| Gratzi 11.06.2008 14:17 |
I am speechless and have tears in my eyes. A devastating fire surrounded the 14th century German Church (in Gothic style) in my hometown (and it's still burning). The roof of the tower already collapsed. Here's the church at the beginning of the 20th century: link And here are some images that my room mate's cousin took: link link (they're heartbreaking) The bottom line is the authorities are helpless and to blame for this. They've been struggling with consolidating the monument for more than 10 years. And the little that they did was a piss poor job. I'm so angry and I feel so helpless being 120 kms away from home. Edit: and some videos link ;_; |
| Raststätte-Knödel 11.06.2008 16:43 |
That's sad to see |
| The Mir@cle 12.06.2008 02:35 |
I'm sorry Grati... :( Sad to see such a thing in flames. Anyway, you feel helpless? You would have felt the same if you were standing there and watch the fire getting bigger and bigger I guess. |
| The Real Wizard 12.06.2008 12:48 |
Even though much of Europe has seccularized, they really do preserve their history and, particularly, their churches. It's unfortunate to see this happen. |
| pittrek 12.06.2008 13:03 |
Ouch ! There is a similar looking church from the 12th century in my town, it's really bad to see this |
| AspiringPhilosophe 12.06.2008 21:54 |
OMG.....that's horrible!! To see ACTUAL history going up in flames like that. It makes me want to cry myself |
| Yara 12.06.2008 23:17 |
It sounds by your description that there's no one to blame. The authorities can't predict where there's going to be a fire; once the fire has started, it's not easy to deal with it when it comes to historical monuments (in this case, the church). I wonder how the fire initiated - do the authorities have a clue? I guess it's their responsibility, now, to find out how the fire initiated in order to prevent similar catastrophes. |
| Charlie Brown 13.06.2008 00:24 |
Those photos are quite sad Gratzi. I express my deep sympathies to you and all your fellow towns people. I wonder if one of the workmen labouring on that tower might have accidently started the fire with a welding torch or something? |
| you_rock_my_socks06 13.06.2008 05:51 |
Aw that's sad :( |
| Treasure Moment 13.06.2008 05:56 |
A church burning? i cry tears of happyness :) FUCK THE CHURCH!!!! |
| Saif 13.06.2008 06:24 |
Treasure Moment wrote: A church burning? i cry tears of happyness :) FUCK THE CHURCH!!!!Perhaps you should stop posting here, dickhead? I'm an atheist myself but I don't go around denouncing other people's religions, nor do I celebrate the burning of churches. You are, and always shall be, remembered as an assface. And on topic now, I'm sorry to hear this Gratzi. The authorities have mishandled the issue. Sir GH is right, Europe HAS secularized a lot, yet treasures its culture, which it should. I can speak from experience. At the time I lived in Sweden(1997-2001), 85% of the adult population professed to be atheists. But I'm pretty sure more than 40% atleast attended church, whether for cultural reasons, tradition or whatever. And they were quite proud of their cathedrals. E.G. The Lund cathedral. This is as stupid as when the Taliban blew up the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan despite the UN's condemnation, or when the Babri Mosque was defaced in India. Though I was born a Muslim, personally I hold a very low opinion of Islam, being an atheist. But the destruction of a 400-year old Mosque, for whatever reason, is highly uncivil. And Yara, I believe Gratzi hold the authorities partly responsible because they neglected maintenance and possible renovation of the church as a result of which it had a weak foundation, undermining any chance of survival against possible arson. |
| The Real Wizard 13.06.2008 12:22 |
Treasure Moment wrote: A church burning? i cry tears of happyness :) FUCK THE CHURCH!!!!Your opinions on music and politics reek of generally harmless ignorance, but with a comment like this you should just join a vehement anti-religious cult, honestly. But please, go play on the highway first. |
| Treasure Moment 13.06.2008 12:40 |
Sir GHyou are just waaaay too stupid to grasp the things i say about music and politics, you are a dumb sheep who cant use your mind, simply a stupid person. |
| Treasure Moment 13.06.2008 13:29 |
Saif wrote:Dickhead is your NAME! i say whatever i feel likeTreasure Moment wrote: A church burning? i cry tears of happyness :) FUCK THE CHURCH!!!!Perhaps you should stop posting here, dickhead? I'm an atheist myself but I don't go around denouncing other people's religions, nor do I celebrate the burning of churches. You are, and always shall be, remembered as an assface. And on topic now, I'm sorry to hear this Gratzi. The authorities have mishandled the issue. Sir GH is right, Europe HAS secularized a lot, yet treasures its culture, which it should. I can speak from experience. At the time I lived in Sweden(1997-2001), 85% of the adult population professed to be atheists. But I'm pretty sure more than 40% atleast attended church, whether for cultural reasons, tradition or whatever. And they were quite proud of their cathedrals. E.G. The Lund cathedral. This is as stupid as when the Taliban blew up the Buddhist statues in Afghanistan despite the UN's condemnation, or when the Babri Mosque was defaced in India. Though I was born a Muslim, personally I hold a very low opinion of Islam, being an atheist. But the destruction of a 400-year old Mosque, for whatever reason, is highly uncivil. And Yara, I believe Gratzi hold the authorities partly responsible because they neglected maintenance and possible renovation of the church as a result of which it had a weak foundation, undermining any chance of survival against possible arson. |
