of September has passed... they have October and 10 days till the day of the release and they're already pressing the cds ? |
| matt z 23.09.2014 16:58 |
Day dop wrote: The other problem with it, aside from the vocal issues, is that Brian's guitar work is some of his worst.I get the impression this might have been deliberate. After all, THE "QUEEN" mix was said to be more acoustic. It probably retained the damn piano as well. I think we're hearing a bit of it that Orbit snuck in as a compromise. .. it starts when Michael sings. That's why it's an acoustic guitar. Either way. .. tragically half assed. The guy doesn't know his FM or MJ from his elbow. For all we know those Brian bits could be different takes or even PARTIALS from an overdub. The song repeats the same keys.... wouldn't be hard to do. I hate criticising people to their face. But damn... it's just a mess |
| matt z 23.09.2014 17:11 |
^well a mess from a Queen POV. Either it ought to be big and bombastic or cool and mellow. No in between. Even a shitty song like Body Language or Staying Power hit a crescendo ..a peak. This is just phoned in. |
| flash00. 23.09.2014 21:24 |
I have zero knowledge of music but hearing it first time I thought it sounded like Freddies vocals had been turned down and Jacksons voice turned up as it's crystal clear but as stated before there voices just don't sound right together at all it's crap and Love Kills the so called ballad it's only a ballad if Freddie sang it as a ballad like everyone who was waiting to hear it was expecting a completely fresh new song with a different vocal take. |
| flash00. 23.09.2014 21:24 |
*Deleted double post* :o) |
| *goodco* 23.09.2014 22:35 |
Maybe the finished, more polished final versions are tucked away in a hermatically sealed vault, while these were allowed to be leaked out to get fans input. I know, I know, I'm giving them all too much credit for being clever. And wishing too hard in one hand....... |
| inu-liger 23.09.2014 23:29 |
matt z wrote: Saw that last night. Some HEAVY criticisms. Unfortunately very few actually discussed what was wrong about it. I read that on his FB pageAt least I'm among the few that faulted it in detail there :P |
| tomchristie22 24.09.2014 07:49 |
It was such a feebly phrased post, not even using full sentences. It'd be preferable if he'd just own his mistake, though I can see how it might be tricky if Jackson's estate have a grip on him in regards to how it should sound. |
| Wiley 24.09.2014 11:00 |
I like the elaborate, epic instrumentation and specially the Beatlesque coda. If only the vocals weren't such a mess. As appealing as the idea sounds, their voices didn't blend well. Maybe that was part of the reason why this collaboration didn't continue... other than the whole Llama-Cocaine incident... :) About the 'delayed start' when Michael's vocals first appear, I have to say that I did hear it the first few times and HATED IT.. I was SO MAD... then after a while I guess I got used to it and I no longer hear it, even though I know it's coming. On a second thought, I think it was a work around to counter for Michael's slightly different phrasing and delivery of the line. If the vocals started a few milliseconds earlier (when we expect them to start, based on Freddie's delivery) maybe the second part would sound off... (?) I don't know. If Orbit's post indeed refers to TMBMTLTT, I hope he is indeed balancing the voices (a) FM vs MJ, and (b) all voices versus the other instruments. Even if I like the instrumentation, I hate to see Freddie drowned in the mix! |
| freddies bell end 24.09.2014 14:25 |
MercurialFreddie wrote: I'm curious what is Freddie's estate (Mary + Jim Beach and co.) opinion on this. We know for sure that Jim Beach suggested that Brian and Roger should rework Love kills, so basically thanks to him we can hear this new arrangement which was of course also performed during the Q+Al tour.How do you know Jim Beach suggested this? |
| MercurialFreddie 24.09.2014 14:31 |
Brian said that on Chris Evans show that "Jim Beach has said that there's a track which they haven't looked into..." |
| MrFunster 24.09.2014 15:30 |
Which track could this be , Man made paradise? |
| flash00. 24.09.2014 17:04 |
They should of used Man Made Paradise instead of There Must Be More To Life Than This and not of used Orbit, what would of been a bit interesting if Brian and Roger used Roy Thomas Baker on one or two tracks. |
| winterspelt 24.09.2014 18:32 |
flash00. wrote: They should of used Man Made Paradise instead of There Must Be More To Life Than This and not of used Orbit, what would of been a bit interesting if Brian and Roger used Roy Thomas Baker on one or two tracks.I think Orbit did was involved because the Jackson Estate didnt trusted Queen or wanted the track to sound like a Queen+Michael Jackson track, as if MJ were part of the creative team behind the song. I cant see any other reason for Orbit's presence in just one song. |
