| Mr. Scully 07.07.2008 15:28 |
During September and October this year I'd like to record gigs of... one famous rock band. I've got a Sony ECM-719 mic and I have to buy a recorder. I've narrowed my search to three recorders and I don't know which one to choose. Has anybody got any experience with any of them? Olympus LS-10 - link Tascam DR-1 - link Edirol R-09 - link Olympus has heaps of functions and features, Tascam has a good reputation and Edirol looks nice :-) (If nobody replies, I will write it again in the trading forum ;-) |
| Ale Solan 07.07.2008 16:02 |
The only brand I've tried is Tascam but not that model and I gotta say those are really good. PS: I'm surprised about the trader alert about Gerolamo, I used to talk to him, good I've never made a trade with him despite that I was about to do so once. |
| Penetration_Guru 07.07.2008 16:07 |
I heard a lot of good things about the edirol |
| Mr. Scully 07.07.2008 16:34 |
Alex - forget about it, he only pissed me off recently but we somehow explained that to each other today. It's off topic here anyway. P_G - thanks :) |
| inu-liger 07.07.2008 23:23 |
I have an Edirol R-09 unit, which I've used for The Police, Spice Girls and Van Halen in 2007. I favour Edirols over anything else. I also own and sometimes use a Sony Hi-MD recorder, but it is more cumbersome and limited than the Edirols, and I prefer to only use it to my band's concert soundboard outputs, while recording the 'live audience' part through the Edirol. Edirol has a new unit out called the R-09HR which will do 96/24 PCM recording. link Of course, although it records to both SD and SDHC cards, I'd recommend at least getting a 4GB SDHC card for 112 minutes of 96/24 recording. (Do NOT get a 4GB card only marked as SD! Had an emergency occur with one of those, made in Hong Kong, that a friend of mine living in Japan at the time who discovered the card got corrupt after the first 1GB of data! Just BARELY avoided a nasty situation by luckily having extra funds available to PayPal to him quickly to get a proper 4GB SDHC card the day before a concert he was going to record for me and other people in said channel.....long story really, but in the end it worked out fine) For a quick reference, I calculated how much time could be allowed roughly maximum for 4GB and 8GB SDHC cards at various samplerates in PCM format using the Edirol R-09HR: 4GB @ 48/16 - 5H 39M 5s @ 48/24 - 3H 46M 3s @ 88.2/16 - 3H 4M 33s @ 88.2/24 - 2H 3M 2s @ 96/16 - 2H 49M 32s @ 96/24 - 1H 53M 1s 8GB @ 48/16 - 11H 18M 10s @ 48/24 - 7H 32M 6s @ 88.2/16 - 6H 9M 7s @ 88.2/24 - 4H 6M 4s @ 96/16 - 5H 39M 5s @ 96/24 - 3H 46M 3s (Yes, I know I'm a mathematical nerd.....I'll even go as far as to admit I graduated high school with math honours!) Since Queen concerts historically have run for 2 hours, or more, a whole show will not fit on a 4GB card at 96/24 HD quality, so 8GB cards would be necessary for that. I'd recommend getting an 8GB card anyways, cos it's cheaper per GB, and like I hinted, different concerts will run different lengths, so you may want to be better safe than sorry :-) It's paid off in my favour really, when I chose to get a 2GB SD card for 48/44.1-quality recordings instead of a 1GB when I started out bootlegging....The Police show here last year, was about 10 minutes off from maxing out my 2GB card at 44.1/24 quality! My Edirol was made later able to support the SDHC cards by means of a firmware upgrade, which I did shortly before mailing this out to my friend in Japan. Sounds so nice really, the recordings I have in 48/24, but 96/24 will be a huge step up really once I'm able to upgrade to that, and use my older Edirol to replace the Sony Hi-MD unit entirely. As for the SDHC cards themselves, I recommend the Kingston brand, which is available here in Canada. Am not knowledgeable about what's available in Europe, but I would be willing to help you out if you wish to get one of these from here, Martin. The Edirol R-09HR is also available here in Edmonton as well. I believe Long & McQuade, who I know for sure carry it, have it for $350-ish CDN$, give or take. Will call them later to find out the actual cost. It's not too too much higher in price than the older unit, from what I recall the one time I looked at it so far there. (4GB) link (8GB) link Interestingly enough, CC also carries Patriot 16GB SDHC cards, but I don't know how good they are: link Best suited for recording festivals IMO though, lol! (Encore calculation....11H 18M 10s @ 96/16, 7H 26M 45s @ 96/24 :-) As well, if you want a sample of my Edirol recordings, here's a couple here :) Spice Girls - 2 Become 1 (Vancouver - FLAC - 48/24): link Van Halen - Beautiful Girls (Edm |
