Freya is quietly judging you. 16.05.2007 15:31 |
Just wondering how many of you had heard about this? I'm sure everybody in the UK knows about it (How could you not.) But I'm not sure if it's 'world news'. Just in case people don't know - link link I think it's just disgusting that somebody could kidnap a child, especially one so young. She's only 4 years old (Well, she was 3 when she was abducted, on May 3rd) I can't imagine what would possess someone to take such a young child away from its parents. Although it's nearly been 2 weeks, I still hold out some hope for her to be found, mainly because I'm naïve enough to think that nobody could murder somebody so young. Anyway, what are your opinions? Do you think her parents should have left her and their 2 other children alone in the holiday apartment? Myself, I can see why they did leave them alone. When I was in the New Forest at Easter, we left my 8 month old cousin, who coincidentally is called Madeleine, in the hotel room while we ate in the evening. However, we were on the same floor in the same building in the hotel and we had the baby monitor with us and every 20 minutes either my aunt or uncle went to check on her. However, I think we might think twice about doing that next year. Anyway, whether or not they should have left them alone, I think we can all agree that it would be amazing if little Madeleine could be returned safely to her parents. Whether that will happen or not, is a different matter. |
bitesthedust 16.05.2007 15:34 |
I hope she is returned to her parents, of course but I don't think I would have left a child unattended. But that is beside the point now. Hopefully she will be found soon. |
Micrówave 16.05.2007 15:37 |
It's amazing what some people will do. There was a woman arrested here last week for leaving her 3 kids (ages 4 & under) home... WHILE SHE WENT OUT ON A DATE!!! |
Freya is quietly judging you. 16.05.2007 15:42 |
Micrówave wrote: It's amazing what some people will do. There was a woman arrested here last week for leaving her 3 kids (ages 4 & under) home... WHILE SHE WENT OUT ON A DATE!!!Obviously that isn't right, but I don't believe what Madeleine's parents did was negligence. The restaurant they were in was 100 yards from the holiday apartment and they were checking on their children every half an hour. Maybe they should have brought their children with them, but, I can see why they did what they did. |
its_a_hard_life 26994 16.05.2007 15:52 |
Bring her back you motherfucker. :( So sad, man. |
Janet 16.05.2007 16:30 |
As a parent, you must make sacrifices. There were many many times when my son was small that I wished I could go out to a certain restaurant, or to a concert, whatever. But unless there was someone available to properly supervise him, I would have never ever dreamed of leaving him alone at the age of 3. Or 4, or 5. It only takes a split second for an accident to happen, for a child to wander off, to fall out a window, to break a glass and get cut, and on, and on. And then the damage is done. If they wanted to go out without their children they should have found someone trustworthy to attend to them while they were out. And if they could not they should have gone to a family oriented restaurant and taken their children, or got carry out. Nonetheless, I hope that poor child is returned to her family. And I hope that if she is that they behave more responsibly. |
magicalfreddiemercury 16.05.2007 17:19 |
Janet wrote: As a parent, you must make sacrifices. There were many many times when my son was small that I wished I could go out to a certain restaurant, or to a concert, whatever. But unless there was someone available to properly supervise him, I would have never ever dreamed of leaving him alone at the age of 3. Or 4, or 5. It only takes a split second for an accident to happen, for a child to wander off, to fall out a window, to break a glass and get cut, and on, and on. And then the damage is done. If they wanted to go out without their children they should found someone trustworthy to attend to them while they were out. And if they could not they should have gone to a family oriented restaurant and taken their children, or got carry out. Nonetheless, I hope that poor child is returned to her family. And I hope that if she is that they behave more responsibly.Janet, you are exactly right. I agree with this 100%. |
Penetration_Guru 16.05.2007 18:28 |
You'd expect doctors who've had to undergo IVF just to produce children to be more...present. Plus, the issue shouldn't be whether you can leave a 3 year old,it's whether there can be any possible justification for leaving two 2 year olds and a 3 year old unsupervised (despite onsite babysitting facilities and the fact that you're a PARENT, and therefore have responsibilities), other than pure selfishness. I hope that the child either died quickly and relatively painlessly, or is returned with as little abuse as possible. However I also hope that the parents have their remaining children taken off them once they return to the UK and are forever stigmatised as a result not only of their actions, but of their bleating to the press in lieu of accepting the blame for their role in the incident. |
Penetration_Guru 16.05.2007 18:29 |
I further think that a wikipedia page on the subject is fucking appaling. What's the point? Doesn't the BBC cover the subject in enough harrowing detail??? |
Freya is quietly judging you. 16.05.2007 18:36 |
Penetration_Guru wrote: You'd expect doctors who've had to undergo IVF just to produce children to be more...present. Plus, the issue shouldn't be whether you can leave a 3 year old,it's whether there can be any possible justification for leaving two 2 year olds and a 3 year old unsupervised (despite onsite babysitting facilities and the fact that you're a PARENT, and therefore have responsibilities), other than pure selfishness. I hope that the child either died quickly and relatively painlessly, or is returned with as little abuse as possible. However I also hope that the parents have their remaining children taken off them once they return to the UK and are forever stigmatised as a result not only of their actions, but of their bleating to the press in lieu of accepting the blame for their role in the incident.I'm sure what's happened is punishment enough, without having their remaining children taken away from them. I don't blame the parents, it's not their fault that a sick person took their child. Perhaps they could have been more careful, but I think they've learnt their lesson. You can see how important their children are to them and I doubt they would ever knowingly put their children in danger. Maybe I'm just too naive though. |