| tero! 48531 24.09.2014 23:32 |
winterspelt wrote: I think Orbit did was involved because the Jackson Estate didnt trusted Queen or wanted the track to sound like a Queen+Michael Jackson track, as if MJ were part of the creative team behind the song. I cant see any other reason for Orbit's presence in just one song.You're probably right... And now that we have the results from QP's serious attempt at duet between Freddie and Michael, it's guaranteed the other recordings will never see the light of day. I wonder if they scraped the barrels to find this remix, or did they just go with the first one which was offered for free? |
| matt z 25.09.2014 05:30 |
Offered for free? Really? |
| MercurialFreddie 25.09.2014 08:34 |
Tero, TWO mixes were made - Brian's and Orbit's and we know which one was chosen by the Jacko Estate. Don't be so angry at QueenProd. I too expected more from the Queen Forever release, but bear in mind that majority of "news" related to the project were grievously marked by poetic licence of the journalists. I'm positively sure that we would get more FM+MJ tracks but the Jackson estate pressured Queen prod. Apart from all the controversy around this album the mixes of Love Kills (Brian's mix) and Let Me in your heart again (BM + RT mix) REALLY ARE BETTER than the newest work of W.Orbit. My friend which is professional musician and sometimes oversees mixing process has said upon hearing all three, that the other mixes sound incomparably better than Orbit's work. |
| tero! 48531 25.09.2014 12:45 |
It's also possible that Brian's version is even worse, or judged to be worse because it sounds like a Queen track instead of a Freddie + Michael track. Let's put it this way... The MJJ estate wouldn't want Brian to re-record and remix Michael's other demo recordings, so why would they want his work on this track? I hardly think that two versions are enough to choose from, because you end up choosing the one which is slightly less awful than the other. |
| cmsdrums 25.09.2014 15:44 |
tero! 48531 wrote: Let's put it this way... The MJJ estate wouldn't want Brian to re-record and remix Michael's other demo recordings, so why would they want his work on this track?To be honest, I don't think they should even get any a say beyond whether his vocal is allowed to appear or not - certainly not an input into choice of producer, style of mix etc... It was written by Freddie, became a Queen track that went unused, then became a Freddie solo track. He happened to record some vocals casually with a friend and not as part of a planned project or agreed recording deal or release plan. I would wager that Montserrat Caballe doesn't even get much (if any) input on how the Barcelona album in treated - and that album bears her name as a 50:50 credit. To me, Jackson's Estate calling any shots on TMBMTLTT is equivalent to Joan Armatrading vetoing a remix or release of 'Don't Lose Your Head'!!! |
| winterspelt 25.09.2014 21:01 |
cmsdrums wrote: To be honest, I don't think they should even get any a say beyond whether his vocal is allowed to appear or not - certainly not an input into choice of producer, style of mix etc...I disagree: The estate is right taking care of MJ's voice because when no one is taking care (or trust somebody else to do the work without supervision) things like the Orbit mix happens. In this case, the MJ estate did the right thing and the Freddie estate/QP/Jim Beach/someone did not. They did a huge mistake and spent lots of time in negotiations instead of just give up and focus on other stuff, to the point that it seems to be safe to assume (in my opinio) that QP was forcing the negotiations (remember Roger's rant about how difficult the MJ estate was?) Oh boy, if MJ estate were reluctant to work with Queen or were trying to impose something (like a mix or a producer) then QP should have stopped. cmsdrums wrote: It was written by Freddie, became a Queen track that went unused, then became a Freddie solo track. He happened to record some vocals casually with a friend and not as part of a planned project or agreed recording deal or release plan. I would wager that Montserrat Caballe doesn't even get much (if any) input on how the Barcelona album in treated - and that album bears her name as a 50:50 credit. To me, Jackson's Estate calling any shots on TMBMTLTT is equivalent to Joan Armatrading vetoing a remix or release of 'Don't Lose Your Head'!!!In the case of Barcelona, Montserrat may have the credit, but Mike Moran gets the money. Im sure it was just a business arrangement in order to get more commercial and artistic exposure. I mean, everybody in the opera world knows who is Montserrat Caballé. Everybody in the rock world knows who is Freddie Mercury and just a few people within the business knows who Mike Moran is. The difference between Joan Armatrading and the MJ estate is that Joan was willing to be part of DLYH while the MJ estate, was difficult and probably werent even interested. |
