| Jam Monkey 17.06.2010 17:35 |
An idea I have had for a while is to catalogue and collect all the unreleased material that has been shared; all those demos and convention recording etc... I think this would have a number of benefits. Firstly everyone would know what is out there and where it was. Right now this material is spread out over many locations, and in some cases may not be available any more. Having it all in one place would make it easy for new collectors to going. We could also put all the best available versions in one place. Secondly I get annoyed at the many fakes out there; all that rubbish made my changing the stereo balance or manipulating the 5.1 tracks. By knowing what is genuine we could begin to purge these fakes from the pool. Thirdly it might help with the wait for the box set. I am not talking about what is in private collections; this is just about what has been shared publicly. I am pretty sure I could do 90% of this myself, and I’ve already started, but I will need some help. If anyone with a good knowledge of shared material would like to help, then please get in touch. I am sure that together we could create something really worthwhile. My email is jam_monkey@hotmail.com Thanks Craig |
| rhyeking 17.06.2010 21:51 |
Certainly a noble and worthwile task. Adam Unger's excellent site, QueenVault.com is a good place to start for reference material on what's been leaked and what's been showcased at Queen conventions. |
| pittrek 18.06.2010 00:52 |
QueenVault.com is a fantastic site, but the demos are not listed chronologically |
| Jam Monkey 18.06.2010 01:01 |
Adam's site is indeed excellent, but of course he lists many demos that have not been shared as well! What I am talking about is a definative list of shared demos so everyone knows what is out there, and then collecting the best versions and putting them all in one place. Perhaps it is best if I take a stab at this first and then post my findings for corrections. |
| rhyeking 18.06.2010 01:35 |
Give it a few days, you'll get some replies from the hardcore collectors out there. Come to think of it, though, this Forum HAS been quiet lately. Too quiet... (my eyes survey the wilderness suspiciously...) |
| oh-ja 18.06.2010 06:01 |
link |
| The Real Wizard 18.06.2010 09:30 |
pittrek wrote: "QueenVault.com is a fantastic site, but the demos are not listed chronologically" Indeed. For starters, Silver Salmon is still listed under the debut album when it should be under News Of The World. The myth was long ago debunked |
| rhyeking 18.06.2010 12:56 |
If I'm wrong, I'm wrong...but.... "Silver Salmon" was a Tim Staffell track. The leaked demo appears to be from the Queen 1 period, where they were messing around with Smile tracks as well as their own, such as "Polar Bear" and "Doing all Right." By 1977, the band wouldn't need to pull out old Smile tracks. And even if they did, just to jam with, Freddie's vocal on the recording sounds much younger than his New Of The World recordings, even including the "Feeling Feelings" demo. SirGH, yours is the first statement I've read contradicting the origins of the song/recording. Was there a thread here I missed where the case was made and proven for the NOTW era origin? If so, I'd love to read it. I'm pretty sure Adam would as well, as he tends to be meticulous with his research. |
| Rick 18.06.2010 14:18 |
Bob is right. Just listen to both the drum and guitar sound. I believe you can hear timbales, which Roger used in that period. Also, Brian's distinctive guitar sound reminds me of songs like It's Late and WWRY fast version. Freddie still sounded 'young' back then as he didn't smoke yet (just an assumption, but sounds reasonable, doesn't it?). Don't underestimate him: he had a brilliant voice in that period! It's just a random jam of the song.The origins of the song might stem from the early seventies; this recording is definitely from a few years later. |
| rhyeking 18.06.2010 14:51 |
It's a compelling argument, but I'm still not convinced. For the longest time, it was argued that "Celebration" and "I Can't Get You Out Of My Head" were Strange Frontier era, Roger-penned tracks, both of which later definitively proven to be Cross songs, written by Spike Edney and Clayton Moss respectively. Like I said, I'm not saying I know one way ot the other, but we're all just bouncing around conjecture based on what we hear in the demo. |
