Boy Thomas Raker 26.07.2006 10:32 |
When discussing a reviewer from the Times who is unhappy with her words being misrepresented to appear like she's given a favourable review to the WWRY musical, Brian said "...she is very stupid for missing the point of a show which was destined to play to packed ecstatic houses for years, and give pleasure to literally millions of people, who go out smiling, feeling they have been so thoroughly entertained that they come back, time after time. In fact, people might just view her like they view the guy at Decca who turned down the Beatles. They might view her as stupid. And sad. And unable to admit one of the biggest mistakes in the theatre reviewing EVER." I think that Brian's attempts to justify the ticket sales of WWRY as a sign of creative success are misguided and a little sad. Virtually every review that I've seen for WRRY says that the story is pretty goofy and far fetched, with bad dick jokes used to frame the songs of Queen. The people who review it favourably say that the saving grace is the music, the people who don't like the music and the story don't like it. Seems fair enough. The point is, ticket sales don't make it good, and Brian should accept that. If it's all about sales, then Brian should accept the fact that Queen doesn't have one album in the 100 selling albums of all time, so that means that Queen II and ANATO don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with such musical giants as Backstreet Boys, who have two albums that sold 14 and 13 million respectively, Britney Spears and her 13 million selling debut and of course MC Hammer, who sold 10 million copies of Please Hammer, don't hurt 'em. Never mind Kenny G. and his 12 million selling album. Does this mean that since millions of buyers have been entertained by the aforementioned albums, that they are good or beyond criticism? If so, then Queen is nowhere near the level of the Beatles or the Who or Zeppelin, they're more in the realm of Average White Band and Survivor, groups who had a few big albums in the US but not much more. |
Fireplace 26.07.2006 10:48 |
Boy Thomas Raker wrote: If it's all about sales, then Brian should accept the fact that Queen doesn't have one album in the 100 selling albums of all time, so that means that Queen II and ANATO don't deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with such musical giants as Backstreet Boys, who have two albums that sold 14 and 13 million respectively, Britney Spears and her 13 million selling debut and of course MC Hammer, who sold 10 million copies of Please Hammer, don't hurt 'em. Never mind Kenny G. and his 12 million selling album.As a Canadian you'd be forgiving for thinking that the US is the whole wide world, but the top 100 of album sales in Europe does include Queen and does not include MC Hammer or Kenny G. (is there an "H" through "Z"?), I can assure you. In fact, North America is just about the only part of the world that DOESN'T like Queen, mostly because of redneck homophobia emerging after the release of the I Want To Break Free video. They didn't even get the satire.... |
Winter Land Man 26.07.2006 11:44 |
Is it best SELLING albums of all time? Or best albums of all time? There's a difference. And despite Queen's albums not all hitting number one, they stayed on the charts for a long time and got gold and platinum status. |
Boy Thomas Raker 26.07.2006 12:15 |
Best SELLING albums, Leah. That's why I said Brian's criteria of sales is kind of weak for refuting criticism. And while I agree the US for the most part didn't get Queen, Fireplace, it had nothing to do with IWTBF and the drag video. That's an incredible cop out by fans and people who believe that. In North America, Queen was a hard rock band in the company of Zeppelin, The Who, Aerosmith et al. Then they became something poppy and entirely without a guitarist for virually 4 years on American rock radio, so the had no songs that fit the format that they were best suited for. CLTCL (did and does get rock radio airpaly) AOBTD, Body Language, Calling all girls, Radio Ga Ga and IWTBF were the singles from '80 to ''84. None of them featured Brian in the way people were used to hearing it, so they lost their rock audience who didn't like the keyboard heavy stuff, and the people who bought the singles for CLTCL and AOBTD weren't enough to keep them popular. |
rocks. 26.07.2006 12:29 |
Erm, yah, i've heard from one of my best friends parents who were in london and saw the show and they said that the plot was sort of dumb...*sigh* They said the music was absolutly fantastic, but I've read about the plot and...well lets just say when WWRY comes to Toronto, i'll go for the music, and on opening night so I can possibly see Brian and Rog perform, teehee! |
Oberon 26.07.2006 13:27 |