| Gratzi 13.06.2008 13:38 |
Treasure Moment wrote: A church burning? i cry tears of happyness :) FUCK THE CHURCH!!!!It's not the fact that it's a church you ignorant little fuckwit, it is a 14th century historical monument. But I wouldn't expect someone or something like yourself to know what I'm talking about. Anyway, I went home the other day and was shocked.I took some photos today - just sad... link link link link link link You will notice in the photos what a bloody 'fabulous' job the authorities have done in the past 18 years. Who in thei full mind paints a 14th century Gothic church WHITE after they had put a thick layer of plaster underneath? I've learnt several things these days as to how the monuments are 'taken care of' here. The lady in charge of the department that takes care of historical and cultural monuments within the county council is both idiotic and incompetent. The German-saxon houses in the historical centre of the town are about to colapse and have to be restored - but NO! We have to keep them in their natural state. Same with the medieval defence wall. I won't bring the Roman castra in the county into discussion, because that's even sadder. When I was in high-school our class developed a project to save the church. But who listens to a bunch of kids? After that we had to drop it because we had to go to university. The cause of the fire is unkown till this moment. Some unofficial sources say that they've seen sevelar kids running away from it right before the fire started. We'll just have to wait and see. :S Edit: link -this is how it looked before. And it HAD the tallest tower in Transylvania. ;_; |
| Yara 13.06.2008 21:29 |
Gratzi wrote:Hi. Yes, it's sad. Well, but, I don't want to disturb you even more, but it's the policy of the whole thing that it's baffling, because, judging by what you said, what seems to be, at a first glance, just lack of care is in fact a policy of preservation - that is to say, the monuments have to be left just like they are, without repair, in their "natural state", as you said. This seems to be a conscious policy, but I can be wrong.Treasure Moment wrote: A church burning? i cry tears of happyness :) FUCK THE CHURCH!!!!It's not the fact that it's a church you ignorant little fuckwit, it is a 14th century historical monument. But I wouldn't expect someone or something like yourself to know what I'm talking about. You will notice in the photos what a bloody 'fabulous' job the authorities have done in the past 18 years. Who in their full mind paints a 14th century Gothic church WHITE after they had put a thick layer of plaster underneath? I've learnt several things these days as to how the monuments are 'taken care of' here. The lady in charge of the department that takes care of historical and cultural monuments within the county council is both idiotic and incompetent. The German-saxon houses in the historical centre of the town are about to colapse and have to be restored - but NO! We have to keep them in their natural state. Either way, the church is not in its natural state anymore, if that's what they aimed at. At the same time, they painted the church white and pretty much misrepresented (I don't know the history of the church) what could be called the "natural state" of the monument. I'm just wondering, I'd love to know your thoughts. Monuments like these usually go through many reforms and repairs and are hardly a faithful depiction of what they looked like in the past, so it's really annoying to see the authoritires' reckless atitude towards it, probably they're justifying it in terms of a preservation policy, but it'd be nonsense. Just wondering, as I said. Fact is the damage is already done, unfortunately. It's very sad. If it was intentional, it's even worse! Like the guys bombing Dresden in the II world war, some thing it was legitimate, some think it wasn't necessary at all, but fact is that a very beautiful historical city was ruined by violence. Take care, and it's at the same time very beautiful to see your care and your emotional attachment to the monument - that's what gives them value, after all. * hug * |
| Charlie Brown 14.06.2008 01:45 |
Thanks for updating us Gratzi. From your photos i believe the building can be salvaged, thankfully. If a bunch of delinquent kid are responsible for the fire they must be punished to the full extent of the law. Yara made a good point about the historic preservation policy in your town. The people who manage historic buildings in your town must think they are doing the right thing by doing as little maintence work as possible too them. We have the same problems with historic sites in the USA sometimes. Or also with forrest lands. Some people think that removing dead or extremely dry trees from forrests is excessive interference with nature. Even though the dead or dry trees serve as fuel for forrest fires. |
