dave76 24.04.2013 11:00 |
Since we will never gonna get a descent Queen anthology boxset but instead all those pointless re-re-re-releases over and over again i started looking for nice boxsets by other bands who know how to create a nice set. The Beatles did a great job back in 1995 with 3 volumes full of rarities. Bon Jovi had a nice boxset in 2004 with demo's and b-sides. I remember Kiss did a set. So, are there more great sort of anthology rarities boxsets out there that are worth looking for? |
brENsKi 24.04.2013 11:08 |
you had me in almost agreement to you there...til you mentioned Kiss...the only way a kiss boxset would be great is if it was full of other bands' cds beatles, anthology - excellent - and don't forget the dvds ac/dc - nice floyd - immersion sets were nice - for dsotm, wywh and the wall even some other bands like purple, rainbow, lizzy and dio did exceptionally nice deluxe edition lps |
rocknrolllover 24.04.2013 11:29 |
dave76 wrote: Since we will never gonna get a descent Queen anthology boxset but instead all those pointless re-re-re-releases over and over again i started looking for nice boxsets by other bands who know how to create a nice set. The Beatles did a great job back in 1995 with 3 volumes full of rarities. Bon Jovi had a nice boxset in 2004 with demo's and b-sides. I remember Kiss did a set. So, are there more great sort of anthology rarities boxsets out there that are worth looking for? these re-re-re-releases will be untill we buy it and we buy it although we say that we're bying it anymore, aren't we? |
dave76 24.04.2013 11:36 |
That was not what i was asking. Only other bands who released great boxsets. Which are worth looking for and worth listening. |
pittrek 24.04.2013 12:13 |
Nirvana - Nevermind : link Sex Pistols - Never Mind The Bollocks : link These are two absolutely BRILLIANT box sets. Both are combinations of the album, alternate mixes, demos, live concerts, a DVD, and very interesting books full of various pictures. Brilliant stuff. Black Sabbath : Black Box link - a wonderful box set consisting of ALL Ozzy albums, in re-created sleeves, and a wonderful, WONDERFUL book |
pittrek 24.04.2013 12:20 |
I forgot to add Metallica : Death Magnetic coffin - link |
mooghead 24.04.2013 12:53 |
Not really a question for Serious Discussion but if you want to buy a truly outstanding box set I suggest the TV series 'Breaking Bad' which has restored my faith* in the televisual experience. * Yes, I have faith!! |
dave76 24.04.2013 12:55 |
Thanks pittrek for your info. Those things are nice to read. I remember the Nevermind boxset when it came out. Loads of great stuff indeed. These things are worth listening and worth looking for. |
dave76 24.04.2013 13:00 |
I have heard of this series but i haven't checked it out. But your info is enough for me to go and check this. It's nice to hear other people opinions on boxsets and which are great. |
GratefulFan 24.04.2013 13:05 |
mooghead wrote: Not really a question for Serious Discussion but if you want to buy a truly outstanding box set I suggest the TV series 'Breaking Bad' which has restored my faith* in the televisual experience. * Yes, I have faith!!I had a wildly addictive experience with Breaking Bad over the 2 week Christamas holiday. I have lost almost total track of what is good on TV and that came as a recommendation from my cousin. I marathoned the first four seasons from Netflix and bought the first half of the final one on iTunes and watched all of it too. Can't wait to see how it winds up this summer. Outstanding writing and worth every minute of time I spent on it. Can't second your recommendation strongly enough. |
dave76 24.04.2013 13:11 |
I am downloading season 1 right now and after a lot of positive reviews i am curious. Any music boxsets that interests people? |
mooghead 24.04.2013 13:20 |
GratefulFan wrote:Something we agree on. I never watch TV shows but this was in a different league. The last episode of series 4.... I wish could experience the way I felt as I watched that again.mooghead wrote: Not really a question for Serious Discussion but if you want to buy a truly outstanding box set I suggest the TV series 'Breaking Bad' which has restored my faith* in the televisual experience. * Yes, I have faith!!I had a wildly addictive experience with Breaking Bad over the 2 week Christamas holiday. I have lost almost total track of what is good on TV and that came as a recommendation from my cousin. I marathoned the first four seasons from Netflix and bought the first half of the final one on iTunes and watched all of it too. Can't wait to see how it winds up this summer. Outstanding writing and worth every minute of time I spent on it. Can't second your recommendation strongly enough. I know how that may sound but it was truly superb.... |