AspiringPhilosophe 16.05.2007 18:52 |
Janet, I totally agree with you, but unfortunately it doesn't take brains to breed, naturally or through IVF. You just need to know how to screw, or have the money to pay for IVF. I don't care how far the restaurant was from the hotel room, or that they were checking on them regularly...what they did was inexcusable. I would say that the parents deserve what happend, but that would be unfair to the innocent Madeline. As a parent, you DON'T EVER leave your child unsupervised...ever. When you have a child, you have a responsibility and a duty to raise that child and protect that child until they are old enough to protect themselves. The only excusable way I could see this working is if the other children were 16+. I also hope that Madeline died painlessly, because she probably is. If she's still alive, I hope that they never let her go back to her obviously negligent parents, and I hope they take away the other children. These people are obviously not ready to be parents, nor are they responsible enough. |
magicalfreddiemercury 16.05.2007 19:05 |
<b><font color=009966>?Freya? wrote: I'm sure what's happened is punishment enough, without having their remaining children taken away from them. I don't blame the parents, it's not their fault that a sick person took their child. Perhaps they could have been more careful, but I think they've learnt their lesson. You can see how important their children are to them and I doubt they would ever knowingly put their children in danger. Maybe I'm just too naive though.I'm sorry, Freya, but I'll have to agree only with your last statement. While I'm sure the parents are suffering over what's happened - and what they imagine has happened - it's not necessarily punishing them to take away their remaining children as much as it is protecting those children from clearly irresponsible parents. No, it is not their fault that some sick person took their child, but it IS their fault that the opportunity arose. They weren't asleep in the next room. They weren't even in the same building. That is negligent. And if they did this, as you say without 'knowingly leaving their children in danger', then they are no less dangerous as parents than a parent who did it knowingly. Instead, these parents are clearly ignorant to the needs of children and to the responsibilities of caretakers. Could this have happened if they were right there? Possibly. But it didn't. THIS child was abducted because her parents took some alone time without providing alternate supervision for their children. There is no excuse for what they did. The agony that guilt will cause them until/unless this child is found will be excruciating. But, sadly, they are indeed to blame. |
Freya is quietly judging you. 16.05.2007 19:12 |
CMU HistoryGirl wrote: Janet, I totally agree with you, but unfortunately it doesn't take brains to breed, naturally or through IVF. You just need to know how to screw, or have the money to pay for IVF. I don't care how far the restaurant was from the hotel room, or that they were checking on them regularly...what they did was inexcusable. I would say that the parents deserve what happend, but that would be unfair to the innocent Madeline. As a parent, you DON'T EVER leave your child unsupervised...ever. When you have a child, you have a responsibility and a duty to raise that child and protect that child until they are old enough to protect themselves. The only excusable way I could see this working is if the other children were 16+. I also hope that Madeline died painlessly, because she probably is. If she's still alive, I hope that they never let her go back to her obviously negligent parents, and I hope they take away the other children. These people are obviously not ready to be parents, nor are they responsible enough.Oh please, people leave young children all the time and it doesn't make them bad parents. I used to have a friend whose parents always used to leave her and her younger sister alone when they were about 4 or 5, and I never agreed with it, but no harm ever came of it. I think it's totally wrong to say these children should be taken away from their parents. Doing that would definitely cause more harm than good. Like I said in my first posting, we left my cousin alone in a hotel room and she's 8 months old, and that certainly doesn't make my aunt and uncle bad parents, in fact I have never met a set of more devoted parents than my aunt and uncle. Granted, it was completely different, we were in the same building and same floor as my cousin and could practically see the door of the room from where we were, and we had the baby monitor so we could hear her all the time. Perhaps it's slightly different when they're older and they can walk, because, as Janet said , it only takes a split second for a child to wander off and hurt themselves. Nobody could've guessed that would've happened and whether or not it was 'their fault' NOBODY deserves that. There are children treated a lot worse than they treat their children who don't get their kids taken away, and I think things should be kept in perspective. The parents did not harm their children, they simply made a terrible mistake. |
Lisser 16.05.2007 19:58 |
As a parent and a social worker, the state I live in, it is illegal to leave a child under the age of 8 unsupervised. Even a child over the age of 8 it is still up to a Cabinet for Health and Family Services worker to make the judgement call on whether or not the child who is being left alone knows what to do incase of a fire or other emergency. If that social worker does not feel that child, no matter the age of 8 or 11 is not capabable of being left alone, they must call a judge and ask for an emergency custody order to take the child. Then a whole other process/investigation/court trials take place. As a mother and a social worker, children should never be left out of the sight of their parents for even a second if at all possible. My children are never out of my sight unless they are at school, their babysitter's, or their grandparents. I have an 8 year old daughter and she is allowed to play outside with her friends while I sit in our driveway and watch her. She has three friends that I allow her to go inside their homes to play bc I've been in their homes, met their parents, and am comfortable that the homes are safe. Maybe