| Gratzi 14.06.2008 03:42 |
Thanks for the support and replies, guys. I wasn't expecting so many. I guess this thing affected me so much because 1. I feel very attached to this town and 2. history and archaeology have always been a passion of mine. Now this thing about preserving monuments is a bit tricky. Preservation is not always synonymous with leaving an object in its actual state, if that object (in our case monument) is in serious danger of being lost. - like some of the Egyptian tombs for example. I mentioned the German-saxon houses, and how deplorable their situation is at the moment. I don't understand their decision to 'preserve' them like this : doing nothing! In their case they could use a layer of plaster and start painting them because what is significant for them is the architecture. This type of restoration is suitable for this particular situation because it preserves the architecture. This way the historical centre would look clean and stilish, not like after bombardment. In the church's case, plaster and paint are the last things that it needed. Here the preservation can be done thru a discreet, yet strong consolidation, like it's normally done when it comes to this type of monuments. This on the other hand doesn't look like after an air raid, but it gives the place a sort of medieval, mystical atmosphere. I don't know how their planning to deal with the situation. They'll be probably rebuild the tower's roof, and the rest of the roof that has been damaged. Both original bells have been lost for good ;_;. I'm not sure what happened to the interior. Hope the organ survived. :S Now the town is in the middle of the electoral campaign for a new mayor, and both candidates in the second round decided to donate their campaign money to the church. I guess the current mayor is losing ground because of the latest events. What people do not know is that the church is of the county council's competence. |
| danwhite89 14.06.2008 09:05 |
No offence dude, but I don't see why you're upset about the church burning. Maybe it's because I'm atheist, I'm not sure. Sure it's history, but think of it more optimistically. At least nobody was hurt. Although if my church (I say church, I mean Newcastle United's football stadium) burnt down, I'd probably be in tears. |
| The Real Wizard 14.06.2008 19:19 |
Treasure Moment wrote:I'm a stupid sheep because I don't condone the burning of churches. Wow, I've been told.Sir GHyou are just waaaay too stupid to grasp the things i say about music and politics, you are a dumb sheep who cant use your mind, simply a stupid person. |
| Treasure Moment 15.06.2008 04:32 |
Sir GHyes! what do you think a church is? a good place? its an EVIL place used for brainwashing the stupid people and limiting them in a retarded way of life and thinking. |
| emrabt 15.06.2008 04:49 |
Treasure Moment wrote:SHUT UP AND LISTEN TO THE ORIGNAL POSTERSir GHyes! what do you think a church is? a good place? its an EVIL place used for brainwashing the stupid people and limiting them in a retarded way of life and thinking. It's not the fact that’s its a church it was the fact that it's an irreplaceable 14th century monument, you can't get history back. You might not like churches but there are loads of things it stood for IN THE PAST, there is probably a thousand stories the locals could tell you about it. It was something there town has been proud of. You really need to start respecting other people opinions. |
| The Real Wizard 16.06.2008 01:39 |
Treasure Moment wrote:As much as I oppose much of what Christianity stands for, one cannot deny how charitable and justice-oriented these people can be. Certain branches of the faith have contributed immeasurable amounts of money and help for third-world countries, as well as in their own communities.Sir GHyes! what do you think a church is? a good place? its an EVIL place used for brainwashing the stupid people and limiting them in a retarded way of life and thinking. There's much more to religion than the stories and systems of belief themselves. But of course, you who have probably never attended a church service nor spent time getting to know religious folk know better, as always. Atheism is just as "stupid" (to use your language) as monotheism or polytheism. All require an unproven belief in a particular idea of how unseen things in the world work. |
| The Mir@cle 16.06.2008 02:41 |
Surprises me to see that they have been able to save some of the church. There is still space to rebuild it, isn't there? |
| Gratzi 16.06.2008 10:26 |
Space there is, money - I'm not so sure. I think those in charge should resort to the community for this one. After all, half the town was gathered around the church only to see their symbol burning like that. And I was right about the mayor. The people have been blaming him, and at yesterday's elections the social democrat candidate won. Noooooooooooo! ;_; |
| AspiringPhilosophe 16.06.2008 11:47 |
I'm sure that the community would chip in to help re-build it. Are they going to re-build it again? |
| Gratzi 20.06.2008 12:34 |