GratefulFan 24.04.2013 13:31 |
mooghead wrote: Something we agree on. I never watch TV shows but this was in a different league. The last episode of series 4.... I wish could experience the way I felt as I watched that again. I know how that may sound but it was truly superb....I know exactly, exactly what you mean. There were elements of it that reminded me of watching the planes hit the WTC on 9/11. Not clearly in scope or impact or importance, but the idea that it was so shockingly effective that even a hundred viewings of the key moments would not significantly attenuate that initial psychological punch. |
GratefulFan 24.04.2013 13:36 |
And here's another thought. I wonder if they could have even done that after recent events in the United States had that been a plot turn deferred to this year. I would honestly think perhaps not. And what a loss that might have been to iconic moments in television history. |
pittrek 24.04.2013 13:41 |
If you want to include TV shows, the Star Trek TNG BluRays are excellent too |
mooghead 24.04.2013 13:48 |
Apart from Breaking Bad the only ever TV shows I have ever seen every episode of are Star Trek TNG and Seinfeld, maybe Quantum Leap too. Forget Heroes, 24, Lost, Friends, Dexter, never held my attention... garbage. |
Kevinrm15 24.04.2013 14:54 |
Here are my recommendation for good box sets: Bruce Springsteen - Tracks Bruce Springsteen - The Promise: The Darkness on the Edge of Town Story Aerosmith - Pandora's Box Tom Petty - Playback Tom Petty - Runnin' Down a Dream (4 Disc Edition) Tom Petty - The Live Anthology The Who - 30 Years of Maximum R&B Billy Joel - My Lives Billy Joel - The Stranger: 30th Anniversary (Deluxe Edition) Led Zeppelin DVD Led Zeppelin - How the West Was Won Just What I Needed: The Cars Anthology The Police - Message in a Box Ladies & Gentlemen: The Rolling Stones (3 DVD Set) The Rolling Stones - Exile on Main Street (Deluxe Edition) The Rolling Stones - Some Girls (Deluxe Edition) Have fun! |
MackMantilla 24.04.2013 16:16 |
And this is my recommendation: link |
dave76 24.04.2013 16:43 |
Wow, that looks cool. I wished Roger and Brian would do something like this.... And all those other boxsets mentioned by kevin are boxsets made the way it must be done. good recommendations people. |
ok.computer 24.04.2013 21:55 |
Very few have beaten this from The Who: link |
Pim Derks 24.04.2013 23:03 |
Nothing beats the Beach Boys' Smile Sessions. Awesome packaging, great price, awesome music with lots of really 'new' music. I think boxes like the Pink Floyd Immersion ones are great, but I'm sure that the die-hard Pink Floyd fan barely found a single note of music he didn't yet have. |
Vali 25.04.2013 04:40 |
in case you like the great Neil Young, this is "the boxset": CD version http://www.amazon.com/Neil-Young-Archives-Vol-1963-1972/dp/B001O12TO4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366882571&sr=8-1&keywords=neil+young+archives Blu-ray (also available on DVD): http://www.amazon.com/Neil-Young-Archives-Vol-1963-1972/dp/B001B8PV4U/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1366882571&sr=8-5&keywords=neil+young+archives |
dudeofqueen 25.04.2013 06:48 |
Yep - The Who's "30 years" set contained three discs of absolute joy. There was a heavy concentration on previously released material, but the unreleased items were - AT THE TIME - a complete joy to have. |
DLCVinnuendo 25.04.2013 08:09 |
a box of the first queen album would be a excellent release |
rocknrolllover 25.04.2013 08:40 |
DLCVinnuendo wrote: a box of the first queen album would be a excellent release you're joking, aren't you? |
DLCVinnuendo 25.04.2013 10:17 |
is good, of course, many rarities of the first album, this year, this album will make 40 years, and nothing to do to celebrate |
dave76 25.04.2013 10:34 |
All these great boxsets shows that the people over at queen land have a lot to learn. |
thomasquinn 32989 25.04.2013 13:15 |
Vali wrote: in case you like the great Neil Young, this is "the boxset": CD version http://www.amazon.com/Neil-Young-Archives-Vol-1963-1972/dp/B001O12TO4/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366882571&sr=8-1&keywords=neil+young+archives Blu-ray (also available on DVD): http://www.amazon.com/Neil-Young-Archives-Vol-1963-1972/dp/B001B8PV4U/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1366882571&sr=8-5&keywords=neil+young+archivesAgreed. If Queen did something like that, I'd definitely be willing to pay good money for it. |
dave76 25.04.2013 13:30 |
Yes. Me too. In a heartbeat. |
Ron 25.04.2013 13:38 |
