| rhyeking 11.09.2010 23:20 |
Going through my notes, I notice I made a point a while back, I think from a John S. Stuart post or another reliable source, that there exists an acetate of the original Queen album, possibly dating from between the recording (after the tracks were complete) and finalizing of the album master. This acetate apparently features either a proto-track-listing or the original track listing before "Mad The Swine" was removed. My note says only that, as was established a while back (by JSS?), that "Mad The Swine" was positioned between "Great King Rat" and "My Fairy King," seguing from GKR. My question here (sorry for the preamble) is whether the rest of the album was the same as the version we know: Side 1: Keep Yourself Alive (which version, Mike Stone Mix or Lost Lost Re-take?) Doing All Right Great King Rat Mad The Swine (segueing from GKR, later removed) My Fairy King Side 2: Liar The Night Comes Down (De Lane Lea Version or RTB Version...?) Modern Times Rock And Roll Son And Daughter Jesus Seven Seas Of Rhye... With "Mad The Swine" included and the rest of the album the same as was released, the sides would have been about 21 minutes each. Removing MTS dropped Side 1 by 3:21. |
| thomasquinn 32989 12.09.2010 07:44 |
I can of course only speculate, but it seems to me that any decision to put "Mad The Swine" directly before "My Fairy King" would not have held up to a first listening. I don't think the two songs' keys would be any problem, but the overall sound (and tempo) for both is such that I think they would have caused the last part of side one to drag on a bit. |
| pittrek 12.09.2010 10:18 |
Yes, you're right. I can't find that thread by JSS, but you remember it correctly |
| rhyeking 12.09.2010 10:55 |
I agree with Thomas Quinn that removing MTS from Side 1 probably improved the flow. What's interesting (for me, anyway) is hearing how that flow would sound, even if it doesn't work as well. Playing GKR and MTS in that order, adjusting my MP3 player's settings to cross-fade those tracks a few seconds, allowed me to get an idea of the effect of the segue. Then, as MTS ends with Roger's closing drum flare and "My Fairy King" starts with the guitar note, it would sort of sound like they were just playing playing through live from one song to the next. One other note I made about MTS, again probably from JSS, is that the version we know cuts off the "I've" at the beginning because they lifted it from acetate and the "I've" was buried in the drum roll that closed GKR. Is that accurate to other people's recollections of the earlier thread? Does that also mean there's no clean master for "Mad The Swine" (with the "I've" and no left over drum segue)? |
| Wiley 13.09.2010 11:54 |
rhyeking wrote: Does that also mean there's no clean master for "Mad The Swine" (with the "I've" and no left over drum segue)? ------------------ The last sentence of your post really intrigued me. I never thought that the song could be missing half a second at the beginning (maybe more?). I just assumed that's how it was recorded in the first place. Now that I think about it, I had a similar situation with "Days of our lives". For years I had only heard its "vinyl edit" (My Mexican Innuendo CD had the vinyl edits) and that version starts abruptly with the "Sometimes I get the feeling..." No percussions. Then I bought another Innuendo CD (like 8 years later) and heard it in its entirity. The bigger surprise was discovering Bijou was more than a minute long! By that time I was already a bit suspicious because I didn't remember The Hitman's being so long, but then Bijou struck me. |
| Negative Creep 13.09.2010 12:28 |
rhyeking wrote: One other note I made about MTS, again probably from JSS, is that the version we know cuts off the "I've" at the beginning because they lifted it from acetate and the "I've" was buried in the drum roll that closed GKR. Is that accurate to other people's recollections of the earlier thread? Does that also mean there's no clean master for "Mad The Swine" (with the "I've" and no left over drum segue)? There's no way that's sourced from an acetate - it's sonically too good to be sourced from anything other than reel to reel. Unless the band recorded 2 tracks as one piece, a clean master should of course exist - if the story that's been told is correct, they must have sourced the track from a production master reel, where all the tracks were segued for the proper release. |
| rhyeking 13.09.2010 12:44 |
NC, I agree and suspected as much (that it was sourced from a tape rather than acetate). Thanks for the confirmation. |
| inu-liger 13.09.2010 21:50 |
I want to ask a stupid question here: Is there ANY difference between the two MTS releases on Queen I (1991 HR remaster) and the Euro 'Headlong' CD-Single in terms of mixing? Apparently people have been confused with the fact that one of the liner notes stated that the song was remixed by David Richards. |
| rhyeking 13.09.2010 23:05 |
