QueenZone discussion #1347585

The Real Wizard wrote: Obviously nobody can possibly condone the killings, but is the motivation at least understandable on some level? .

Penetration_Guru wrote: 1000's of posts of you lot (and others) hurling mega-buckets of nit-picking vacuity at each other, and 9 posts about this.

The Real Wizard wrote: ^ perspective sucks, doesn't it? Obviously nobody can possibly condone the killings, but is the motivation at least understandable on some level? People are pissed off with western armies meddling in the affairs of other countries, and innocent people will continue to die for political agendas that have nothing to do with "liberating the people" or whatever the latest mantra is.

pittrek wrote: Some Arabs have murdered a soldier in London in front of a "live audience"

catqueen wrote:

pittrek wrote: Some Arabs have murdered a soldier in London in front of a "live audience"

Don't think he was an Arab though.

pittrek wrote:

catqueen wrote:

pittrek wrote: Some Arabs have murdered a soldier in London in front of a "live audience"

Don't think he was an Arab though.

No, he wasn't - our media firstly claimed he was, but a few hours later the video revealed his true identity

pittrek wrote:

catqueen wrote:

pittrek wrote: Some Arabs have murdered a soldier in London in front of a "live audience"

Don't think he was an Arab though.

No, he wasn't - our media firstly claimed he was, but a few hours later the video revealed his true identity

Penetration_Guru wrote: 1000's of posts of you lot (and others) hurling mega-buckets of nit-picking vacuity at each other, and 9 posts about this.

Holly2003 wrote: So what would you have "The West" do now in Iraq YV: send in the troops? This is internecine sectarian warfare and tribalism in Iraq: there's a chance now for them to progress but they're not taking it. As for Sweden, christ, where do I even start? This is a country that has taken in 1000s of political and economic immigrants from basket case countries, given those immigrants shelter and funds, and provides a chance for a new start. What's the thanks for that? Rioting. Nice. I'm sure lots of Swedes are wondering why they bothered: if the rioters want to return to their countries of origin I'm sure few Swedes will be trying to persuade them otherwise,. But don';t expect much demand for plane tickets out of Sweden. As you say, it's a very generous nation and the immigrants know where their bread is buttered.

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Holly: Something to bear in mind is that, despite nutbags like this murderer, most people, regardless of race, ethnicity or country of origin, don't resort to violence lightly. In fact, the vast majority of people will never do so. But, if you're a non-white immigrant in Europe these days, you face a tremendous amount of hate. Imagine you're a moderate Muslim who escaped from a fundamentalist regime and made your way to Britain. You get there, you do your best to learn English, and after six months, you can manage a basic conversation. What do you hear people say? "Those filthy towel-heads are stealing our jobs."; "there is no moderate Islam"; "Muslims hate the west"; most people don't talk to you (mostly not out of malicious intent), and of those that do, a fair number just hurl abuse at you. You try to get a job. However, it's crisis, jobs are scarce, and you don't speak the language that well yet. Plus, you look different from most Brits. Another six months later, and you're still unemployed. "See?", people say, "they only come here to get free money." You feel awkward in summer, when you see women wearing much more revealing outfits than you are used to. You don't say anything, because you don't want to be impolite, but when a much more radical immigrant makes headlines by insulting women for their clothing, suddenly everyone looks at you. "You're a muslim; why are you so disrespectful of women? Go back to the desert, you animal." Immigrants get ever more frustrated and ever more desperate. Those that attempt to integrate are on their own - they can expect very little help from the government, and practically no sympathy from the population. They get stuck in the cheapest, most unpopular neighbourhoods, which consequently turn into immigrant enclaves. See? Populists say, and they are widely believed, they don't want to integrate, they just bunch together. Meanwhile, 'civilized westerners' get applauded by roughly a fifth of the European population for saying things about immigrants that would get you sent to court if you said them about, for instance, Jews. Yes, we have problems with a small portion of the immigrant population. But so long as we keep accepting that all immigrants get abused for the abject behaviour of a tiny portion of them, we are not going to solve those problems. In fact, we are forcing more and more immigrants into the hands of fundamentalists by our current approach. We need immigrants, for the simple reason that our population is ageing and an ever smaller number of people of working age has to provide for an ever larger number of retired people. Even disregarding the fact that it's just basic human decency, economic motives make that we should take responsibility collectively for integrating immigrants into our society. Not a hundred years ago, people in America claimed that Italians and Eastern Europeans could never become Americans, because they were just "too different" and "inherently criminal". A hundred and fifty years ago people said the same thing about the Irish. So long as no one looked out for them, they remained the lowest class in the population, and thus also the group with the highest crime rate. But when the people and the government set up programs to help them, integration picked up, and America has many groups of well-integrated immigrants now. Europe can do the same thing, but we won't so long as the established political parties adopt the views and rhetoric of nativist, far-right groups as a vote-getter in times of crisis.