Honestly, I think the Freddie box from 2000 was a great release. A lot of unreleased stuff, all the extended mixes, the albums, instrumental, great packaging. Loved it. I can hardly think of any box sets that were released in the past few years which look so good and have so much new stuff. The latest Pink Floyd box sets?? Meh, it only contained some live stuff, the odd demo or two and a lot of useless gimmics like scarfs and marbles. U2's Achtung Baby was good but rather pricey. It at least also featured most if not all b-sides, mixes and a full disc with album demos. |
Holly2003 25.04.2013 13:48 |
I thought AC/DC's Bonfire was decent enough. Reasonably priced for 5 CDs, one of which was a rarities CD and two live concerts. AC/DC fans weren't that happy because most of the stuff was already available but it filled a gap between hardcore and casual fans. I also have an Ozzy boxset (Prince of Darkness) which is reasonable. There are some good DVD box sets: Rush's R30 is great and Zep's 2003 boxset is loin-stirringly good :) |
Michael 25.04.2013 16:07 |
The Genesis box sets from a few years ago. Awesome! How all such box sets should be done. |
dave76 25.04.2013 17:19 |
You're right. Those Genesis boxsets were awesome. And 2007 was the year that every Genesis fan was treated well. A reunion tour, a marvelous book. A triple dvd set and of course these 3 boxes. |
ksimpson1960 25.04.2013 18:56 |
Don't forget "The Life and Crimes of Alice Cooper," 4cd box set, ( it has early drafts of some songs with completely different lyrics.) and "Old School" 4cd box set, which highlights the original band ( and comes in a yearbook) "'Remember the Coop!"' |
dave76 26.04.2013 09:08 |
The "songs of freedom" boxset by Bob Marley is also a great anthology overview with a lot of rare tracks. |
Pim Derks 26.04.2013 10:40 |
The Genesis boxes are great, but don't include any new material at all - except for the interviews and the "Genesis Plays Jackson" tapes on the 1970-1975 box. They did include 5.1 mixes of every album though and some excellent video-bonusmaterials. However, I'm sure that die-hard Genesis-collectors felt the same way we do about the 2011/2012 remasters. |
ITSM 29.04.2013 04:04 |
People are using (paying for) Spotify more and more, if they want to make real money off the rarities, they should release them soon (on CD and LP), I think. Even the extra songs from the 40th anniversary albums are on Spotify. |
FriedChicken 29.04.2013 05:25 |
The Beach Boys - The SMiLE Sessions has to be one of the best boxsets out there. Like Pim said, the packaging is great and there is so much information in the book as well. Tracking dates, what was recorded when, which musicians played which instrument. Plus lots of outtakes and almost 2 cds dedicated to the songs Heroes and Villains and Good Vibrations. Imagine a boxset of A Night at the Opera with a cd dedicated to Bohemian Rhapsody. Early demos, a couple of alternate takes (including mistakes, drop outs etc!) all in chronological order. It's almost like an auditive song documentary |
jabbo5150 01.05.2013 01:05 |
Lots of good choices listed above. I'd add Sex, America, Cheap Trick to the list. Great combination of greatest hits and rare tracks |
SimonFerocious 01.05.2013 02:55 |
Wow, it just goes to show there's not a lot happening in Queenworld at the moment when there's a discussion of other band's material on a Queen website. Things have been very quiet of late. If Queen brought out "State Of Shock" with Michael Jackson with a killer CGI video, they'd be Christmas number one. All the Queen and Michael Jackson fans would buy it. |
ronwoodh 01.05.2013 03:44 |
I have got everything Queen has released commercially on tape LP and CD. I have concert DVD's, and 10 concerts on tape. Interviews, and documentaries from the internet. There is absolutely no reason for me to buy a Queen box set containing everything I already have. There is someone on you tube called David R who has a boatload of Queen stuff that isn't commercially available; Demo's, outtakes, alternative versions of songs, tracks that didn't make it onto albums etc If he has all this on you tube; then surely Queen management can muster a box set of this material. David R Fuller must have worked in the studio or within the Queen empire to have all this, so if Queen don't possess this archive material then via you tube they can talk to a man that does. |
Nitroboy 01.05.2013 09:57 |
You do realize they've just shut down his channel? Besides, he didn't own any of the material he uploaded, and most (if not all) was something QP already has access to. |
rlabbe 02.05.2013 13:29 |
Actually, there was a box-set out on vinyl in the mid-1980's called "The Complete Works", with some B-sides I believe. Never saw it though. Anyone? |
AlexRocks 02.05.2013 14:56 |
I have that! You can find out about it on the internets! |
The Fairy King 02.05.2013 17:36 |
