| fras444 04.07.2014 00:11 |
Something I debate a lot with my friends Was Queen a heavy metal rock band.. Or just a very hard rocking band? And if they are heavy enough, would they be a serious contender to being a pioneer of heavy metal?...and being apart of the"unholy trinity of British hard rock and heavy metal" along with Led Zep, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple? Queen has sometimes been described as a heavy metal band. From a selection of songs that came from their first three albums and the setlist that they had before the release of Sheer Heart Attack. Barring White Queen. They had a very heavy metal setlist. Although Freddie had a very slight camp voice on album to these "heavy" songs esp being able to perfect the vocals, Live and touring... Freddie with a lower tone to save his voice, really gave those songs some serious power..!! From their first three albums would you guys say that Queen was a heavy metal band back in the early 70's and would some of those songs still be considered heavy in todays standards..? Was Queen a pioneer of heavy metal? and has Queens influence on the heavy metal scene gone under the radar? I guess with the release of the Rainbow, alot of people esp this generation will quickly realise why bands such as GNR, Soundgarden, Iron Maiden and Metallica consider Queen to be such a huge influence to there being! Queen.. (there are a lot of anal people out there who state "you only become official if you release an album") and in this case for Queen, they didn't release an album till 73... 3 years after the likes of Black Sabbath and Deep Purple's debut albums. But Queen technically started in 1969/1970? 1971 if you state John Deacon.. they had been playing alot of those songs up until the release of their first album, even earlier in their various bands... Queen the album could have been released in 1970, they had all but the music there, if it wasn't for not having a bassist, 71/72 if it wasn't for having to work on it in some ungodly hour of the morning and Queen II could have been late 72/73 if it weren't for the oil crisis.. If there was a evolution chart for heavy metal, somthing similar to what you have for the evolution of animals, Queen would have to be that direct link to modern day metal... Led Zep was basically a blues/groove band with some real nice heavy riffs, Black Sabbath was real heavy, sometimes a little slow and bluesy, Deep Purple right up there but... There is something about Queens music, Brian's unique guitar sound, Rogers solid drumming, Johns bass runs and Freddie's powerful crisp and clear vocals. Three songs, Great King Rat, Ogre Battle and Stone Cold Crazy have to be one of the critical links to modern day heavy metal. Great King Rat: Metallica had borrowed the riffs from this song and implemented it to their first ever release "Hit the Lights" In the instrumental interlude in the latter half of the song, a guitar riff can be heard that Queen originally used in their song Great King Rat, and later, Stone Cold Crazy. Great song with some sic guitar and drum parts that would slice through many of Black Sabbath's songs. Ogre Battle: It was thrash before thrash metal was invented a brilliant song with some seriously fast riffs and some brilliant bass runs from John esp when played live! Good example is the live at the rainbow March. Stone Cold Crazy: One of the first ever speed metal song a song that Metallica covered and made it into a grammy winner! Heavy metal as a genre was a bit like a double edged sward from what I have read. It was one of those things band's wanted to be apart of or they wanted to distance themselves from as a genre. Good example was AC/DC. They have always been known as a "satanic" heavy metal band yet they themselves have always stated that they are just a good old fashioned hard rocking and rolling band, Led Zep... Jimmy states that 3/4 of their music is blues/grove/acoustic even Jones stating that they were not heavy like Black Sabbath and stating that the highlight of his career was seeing ladies just grove to their music. Deff Leppard distance themselves from that title as one of the leaders of NWBHM. Brian has also mentioned in those early interview, "we never wanted to come out as a heavy band, we just only to play songs that we wanted to play." And for those bands who want to be a heavy metal rock band, it has also seriously limited them. Such as Metallica and the Black album and the Load/Reload albums. They got absolute ridiculed from their hardcore fan base for not being heavy and trying something different... Even Iron Maiden is not immune, Bruce wanted to do some acoustic songs much to the dismay of Steve harris.. |
| queenside 04.07.2014 08:57 |
i think if rainbow was released back in the day queen would be considered and mentioned more as pioneers of heavy metal along with sabbath, purple and zeppelin. especially cos they were always heavier live than on records. |
| Vocal harmony 04.07.2014 09:36 |