I am too strict but these are my children and my responsibility and I will never EVER allow them to be put in a situation where someone will EVER have an opportunity to take them from me. If someone wants to try and take them from me, then they had better be prepared for a brutal fight or to kill me bc that is the only way someone will ever be able to take my children from me. This world has a lot of awful people in it. You can't trust anyone hardly. I have not read that story you posted yet Freya but I have heard about it and it's awful. I'm not sure who is to blame since I haven't read it but I will read it. Placing blame right now though won't solve much. But I can say that from personal experience that if you keep your eyes on your children at ALL times, the chances of them being taken from someone who is not supposed to have them is slim to none. Like I said before, the only way my children will be abducted is if someone kills me or disables me from holding on to them bc I'd never let anyone take them from me while I was alive. Some might say there is no way that I can keep my eyes on my children 24/7 and that is true. While they are in my house, safe, then I don't have to keep my eyes on them constantly. But if we are at the grocery store, Anthony is in the shopping cart and Cameron walks next to me with one hand on the cart. The both know that it would only take a second for someone to take them from me and they know they don't want to be taken from their parents so they stay close. When we go to public parks where my children might be in two different spots where I can't physically watch them both at all times, then I take another set of eyes with me, either my husband or a friend, or their grandparents. There is no other option in today's world. I don't care who thinks I'm being irrational or too hovering. I love my children more than anything else in this world and they will NEVER be put in a situation to where someone can take them and they will never be left alone at home until they reach a mental and physical age where I feel like they are capable of handling emergency situations. I do not know when that will happen but I'll know when its right. This is all my own personal beliefs and choices with my own children. Everyone else can do what they like but I can live every day of my life knowing that my children will NEVER be taken from me bc I will be with them at all times. They are my responsibility, no one else's. I am responsible for their safety and well-being. |
-fatty- 2850 16.05.2007 20:42 |
I hate to sound so cold but lets be honest. How many of us really care about what may or may not have happened to that little girl? Of course I'd love to see her returned alive and well to her family but all this media attention is doing nothing more than to flog a few newspapers and show the great British public up for the mindless fuckwits they really are. This has happened time and time again. Princess Diana dies and we queue for hours to sign books or lay flowers for someone we have never met. The World Trade Centres are attacked and again we feel we have to put on a huge display of public grief with each one of us a little more upset than the last. Remember when Ken Bigley had his head lopped off on video (does any one else even remember Ken Bigley?) and one silly wee girl from Queenzone made a special website where we were all supposed to line up and pay our respects. Now along comes another tragedy and the press convinces us that we should all be beating our chests and trying to outdo each other in the grief stakes. It's a pretty safe bet that ther will be a 2 minute ( or are we up to 10 minutes now?) silence at football matches the length and breadth of the UK in the next week or so. I hate to be the one who breaks this but there are kids dying right now in Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan and in every other continent of the world. Whn do they get their pictures on the front page of the newspapers? If you know the family and want to offer support, feel free but all this forced grief is doing nothing but paying for Mr Murdoch's next ivory back-scratcher. fatty. |
***Marial-B*** 17.05.2007 02:52 |
Well... here in Gran Canaria there has been 2 kidnappings: 1 of a 14 year old girl named Sara and one of a 7 year old boy named Jeremi. I think that these kind of things are like very complicated. So, almost 3 in a row in Spain -.-' |
The Mir@cle 17.05.2007 06:08 |
<b><font color=009966>?Freya? wrote:Let's not blame the parents, but the sick asshole who took her. And to be honest... I'm afraid she's not alive anymore, or she's alive in some cellar being abused all days.Micrówave wrote: It's amazing what some people will do. There was a woman arrested here last week for leaving her 3 kids (ages 4 & under) home... WHILE SHE WENT OUT ON A DATE!!!Obviously that isn't right, but I don't believe what Madeleine's parents did was negligence. The restaurant they were in was 100 yards from the holiday apartment and they were checking on their children every half an hour. Maybe they should have brought their children with them, but, I can see why they did what they did. |
john bodega 17.05.2007 06:23 |
Shit happens. Really... you can blame anyone you want, but the perp obviously had it in their head that they were going to snatch a kid. If it wasn't this one, it may well have been someone else. I can't understate the importance of keeping an eye on your kids pretty much at all times. For every hundred days nothing goes wrong 'when I only left him for a minute', there can always be one fuck up. And you need to be around to deal with it. Within earshot. It's just how childbearing is. I'm only an uncle, but this stuff is common sense to me. Well.... here's hoping they find the kid, anyway. |
AspiringPhilosophe 17.05.2007 11:47 |