| tero! 48531 25.09.2014 23:47 |
cmsdrums wrote:tero! 48531 wrote: Let's put it this way... The MJJ estate wouldn't want Brian to re-record and remix Michael's other demo recordings, so why would they want his work on this track?To be honest, I don't think they should even get any a say beyond whether his vocal is allowed to appear or not - certainly not an input into choice of producer, style of mix etc... It was written by Freddie, became a Queen track that went unused, then became a Freddie solo track. He happened to record some vocals casually with a friend and not as part of a planned project or agreed recording deal or release plan. I would wager that Montserrat Caballe doesn't even get much (if any) input on how the Barcelona album in treated - and that album bears her name as a 50:50 credit. To me, Jackson's Estate calling any shots on TMBMTLTT is equivalent to Joan Armatrading vetoing a remix or release of 'Don't Lose Your Head'!!! |
| tero! 48531 25.09.2014 23:49 |
cmsdrums wrote: To be honest, I don't think they should even get any a say beyond whether his vocal is allowed to appear or not - certainly not an input into choice of producer, style of mix etc... It was written by Freddie, became a Queen track that went unused, then became a Freddie solo track. He happened to record some vocals casually with a friend and not as part of a planned project or agreed recording deal or release plan.It's an example I've used a lot with these MJ tracks, but here it comes again... tero! 48531 has just as much artistic rights into these songs as Brian, Roger, or William Orbit (ie. big fat zero.) We can all make the remix we want, but we aren't the original artists (or their representatives), and don't have an actual say in what gets released. Queen are lucky to have gotten a deal for one song on their new cash cow, and they've cocked it up my making a shitty remix. cmsdrums wrote: I would wager that Montserrat Caballe doesn't even get much (if any) input on how the Barcelona album in treated - and that album bears her name as a 50:50 credit.I agree, the name alone doesn't tell anything. A better indication (although not perfectly accurate either) would be the total percentage of performance and song writing credits, which would give Freddie a 44% share, and Montserrat 27% of the album. cmsdrums wrote:To me, Jackson's Estate calling any shots on TMBMTLTT is equivalent to Joan Armatrading vetoing a remix or release of 'Don't Lose Your Head'!!!The MJJ estate has the right to call the shots because they represent one of the performers. QP (through Jim Beach) can do what they want with their half of the recording, but it's only fair that both sides have an equal say. That same principle however isn't applied to session musicians who have already signed away their rights to a performance... I don't think the sharp businessmen of QP would have allowed a guest singer to retain any rights to his replaceable performance, but it's theoretically possible. |
| emrabt 26.09.2014 02:14 |
I wouldn't have thought Jackson's people would have had much say over this track, apart from setting a price on performance royalties. As Freddie wrote the music and lyrics (Jackson adlibbed verse is absent so no writers credit.) Jim Beach would have creative control over both. The other two tracks (victory and State of shock) on the other hand, were Jackson tracks, so the creative control over those would land in their court. Which probably explain why they aren't letting Queen near them |
| tero! 48531 26.09.2014 09:13 |
emrabt wrote: I wouldn't have thought Jackson's people would have had much say over this track, apart from setting a price on performance royalties. As Freddie wrote the music and lyrics (Jackson adlibbed verse is absent so no writers credit.) Jim Beach would have creative control over both. The other two tracks (victory and State of shock) on the other hand, were Jackson tracks, so the creative control over those would land in their court. Which probably explain why they aren't letting Queen near themI don't think it's as clear cut as you say. Supposedly it's legal to release any old recordings as long as you pay all the dues to the performer and composer. Both parties would have the same recordings, so this would be a case of a gentleman's agreement between the two estates. (Perhaps the MJ estate doesn't actually need these duets, whereas the FM estate wants it to maximise sales.) Unfortunately for the FM estate, remix explains why the MJ estate won't be letting Queen near the other tracks... |