| Mr. Scully 08.07.2008 03:54 |
Inu-liger, thanks for your reply. I have no doubt I'll get a 8 GB SDHC card and Kingston is available everywhere here so that is not an issue. Although I think a standard wav file (48/16?) will be enough for me :-) I've already told you your samples sound pretty good - but in the end it's the mic that makes the difference :-) When it comes to recorders, the main issue is how long the battery can last, if the firmware doesn't allow only a limited amount of time to be recorded or what features it offers. For example Olympus is said to last 12 hours while Edirol only about 7-8, that is quite a difference (since I'll be recording about 10 gigs in row :-). Also I've heard Edirol has a non-standard microphone input? So, if you have Edirol - how long do the batteries last, is the microphone connected via a standard jack (3.5 mm) and would the 96/24 quality be significantly better or is it useful just for some more post-processing in case something goes wrong? |
| inu-liger 08.07.2008 04:48 |
Mr. Scully wrote: Inu-liger, thanks for your reply. I have no doubt I'll get a 8 GB SDHC card and Kingston is available everywhere here so that is not an issue. Although I think a standard wav file (48/16?) will be enough for me :-) I've already told you your samples sound pretty good - but in the end it's the mic that makes the difference :-) When it comes to recorders, the main issue is how long the battery can last, if the firmware doesn't allow only a limited amount of time to be recorded or what features it offers. For example Olympus is said to last 12 hours while Edirol only about 7-8, that is quite a difference (since I'll be recording about 10 gigs in row :-). Also I've heard Edirol has a non-standard microphone input?Ahh, the line-in input. If you are using stereo microphones, preferably the binaural kind w/ the 1/8" stereo plugs, you will need a battery module ('signal booster') sort of like this one for example, otherwise the Line-In port will not pick up a signal: link I definitely recommend using it this way rather than a Mic In input, as those will not sound good, and will be distorted. However, DON'T leave this plugged into the recorder, nor the mikes plugged into this, when you are not using it. These only work when it is either connected to the recording device, or the microphones are connected to it. Otherwise the battery WILL drain despite the signal not being really read by the recorder, which is dumb I know. I've had to replace the batteries once cos of this, and stupid me forgot to unplug it after our 2nd last show >.< (That's what I get for rush packing my equipment after a show...) Btw for live concerts, I usually set my Input level to around 13-16, depending how loud I feel the concert will be. Usually 15 does fine. By the way, I do want to ask how you plan to archive each show after another, if you're going to 10 shows in a row. Will you not be bringing a laptop w/ a DVD burner of sorts with you? I can't see how you plan to do so without either that, or a high-speed connection w/ private FTP storage at some stop points, unless you've already got that planned out. Also, as I mentioned, Queen shows typically last 2-2.5 hours, so you may wanna keep that in mind of course :) That will be over 24 hours of material there at least. So, if you have Edirol - how long do the batteries last, is the microphone connected via a standard jack (3.5 mm) and would the 96/24 quality be significantly better or is it useful just for some more post-processing in case something goes wrong?Well, even though apparently a lot of people can't tell the difference between DVD quality and HD quality (mind you, I think they listen to a lot of it on low-end systems), the 96/24 transfer will have more detail to it, and will downsample better, so that say a CD-quality master for trading purposes will sound better in quality even when mixed down than say a MiniDisc Hi-MD recording at the same sample-bitrate of 44.1/16, because the information will translate better. My bandmate Josh noticed this right away even back a couple years ago, when I got him into recording their demos in 96/24, which we continue using to this day. Their demos sounded better even in downsampled CD quality than earlier stereo-only demos recorded at CD quality. Another thing to consider too is the quality of the microphones as you said. The top high-end mikes will sound the best of course, so the added samplerate resolution will only add to that. But even mid-end mikes should sound better as well than at lower DAT-like samplerates. For the issue regarding batteries, I've never had a problem really, cos what I do is buy fresh batteries to use at each show I bootleg, even my band's own. This way, I can record any support acts to set levels if necessary, and still have time to record the main acts :) |