Guess what? The police found out who did it: 3 street children who were literally playing with fire near the wooden scaffoldings that were surrounding the tower. X__X What is there more to say........... Unbelievable. |
| The Mir@cle 20.06.2008 13:16 |
What's wrong with being a social democrat. ;-) |
| Charlie Brown 21.06.2008 02:01 |
Gratzi wrote: Guess what? The police found out who did it: 3 street children who were literally playing with fire near the wooden scaffoldings that were surrounding the tower. X__X What is there more to say........... Unbelievable.Thanks for updating us Gratzi. Unfortunately for young delinquents to play with fire is not uncommon. A teenage boy set a fire in a supermarket recently in my area. It was put out before in anyone was injured or serious damage done. |
| Treasure Moment 21.06.2008 07:01 |
Sir GH wrote:they arent that "friendly" as you think when they help people, they do it ONLY because they want to brainwash and get new members to their insane religion.Treasure Moment wrote:As much as I oppose much of what Christianity stands for, one cannot deny how charitable and justice-oriented these people can be. Certain branches of the faith have contributed immeasurable amounts of money and help for third-world countries, as well as in their own communities. There's much more to religion than the stories and systems of belief themselves. But of course, you who have probably never attended a church service nor spent time getting to know religious folk know better, as always. Atheism is just as "stupid" (to use your language) as monotheism or polytheism. All require an unproven belief in a particular idea of how unseen things in the world work.Sir GHyes! what do you think a church is? a good place? its an EVIL place used for brainwashing the stupid people and limiting them in a retarded way of life and thinking. |
| Lady Nyx 21.06.2008 11:22 |
Charlie Brown wrote:the thing about that is, they may have bene young kids who didnt realize what potential danger they were near. kids can be ignorant on that sometimes.Gratzi wrote: Guess what? The police found out who did it: 3 street children who were literally playing with fire near the wooden scaffoldings that were surrounding the tower. X__X What is there more to say........... Unbelievable.Thanks for updating us Gratzi. Unfortunately for young delinquents to play with fire is not uncommon. A teenage boy set a fire in a supermarket recently in my area. It was put out before in anyone was injured or serious damage done. so sad to see a brilliant piece of irreplacable history. to me (this is my opinion) its kinda pointless to rebuild it for historical purposes, but then again, i assume there were people who attended that church, so we cant take that time away from them. so sad. |
| Lady Nyx 21.06.2008 11:27 |
Sir GH wrote:articulatly and beautifully said, but its best to just ignore him, as much as wed all like for him to have a civil discussion, its not going to happen.Treasure Moment wrote:As much as I oppose much of what Christianity stands for, one cannot deny how charitable and justice-oriented these people can be. Certain branches of the faith have contributed immeasurable amounts of money and help for third-world countries, as well as in their own communities. There's much more to religion than the stories and systems of belief themselves. But of course, you who have probably never attended a church service nor spent time getting to know religious folk know better, as always. Atheism is just as "stupid" (to use your language) as monotheism or polytheism. All require an unproven belief in a particular idea of how unseen things in the world work.Sir GHyes! what do you think a church is? a good place? its an EVIL place used for brainwashing the stupid people and limiting them in a retarded way of life and thinking. lets try to respect peoples opinion no matter how "stupid" they may seem to be, and i know that youre simply fighting back because of his appalling answer. |
| Treasure Moment 21.06.2008 13:41 |
Lady Nyx wrote:whats appalling is that you think my post is appalling.Sir GH wrote:articulatly and beautifully said, but its best to just ignore him, as much as wed all like for him to have a civil discussion, its not going to happen. lets try to respect peoples opinion no matter how "stupid" they may seem to be, and i know that youre simply fighting back because of his appalling answer.Treasure Moment wrote:As much as I oppose much of what Christianity stands for, one cannot deny how charitable and justice-oriented these people can be. Certain branches of the faith have contributed immeasurable amounts of money and help for third-world countries, as well as in their own communities. There's much more to religion than the stories and systems of belief themselves. But of course, you who have probably never attended a church service nor spent time getting to know religious folk know better, as always. Atheism is just as "stupid" (to use your language) as monotheism or polytheism. All require an unproven belief in a particular idea of how unseen things in the world work.Sir GHyes! what do you think a church is? a good place? its an EVIL place used for brainwashing the stupid people and limiting them in a retarded way of life and thinking. |