Well,yes I think Brian can be a bit quick to reply in a snide matter as he does here, but I think his view of journalists has been well tainted by several personal attacks as well as artistic ones. As for WWRY, the story is quite "dumb" and there is a lot of what we in the UK call toilet humour (nob gags etc), which is what Ben Elton is generally all about. His stand up is very much that, even when it was political as well. And the main theme about the death and resurrection of the music has only a little weight along side the rest of the story, but... ... at the end of the day, I still enjoyed it each of the 3.5 times I saw it, because it DID make me laugh, and many of the performers did a good job with the vocals, and the band were very good. So it's down to taste, and while, obviously, many enjoy it because it's fun and escapist, it's not really any surprise that it was panned by the critics, because they generally do want something with more "substance" than WWRY. But, as with the critics of Queen the band, they miss the point of what the band were about, which was that the music was always taken seriously, and the rest was just for show. If you understand that about Queen, then you can just sit back and enjoy 2.5 hours of fun backed by great music. I think that would be Brian's view, along with the point that a lot of work went into developing the show, and he would at least expect a critic to acknowledge that. |
Boy Thomas Raker 26.07.2006 13:39 |
Excellent points, Oberon, I just believe that Brian thinks that WWRY is absolutely brilliant in all aspects and that anyone who criticizes it is off base. |
coops 26.07.2006 13:40 |
I have not seen the show but yes, Brian is quick to refute any criticism, and he does so in a somewhat holier than thou attitude. I have read several responses where he called critics stupid, idiots or silly girls for writing reviews he did not agree with. Disagreeing does not by definition make you an idiot, otherwise we would all be idiots. Must be difficult as an artist to put your heart and soul into a project that you must feel good about, only to have someone slag it off. But that's life in the music industry I guess. Not for the faint of heart or those with fragile egos. Personally I would tell those who don't like my work to get fucked and not buy it. Opinions are like assholes. Everybody has one. |
Oberon 26.07.2006 14:07 |
Both good points!! I think it's the lack of balance that these critics put in their reviews which probably winds Brian up more than anything. But, he should probably sit and think a bit more before replying - or Jen should act as devils advocate before she publishes his responses. Can you imagine if Brian had had an outlet like this site during Queen's hey day? Maybe then he wouldn't have such a "nice guy" image. But, I have to support him in some ways, like when he was at the Ivor Novello awards recently and the interviewer started off ok, then mentioned his hair, and he went off saying they'd screwed up their chance of a decent interview. I have to side with him, there, because if they've got nothing better to ask, what are they being paid for? I know that's slightly off topic, but it must get to you, and I think that's what comes out when Brian has a little rant about critics and journolists etc |
Mr Mercury 26.07.2006 16:19 |
Oberon wrote: But, I have to support him in some ways, like when he was at the Ivor Novello awards recently and the interviewer started off ok, then mentioned his hair, and he went off saying they'd screwed up their chance of a decent interview. I have to side with him, there, because if they've got nothing better to ask, what are they being paid for? I know that's slightly off topic, but it must get to you, and I think that's what comes out when Brian has a little rant about critics and journolists etcThat particular interview was actually part of a "pisstake" style show for Channel 4, the type of which only us Brits can make. If you actually look at the bit just above the "interviewer's" hand you'll see a bit square that says "shit hair" with an arrow pointing upwards, which is pointed towards Brian. Roger gets the same treatment only this time the square reads "fat ponce". I have that particular "hilarious" (yawn) clip in you want it - all 35 seconds of it. But back to the main topic, when I read that bit on his site I got this overwhelming feeling that Brian had turned into the very thing he hates - a critic. Still he has his reasons. |
Penetration_Guru 26.07.2006 17:26 |
I also think that Brian has complained often enough about being half-quoted, mis-quoted & taken out of context that to now "gloat" (for want of a better phrase) about doing the same (via the producers ofthe musical) is hypocrisy on a level I wouldn't like to admit to. And the point above that not everything popular is artistically valid is superb. |
Winter Land Man 26.07.2006 17:49 |
Boy Thomas Raker wrote: Best SELLING albums, Leah. That's why I said Brian's criteria of sales is kind of weak for refuting criticism. And while I agree the US for the most part didn't get Queen, Fireplace, it had nothing to do with IWTBF and the drag video. That's an incredible cop out by fans and people who believe that. In North America, Queen was a hard rock band in the company of Zeppelin, The Who, Aerosmith et al. Then they became something poppy and entirely without a guitarist for virually 4 years on American rock radio, so the had no songs that fit the format that they were best suited for. CLTCL (did and does get rock radio airpaly) AOBTD, Body Language, Calling all girls, Radio Ga Ga and IWTBF were the singles from '80 to ''84. None of them featured Brian in the way people were used to hearing it, so they lost their rock audience who didn't like the keyboard heavy stuff, and the people who bought the singles for CLTCL and AOBTD weren't enough to keep them popular.That is pretty true. I have Queen fan magazines (Queen Gazette) from the 1985 thru 1987 editions, and taken from US Billboard, they'd have Queen singles being reviewed by other bands, and they reviewed One Vision, Princes Of The Universe, and A Kind Of Magic (I think Princes was reviewed by Metallica), and anyway, they said they miss the older stuff, and one band actually mentioned Queen II and Sheer Heart Attack. They said Queen (with A Kind Of Magic) is nothing like the old Queen. Good comments on One Vision and good comments on Princes Of The Universe (except one Metallica member said they miss the old Queen, and said it changed when Freddie grew a mustache!), these were back when Queen singles were released, Billboard would question people about the latest singles, not just Queen, but they included a Queen track usually (only singles) |