| Mr. Scully 08.07.2008 13:28 |
So: - is the battery module necessary? I currently do have a mic with a small battery inside but it works fine (and sounds exactly the same) no matter if the battery is or isn't used :-) Or does the battery have to be there if the mic is connected via the line-in input? - archiving shows - I don't know yet. I will have to record approx. 22 hours of music so I assume two 8 GB cards should be enough. Of course, there's always a risk that the security will confiscate the recorder incl. the card inside ;-( I will have to think about this. In some cases I will definitely be able to save the recording (FTP) because I will stay in my friends' homes before the gig. - since so far my recordings were a bit lossy (minidisk + analog transfer), I'm sure a WAV will be an improvement anyway, no matter if it's 48/16 or 96/24 :-) I wonder if I decide to buy another mic or not. If I remember well, a guy on QueenZone (Adam?) suggested some cheap but excellent brand of microphones (almost home-made, some US dealer). |
| inu-liger 09.07.2008 01:33 |
Mr. Scully wrote: So: - is the battery module necessary? I currently do have a mic with a small battery inside but it works fine (and sounds exactly the same) no matter if the battery is or isn't used :-) Or does the battery have to be there if the mic is connected via the line-in input?Absolutely necessary, for line-in stereo recordings. I really prefer not to use internal solutions, but rather stand-alone external devices instead. I'm sure your microphone works and sounds great, but I don't like the idea of a microphone with a built-in signal booster ('battery module') personally. And if it doesn't make an audible difference between switching the battery 'on and off', then the batteries are most likely dead. Also, line-in recordings will provide MUCH better clarity and quality than internally powered mic-in recordings, since those will most likely be monaural as well, in addition to easily being distorted and muddy. - archiving shows - I don't know yet. I will have to record approx. 22 hours of music so I assume two 8 GB cards should be enough. Of course, there's always a risk that the security will confiscate the recorder incl. the card inside ;-( I will have to think about this. In some cases I will definitely be able to save the recording (FTP) because I will stay in my friends' homes before the gig.For that, I suggest getting two 8GB cards and a 4GB card, and if possible a 2nd recorder (like say the older Edirol) as backups. That's what I plan to do for next year's Q+PR North American tour - Canadian rather - when I plan to attend as many shows here as I can afford, depending how manny they announce (I expect there'll be more than two dates :P ) Plus also, having extra memory cards will relieve a bit of the pressure of having to upload shows to your FTP, DVD-R etc etc after every show, especially if your travel and overnight schedules may not allow for much time for that. You could record two, three shows in a row before getting to an appropriate stop-point to copy the files. Also, on the side, I recommend using QuickPAR to create PAR recovery files for your files, if you do indeed upload them to a private server. Not only do these act as checksum files, but they also contain blocks to repair the files if they are missing or have damaged blocks of data. I usually include these on some uploads of mine, especially in the case of hard-to-obtain CD rips. - since so far my recordings were a bit lossy (minidisk + analog transfer), I'm sure a WAV will be an improvement anyway, no matter if it's 48/16 or 96/24 :-)Hells yeah. MAJOR improvement. Many lossless trading groups that deal with concert bootleg recordings are moreso forbidding lossy recordings these days, I believe. Lossy recordings always have nasty effects on the sound quality, no matter how 'effective' the compression used. I