| cmsdrums 26.09.2014 12:12 |
I recall reading somewhere that State of Shock actually co-composed by Freddie with Michael, but when he couldn't make the time to complete the recordings he graciously let go of his writing credit so Jackson could proceed with another artist? We're now rueing that decision!! |
| tero! 48531 27.09.2014 01:40 |
cmsdrums wrote: I recall reading somewhere that State of Shock actually co-composed by Freddie with Michael, but when he couldn't make the time to complete the recordings he graciously let go of his writing credit so Jackson could proceed with another artist? We're now rueing that decision!!I don't know about the credits, but based on the evidence so far, we should be grateful that QP hasn't gotten their hands on the other songs! |
| Vali 08.10.2014 09:06 |
Surprisingly, I heard it this morning at work, on a spanish radio station. apparently, it sounded as shitty as usual and couldn't hear Freddie in the last section |
| Mr.QueenFan 08.10.2014 09:16 |
Vali wrote: Surprisingly, I heard it this morning at work, on a spanish radio station. apparently, it sounded as shitty as usual and couldn't hear Freddie in the last sectionThey're probably still using the BBC premiered version of the song. |
| Vali 08.10.2014 10:01 |
yep, that's what I thought. There's still ... hope? |
| bootLuca 08.10.2014 13:19 |
if I remember correctly, in the early 90s, John Deacon made a remix of There Must Be More, someone can tell me what has become of this remix? couldn't this be an opportunity to release it? |
| cmi 08.10.2014 13:47 |
Yes, there was an information about it. As I remember it was 1996... Unfortunately it didn't appear on The Solo Collection as well as Made In Heaven single remix. Also information about 'Tie Your Mother Down' remix leaked from Queen Rocks era. And it's still unavailable. |
| inu-liger 08.10.2014 17:56 |
bootLuca wrote: if I remember correctly, in the early 90s, John Deacon made a remix of There Must Be More, someone can tell me what has become of this remix? couldn't this be an opportunity to release it?It doesn't exist. I asked Greg Brooks about this years ago. |
| Benn Kempster 09.10.2014 08:32 |
>It doesn't exist. I asked Greg Brooks about this years ago. Neither does a live version of TFFMS according to him...... ;-) |
| cmsdrums 09.10.2014 09:06 |
Benn Kempster wrote: >It doesn't exist. I asked Greg Brooks about this years ago. Neither does a live version of TFFMS according to him...... ;-)Exactly - what Greg should be saying is that he hasn't ever found a copy of it. One of the strangest examples of something like this is that John remixed Roger's solo track 'I Cry For You' for use as a b side single release; this would have been around the same timeframe that 'There Must be More To Life Than This' was being recorded, and so to me it isn't at all unfeasible that a John remix of the Freddie track also does indeed exist somewhere. |
| Mr.QueenFan 09.10.2014 11:32 |
inu-liger wrote:It has been a long time - 18 years - but didn't John remixed this song at his new home studio at the time?bootLuca wrote: if I remember correctly, in the early 90s, John Deacon made a remix of There Must Be More, someone can tell me what has become of this remix? couldn't this be an opportunity to release it?It doesn't exist. I asked Greg Brooks about this years ago. If that's the case, there's an explanation why Greg hasn't found it. Maybe he can ask John about it? :-) |
| winterspelt 09.10.2014 11:59 |
Is Greg Brooks an archivist or a researcher? Because, if he's just an archivist, it would explain why he believes some material does not exist when in fact it does exist. But I find hard to believe that he still havent completed his work. Now, if he is a researcher, we can conclude he is a total failure. |
| pittrek 09.10.2014 12:05 |
inu-liger wrote:I'm pretty sure it DOES exist :-)bootLuca wrote: if I remember correctly, in the early 90s, John Deacon made a remix of There Must Be More, someone can tell me what has become of this remix? couldn't this be an opportunity to release it?It doesn't exist. I asked Greg Brooks about this years ago. |
| Vali 09.10.2014 13:15 |
pittrek wrote: I'm pretty sure it DOES exist :-)you teaser :-) |
| pittrek 09.10.2014 14:27 |
I just trust my sources more than Greg :) |
| Mr.QueenFan 09.10.2014 14:45 |
pittrek wrote: I just trust my sources more than Greg :) .Tell John we miss him :-) |
| BETA215 09.10.2014 20:56 |
pittrek wrote: I'm pretty sure it DOES exist :-)You're pretty sure it's great? ;) |