marcio17@queenzone.com 26.07.2006 19:47 |
Is there any URL where I can see how many albums have sold all the greatest artist till´now? |
Sebastian 26.07.2006 21:47 |
Brian relying on sales - Utterly stupid. Brian comparing a WWRY reviewer with the bloke who turned down The Fab Four - Utterly stupid, and way out of context. A Renault 4 doesn't equal a Ferrari. US not liking Queen - Utter pish. Maybe Queen wasn't "as" successful as Zeppelin, but it doesn't mean they were "not". US being the only country not liking Queen - I think that comment is quite high on stepfordism. How many Queen fans do you find in Somalia or Gabon? US being not the only nation in the world - Very true. People should stop thinking about Billboard Hot 100 as the Gospel Truth. For that matter Macarena would kick Bo Rhap's arse, and Usher's Confessions would be better than Back To The Light, Barcelona, Queen II and Innuendo combined. |
PieterMC 27.07.2006 08:25 |
Penetration_Guru wrote: I also think that Brian has complained often enough about being half-quoted, mis-quoted & taken out of context that to now "gloat" (for want of a better phrase) about doing the same (via the producers ofthe musical) is hypocrisy on a level I wouldn't like to admit to. And the point above that not everything popular is artistically valid is superb.An excellent point.... |
Boy Thomas Raker 27.07.2006 09:51 |
Hi Sebastian, I just used the Billboard charts due to the fact that America is the biggest market in the world, and an album like Thriller has sold 28 million in the US compared to something like 14 million in every other territory. The US is hardly the be all and all musically, but if Brian's criteria for greatness is sales, then Queen's greatness pales in comparison to flavour of the week boy bands. |
marcio17@queenzone.com 27.07.2006 12:19 |
>Brian relying on sales - Utterly stupid. >Brian comparing a WWRY reviewer with the bloke >who turned down The Fab Four - Utterly stupid, >and way out of context. A Renault 4 doesn't >equal a Ferrari. >US not liking Queen - Utter pish. Maybe Queen >wasn't "as" successful as Zeppelin, but it >doesn't mean they were "not". >US being the only country not liking Queen - I >think that comment is quite high on stepfordism. >How many Queen fans do you find in Somalia or >Gabon? >US being not the only nation in the world - Very >true. People should stop thinking about >Billboard Hot 100 as the Gospel Truth. For that >matter Macarena would kick Bo Rhap's arse, and >Usher's Confessions would be better than Back To >The Light, Barcelona, Queen II and Innuendo >combined. Yep, you´re completely right |
Asterik 27.07.2006 16:14 |
Boy Thomas Raker wrote: Best SELLING albums, Leah. That's why I said Brian's criteria of sales is kind of weak for refuting criticism. And while I agree the US for the most part didn't get Queen, Fireplace, it had nothing to do with IWTBF and the drag video. That's an incredible cop out by fans and people who believe that. In North America, Queen was a hard rock band in the company of Zeppelin, The Who, Aerosmith et al. Then they became something poppy and entirely without a guitarist for virually 4 years on American rock radio, so the had no songs that fit the format that they were best suited for. CLTCL (did and does get rock radio airpaly) AOBTD, Body Language, Calling all girls, Radio Ga Ga and IWTBF were the singles from '80 to ''84. None of them featured Brian in the way people were used to hearing it, so they lost their rock audience who didn't like the keyboard heavy stuff, and the people who bought the singles for CLTCL and AOBTD weren't enough to keep them popular.So you're another one of the dinosaurs are you, that couldn't stomach change? |
Boy Thomas Raker 27.07.2006 17:57 |
Asterik, judging from your comment, you're about 6 years old and just learning to read and understand English, so I will explain to you that if someone uses the term "I", it means their personal beliefs. As I never once used the term "I" in the post that you slam me about, that means "I" have said nothing about my beliefs as to what Queen were. For our non-US board members, I've given a recounting of what is pretty much accepted in the US and to a lesser extent Canada (guitar rock Queen, good, keyboard pop Queen, bad) by stating something more of less known to all, that as they changed styles they fell off the map. "I" believe your ignorant comment made while knowing nothing about me makes you a Stepford and an idiot. |
Donna13 30.07.2006 19:55 |
I plan to see WWRY when it tours in the USA. I would love to see it also in London. |
rocks. 30.07.2006 21:56 |