Heavy metal is a label, and I believe Queen were not a band who where ever pigeon holed, nor did they wish to be. Their first album is the closest thing to a metal album, but sections of My Fairy King and The Night Comes Down are anything but metal. Yes they could produce truly heavy songs, but there was more to their collective abilities. Through the years plenty of rock/metal bands have sited Queen as a major influence. But being an influence on a style of music doesn't mean you have to be given that name too. I also think that Led Zeppelin went far beyond what is thought of as heavy metal, a term that was used to describe the Heavy blues based sound of their first album. |
| Stelios 04.07.2014 09:48 |
"If there was a evolution chart for heavy metal, somthing similar to what you have for the evolution of animals, Queen would have to be that direct link to modern day metal" Thats a very insightful and clever remark.I agree. I think musically Queen were indeed pioneers of that big, heavy, speed sound of Metal. Only aspect of Metal they lack is perhaps the "raw factor". Queen wanted things to have a refined touch hand in hand with their edge. But eitherway Heavy Metal is more of a movement i believe. It dosen't forgive any changing paths musically or attitude-wise. And sure Queen were all over the place. Metalheads almost dismissed Mettalica for their Black Album! Imagine how Queen's diversity reflects on their ideas about purity on what is considered Heavy Metal. Our boys don't stand a chance on their "Metal Pedastal" ! |
| kdj2hot 04.07.2014 15:53 |
fras444 wrote: Something I debate a lot with my friends Was Queen a heavy metal rock band.. Or just a very hard rocking band? And if they are heavy enough, would they be a serious contender to being a pioneer of heavy metal?...and being apart of the"unholy trinity of British hard rock and heavy metal" along with Led Zep, Black Sabbath and Deep Purple? Queen has sometimes been described as a heavy metal band. From a selection of songs that came from their first three albums and the setlist that they had before the release of Sheer Heart Attack. Barring White Queen. They had a very heavy metal setlist. Although Freddie had a very slight camp voice on album to these "heavy" songs esp being able to perfect the vocals, Live and touring... Freddie with a lower tone to save his voice, really gave those songs some serious power..!! From their first three albums would you guys say that Queen was a heavy metal band back in the early 70's and would some of those songs still be considered heavy in todays standards..? Was Queen a pioneer of heavy metal? and has Queens influence on the heavy metal scene gone under the radar? I guess with the release of the Rainbow, alot of people esp this generation will quickly realise why bands such as GNR, Soundgarden, Iron Maiden and Metallica consider Queen to be such a huge influence to there being! Queen.. (there are a lot of anal people out there who state "you only become official if you release an album") and in this case for Queen, they didn't release an album till 73... 3 years after the likes of Black Sabbath and Deep Purple's debut albums. But Queen technically started in 1969/1970? 1971 if you state John Deacon.. they had been playing alot of those songs up until the release of their first album, even earlier in their various bands... Queen the album could have been released in 1970, they had all but the music there, if it wasn't for not having a bassist, 71/72 if it wasn't for having to work on it in some ungodly hour of the morning and Queen II could have been late 72/73 if it weren't for the oil crisis.. If there was a evolution chart for heavy metal, somthing similar to what you have for the evolution of animals, Queen would have to be that direct link to modern day metal... Led Zep was basically a blues/groove band with some real nice heavy riffs, Black Sabbath was real heavy, sometimes a little slow and bluesy, Deep Purple right up there but... There is something about Queens music, Brian's unique guitar sound, Rogers solid drumming, Johns bass runs and Freddie's powerful crisp and clear vocals. Three songs, Great King Rat, Ogre Battle and Stone Cold Crazy have to be one of the critical links to modern day heavy metal. Great King Rat: Metallica had borrowed the riffs from this song and implemented it to their first ever release "Hit the Lights" In the instrumental interlude in the latter half of the song, a guitar riff can be heard that Queen originally used in their song Great King Rat, and later, Stone Cold Crazy. Great song with some sic guitar and drum parts that would slice through many of Black Sabbath's songs. Ogre Battle: It was thrash before thrash metal was invented a brilliant song with some seriously fast riffs and some brilliant bass runs from John esp when played live! Good example is the live at the rainbow March. Stone Cold Crazy: One of the first ever speed metal song a song that Metallica covered and made it into a grammy winner! Heavy metal as a genre was a bit like a double edged sward from what I have read. It was one of those things band's wanted to be apart of or they wanted to distance themselves from as a genre. Good example was AC/DC. They have always been known as a "satanic" heavy metal band yet they themselves have always stated that they are just a good old fashioned hard rocking and rolling