hate MP3's really, cos I can easily tell them apart audibly from lossless audio formats :-P I wonder if I decide to buy another mic or not. If I remember well, a guy on QueenZone (Adam?) suggested some cheap but excellent brand of microphones (almost home-made, some US dealer).That was me. link What you want to get, should you decide you want to buy new mikes (and keep your current ones as backup actually...) is get the binaural omnidirectional stereo microphones, since those will pick up audience, rather than cardioid unidirectional microphones which will only pick up what you are facing, so if you face away from the stage with a pair of cardioid mikes, you won't be picking up the music, but the drunks behind you as the main act :-) Sound Professionals has lots of samples on most of their pages for their microphone products from many live recordings (including Paul McCartney somewhere :-) Also, this is what I use: link |
| Mr. Scully 09.07.2008 04:14 |
As for the battery in my mic, I can switch it off and the result is IMO basically the same as when switched on. And it's NOT dead because when it's dead and I switch it on, nothing is recorded (yes, unfortunately I have tested that already ;-) As for the mics, do you seriously recommend an omnidirectional mic? I don't think I will be turning back or facing somewhere else than stage ;) so I don't think I want to hear too much audience on my recording. I've always thought unidirectional mics are being used for bootlegging? Anyway, since US dollar is in deep shit right now, I think I can buy a better mic than what you have :) Something around $100 shouldn't be a problem. So should I get something like this? link Or the ear mounted mics? (I always think they must catch attention of the security because who would listen to a walkman on a live gig?) |
| inu-liger 09.07.2008 15:17 |
Mr. Scully wrote: As for the battery in my mic, I can switch it off and the result is IMO basically the same as when switched on. And it's NOT dead because when it's dead and I switch it on, nothing is recorded (yes, unfortunately I have tested that already ;-)Hehe OK. As for the mics, do you seriously recommend an omnidirectional mic? I don't think I will be turning back or facing somewhere else than stage ;) so I don't think I want to hear too much audience on my recording. I've always thought unidirectional mics are being used for bootlegging?They are sometimes, but omnidirectional better captures the feel of the live concert and audience. To be honest, if you're worried about the audience overpowering the band, don't worry about it. My Van Halen concert bootleg probably has the loudest you'll hear in my recordings for audience, aside from a few small moments in my Spice Girls recording (don't think there are any of those in the sample I posted here). Anyway, since US dollar is in deep shit right now, I think I can buy a better mic than what you have :) Something around $100 shouldn't be a problem. So should I get something like this? link Or the ear mounted mics? (I always think they must catch attention of the security because who would listen to a walkman on a live gig?)Yeah, security would have a wtf moment. I would't recommend getting those or the headphone mounted ones. Those definitely might catch the attention of security. Plus, if someone bumps into you, those might fall and make unwanted noise on your recording :P That's why I prefer the croakie mounts. They in place, and IN place at that. Only noise you would hear is you adjusting the position of the croakies on your glass frame, before the show starts :-) You should actually get this combo deal here link $119 These are the SP-BMC-12 microphones, which are normally $99 on their own, and the croakie mounts which are also $30 on their own, so you save $10 here on this combo :) |
| Mr. Scully 09.07.2008 15:50 |
Thanks, that looks nice. What is that "croakie" thing, even my huge dictionary doesn't know that word :) Something that the mics are mounted on and can be put on glasses obviously? :-) Also, it seems like I'll need the battery module after all... which one? |
| inu-liger 09.07.2008 18:20 |