| Jam Monkey 18.06.2010 16:09 |
Ok here is my first stab at a list of what has been shared. I've not included anything that is is any way 'released' such a multi tracks from Guitar Hero, or The Hitman demo. I've also not included anything I feel it 'fake' such as the various 'Acapella' or 'Instrumental' tracks that are just manipulated 5.1 tracks. I am sure there is more that could be added, but I've concentrated on 'proper' demos and convention recordings. The first step is to see if there is any more out there, and the second step will be to collect the best versions and share. Your thoughts please... De Lane Lea Demos Keep Yourself Alive Great King Rat Liar The Night Comes Down Jesus Demos Silver Salmon Polar Bear Feelings Feelings Feelings Staying Power Back Chat Action This Day Life Is Real (Song For Lennon) Las Palabras de Amor (The Words Of Love) Cool Cat Feel Like Keep Passing The Open Windows (1st Version) Keep Passing The Open Windows (2nd Version) The Miracle I Want It All (Vocal Demo) I Want It All (Instrumental Demo) The Invisible Man Scandal My Baby Loves Me Hang On In There Stealin' Hijack My Heart Too Much Love Will Kill You A New Life Is Born I Guess We're Falling Out Dog With A Bone (Studio Version) Headlong Delilah Self Made Man My Secret Fantasy Robbery Covention Recordings Great King Rat (1st Version) Great King Rat (2nd Version) Nevermore The March Of The Black Queen Funny How Love Is Brighton Rock Tenement Funster (Part recording only) In The Lap Of The Gods Tie Your Mother Down Somebody To Love (Studio Out-Takes) Somebody To Love (Vocal Out-Takes) Feelings Feelings ('Number 9' Version) Jealousy Let Me Entertain You Sail Away Sweet Sister Comming Soon (Instrumental Jam) Sandbox Dancer Back Chat Put Out The Fire It’s A Hard Life (Part recording only) I Go Crazy One Vison Khashoggi's Ship Rain Must Fall Dog With A Bone (Fan Club Version) Face It Alone (1st Version) Face It Alone (2nd Version) Multi-Tracks Brighton Rock Killer Queen Get Down Make Love Bohemian Rhapsody BBC Session 2 See What A Fool I’ve Been Liar Son and Daughter Keep Yourself Alive BBC Session 4 Modern Times Rock'n'Roll White Queen (As It Began) Nevermore The March Of The Black Queen BBC Session 5 Tenement Funster Flick Of The Wrist Now I'm Here Stone Cold Crazy Carousel BBC Session 6 We Will Rock You Spread Your Wings It's Late My Melancholy Blues Other The Call |
| rhyeking 18.06.2010 16:28 |
Jam Monkey wrote: Your thoughts please... De Lane Lea Demos Keep Yourself Alive Great King Rat Liar The Night Comes Down Jesus Demos Silver Salmon Polar Bear Feelings Feelings Feelings Staying Power Back Chat Action This Day Life Is Real (Song For Lennon) Las Palabras de Amor (The Words Of Love) Cool Cat Feel Like Keep Passing The Open Windows (1st Version) Keep Passing The Open Windows (2nd Version) The Miracle I Want It All (Vocal Demo) I Want It All (Instrumental Demo) The Invisible Man Scandal My Baby Loves Me Hang On In There Stealin' Hijack My Heart Too Much Love Will Kill You A New Life Is Born I Guess We're Falling Out Dog With A Bone (Studio Version) Headlong Delilah Self Made Man My Secret Fantasy Robbery Covention Recordings Great King Rat (1st Version) Great King Rat (2nd Version) Nevermore The March Of The Black Queen Funny How Love Is Brighton Rock Tenement Funster (Part recording only) In The Lap Of The Gods Tie Your Mother Down Somebody To Love (Studio Out-Takes) Somebody To Love (Vocal Out-Takes) Feelings Feelings ('Number 9' Version) Jealousy Let Me Entertain You Sail Away Sweet Sister Comming Soon (Instrumental Jam) Sandbox Dancer Back Chat Put Out The Fire It’s A Hard Life (Part recording only) I Go Crazy One Vison Khashoggi's Ship Rain Must Fall Dog With A Bone (Fan Club Version) Face It Alone (1st Version) Face It Alone (2nd Version) Multi-Tracks Brighton Rock Killer Queen Get Down Make Love Bohemian Rhapsody BBC Session 2 See What A Fool I’ve Been Liar Son and Daughter Keep Yourself Alive BBC Session 4 Modern Times Rock'n'Roll White Queen (As It Began) Nevermore The March Of The Black Queen BBC Session 5 Tenement Funster Flick Of The Wrist Now I'm Here Stone Cold Crazy Carousel BBC Session 6 We Will Rock You Spread Your Wings It's Late My Melancholy Blues Other The Call ================================= Thoughts: Wouldn't the best version of "The Night Comes Down" be from one of the recent remasters of the album? It WAS the same version as from the De Lane Lea sessions. Or is that not "demo-y" enough sounding, haha? What of "The Miracle Demos Medley"? Don't tell me we're chopping that up just to get to its component parts. Many of the individual parts are incomplete, but in the 'original' Medley form, as created by QP for the convention, to me they hold greater significance than being diced to pieces. Also, there are a few demos listed above I haven't got. Shame on me! What is "Carousel," listed under BBC Session 5? Is that refering to the Carousel music Brian used from the SFX LP in 1974? If so, it's a curiousity, sure, but not part of the BBC Session and neither is it, technically, a Queen track. It's just a sample they used for the song. |
| Simon Brown 18.06.2010 19:09 |
At some point didn't Greg send someone a fantastic quality alternate take of something from either Queen 1 or Queen 2 that they then uploaded here....can't actually remember what it was. |
| Simon Brown 18.06.2010 19:09 |
At some point didn't Greg send someone a fantastic quality alternate take of something from either Queen 1 or Queen 2 that they then uploaded here....can't actually remember what it was. |
| Kamenliter 19.06.2010 11:15 |
I too would like to read the thread about Silver Salmon being from the News of the World sessions. It sure feels like a Queen 1 outtake to me, but I could be wrong. I also don't understand why it should be so difficult to find this out for sure by asking Brian. He posts and seemingly corresponds so much with people through his website, isn't it an easy enough question for him to answer? Why is so much of Queen's history so seemingly secretive, when we have three members of the band still alive and well? |
| Jam Monkey 20.06.2010 03:02 |
Ok, firstly let me deal with the points raised. I added Carousel as it was included on the BBC Session recently shared by John and Peter. It was on the BBC master tape owned by John. I wasn't aware of The Miracle Medley, I had always had them as separate tracks. Of course we can included the medley, we just need someone to share it. There are a few questions I need answered before we can start to put something together to upload. 1) Do we want to include demos that have been released? In other words Butterfly and The Hitman. 2) Have the multitracks I mentioned been shared? I know they are widespread but I don't know if they are freely available. 3) Has the 'demo' of Machines ever been shared? I can't find it if it has. 4) Some demos seem to be know by other names. There is an instrumental jam that has been described as Dragon Attack and Comming Soon. Does anyone know what is actually is link 5) The demos called Feelings and Feelings Feelings are considered by some to be different versions of the same track. The lyrics are similar, is everyone happy we catalouge this way? |
| GinjaNinja 20.06.2010 07:49 |
1) I think we should include released demos, but instead of a download link, provide a link to purchase the item. If it is something very rare and of a limited number (The Hints of Innuendo Tape for example) then I believe it is acceptable to offer it for download. 2) Multitracks should be included in a section of their own, but not linked to from the site, as Brian was unhappy to see them out in the open. They are widely available on torrent and download sites, but again they should not be linked to. 3) I have a so-called Machines demo, although it is rather short and uninteresting. It will definitely have been shared somewhere, as I am relatively new to collecting Queen demos. If it is nowhere on this site I will upload it. 4) I am also curious as to the identity of this track, although I think Coming Soon is probably our best bet. It is almost certainly not Dragon Attack, as Queenvault provides a description completely different to the track in hand. 5) I think that "Feelings is perhaps just a jam that went on to inspire the song, or alternately, it is just a regular jam with Freddie utilising some of the lyrics from "Feelings Feelings". One interesting point is that the final chord of "Feelings" is the beginning of the "Silver Salmon" demo, and this is why I would catalogue it as from the NOTW sessions. Just my feelings. |