<b><font color=009966>?Freya? wrote:I have to disagree, Freya. You may think your friends, or your aunt or uncle are not bad parents, but it only takes 30 seconds for a child to be abducted, or 30 seconds from them to hurt themselves. I'm not trying to absolve the abductor of responsibility...he/she needs to be caught and punished. But I am saying that he never could have abducted her had her parents protected her, like they are supposed to do. They NEVER should have left the floor without taking their children with them...they provided the opprotunity that the abductor used to take Madeline. This makes them half responsible for that happend. It's like saying, "Oh, yeah, there is a pool in the backyard without a cover or fence, and my 5 year old is out there alone with no one watching her, but it's ok...nothing bad will happen." Do I need to tell you how many times this statement has been proven tragically wrong? These are children we are talking about...not pets or full grown adults. They don't know how to protect themselves, and when you have responsibility for a child (parent, relative, babysitter, etc.) you have to protect that child not only from others, but from themselves. The "Nobody could have known what would happen" argument doesn't hold water. We can't see the future, we can't know it, and it's a matter of choice in the end. Are you willing to bet on the fact that noCMU HistoryGirl wrote: Janet, I totally agree with you, but unfortunately it doesn't take brains to breed, naturally or through IVF. You just need to know how to screw, or have the money to pay for IVF. I don't care how far the restaurant was from the hotel room, or that they were checking on them regularly...what they did was inexcusable. I would say that the parents deserve what happend, but that would be unfair to the innocent Madeline. As a parent, you DON'T EVER leave your child unsupervised...ever. When you have a child, you have a responsibility and a duty to raise that child and protect that child until they are old enough to protect themselves. The only excusable way I could see this working is if the other children were 16+. I also hope that Madeline died painlessly, because she probably is. If she's still alive, I hope that they never let her go back to her obviously negligent parents, and I hope they take away the other children. These people are obviously not ready to be parents, nor are they responsible enough.Oh please, people leave young children all the time and it doesn't make them bad parents. I used to have a friend whose parents always used to leave her and her younger sister alone when they were about 4 or 5, and I never agreed with it, but no harm ever came of it. I think it's totally wrong to say these children should be taken away from their parents. Doing that would definitely cause more harm than good. Like I said in my first posting, we left my cousin alone in a hotel room and she's 8 months old, and that certainly doesn't make my aunt and uncle bad parents, in fact I have never met a set of more devoted parents than my aunt and uncle. Granted, it was completely different, we were in the same building and same floor as my cousin and could practically see the door of the room from where we were, and we had the baby monitor so we could hear her all the time. Perhaps it's slightly different when they're older and they can walk, because, as Janet said , it only takes a split second for a child to wander off and hurt themselves. Nobody could've guessed that would've happened and whether or not it was 'their fault' NOBODY deserves that. There are children treated a lot worse than they treat their children who don't get their kids taken away, and I think things should be kept in perspective. The parents did not harm their children, they simply made a terrible mistake. |
Killer Queenie 17.05.2007 13:06 |
This reminds me of the girl that was abducted back in 2000 - Sarah Payne. Dont ask why... It's just really sad that a family can't go on holiday and leave thier kids somewhere without summat like this happening. Now, a lot of people are blaming the parents, saying they were irresponible to leave them on their own. But the parents must have been fairly confiedent that they could leave them on their own - so that must mean that they've leaft them on their own before... Now my parents leave me on my own - but that's completely different because I'm a lot older and responsible. But her parents were only a matter of minutes away from their apartment - am I right? So there must have been someone watching the apartment day and night - it would be pot luck to walk into an aparment and find a little girl on her own. I do hope they find this little girl - but (I'm sorry of this sounds like I'm being negative) it's been two weeks. The chances of finding her are growing slimmer all the while. I do hope they find her though. |
.DeaconJohn. 17.05.2007 14:15 |
fatty wrote: I hate to sound so cold but lets be honest. How many of us really care about what may or may not have happened to that little girl? Of course I'd love to see her returned alive and well to her family but all this media attention is doing nothing more than to flog a few newspapers and show the great British public up for the mindless fuckwits they really are. This has happened time and time again. Princess Diana dies and we queue for hours to sign books or lay flowers for someone we have never met. The World Trade Centres are attacked and again we feel we have to put on a huge display of public grief with each one of us a little more upset than the last. Remember when Ken Bigley had his head lopped off on video (does any one else even remember Ken Bigley?) and one silly wee girl from Queenzone made a special website where we were all supposed to line up and pay our respects. Now along comes another tragedy and the press convinces us that we should all be beating our chests and trying to outdo each other in the grief stakes. It's a pretty safe bet that ther will be a 2 minute ( or are we up to 10 minutes now?) silence at football matches the length and breadth of the UK in the next week or so. I hate to be the one who breaks this but there are kids dying right now in Africa, Iraq, Afghanistan and in every other continent of the world. Whn do they get their pictures on the front page of the newspapers? If you know the family and want to offer support, feel free but all this forced grief is doing nothing but paying for Mr Murdoch's next ivory back-scratcher. fatty.Thank you, finally someone tells it like it is. And if she's not found, soon, the public will get bored with this little real-life soap opera and forget all about her. The false grief is cringeworthy. It just gives the average joe on the street something to gossip about in the same way they would gossip about what's happened in Coronation Street/EastEnders/Emmerdale (delete as applicable) lately. And gives the newspapers a very easy way to fill pages. Sickening. Oh, and I do blame the parents. Selfish idiots. |
magicalfreddiemercury 17.05.2007 14:47 |