Decent boxsets: U2 - Achtung Baby Box and the Joshua Tree Radiohead re-releases with bonus cd and dvd Placebo - The Hut Recordings (all the albums + b-sides, dvd, live album and cover album) |
Dane 07.05.2013 06:16 |
Fleetwood Mac - Rumours box-set released this year! http://www.amazon.com/POP-CD-Fleetwood-Mac-Rumours/dp/B00BTWPU0I/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1367925270&sr=8-2&keywords=rumours+fleetwood+box |
Pim Derks 07.05.2013 11:08 |
The Rumours box did have 2 cd's filled with outtakes and stuff (1 of which was previously available on the 2004 remaster). Packagingwise I think it was quite lame, just a cardboard box with the box/booklets in them. Would've been great if they had thrown in some other stuff (replica poster, tourbook, ...). Plus, just including the 33RPM disc, while a 2x45 RPM 180 grams was released in 2012 is a bit lame. Still, better than every boxset Queen Productions has released so far (excluding the FM box ofcourse!). |
AlexRocks 07.05.2013 11:31 |
Hey "The Crown Jewels" is great as well as "The Queen Collection" Limited Edtiion Box set from 1992 on Hollywood Records in North America, "Greatest Hits I & II" Limited Edition Box Set released in 1992, and "The Complete Works"! |
The Real Wizard 07.05.2013 12:30 |
ronwoodh wrote: David R Fuller must have worked in the studio or within the Queen empire to have all this, so if Queen don't possess this archive material then via you tube they can talk to a man that does.Fuller stole his rarest material from a group of collectors whose trust he broke. And for some reason a very large number of people here are completely immune to understanding the process of how such things happened - despite the fact that the complete story has being written here by those very people. At the very best, Fuller compiled everything into one convenient place. But he deserves no credit as he did no work to accumulate any of this. It is other people who spent years searching for and gathering this material, often at quite a high price at auctions. We're sometimes talking thousands of pounds for a single song - legally the property of the person who bought them in these cases, as they were pieces that the band discarded back in the day. People talk about Fuller like he's the first person ever to spread unreleased music. But since he tried to sell some of his material, he's in big trouble at the moment. Good - he deserves whatever is coming to him. And unfortunately there is no shortage of people who, despite never lifted a finger to try and obtain a rare uncirculated song, become self-appointed experts and seem to know more about the process than people who have done it for decades. Truly mind-baffling. Their posts are likely to follow mine, any time now... There are tonnes of more rarities that Fuller did not have access to, and they are never going to go public until the fools at Queenzone begin to cut back on the sense of entitlement and replace it with some gratitude for those people who are actually responsible for this great unreleased music's existence in the first place. |
The Real Wizard 07.05.2013 12:31 |
Back to the subject at hand... The latest Smashing Pumpkins re-releases are spectacular as well ! |
Holly2003 07.05.2013 13:11 |
The Real Wizard wrote:ronwoodh wrote: David R Fuller must have worked in the studio or within the Queen empire to have all this, so if Queen don't possess this archive material then via you tube they can talk to a man that does.Fuller stole his rarest material from a group of collectors whose trust he broke. And for some reason a very large number of people here are completely immune to understanding the process of how such things happened - despite the fact that the complete story has being written here by those very people. At the very best, Fuller compiled everything into one convenient place. But he deserves no credit as he did no work to accumulate any of this. It is other people who spent years searching for and gathering this material, often at quite a high price at auctions. We're sometimes talking thousands of pounds for a single song - legally the property of the person who bought them in these cases, as they were pieces that the band discarded back in the day. People talk about Fuller like he's the first person ever to spread unreleased music. But since he tried to sell some of his material, he's in big trouble at the moment. Good - he deserves whatever is coming to him. And unfortunately there is no shortage of people who, despite never lifted a finger to try and obtain a rare uncirculated song, become self-appointed experts and seem to know more about the process than people who have done it for decades. Truly mind-baffling. Their posts are likely to follow mine, any time now... There are tonnes of more rarities