| Jam Monkey 20.06.2010 09:24 |
Thank you for that very thoughtful reply Ginja. I've always treated 'Feelings' and 'Feelings Feelings' as separate tracks, and I think I will continue to do so. I am happy to share The Hitman, and I have a much better version that commonly circulates from my copy of Hints Of Innuendo; but I don't want to get anyone (Particulary me) in trouble. No need to share the Machines demo, I have it and I will upload with the rest of the collection. |
| rhyeking 20.06.2010 11:13 |
I've always considered "Feelings" and " Feeling Feelings" as two different, independent compositions (regardless of the state of completion). The only thing they share is a similar name and that they're both demos. "Feeling Feelings" from the NOTW sessions sounds much more complete, with coherent lyrics and a pretty polished backing track. In fact, it could well have been issued as a B-side as is, in my opinion. I also think the fact that they have similar names, coupled with the fact that at one time (and still in dark corners of the internet) "Feelings" is quite erroneously refered to as "Silver Salmon Version 2," has resulted in a good many fans getting quite confused about the origin of these tracks. I know there are fans who believe that the leaked demo of "Silver Salmon" hails from NOTW and I'm not going to try to change anyone's mind on that. Here's my opinion: "Feelings" ( likely 1972, Queen 1 sessions) (also, in no way related, musically, to "SS" or "FF") "Silver Salmon" (likely 1972 Queen 1 sessions) "Feeling Feelings" (pretty certainly NOTW session) Okay, that's my two-cents on that issue. I'm still stuck on this "Carousel" track. Are we refering to the carousel music Brian used to intro Brighton Rock on SHA? If so, no matter who shared it with what other files, it's still not technically a Queen track. Nor is it unreleased. It's rare, I suppose, but if we insist on including it, it shouldn't be coupled with unrelated BBC session tracks. I'd classify it independanty, noting its "significance" clearly. Regarding "The Miracle Demos Medley," my understanding of this track is that it was compiled by someone at Queen Productions and played at a Fan Club Con in the '90s. It is a selection of demos from The Miracle (obviously) and is cleverly mixed together. The ending of the leaked verion cuts out part way into "Chinese Torture" and no one knows if that's how the original QP mix ended, or if the leaked version got cut somewhere down the line. I'll try to upload it, but no garauntees, as I've never tried to upload anything on QZ. If I fail, I'll at least make it a YouTube post and provide the link. Actually, it may already be up there somewhere. Once you hear it, you may agree that keeping the Medley intact is wiser than using the individual, incomplete tracks. I know I prefer to hear it all together, but that may just be me. |
| rhyeking 20.06.2010 13:49 |
Okay...a little help here... I'm trying to upload The Miracle Demos Medley and when I select "Upload" it tells me: "Please select at least one Text file". What does THAT mean? I've tried added a rtf and doc file to the upload, but I still get the same thing, nothing happens when I click "Upload". Is this a website glitch? I seem to be doing everything correctly. Help! |
| rhyeking 20.06.2010 14:27 |
Okay, let's try this... This is my first torrent upload ever. I hope it works. Here are some details: Title: The Miracle Demos Medley Recorded: various Miracle sessions, circa 1988 Length: 14 minutes, 10 seconds Many of the partial demos like "My Baby Loves Me" and "I Guess We're Falling Out" are edited from this. To the best of my knowledge this was compiled by someone in Queen Productions, played at a Fan Club Con (in the '90s?) and that master was subsequently leaked. Shortly afterwards, fans/collectors started editing the individual songs, taking the Medley apart piece by piece. The songs/demos featured are: "My Baby Loves Me" "I Guess We're Falling Out" "Fiddly Jam (the basis for Hang On In There)" "A New Life Is Born" "I Want It All (guitar demo)" "Chinese Torture (partial)" Enjoy! |
| GinjaNinja 20.06.2010 14:44 |
If you're making a torrent, you've got to seed the file for long enough so that other users can fully download it. Would t be simpler just to use Mediafire or Megaupload? |
| rhyeking 20.06.2010 14:52 |