.DeaconJohn. wrote: The false grief is cringeworthy. It just gives the average joe on the street something to gossip about in the same way they would gossip about what's happened in Coronation Street/EastEnders/Emmerdale (delete as applicable) lately. And gives the newspapers a very easy way to fill pages.It might be false grief for some, but for others it truly is compassion and concern. For still others, it serves as a wake-up call. Maybe these parents wouldn't have been so lax in their responsibilities had something similar just recently hit the headlines. Stories like this remind us to look out for ourselves and our own. We get complacent sometimes and forget to do a double check. It doesn't mean we have to live in fear all the time, but caution certainly makes sense. Though it's awful for all involved, this situation should remind us of that. |
Freya is quietly judging you. 17.05.2007 17:57 |
CMU HistoryGirl wrote: I have to disagree, Freya. You may think your friends, or your aunt or uncle are not bad parents, but it only takes 30 seconds for a child to be abducted, or 30 seconds from them to hurt themselves. I'm not trying to absolve the abductor of responsibility...he/she needs to be caught and punished. But I am saying that he never could have abducted her had her parents protected her, like they are supposed to do. They NEVER should have left the floor without taking their children with them...they provided the opprotunity that the abductor used to take Madeline. This makes them half responsible for that happend. It's like saying, "Oh, yeah, there is a pool in the backyard without a cover or fence, and my 5 year old is out there alone with no one watching her, but it's ok...nothing bad will happen." Do I need to tell you how many times this statement has been proven tragically wrong? These are children we are talking about...not pets or full grown adults. They don't know how to protect themselves, and when you have responsibility for a child (parent, relative, babysitter, etc.) you have to protect that child not only from others, but from themselves. The "Nobody could have known what would happen" argument doesn't hold water. We can't see the future, we can't know it, and it's a matter of choice in the end. Are you willing to bet on the fact that nothing bad will happen to your children while you go out of the building for breakfast? If you are, then you bear some responsibility for the bet if it goes sour...because you made that choice. The future isn't predictable, and humans only have one life...it's far better to plan for the worst and prevent against it. And your argument that "People do far worse things and still have their kids" doesn't apply to anything...the law isn't perfect, and it never has been. The government and social workers can't observe every parent at every hour of the day. Doesn't make it right, but it's reality. I hope they find Madeline alive...but it's a well known fact that for every hour after the kidnapping, the chances of that diminish rapidly. It's now been 2 weeks. If she manages to live through this, she will be the exception, not the rule. I hope she is the exceptionI think you're misunderstanding me, I'm not condoning what they did, I'm saying I can understand why they did it and how they probably found themselves lolled into a false sense of security that the area was safe. I am aware that a child is 100% percent a parents responsibility but I also think there is such a thing as being over-protective and I think one needs to put things into perspective. You can't keep a child wrapped in cotton wool all their lives, because at some point they will come into contact with the real world. You said 'he never could have abducted her had her parents protected her, like they are supposed to do." I don't agree with this at all. This is like saying if a child gets abducted, it's the parents fault, if a child wonders of in a super market, this is the parents fault. This isn’t the case at all. Children have a mind of their own and no matter how much people say 'I never take my eyes off my children' there will always be a time where a child gets lost in a shop for example and it's not down to how much a parent protects a child. A parent can only do their best, and in this case the parents made an awful mistake and I'm sure the guilt will stay with them until the day they die, whether Madeleine is found or not. They do not deserve to have their children taken away from them and I think it's mad to suggest such an idea. Also, according to what I've heard, it looks as though whoever took Madeleine wasn't just a random opportunist, he (or even she) had been watching the family and had pinpointed Madeleine to take, which means, s/he would've taken Madeleine whether or no sh |
Killer Queenie 18.05.2007 14:09 |
<b><font color=009966>?Freya? wrote:CMU HistoryGirl wrote: I have to disagree, Freya. You may think your friends, or your aunt or uncle are not bad parents, but it only takes 30 seconds for a child to be abducted, or 30 seconds from them to hurt themselves. I'm not trying to absolve the abductor of responsibility...he/she needs to be caught and punished. But I am saying that he never could have abducted her had her parents protected her, like they are supposed to do. They NEVER should have left the floor without taking their children with them...they provided the opprotunity that the abductor used to take Madeline. This makes them half responsible for that happend. It's like saying, "Oh, yeah, there is a pool in the backyard without a cover or fence, and my 5 year old is out there alone with no one watching her, but it's ok...nothing bad will happen." Do I need to tell you how many times this statement has been proven tragically wrong? These are children we are talking about...not pets or full grown adults. They don't know how to protect themselves, and when you have responsibility for a child (parent, relative, babysitter, etc.) you have to protect that child not only from others, but from themselves. The "Nobody could have known what would happen" argument doesn't hold water. We can't see the future, we can't know it, and it's a matter of choice in the end. Are you willing to bet on the fact that nothing bad will happen to your children while you go out of the building for breakfast? If you are, then you bear some responsibility for the bet if it goes sour...because you made that choice. The future isn't predictable, and humans only have one life...it's far better to plan for the worst and prevent against it. And your argument that "People do far worse things and still have their kids" doesn't apply to anything...the law isn't perfect, and it never has been. The government and social workers can't observe every parent at every hour of the day. Doesn't make it right, but it's reality. I hope they find Madeline alive...but it's a well known fact that for every hour after the kidnapping, the chances of that diminish rapidly. It's now been 2 weeks. If she manages to live through this, she will be the exception, not the rule. I hope she is the exceptionI think you're misunderstanding me, I'm not condoning what they did, I'm saying I can understand why they did it and how they probably found themselves lolled into a false sense of security that the area was safe. |