that Fuller did not have access to, and they are never going to go public until the fools at Queenzone begin to cut back on the sense of entitlement and replace it with some gratitude for those people who are actually responsible for this great unreleased music's existence in the first place. Self serving crap. Your mask has slipped. On one thread you're arguing that collectors never ask for thanks and here you're demanding gratitude or nothing else will be shared! Plus, you made some idiotic point about Fuller disrupting shares and now you're admitting what I acused you of and you previously denied -- the reason the sharing forum is quieter is because collectors are punishing Queenzoners for not sucking up to you as much as you would like! You're hilariously self centred and amusingly transparent. |
The Real Wizard 07.05.2013 13:18 |
The entire January 1969 Let It Be sessions exist to the public, but no Beatles fans were short-sighted enough to assume that the collectors who found and spread the tapes must have been the in-house engineer and janitor. They know better than to make conclusions about things they don't know about. It's not "sucking up" that collectors seek. Some acknowledgement of the basic process would be nice instead of giving the credit to someone who did nothing to actually obtain the material. Learn to say thanks for things you had no part in acquiring. All you had to do was point and click. Why is this so hard to understand? |
Holly2003 07.05.2013 13:28 |
"There are tonnes of more rarities that Fuller did not have access to, and they are never going to go public until the fools at Queenzone begin to cut back on the sense of entitlement and replace it with some gratitude for those people who are actually responsible for this great unreleased music's existence in the first place." Sad as fuck. |
The Real Wizard 07.05.2013 13:30 |
Indeed it is. But what you see as sad and what collectors see as sad are too completely different things. Despite our differences - everyone loses in the end. That much we surely must agree on. |
Gregsynth 07.05.2013 13:30 |
I had the displeasure of being harassed by fans of Dave R. Fuller or something via Youtube private messages. They were accusing me of being behind his channel being terminated and when I explained everything that happened (starting with "The Reaction" thing), they still wouldn't believe me. They claimed I had some sort of vendetta against him because he had more subscribers/views than me. I had to laugh at the whole thing. |
The Real Wizard 07.05.2013 13:32 |
Hilarious. At least he knows the real reason now... |
inu-liger 07.05.2013 21:32 |
Gregsynth wrote: They claimed I had some sort of vendetta against him because he had more subscribers/views than me. I had to laugh at the whole thing.Gregsynth and a vendetta.....somehow, I reaaaaaaallly cannot see you having one like that, at least not in this context! |
Gregsynth 07.05.2013 22:02 |
Yeah, it doesn't make sense. The private messages had lots of curse words (not all of them were spelled right) and the user who wrote one PM was trying to make me look worse than Dave. Don't pick on me! |
inu-liger 07.05.2013 22:19 |
Gregsynth showed me one of the messages (which I've been permitted to repost here), and although it seems to come from a YouTube channel that may have been deleted cos it certainly doesn't work when trying to enter his username in the YT link, it's really stupid all the same:
DRFQueen1980s wrote to Gregsynth: "you made dave leave youtube because you were jealous of his sucess. Fuk you. You made your views based on Queen as well so you are a hypocrite for getting rid of him. dave will always be the best source for Queen material."Who would have known Dave R Fuller had his own little Justin Bieber-like fan clique?? |
tero! 48531 07.05.2013 23:11 |
The Real Wizard wrote: Fuller stole his rarest material from a group of collectors whose trust he broke. And for some reason a very large number of people here are completely immune to understanding the process of how such things happened - despite the fact that the complete story has being written here by those very people.Look... I really do understand that he didn't turn out to be the kind of contact you expected. You wanted to benefit from him, and instead he benefited from you. It's tough, but isn't it about time you got over it? What exactly has the last year(?) of bitching and moaning gotten you? Has it increased your trading contacts? Do you get a new concert for every public beating of David? It's really hard to understand what exactly you are gaining (or hoping to gain) from continuing this. |
Holly2003 08.05.2013 08:15 |