It's seeding now (again)...I think. Who the fuck designed torrents to be so fucking user-unfriendly? There's NO feature on BitTorrent that simply says "Seed torrent." For that matter, why the fuck is it such a goddam pain to get a torrent posted on QZ? I read the entire "How to..." thread and followed the instructions and the motherfucker still didn't fucking do jack fucking shit! Can you tell I'm pissed? :-) |
| GinjaNinja 20.06.2010 15:11 |
Preach it sistah!! (or brother) Torrents ain't my thing either, but perseverance will triumph! |
| John S Stuart 20.06.2010 15:22 |
For the record: Carousel was NOT or ever was part of the BBC session. It was the just next track on my mini-disc master of my alternative 'Sheer Heart Attack' mixes/remixes and out-takes. Because the BBC session was divided into tracks of John Peel's commentary and music, I programmed one too many tracks to be copied - this is how it ended up on Pitrek's CD. |
| rhyeking 20.06.2010 15:59 |
Thanks, John, for 'officially' confirming what I was saying about "Carousel". Someone is downloading the Medley, so I guess it's working now. It was still too freakin' complicated for its own good getting it up and going. |
| Jam Monkey 20.06.2010 16:04 |
I download the medley, and I am seeding. Thank you for this share. I agree it makes more sense to have it as medley, now I know why 'I Guess We're Falling Out' starts with the 'My Baby Loves Me' drum beat. Now we have to decide who we get these up on the web. |
| The Real Wizard 21.06.2010 13:53 |
rhyeking wrote: "Was there a thread here I missed where the case was made and proven for the NOTW era origin?" There was, but it was a few years back. The search function here is of no help. Silver Salmon was originally from the early days, but the recording we have is from 1977. I can be 100% sure. Here's the supporting evidence: 1) Queen decided to strip down their sound for News Of The World after the bombast of the last two albums. Silver Salmon was an older track they revisited, but it ultimately took a pass. 2) The drum kit used on all three tracks in question (including the so-called "Feelings" jam) is identical. It contains timbales, which Roger used ONLY on the NOTW album. 3) Roger's drum style is greatly evolved on these three tracks. He didn't use the "slightly open hi-hat with snare" technique in the early days like he did by 1977. 4) Freddie's voice is greatly developed. 5) The sound on Feelings Feelings and Silver Salmon is identical - mix, EQ, everything. 6) The two songs leaked at the same time. They're from the same tape. There is not a chance that any of these tracks are from 1971 or 1972. There has never been any evidence suggesting these tracks are from any year but 1977, other than folklore. |
| The Real Wizard 21.06.2010 14:03 |
An afterthought... The list of "demos" is great, but demos need to be distinguished from actual studio takes. But unfortunately there is very little such information available. Here's all the info I have about the studio takes that are available: 1972 - Great King Rat (takes 1 and 4) 1973 - Funny How Love Is (take 4) 1973 - The March Of The Black Queen (takes 3-5) 1976 - Somebody To Love (takes 1-5) 1977 - Feelings Feelings (take 6) 1982 - Staying Power (January 27, unknown take) 1982 - Life Is Real (February 7, unknown take) I'm just going by what I've read, as I'm no expert of the band in the studio. And quite frankly, I don't think anyone is, because it doesn't seem the information has ever been compiled into one place, like it has been for The Beatles, for example. There's a day by day book of the Beatles' studio work, and it's an incredible read. |
| Benn Kempster 21.06.2010 15:54 |