Old Queen and "New" (as in 1982 on) Queen are certainly very different. That doesnt mean that I dont enjoy both equally. And that doesnt make me a stepford fan. *sigh* Now that thats out of the way. Boy Thomas Raker, I agree to an extent about people using the I Want To Break Free Video as a cop out. If Dragon Attack, Put Out The Fire, and Tear It Up, were released as singles I seriously do believe that saled would have been better, but there still is the fact that the US market doesnt like it when an artist changes. Look at Garth Brookes. His rock album sold REALLY shitty numbers (i'll admit it was a bad phase) and when he went back to country they got better but not AS high as they were before. If Queen had done a 70s style album and released 70s style singles in the 80s they for sure would have done better |
Donna13 31.07.2006 19:47 |
I think that Ben Elton's writing style is considered "goofy" so that shouldn't be too much a surprise. I wouldn't worry about it being far-fetched. All musicals are. So are most operas. I don't think the success of album sales (of anyone) can really be compared to the success of a musical theatre production. If people want to see WWRY a second time, they have to buy the ticket again. This is what makes the production a "hit". |
Boy Thomas Raker 31.07.2006 22:41 |
Thanks for the replies, What must he think and Donna 13. For WMHT, I wasn't calling Asterik a Stepford or anyone else a Stepford for enjoying post-'82 Queen, I called him a Stepford because he implied I was a dinosaur without knowing a thing about me or my likes. You are correct, the US market doesnt like it when an artist changes, but people always like to use the video for IWTBF as THE reason Queen lost suport in North America. I'm pretty sure that the Rolling Stones and U2 didn't lose a whole lot of support when they did drag for videos. And Donna13, Brian is using sales as a rebuttal to all criticism. Album sales CAN be compared to the success of a musical theatre production or anything that sells a lot. Not to equate WWRY or Queen to a couple of hucksters, but Ron Popeil and Tony Little have made a career of selling millions of units of products of dubious quality. Are they supposed to be above criticism because they've sold a lot of units? If I can a Tony Little abdomenizer and it falls apart, I would hope Tony's response wouldn't be "I've sold millions of these, you're wrong", which seems to be Brian's response to any criticism, even the fair spirited ones. |
willem-jan 8923 01.08.2006 02:51 |
As for record sales (worldwide): link So Queen has listed greatest hits and greatest hits II and that's it. So, from that point of view queen isn't that much of a supergroup. |
Donna13 01.08.2006 11:24 |
I think that Brian truly is proud of it. He doesn't need to bring up sales numbers to defend it, however, if the sales go downhill, then the whole production gets canceled. That is why it is very different from album sales. |
Boy Thomas Raker 01.08.2006 11:52 |
With all due respect Donna, that's ridiculous. Sales are sales. They indicate nothing but what is popular at a point in time, they aren't always a sign of top quality, though they can be. I don't care how proud Brian is of the musical, putting bums in the seats doesn't absolve it of legitimate criticism. If there are flaws in the plot, and a story that appears to virtually every critic to be constructed to get to the songs, then does that mean that Brian can point to attendance figures and say, "sorry, our plot is good because we sold out last night?" Are movies the same as musical productions, in that they're different than albums? If the movie Snakes on a Plane opens up to a $100 million weekend, does that mean that despite all types of buzz on how stupid it is, that it's actually brilliant because lots of people watched it? |
Donna13 01.08.2006 12:20 |
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The Real Wizard 09.08.2006 04:52 |
Asterik wrote:No way... he's 100% correct. I think a large number of Queen fans lost interest in the band when The Game came out. The Jazz album was mediocre, and in 1980, Queen made the jump from rock band to pop band. A good chunk of their listening audience at the time were singles buyers. I bet half of the sales of AOBTD were people who hadn't heard a Queen song before. Do the words "top crossover hit" ring a bell?Boy Thomas Raker wrote: Best SELLING albums, Leah. That's why I said Brian's criteria of sales is kind of weak for refuting criticism. And while I agree the US for the most part didn't get Queen, Fireplace, it had nothing to do with IWTBF and the drag video. That's an incredible cop out by fans and people who believe that. In North America, Queen was a hard rock band in the company of Zeppelin, The Who, Aerosmith et al. Then they became something poppy and entirely without a guitarist for virually 4 years on American rock radio, so the had no songs that fit the format that they were best suited for. CLTCL (did and does get rock radio airpaly) AOBTD, Body Language, Calling all girls, Radio Ga Ga and IWTBF were the singles from '80 to ''84. None of them featured Brian in the way people were used to hearing it, so they lost their rock audience who didn't like the keyboard heavy stuff, and the people who bought the singles for CLTCL and AOBTD weren't enough to keep them popular.So you're another one of the dinosaurs are you, that couldn't stomach change? |