deleted user 18.05.2007 14:32 |
Thank you Freya, what I think is, yes, the McCanns made a mistake in leaving a three-year old alone and no, they'll never do it again. But some of the people pointing the finger at those parents are hypocrites. A great deal of parents will leave their children alone to enjoy some private time, on their holiday (or not) alone. And they, like the McCann family, make preparations to do this sort of thing, family-friendly complex with security, pick a villa in full view of all the restaurants close by, one of which the parents were eating at and checking up on the children every half hour. They were horrifically unlucky and I do genuinely hope for her safe return as do many others despite what QZ's resident 'comedian' may think. Yes a thread dedicated to Maddie will hardly make a difference but so many people can sympathise with the family, those who are parents or young siblings or cousins. It's foolish to say people don't care. I also think that people will be very careful about leaving their children again. |
deleted user 18.05.2007 14:37 |
I really cannot believe the finger-pointing to the parents. They hardly left them to roam free. They shut all the windows, doors, LOCKED them; they were BROKEN INTO!! Hardly as if someone came by and plucked Maddie from her bed as easy as that. And as I say the McCanns took precautions. It turned out the precautions weren't enough and they'll never do this again. They definitely shouldn't be deemed unfit parents. This is punishment enough. |
Killer Queenie 18.05.2007 14:41 |
<font color=brianJM>RollingBowieQueen wrote: I really cannot believe the finger-pointing to the parents. They hardly left them to roam free. They shut all the windows, doors, LOCKED them; they were BROKEN INTO!! Hardly as if someone came by and plucked Maddie from her bed as easy as that. And as I say the McCanns took precautions. It turned out the precautions weren't enough and they'll never do this again. They definitely shouldn't be deemed unfit parents. This is punishment enough.Amen. |
AspiringPhilosophe 18.05.2007 22:53 |
I'm disturbed that so many people think it's ok to leave children alone for that long, while they LEFT THE BUILDING...all kids under the age of 3, no supervision. Yes I understand you can't protect them forever, and when they are old enough you let them start taking their lumps...it's the only way they learn. But at that age they can't protect themselves, and it's your JOB as a parent to protect them. Sorry if that means your social life dies for about 15 years...but that's what baby sitters/daycare is for...you made that choice when you had kids. I guess I'm just going to chalk it up to teenagers who don't know any better about being a caregiver/parent, and hope that things change. |
Freya is quietly judging you. 19.05.2007 04:19 |
CMU HistoryGirl wrote: I guess I'm just going to chalk it up to teenagers who don't know any better about being a caregiver/parent, and hope that things change.Yeah, I'm obviously just stupid because I don't have kids. Yeah, that must be it. |
Killer Queenie 19.05.2007 05:42 |
CMU HistoryGirl wrote: I'm disturbed that so many people think it's ok to leave children alone for that long, while they LEFT THE BUILDING...all kids under the age of 3, no supervision. Yes I understand you can't protect them forever, and when they are old enough you let them start taking their lumps...it's the only way they learn. But at that age they can't protect themselves, and it's your JOB as a parent to protect them. Sorry if that means your social life dies for about 15 years...but that's what baby sitters/daycare is for...you made that choice when you had kids. I guess I'm just going to chalk it up to teenagers who don't know any better about being a caregiver/parent, and hope that things change.I'm not denying that what they did was wrong - yes they should have know better than to leave the child alone. But they were pretty sure that nothing could of happened to her at the time. No-one is a perfect parent - we are only human after all. Look how many other children have been abducted over the years. Many of them were a lot older than Madeleine. But what you've got to remember is that young children are easily bribed with things like "I've got sweeties" or "I know your mummy and daddy, come with me". We may never know who snatched her, but whoever it was must have had some form of connection with her - like he has been watching the family or summat. You can't always be there for your children. The parents may have been nearby - it wasn't as if they had abandonded her for christs sake!! The main thing is, her parents admit they shouldn't have left her - but the apartment they were staying in must have boasted that the security was top notch - otherwise why else whould her parents have left her there?? |
magicalfreddiemercury 19.05.2007 08:59 |
<font color=0099FF>Killer Queenie wrote:The children were only 2 and 3 years old. By all reasonable standards, they were just babies. Top-notch security can't prevent a child of any age from getting hurt because s/he's been left alone in a room. Being 50 yards away - in a separate building, dining - cannot provide parents with vital sensory details. Their child could have been crying in pain or fear but the parents couldn't possibly know.CMU HistoryGirl wrote: I'm disturbed that so many people think it's ok to leave children alone for that long, while they LEFT THE BUILDING...all kids under the age of 3, no supervision. Yes I understand you can't protect them forever, and when they are old enough you let them start taking their lumps...it's the only way they learn. But at that age they can't protect themselves, and it's your JOB as a parent to protect them. Sorry if that means your social life dies for about 15 years...but that's what baby sitters/daycare is for...you made that choice when you had kids. I guess I'm just going to chalk it up to teenagers who don't know any better about being a caregiver/parent, and