Sir GH, re: >>1) Queen decided to strip down their sound for News Of The World after the bombast of the last two albums. Silver Salmon was an older track they revisited, but it ultimately took a pass. Ihave a hard time believing that they would bother to revisit something THAT old and which, unlike "Hangman", never made it any further. You say that they revisited the track in 1977 - what evidence is that that this is true? Is it just an assumption on your part? (Please don't take that as an accusation - just interested to know.) >5) The sound on Feelings Feelings and Silver Salmon is identical - mix, EQ, everything. To me, the two tracks are from exactly the same tape, absolutely. The high pitched guitar chord at the end of "Feelings Feelings" goes straight into the chord played at the start of the "Silver Salmon" track. When burnt to disc with no track break, it's evident that this is a splice out of a session reel. Now, if this is from 1977, how do you account for Freddie saying "I know he doesn't know it" in the version with studio chatter preceding the track? That, to me, sounds like it's come from a tape of an early session with John finding his way around material that Queen have been playing around with. In this regard, it appears to me, given the above and the "innocent" pitch of Freddie's voice, that all of this comes from whatever session "Polar Bear" emerged from. Freddie's voice was W A Y too mature in 1977 for "Feelings Feelings" or "Silver Salmon" to have come from the NOTW sessions. |
| Tim June 21.06.2010 17:29 |
Hi, thank you very much for upload the Miracle medley! |
| rhyeking 21.06.2010 20:38 |
Call me stubborn (I've been called worse), but as compelling as SirGH's argument is, I'm only willing to entertain the possibility and won't be drafted into the NOTW camp just yet. In support of the idea is that Queen-fandom has a history of mis-attributing such demos, such as claiming Barry Mitchell's involvement on at least one and the aforementioned "Celebration" and "I Can Get You Out Of My Head." I'm stepping out of the debate on these particular demos, because until someone in the Queen camp weighs in, it's going to keep going back and forth. Someone write Brian, ask, "Hey Bri, did you guys ever jam on Silver Salmon while recording the News Of The World album? Rumors are flying that you guys did. Also, was Silver Salmon written by Tim Staffell or Freddie?" If he replies, great. Oh, and you're welcome, everyone who thanked me for The Miracle Demos Medley. I'm glad it worked, but man, it was a pain. Peace |
| The Real Wizard 21.06.2010 20:40 |
Benn Kempster wrote: "I have a hard time believing that they would bother to revisit something THAT old and which, unlike "Hangman", never made it any further. You say that they revisited the track in 1977 - what evidence is that that this is true? Is it just an assumption on your part? (Please don't take that as an accusation - just interested to know.)" Of course, I'm happy to be called on anything. Naturally, this isn't *evidence* as much as it's a suggestion based on the band's history. But to my ears, everything on the recording points to 1977 - their overall sound as a band, the drum kit being used, and the maturity of Freddie's voice. It's a lot huskier than it was in 1972. He may sound a bit timid to the point that it may sound like it's from a few years earlier, but let's not forget that they're just running a song for their own amusement. His voice cracks a couple times, but maybe it was the end of a long day in the studio. At the beginning of the second verse, on "all along the silver skies," the way he draws out "skiiiiiies-ahh" has News Of The World written all over it. Sometimes bands revisit old song ideas for fun. Let's not forget We Are The Champions was written in 1975 - perhaps even earlier. Even if there were 10 arguments in favour of it, the drum argument is the only one we need. Unless someone can prove that Roger had a studio kit with timbales in a year other than 1977, I think we should be able to seal the deal on this one. "Now, if this is from 1977, how do you account for Freddie saying "I know he doesn't know it" in the version with studio chatter preceding the track? That, to me, sounds like it's come from a tape of an early session with John finding his way around material that Queen have been playing around with." I take that comment as John not knowing it because he may not have been in the band (or at least, present) when they originally rehearsed the song in 1971. |
| Jam Monkey 22.06.2010 01:35 |