The Real Wizard wrote: The entire January 1969 Let It Be sessions exist to the public, but no Beatles fans were short-sighted enough to assume that the collectors who found and spread the tapes must have been the in-house engineer and janitor. They know better than to make conclusions about things they don't know about. It's not "sucking up" that collectors seek. Some acknowledgement of the basic process would be nice instead of giving the credit to someone who did nothing to actually obtain the material. Learn to say thanks for things you had no part in acquiring. All you had to do was point and click. Why is this so hard to understand? Many people do says thanks, so that argument is the usual smokescreen for ego trips and hubris. You, personally never tire of asking for compliments, gratitude etc, while claiming the complete opposite. (And on that point, why should anyone show endless gratitude to you for sharing something that's worthless to you? You have stated, over and over, that these things leak out only when the trading community has completely used them to their maximum benefit and when their trading value is zero. If your ego demands that we see you as selfless, share something that's really valuable to you.) But at the end of the day, share or don't share, it makes little odds to me, just stop pretending you are only doing this for everyone's benefit because the first and last people collectors look after is themselves. |
thomasquinn 32989 08.05.2013 08:42 |
Is there no low to which you will not sink, Holly? Are you going to hijack this topic too, just to spew your bile at Bob? |
GratefulFan 08.05.2013 08:48 |
Except that it was the "Real Wizard" who pulled the topic in this direction, not Holly. 'Hijacking' to you has been pretty consistently any consequence you don't like. |
Holly2003 08.05.2013 08:59 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Is there no low to which you will not sink, Holly? Are you going to hijack this topic too, just to spew your bile at Bob? Hijack? I'm responding to BOB's COMMENTS which are nothing to do with the actual topic (boxsets). lol Bob's not above spewing bile. I guess your mutual lovefest precludes you from seeing that. After all you are, according to Bob, "the best historian this forurm or any forum could ever have" (swoon) lol |
thomasquinn 32989 08.05.2013 10:10 |
You are completely fucking deluded if you see anything in that post to merit your ad-hominem. I'm not surprised, though. The pair of you are the definite postergirls for selectively blind self-righteousness. |
Holly2003 08.05.2013 10:15 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: You are completely fucking deluded if you see anything in that post to merit your ad-hominem. I'm not surprised, though. The pair of you are the definite postergirls for selectively blind self-righteousness. Settle down Thomas. You made an ass of yourself again. Admit it. ps I'm still waiting for an apology on that WTC thread where you called me a racist. You made an ass of yourself there too and then ran away with your tail between your legs. Are you going to grow a set of balls and admit you were wrong or continue as you are like an immature troll? |
thomasquinn 32989 08.05.2013 10:36 |
You need to learn to read. I didn't say you are a racist - I said you submit to racist sentiments. I'm not surprised either that this distinction is beyond your comprehension. |
Holly2003 08.05.2013 10:43 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: You need to learn to read. I didn't say you are a racist - I said you submit to racist sentiments. I'm not surprised either that this distinction is beyond your comprehension. An intellectually fraudulent answer from you. No surprise there. Here's what you said. "You really don't understand any of this, do you? As you might've noticed, if you ever noticed anything other than your own narrow-minded prejudice, I followed this thread when it was still new, back in 2010, so I know pretty well what it is about. But apparently you are such a bigot that you believe nobody has any right to even criticize the leaders of the Catholic church, but it's ok to violate the religious freedom of Muslims wholesale. I support equal treatment for everyone, regardless of race, gender, religious views, etc. You clearly don't." Still awaiting an apology ... Oh, and your lovely, nice 'wouldn't hurt a fly' mate Bob agreed with this bile. Before running off like you to hide. |
GratefulFan 08.05.2013 10:58 |
I would have highlighted the bit about the Catholic Church too. That was twisted and unfair in its own way given the complete absence of any such view one way or the other in your posts. Something that didn't exist was used to leverage other points that had no basis and I thought it genuinely rotten all around. |
GratefulFan 08.05.2013 10:58 |
Double post. |