hope that things change.I'm not denying that what they did was wrong - yes they should have know better than to leave the child alone. But they were pretty sure that nothing could of happened to her at the time. No-one is a perfect parent - we are only human after all. Look how many other children have been abducted over the years. Many of them were a lot older than Madeleine. But what you've got to remember is that young children are easily bribed with things like "I've got sweeties" or "I know your mummy and daddy, come with me". We may never know who snatched her, but whoever it was must have had some form of connection with her - like he has been watching the family or summat. You can't always be there for your children. The parents may have been nearby - it wasn't as if they had abandonded her for christs sake!! The main thing is, her parents admit they shouldn't have left her - but the apartment they were staying in must have boasted that the security was top notch - otherwise why else whould her parents have left her there?? No, parents cannot be with their children 100% of the time and accidents do happen when parents are within inches of their kids. But twist this situation a bit - what if the girl fell off the bed and hit her head on the nightstand? They didn't know until they came back to find she'd bled to death. Would you not hold the parents responsible then... even though they were ONLY 50 yards away? It seems the argument against laying some blame on the parents comes from a warped notion that we're not holding the kidnappers accountable. No one has said that. What's been said is that it's clear the poor choices from these parents made things that much easier for the bastards who took their little girl. |
The Real Wizard 19.05.2007 11:25 |
CMU HistoryGirl wrote: I'm disturbed that so many people think it's ok to leave children alone for that long, while they LEFT THE BUILDING...all kids under the age of 3, no supervision.Note that all the people in this topic with this belief are 18 or under, while most of the ones who disagree are adults who have children of their own. All I can hope is that these teenagers aren't going to be the ones who get knocked up in the near future. |
sparrow 21754 19.05.2007 11:34 |
"I guess I'm just going to chalk it up to teenagers who don't know any better about being a caregiver/parent, and hope that things change. " and there you have it. as CMUHistorygirl said, it was their choice to have the kids. people dont realize once a child is born, its pretty muc hall about the kid from then on. goodbye social life for at least the next 15 years. yes there will be small windows of time where you can go out and be with friends, but at least have some kind of supervisor for them! kidnappings happen all the time. i dont know why they make such a big deal out of this little girl. it sucks, its sad, and i really hope shell be alive and for the most part well, or as fatty said (i think it was fatty), hope that if she is dead that it was quick and painless. it sucks to say that but it is a reality check. well i think again i ended up repeating what everyone else said so um...yeah *walks out* |
brian-harold-may 26643 19.05.2007 11:37 |
Freya it sounds as though you have a very liberal attitude which is (no offence but i cant think of another way to say it) pretty namby Pamby. obviously the main focus at the minute is trying to get the maddie back, however, we wouldn't have to worry about that had the opportunity to take maddie not been presented on a plate to this disgusting peadophile, who does need to be punished. I am only 17 but i have to say, i cannot believe anyone would leave a child alone like that. when you have a child, you (the parent) come second pretty much all of the time. And that is the way it should be. a kid cannot fend for themselves and needs guidance. at this moment i feel deep, very deep, sympathy for little maddie. I have a strange feeling that when( or realisticly IF) she is found her parents wont get her back anyway. That poor poor little girl. |
AspiringPhilosophe 19.05.2007 14:07 |
<b><font color=009966>?Freya? wrote:That's not what I said. I don't have kids either, for your information. But I'm also a lot older than most of you here. I said I was blaming it on age and inexperience of the posters here...I'm not calling you stupid, I'm just saying you aren't experienced or mature enough to comprehend the situation fully. Don't put words in my mouth.CMU HistoryGirl wrote: I guess I'm just going to chalk it up to teenagers who don't know any better about being a caregiver/parent, and hope that things change.Yeah, I'm obviously just stupid because I don't have kids. Yeah, that must be it. You may think you are mature as teenagers...I thought I was too when I was that age. But as I've gotten older, I realized I didn't know shit about shit as a teenager. You will come to that realization someday too. Thanks for the back up, MagicalFreddieMercury |
deleted user 19.05.2007 14:37 |
CMU HistoryGirl wrote:Forgive me but, now this is just sounding patronising. I'm aware that as a teenager I still have a lot of growing up left to do but I also believe most of us on this board are mature enough to be entitled to an opinion. It's sad that a thread starting out as a place for people to express their sympathy for the family of Madeleine McCann and hope of the little girl's safe return has turned into yet ANOTHER teenager-bashing thread, mixed up with cynics expressing their views of false sympathy and arguements about the McCann's unfit parenting. What makes you think you know anymore about parenting than any 'immature inexperienced' teenager here? You may of may not have worked with young kids or be around them a lot but so have a lot of teenagers on this thread.<b><font color=009966>?Freya? wrote:That's not what I said. I don't have kids either, for your information. But I'm also a lot older than most of you here. I said I was blaming it on age and inexperience of the posters here...I'm not calling you stupid, I'm just saying you aren't experienced or mature enough to comprehend the situation fully. Don't put words in my mouth. You may think you are mature as teenagers...I thought I was too when I was that age. But as I've gotten older, I realized I didn't know shit about shit as a teenager. You will come to that realization someday too. Thanks for the back up, MagicalFreddieMercuryCMU HistoryGirl wrote: I guess I'm just going to chalk it up to teenagers who don't know any better about being a caregiver/parent, and hope that things change.Yeah, I'm obviously just stupid because I don't have kids. Yeah, that must be it. We are simply expressing opinions, sorrow about Madeleine's abduction, hopes for her safety and her family. No-one asked for an 'interesting everyone under the age of 18 thinks such-and-such and all the mature people think the opposite. Let's just hope none of you become parents.' style arguement. Yes with the benefit of hindsight it was wrong to leave Madeleine alone as she is very young. But only with the benefit of hindsight. If nothing had happened it would have gone unreported just like the millions of other cases when responsible parents leave their kids alone in the safest surroundings possible. |