During the "Best Remasters, Track by Track" thread I gave both a thorough listen (I have the single and HR Queen re-issue) and could not hear any discernible difference, though I believe the HR copy might have been slightly louder. To my ear, there was no alternate mixing between these releases and HR likely used the same master as the single. The single, CDQUEEN 18, came out May 13, 1991, and the HR Queen re-issue was June, 1991, effectively putting the two in production (printing, pressing) during the same time. "Remixed by Queen And David Richards" could be referring to the improved drum sound (which reports have as one of the reasons for MTS's exclusion). A remix also implies they may have had access to a multi-track master, which excludes the possibility that this cut came from an album master reel to reel. The "Remix" might also only be referring to a cleaning up of the track from the 1972 recording, though this would more properly be a remastering, as ideally no changes are made in levels of each element. It's hard to say without hearing a pre-1991 cut of this song, that which was left off the original version of the of the album. I'd love to hear a copy of this track taken straight from the acetate in question, to hear the segue and hear any differences in mixing. |
| bigV 14.09.2010 13:32 |
Purely speculation, but I'm thinking that at some point it must've occurred to someone that two Jesus-themed songs on a single album was one too many. It's possible that if "Mad the Swine" was included "Jesus" would've been dropped (possibly for inclusion in the second album). Thoughts? V. |
| rhyeking 14.09.2010 14:53 |
You could be onto something there, Big V. It's crossed my mind too. What's more interesting is that by the time the first album was being recorded, Queen had the following songs available in their live repertoire and previous works: Hangman Stone Cold Crazy See What A Fool I've Been Polar Bear Silver Salmon (though as a Tim Staffell track, it was probably nixed early) And possibly "Ogre Battle" which was written probably between March and December 1972. It's interesting that the band didn't decided to replace MTS with one of these tracks, but maybe it was too late in the game to record another song, so they went with what they had. |
| bigV 14.09.2010 15:23 |
A few random thoughts: - You may be right about "Ogre Battle", which would explain its inclusion in BBC Session #3 (not to mention the Trident acetate from 1973...) - Had "Stone Cold Crazy" been included in the debut it could very well have been the rumoured early slow (bluesy?) version - "Silver Salmon" also has some Biblical overtones, doesn't it? - I wonder why "Doin' Alright" was included in the debut and "Polar Bear" wasn't... Could it be that "Polar Bear" was considered inferior for some reason? Odd, really - Freddie's vocal is stunning! V. |
| ITSM 16.09.2010 09:34 |
I heard/read some rumors a couple of years ago about "Ogre Battle". The song was finished for Queen (1), it just didn't fit in, so they waited for the second album. With that in mind, I think it's a cool starting-point for an album. "How can we make the other songs so it will fit in?" ...anyway, Queen II is one of the best albums ever - maybe The best. |
| rhyeking 16.09.2010 11:03 |
Looking through the Queen Concertography.com site (which is awesome, by the way) and a few other notes, I'm trying to figure a little about when particular early Queen songs were written and developed. Here's what I've come up with (subject to future revision): Smile era (1968 to 1970) White Queen (though not performed by them, Brian wrote during this period) Polar Bear Silver Salmon Doing All Right See What A Fool I've Been Blag (Guitar Solo) (eventually Brighton Rock + related solos) Ibex/Wreckage (1969) Hangman Rock And Roll Medley Pre-Stone Cold Crazy track (title unknown) Lover (later to partly become Liar) Queen (by 1970) March Of The Black Queen (started, according to Brian) (by 1971) Tie Your Mother Down (at least started) Keep Yourself Alive The Night Comes Down Great King Rat Jesus Liar (by March) Stone Cold Crazy (slow version?) Son And Daughter (by Dec. 1972) Feelings Modern Times Rock And Roll (between June and Nov. '72) My Fairy King (between June and Nov. '72) Mad The Swine (between June and Nov. '72) The Seven Seas Of Rhye (started likely Nov. 1972, as it wasn't finished for the album) Ogre Battle Father To Son (started?) It's possible (probable?) that some of these latter songs existed well before the end of 1972. That's just the date we can say the song definitely existed by this point (either appearing live or on the first album). Also, I'm not 100% certain about all my notes (such as Black Queen) as they sometimes come from interviews made 20-30 years later; memories fade and blur, after all. |
| Benn 16.09.2010 11:39 |
Big V, re: >Could it be that "Polar Bear" was considered inferior for some reason? Odd, really - Freddie's vocal is stunning! Oddly, I've always thought it's a terrible performance - over-reliance on falsetto and way too over-dramatic. Maybe a key drop or two and it would have been easier for him to handle. Maybe there's also an element of the fact that it's so rough and there's very little in terms of backing........? I'd rate Silver Salmon and virtually everything else above Polar Bear. |
| Jam Monkey 16.09.2010 12:38 |
I've always prefered the Smile version of Polar Bear, but then the Queen version was not finished. Freddie makes a a vocal fumble in the opening verse, so it's clear that this version would never have made the album anyway. |