band, Led Zep... Jimmy states that 3/4 of their music is blues/grove/acoustic even Jones stating that they were not heavy like Black Sabbath and stating that the highlight of his career was seeing ladies just grove to their music. Deff Leppard distance themselves from that title as one of the leaders of NWBHM. Brian has also mentioned in those early interview, "we never wanted to come out as a heavy band, we just only to play songs that we wanted to play." And for those bands who want to be a heavy metal rock band, it has also seriously limited them. Such as Metallica and the Black album and the Load/Reload albums. They got absolute ridiculed from their hardcore fan base for not being heavy and trying something different... Even Iron Maiden is not immune, Bruce wanted to do some acoustic songs much to the dismay of Steve harris..Paul McCartney created the template of metal with helter skelter. The vocal phrasing, everything came from that song. End of discussion. |
| Russian Headlong 04.07.2014 17:28 |
Yes, they are. The term 'heavy metal' has changed and become so fragmented since the 70's but Queen certainly when they chose to be were as heavy as any of their peers. Post Bo Rhap they became more eclectic and poppier but most records contained some hard rockin tunes but unfortunately they did become more of a pop band in the 80s but their ability to appeal to a broad range of fans. Personally, I loved their heavy side and disliked a lot of their later stuff and found too many of the 80's albums too poppy. |
| musicland munich 04.07.2014 19:58 |
In a german article from 1974 they have called QUEEN a "harder rock group". The words "heavy-metal" or "Hardrock" doesn't exsist back then. And in my opinion, in that period it hits the nail right on the head. |
| fras444 04.07.2014 22:13 |
Vocal harmony metal is a label, and I believe Queen were not a band who were ever pigeon holed, nor did they wish to be. Shit That was one thing I was going to write in this thread that I totally forgot. Yip Queen was one of those pain in the neck for people who wanted to pigeonhole them.. esp Rolling Stones mag. That was the biggest thing that made Queen who they are. In that very first album they "consciously unconsciously" made it clear that they were going to be a band that would try many things with songs like Jesus, Night comes down and My Fairy King... who would of thought.... (this one is for you old bastards to describe with your own words...!) When you picked up that Queen vinyl when it first came out, or the very select few here on this forum, that went to their first gigs before the album was released.. what went through your minds...? how many of you guys were left wondering what were they going to do next.. ? maybe with a little excitement and anticipation of something to follow up with that LP...? then BANG.....! Your ears totally destroyed with orgasmic guitar/vocal overdubs with some heavy trashy drum beats and a bass line to match!! Queen II totally out of the left field well in truly reinvented rock!!! That LP was the LP that Queen, in flamboyant fashion showed the world that they were not going to be a band that would just lay down and follow trends... They were GOING to be that band that would set the trends set new benchmarks with each new album and that was I guess the very thing that saved them from going into extinction like many bands that tried to stick with the same tune... Many bands struggled with the "punk" movement. Queen just chugged on through with ease almost.. But yeah going back to Queen as a important part to the heavy metal blueprint, I feel they have had a huge part to play with the evolution of that genre. Stelios wrote "If there was a evolution chart for heavy metal, somthing similar to what you have for the evolution of animals, Queen would have to be that direct link to modern day metal" Thats a very insightful and clever remark.I agree. Haha thanks mate I failed english in a spectacular way and thats the only way I could colourfully describe what I wanted to say lol!!! Only aspect of Metal they lack is perhaps the "raw factor". Queen wanted things to have a refined touch hand in hand with their edge. But eitherway Heavy Metal is more of a movement i believe. It dosen't forgive any changing paths musically or attitude-wise. And sure Queen were all over the place. Queen definitely had a very refined approach to their songs esp in studio which I guess took alittle "heavy metal" out of their album songs and they thrived the best in that "profesional keep things tight" on stage as opposed to Led Zeps loose jamming out a 5min studio song and constantly re-evolving it to be a 30min spectacular which kept them a little toned down, but their songs live never the less had a very heavy sound to it and Freddie could really lay down some very powerful and heavy vocals and that is very true with Queen being all over the place they would never have had a serious look from headbangers when it comes to talking about the roots of heavy metal and Queens input... and their music wasn't really headbanging music to that extent but it is music that really had a force and power to be reckoned with esp with those tight pioneering scales that Brian used...