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Holly: Something to bear in mind is that, despite nutbags like this murderer, most people, regardless of race, ethnicity or country of origin, don't resort to violence lightly. In fact, the vast majority of people will never do so. But, if you're a non-white immigrant in Europe these days, you face a tremendous amount of hate. Imagine you're a moderate Muslim who escaped from a fundamentalist regime and made your way to Britain. You get there, you do your best to learn English, and after six months, you can manage a basic conversation. What do you hear people say? "Those filthy towel-heads are stealing our jobs."; "there is no moderate Islam"; "Muslims hate the west"; most people don't talk to you (mostly not out of malicious intent), and of those that do, a fair number just hurl abuse at you. You try to get a job. However, it's crisis, jobs are scarce, and you don't speak the language that well yet. Plus, you look different from most Brits. Another six months later, and you're still unemployed. "See?", people say, "they only come here to get free money." You feel awkward in summer, when you see women wearing much more revealing outfits than you are used to. You don't say anything, because you don't want to be impolite, but when a much more radical immigrant makes headlines by insulting women for their clothing, suddenly everyone looks at you. "You're a muslim; why are you so disrespectful of women? Go back to the desert, you animal." Immigrants get ever more frustrated and ever more desperate. Those that attempt to integrate are on their own - they can expect very little help from the government, and practically no sympathy from the population. They get stuck in the cheapest, most unpopular neighbourhoods, which consequently turn into immigrant enclaves. See? Populists say, and they are widely believed, they don't want to integrate, they just bunch together. Meanwhile, 'civilized westerners' get applauded by roughly a fifth of the European population for saying things about immigrants that would get you sent to court if you said them about, for instance, Jews. Yes, we have problems with a small portion of the immigrant population. But so long as we keep accepting that all immigrants get abused for the abject behaviour of a tiny portion of them, we are not going to solve those problems. In fact, we are forcing more and more immigrants into the hands of fundamentalists by our current approach. We need immigrants, for the simple reason that our population is ageing and an ever smaller number of people of working age has to provide for an ever larger number of retired people. Even disregarding the fact that it's just basic human decency, economic motives make that we should take responsibility collectively for integrating immigrants into our society. Not a hundred years ago, people in America claimed that Italians and Eastern Europeans could never become Americans, because they were just "too different" and "inherently criminal". A hundred and fifty years ago people said the same thing about the Irish. So long as no one looked out for them, they remained the lowest class in the population, and thus also the group with the highest crime rate. But when the people and the government set up programs to help them, integration picked up, and America has many groups of well-integrated immigrants now. Europe can do the same thing, but we won't so long as the established political parties adopt the views and rhetoric of nativist, far-right groups as a vote-getter in times of crisis.

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Holly: Something to bear in mind is that, despite nutbags like this murderer, most people, regardless of race, ethnicity or country of origin, don't resort to violence lightly. In fact, the vast majority of people will never do so. But, if you're a non-white immigrant in Europe these days, you face a tremendous amount of hate. Imagine you're a moderate Muslim who escaped from a fundamentalist regime and made your way to Britain. You get there, you do your best to learn English, and after six months, you can manage a basic conversation. What do you hear people say? "Those filthy towel-heads are stealing our jobs."; "there is no moderate Islam"; "Muslims hate the west"; most people don't talk to you (mostly not out of malicious intent), and of those that do, a fair number just hurl abuse at you. You try to get a job. However, it's crisis, jobs are scarce, and you don't speak the language that well yet. Plus, you look different from most Brits. Another six months later, and you're still unemployed. "See?", people say, "they only come here to get free money." You feel awkward in summer, when you see women wearing much more revealing outfits than you are used to. You don't say anything, because you don't want to be impolite, but when a much more radical immigrant makes headlines by insulting women for their clothing, suddenly everyone looks at you. "You're a muslim; why are you so disrespectful of women? Go back to the desert, you animal." Immigrants get ever more frustrated and ever more desperate. Those that attempt to integrate are on their own - they can expect very little help from the government, and practically no sympathy from the population. They get stuck in the cheapest, most unpopular neighbourhoods, which consequently turn into immigrant enclaves. See? Populists say, and they are widely believed, they don't want to integrate, they just bunch together. Meanwhile, 'civilized westerners' get applauded by roughly a fifth of the European population for saying things about immigrants that would get you sent to court if you said them about, for instance, Jews. Yes, we have problems with a small portion of the immigrant population. But so long as we keep accepting that all immigrants get abused for the abject behaviour of a tiny portion of them, we are not going to solve those problems. In fact, we are forcing more and more immigrants into the hands of fundamentalists by our current approach. We need immigrants, for the simple reason that our population is ageing and an ever smaller number of people of working age has to provide for an ever larger number of retired people. Even disregarding the fact that it's just basic human decency, economic motives make that we should take responsibility collectively for integrating immigrants into our society. Not a hundred years ago, people in America claimed that Italians and Eastern Europeans could never become Americans, because they were just "too different" and "inherently criminal". A hundred and fifty years ago people said the same thing about the Irish. So long as no one looked out for them, they remained the lowest class in the population, and thus also the group with the highest crime rate. But when the people and the government set up programs to help them, integration picked up, and America has many groups of well-integrated immigrants now. Europe can do the same thing, but we won't so long as the established political parties adopt the views and rhetoric of nativist, far-right groups as a vote-getter in times of crisis.