Mr. Scully wrote: Thanks, that looks nice. What is that "croakie" thing, even my huge dictionary doesn't know that word :) Something that the mics are mounted on and can be put on glasses obviously? :-)Yes. You feed the arms of the glass frame through each microphone croakie hole, with the microphone sort of hanging 'below' the frame, if that makes sense. (I think you can see it in the pictures on that site) I think the term croakie comes from Australia, but not sure :P Be careful though when inserting the glasses into them. It can be somewhat easily to accidentally loosen the internal part covering the sides of the microphone if you're rough with handling them. I had this happen with my friend who used them in Japan, but I was able to have them replaced for free thanks to the warranty :) I dunno if you yourself wear glasses, but if you don't, hopefully it shouldn't be hard to find a 'fake' pair :) Also, it seems like I'll need the battery module after all... which one?I use this one: link There are others in the same category, up to you depending on your preferences: link Note: don't use bass roll, as this will cut off bass frequencies Also by the way, I inquired with Long & McQuade about the Edirol R-09HR. It is actually $399 + GST, so $418.95 CDN total. It was the older one I actually got for $350-ish, so pardon me for confusing that one :P Still, that's not a bad price considering those are new. If you decide to get one, let me know and I'll give you advice on what settings to use, what not to use. |
| Mr. Scully 12.07.2008 03:39 |
Thanks, inu-liger. At the moment I really like the Edirol R-09 but the improved (HR) one, it's a shame it's about $100 more expensive than the Olympus (which seems to have more features). But Olympus is metallic (we have metal detectors in our biggest concert arena) and some people complained about the low level of volume when recording so I'd prefer the Edirol. I'll have to think about it, $100 is not a small difference. As for the mic, I will decide between the one from Sound Professionals and one from Church Audio (the latter one is recommended by many tapers). Another question is whether to take just a battery box (~$30) or a preamp ($170) - for loud gigs a battery box would be enough but the preamp is apparently useful for indoor venues with lots of bass. I think I will buy an expensive mic and just the battery box for now and we'll see how it goes. |
| inu-liger 12.07.2008 04:56 |
Mr. Scully wrote: Thanks, inu-liger. At the moment I really like the Edirol R-09 but the improved (HR) one, it's a shame it's about $100 more expensive than the Olympus (which seems to have more features). But Olympus is metallic (we have metal detectors in our biggest concert arena) and some people complained about the low level of volume when recording so I'd prefer the Edirol. I'll have to think about it, $100 is not a small difference.Yeah I've heard about the metal detectors in your country's venues, as well as some other European venues. I don't think we have many venues that have them installed, but if memory serves me correctly, the PNE Coliseum that I saw Queen and Paul Rodgers at two years ago in Vancouver (might've?) had metal detectors (my memory of the whole experience is a bit foggy, strangely enough...there's even some song performances I can't distinctly remember, which is not helped by the fact there are no bootlegs of the show available even to this day, which still infuriates me) I remember security being a bit tighter there than at Rexall Place, which I had little trouble bootlegging there twice already (could have been thrice, HAD I had my equipment a year and a half earlier....I could have bootlegged Bryan Adams :-) As for the mic, I will decide between the one from Sound Professionals and one from Church Audio (the latter one is recommended by many tapers). Another question is whether to take just a battery box (~$30) or a preamp ($170) - for loud gigs a battery box would be enough but the preamp is apparently useful for indoor venues with lots of bass.A battery box should suffice. I've heard of Church Audio microphones, and yeah they do seem to be well regarded. The main bootleg for my Roger Waters recording, which was matrixed with another local taper's recording from the same show (released as "Two Loonies Are Better Than One" - inside joke that mainly Canadians will get, re: the title), which I'll post two FLAC files of one of the songs from the show, "Have A Cigar", with some lineage and location info inu-liger Version link SP-BMC-2 binaural microphones w/SP-EMC1 croakies > MM-CBM battery module > Sony MZ-NH600 Hi-MD @ 16-bit/44.1kHz Location: Floor Section, in the center of Row 1 TDD Version link Church Audio stealth cardioids > Church Audio ST9100 preamp (bass filter on) > Edirol R-09 w/4GB SDHC card @ 24-bit/48kHz Location: Section 119, near the floor (Lower aisle to left of stage) Note: What's ironic about his recording, is that despite these microphones supposedly being stealth, he had them placed on top of his cap, and he by pure chance of fate ended up being seated behind the concert promoter(!) who spotted and noticed him recording the show, and got pissed. So he got whisked away by security right near the end of DSotM....long story! Also, I've seen several bootlegging websites recommend NOT using bass roll options, along with AGC - Auto Gain Controls, which the Edirols have. Again, will make recommendations on settings later on. Just to give you an idea of alternate scenarios here :-) I think I will buy an expensive mic and just the battery box for now and we'll see how it goes.Yeah. Also, I didn't realize this, but Sound Professionals do carry both Edirol recorders, the HR one being available here, again for $399 US: link As for your concerns about battery life and how much the Edirol HR uses, I did quite a bit of research, mainly into milliamps and mAh (milliamps per hour). If you use AA NiMH batteries rated, for example, 2500mAh on the Edirol R-09HR which draws power from the batteries at 370 mA / milliamps per second... That 2500mAh ends up being, after converting 2500 by 60 (for minutes in an hour) and 60 again (for second |
| Mr. Scully 12.07.2008 05:46 |
inu-liger, you're not making my decision any easier :) Your sample has significantly clearer vocals and overall sound while the Church Audio sample seems to have better drums and sounds more natural. So it's still like 50/50 for me :) As for the batteries, I will indeed be using NiMH 2500 mAh ones. I didn't really study your calculation but 13 hours don't seem likely to me :) On the other hand, I will be travelling across Western Europe so I assume there will be electricity in every hotel and no problem with charging the batteries after every gig ;-) |
| inu-liger 12.07.2008 06:00 |
Also, getting back to memory cards, how's this for mindblowing: link Kingston 32GB Class 4 SDHC card $148.99 US These guys don't ship internationally, but I have a friend in New York who could order this :P This could be really useful if, again in worst case scenario, you're not able to make backups after each show. It's roughly $0.0025 cheaper per GB than the 8GB Class 4 Kingston card the same site offers, so it comes down to your budget and preferences. Ain't trying to really make ya go broke here :P PCM recording times for 32GB 88.2/16 @ 24H 36M 29s 88.2/24 @ 16H 24M 19s 96/16 @ 22H 36M 20s 96/24 @ 15H 4M 13s |
| inu-liger 12.07.2008 06:03 |
Mr. Scully wrote: inu-liger, you're not making my decision any easier :) Your sample has significantly clearer vocals and overall sound while the Church Audio sample seems to have better drums and sounds more natural. So it's still like 50/50 for me :)I'm not exactly known for making things easy to begin with ;-) Besides, it wasn't easy for me either, doing all the research I had to last year in a short time frame. I'm trying to give you as much info as possible, even if it's really excessive! :-) By the way, I forgot to mention that, since TDD used cardioids, those are the ones that are unidirectional, so you can REALLY tell when he moves his head (which happens at least once in his recording) As for the batteries, I will indeed be using NiMH 2500 mAh ones. I didn't really study your calculation but 13 hours don't seem likely to me :) On the other hand, I will be travelling across Western Europe so I assume there will be electricity in every hotel and no problem with charging the batteries after every gig ;-)Yeah, that harks back to my comment about using fresh batteries for every concert anyways. And my calculations were theoretical anyways. As mentioned before, playback on those devices uses more power than recording does. Rechargable batteries indeed will be better, especially the NiMH ones :-) Costs more, but you rake in the savings in the long run. I hope you wouldn't need to buy a whole whack of power supply converters for each country, LOL! Edit: Oh BAH, I think you're right. What I didn't take into account, regarding the suggested battery usage life for Edirols, is that its for when it uses TWO batteries. So yeah, 13 hours might not be right, but it should still be significantly longer than alkaline. |
| Mr. Scully 14.07.2008 16:02 |
inu-liger - I sent you an email, there are still some questions I need answers to. |