(Where are you Sebastian you are an expert when it comes to describing music!!) Black Sabbath and Led Zep they to my ears had a more true blues sound to their music, correct me if I'm wrong and give me some good examples to listen too! Listing to Deep Purple's Black Night.. It is a heavy track with some tight solos but for a hard core headbanger you have to admit there is something missing in between the solos compared with Queens heavy songs... There are times Queen "live" could really have done with a rhythm guitarist....? John does the most amazing job multitasking and filling that rhythm void with his bass,keeping with Roger and chugging out the percussion section and being a lead bassist and doing his own little bass runs at the same time. But a rhythm would have all but given Brian the ability to solo through the whole song like he pretty much did on studio.. Black Queen was just one big Brian May solo.. in the same way as Cliff Burtons bass solo through the whole of Call of Ktulu and Slash solo through the whole of Estranged.. It would have been amazing to hear just what Brian could have done if he had a rhythm guitarist in Queen |
| gerry 05.07.2014 11:49 |
I think back in the 70s, Queen were regarded as a hard rock group, but never heavy metal, they were too intelligent to be heavy metal, thrashing songs left right and centre. Dont forget those early albums had variation on them from hard rocking "ogre battle" to gentle ballads like "nevermore" " and "funny how love is" but as Roger once said it was very hard to pigeon hole Queen to one category of music because they were always changing style and course of direction. |
| TomP63 06.07.2014 05:18 |
Pioneers for heavy metal? Queen nah, Grand Funk Railroad, yes! |
| Heavenite 06.07.2014 16:10 |
The context is changing! I mean gosh, those early Sabbath albums would struggle to be called heavy metal these days, yet they were supposed to have started it weren't they? |
| brENsKi 06.07.2014 16:46 |
sorry Heavenite, why would they struggle? those early sabbs, purple and zep albums are deffo heavy metal. every genre evolves...even withing music genres...so why not? metal in 1970 and metal in 2010...may sound different in some respects, but they're both metal the same way as HG Wells' sci-fi the time machine / island of dr moreau / invisible man / war of the worlds all written over a hundred years ago...are ALL sci-fi and no less so, than: hunger games / cloud atlas and world war z |
| Heavenite 07.07.2014 04:13 |
Hi there brENsKi I was just listening to the first CD of Zep's Mothership on the way home tonight. It's pretty great really and reminded me that I should probably update with those new deluxe sets. I guess for their time those albums were genre defining. What I was saying, and I think you understand this, is compared to the heaviness of the music these days, they simply wouldn't be defined that way now. Almost a gentle listen these days....lol! Having said that, I agree for their time, their's no doubt that they were heavy metal! What that suggests to me is that there were actually plenty of heavy metal tracks by Queen, as the genre was defined back then. I remember thinking wow that's heavy when listening to Queen II for instance. The difference was they put it in next to stuff like Nevermore and White Queen. Although then again, the Zep albums have quite a few acoustic and bluesey ditties when I think about it. |
| Heavenite 07.07.2014 04:14 |
Sorry double post! |
| Holly2003 07.07.2014 04:44 |
I guess you;ve never heard 'Born to be Wild' then? musicland munich wrote: In a german article from 1974 they have called QUEEN a "harder rock group". The words "heavy-metal" or "Hardrock" doesn't exsist back then. And in my opinion, in that period it hits the nail right on the head. |
| Caviar and Cigarettes 15.07.2014 18:08 |
Queen aren't Metal,Maybe Zep,But definatley Sabbath. I have not litened to them much,but from what ive heard,they sound heavy. Don't know Deep Purple. Queen DID have SOME heavy songs though. Son And Daughter Modern Times Rock N Roll Stone Cold Crazy The Hitman Sheer Heart Attack Gimmie The Prize Princes Of The Universe White Man Dead On Time And some more. |
| kdj2hot 16.07.2014 20:15 |
Heavenite wrote: The context is changing! I mean gosh, those early Sabbath albums would struggle to be called heavy metal these days, yet they were supposed to have started it weren't they?I told your dim as that Paul Mac car they created with Heater Skelter. It's not up for debate. It's a hard fact. |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 17.07.2014 01:55 |
Well, to me Black Sabbath in the 70's were heavy rock. Heavy metal is a etiquette more from the 80's. And yes, Queen influenced a lot of heavy metal bands, but pioneer....mmm, not sure. Oggre Battle maybe. |
| Heavenite 17.07.2014 07:49 |
Yes, but the beginnings were in the 70's. From what I've heard, metal grew out of rock in the 70's. I mean Sabbath initially saw themselves as a rock band. Heavy metal didn't exist! Yet later they are regarded as the band that started metal. So it seems that it wasn't as clear cut at the time as we might now believe. |