Sir GH wrote: An afterthought... The list of "demos" is great, but demos need to be distinguished from actual studio takes. But unfortunately there is very little such information available. Here's all the info I have about the studio takes that are available: 1972 - Great King Rat (takes 1 and 4) 1973 - Funny How Love Is (take 4) 1973 - The March Of The Black Queen (takes 3-5) 1976 - Somebody To Love (takes 1-5) 1977 - Feelings Feelings (take 6) 1982 - Staying Power (January 27, unknown take) 1982 - Life Is Real (February 7, unknown take) I'm just going by what I've read, as I'm no expert of the band in the studio. And quite frankly, I don't think anyone is, because it doesn't seem the information has ever been compiled into one place, like it has been for The Beatles, for example. There's a day by day book of the Beatles' studio work, and it's an incredible read. _____________________________________________________________________________________________ I understand completely about separating studio takes from demos. My thoughts when compling the list was just to keep things as simple as possible. From my experience of seeing peoples own trade lists etc. lot of people have different naming conventions for unreleased tracks. I thought it would be best just to keep it plain and allow people to call them what they want. |
| Jam Monkey 26.06.2010 04:49 |
I just finished uploading all the demos, please see this thread: link |
| FriedChicken 29.06.2010 03:26 |
Sir GH wrote: An afterthought... The list of "demos" is great, but demos need to be distinguished from actual studio takes. But unfortunately there is very little such information available. Here's all the info I have about the studio takes that are available: 1972 - Great King Rat (takes 1 and 4) 1973 - Funny How Love Is (take 4) 1973 - The March Of The Black Queen (takes 3-5) 1976 - Somebody To Love (takes 1-5) 1977 - Feelings Feelings (take 6) 1982 - Staying Power (January 27, unknown take) 1982 - Life Is Real (February 7, unknown take) I'm just going by what I've read, as I'm no expert of the band in the studio. And quite frankly, I don't think anyone is, because it doesn't seem the information has ever been compiled into one place, like it has been for The Beatles, for example. There's a day by day book of the Beatles' studio work, and it's an incredible read. I agree, the Queen unreleased catalogue is so poorly documented, which is probably due to lack of studio knowledge and p2p sharing (we all remember Mr Roboto, don't we?). Stuff which is tagged as demo's aren't demo's but studio takes and there's a lot of fake stuff going around as well. How do you know Feelings Feelings is a take 6, Bob? |
| FriedChicken 29.06.2010 03:32 |
"Now, if this is from 1977, how do you account for Freddie saying "I know he doesn't know it" in the version with studio chatter preceding the track? That, to me, sounds like it's come from a tape of an early session with John finding his way around material that Queen have been playing around with." @Benn If you listen carefully you can hear Freddie say: "Let's play a bit or Silver Samon, I know he (probably John) doesn't know it, but he might just play on". Apparantly he didn't play on, as there is no bass at all in the recording. It wouldn't be logical to waste precious 1972 studio time playing and recording (1) a song the bass player doesn't know. (remember they were recording in studio down-time whenever they had an hour or so between bigger artists. |
| Negative Creep 29.06.2010 07:43 |
FriedChicken wrote: It wouldn't be logical to waste precious 1972 studio time playing and recording (1) a song the bass player doesn't know. (remember they were recording in studio down-time whenever they had an hour or so between bigger artists. That is purely a playback that's been bootlegged (hence the chatter and the sound of the tape being started), and there most likely exists a later proper mix that is finished with the bass overdubbed. It seems that the band laid the track down first without bass - and the band often revisited recordings some time after laying them down. Interesting if they're from the NOTW sessions - they sound a lot fuller than anything from that album. |
| The Real Wizard 29.06.2010 09:56 |
FriedChicken wrote: "How do you know Feelings Feelings is a take 6, Bob?" Like I said, I don't know. It's just something I once read, so I'm simply going by that until more accurate comes along.. if it ever comes along. "It wouldn't be logical to waste precious 1972 studio time playing and recording (1) a song the bass player doesn't know. (remember they were recording in studio down-time whenever they had an hour or so between bigger artists." Exactly. Another argument to add to the pile. |
| The Real Wizard 29.06.2010 10:06 |
Negative Creep wrote: "It seems that the band laid the track down first without bass - and the band often revisited recordings some time after laying them down" There definitely is bass on the recording we have, but it's far-fetched to suggest it was added on a later date. This is simply a jam and the tape is rolling. I'm using this video as a time reference - link John comes in at :18 after he gets a brief feel for the song. At :32 the chords change for the chorus. He's still playing an E and switches to D when he realizes the chord is D. As a musician, this indicates to me that John is learning the song as it goes along. There's not a chance he'd be learning a tune like this while recording in 1971 or 72 when they had very limited studio time. The learning was done somewhere else. We've put on our best historians' caps and we have several pieces of evidence strongly suggesting this is from 1977. All we have at this point is folklore suggesting it's 1971/72. I think we need to lay this one to rest until some tangible evidence comes to light. Otherwise it'd be like hanging onto the notion that everything in the bible is historically accurate despite the fact that there are credible historical sources that suggest otherwise in most cases. I think we're better than that. |
| Negative Creep 29.06.2010 11:49 |
Sir GH wrote: There definitely is bass on the recording we have, but it's far-fetched to suggest it was added on a later date. This is simply a jam and the tape is rolling. I'm using this video as a time reference - link John comes in at :18 after he gets a brief feel for the song. At :32 the chords change for the chorus. He's still playing an E and switches to D when he realizes the chord is D. As a musician, this indicates to me that John is learning the song as it goes along. There's not a chance he'd be learning a tune like this while recording in 1971 or 72 when they had very limited studio time. That was done somewhere else. I haven't listened to the song for a long time - I was merely suggesting a possible scenario based on what someone else said. But saying that a bass line or anything on a recording couldn't be overdubbed isn't far-fetched at all, no matter how jammed something may appear to be. |
| The Real Wizard 29.06.2010 13:07 |
As a musician, can you pick out anything in the bass playing that may suggest it was overdubbed later? It seems pretty clear to me that they are playing as a 4-piece band at the same time and that the bass player is learning the song on the fly. |
| Negative Creep 29.06.2010 15:18 |
As I'd already stated, my initial comment was based purely on someone elses comment. My comment regarding overdubbing was general. But, unless for example you can hear the snare wires responding to the bass frequencies etc, you have no way of fully knowing whether the bass was put down live or dubbed over it - no matter how bad you might think the playing is. Just listened again and the versions available are of the band listening back to a playback (one version has just cut the intro off), for all you know they may have laid down the track whilst John wasn't there and the recording is of John practising over it or Brian just put a rough track down. And so who is Freddie saying doesn't know the song? He's saying that prior to playing back the track. They wouldn't bother trying to record something live if one of the band didn't know the song?! And if it's from 77 - it's more likely to be from a demo session than the actual NOTW sessions surely? Sonically different and they wouldn't be messing around with old songs that the band haven't played together properly. |
| The Real Wizard 30.06.2010 14:08 |
Negative Creep wrote: "They wouldn't bother trying to record something live if one of the band didn't know the song?! And if it's from 77 - it's more likely to be from a demo session than the actual NOTW sessions surely? Sonically different and they wouldn't be messing around with old songs that the band haven't played together properly." Questions like these are begging to be answered, but we know so little about Queen's creative process. So many gaps need to be filled in, i.e. with liner notes in a boxed set. Then we'll know if they did writing, demos, and recordings in separate sessions or not, and when. |