Freya is quietly judging you. 19.05.2007 15:08 |
I agree with you 100% Tessa. @CMU HistoryGirl, Thank you for belittling me, it's most appreciated. I think your use of the 'I'm older, so I'm right' argument is a bit old, however when I'm your age (that grand old age of 24!) I will be sure to use it in order to establish power. As Tessa said, we are entitled to our own opinions, regardless of age. Who knows, in a few years maybe my opinions will change and I'll agree with you when I've learnt some of life's marvellous lessons. Anyway, I know your view, you know mine, I think it's time we agree to disagree. I'm sure we can both agree that it would be lovely if little Madeleine can be found safe and hopefully unhurt. Although, the chances of that happening seem quite low. |
AspiringPhilosophe 19.05.2007 15:54 |
This is the last thing I will say in my defense, as it's obvious that anger has been roused and logic and anger do not mix. I was not belittling anyone here, I was not saying you were not entitled to your opinions, and I was not using the "I'm older, so I'm right" argument. I was pointing out that as you mature (and there is a vast difference between physical age and maturity) you begin to have a deeper understanding of things, different points of view on things, and your opinions and ideas change. This doesn't always happen for the better, but the change is unavoidable. Everyone is entitled to their opinions, and that's what I was doing on this board, expressing my opinion on the situation and exercising my right to disagree with others. When I tried to enter into a calm, logical debate, obviously I stepped on some toes. I apologize if anyone thought I was belittling them, as this was not my intention. I was merely pointing out, as neutrally as possible, that when you are older and more mature your ideas about things will change. This put people on the defensive, which is why a debate about it now is pointless. Maybe I do sound patronizing, but it's the truth. As time goes on, you grow and you change. It's only a fool who thinks they don't. You don't have to know what the changes will be, you simply have to admit that you are fully aware that you are going to change. As emotions have been raised, I will leave this thread now. I hope that Madeline is found (contrary to what people seem to think on this thread) |
Killer Queenie 19.05.2007 16:40 |
All we can do is sit, wait and hope. Hope that the Portuguese police find the sick person who took Maddie. Hope that Maddie is found safe and alive. |
deleted user 19.05.2007 16:54 |
Exactly. What seems to be a good sign is that the police in charge are holding out hope that she is alive. I personally think everyone over there is doing extremely well, the family, the police (I mean to say, they are not used to this kind of crime at all) and the media, with any luck the moment Maddie is spotted she'll be recognised. |
Freya is quietly judging you. 20.05.2007 17:22 |
@ CMU HistoryGirl.. I am honestly not wanting to start an argument here, I just want you to understand, after giving a point of view on a subject, to then have somebody effectively say to you 'your opinion doesn't count because you're too young' is a little irritating. I'm sure you didn't mean it like that but that's how it came across. I'm not denying as a teenager I still have a lot of growing up to do, but I don't think this should mean my views are taken less seriously. I think you should accept that some people, teenagers or not, will share my opinion and it doesn't render them hopeless parents. Also, for a final time, I will say, I am not saying I condone Madeleine McCann's parents leaving her, I'm just saying I don’t blame them for what’s happened. Anyway, no hard feelings and that. We've strayed from the topic enough without me going off on one, I feel. :) |
deleted user 23.05.2007 04:02 |
I'm sick of hearing about the kid. I know it's sad, but every year lots of children dissapear in Portugal. They dont have all this noise around the case like Madleine. Thats not fair. This is only becaus she's not Portuguese and is a tourist. It's all about money for the tourism. Anyway, I do not really believe it, but I hope that she is arriving well to her parents soon. |
sparrow 21754 23.05.2007 11:56 |
<font color=CC0000>Queen Mab wrote: I'm sick of hearing about the kid. I know it's sad, but every year lots of children dissapear in Portugal. They dont have all this noise around the case like Madleine. Thats not fair. This is only becaus she's not Portuguese and is a tourist. It's all about money for the tourism. Anyway, I do not really believe it, but I hope that she is arriving well to her parents soon.hmm....not sure to many people would want to tour in a place that steals children all the time :-p |
deleted user 24.05.2007 07:33 |
Sparrow wrote:I can see by your threat that you have never benn in Portugal before and you probabily will never be.<font color=CC0000>Queen Mab wrote: I'm sick of hearing about the kid. I know it's sad, but every year lots of children dissapear in Portugal. They dont have all this noise around the case like Madleine. Thats not fair. This is only becaus she's not Portuguese and is a tourist. It's all about money for the tourism. Anyway, I do not really believe it, but I hope that she is arriving well to her parents soon.hmm....not sure to many people would want to tour in a place that steals children all the time :-p Actually we portuguese cannot complain of much criminality. With all that confusion about the case people thing that Portugal might be like South Africa or something and that's not true at all. Just, these things happen everywhere, that's all. Lots of children disappear in Portugal, like lots of children disappear in England or Germany or what you want every year. I only said it is unfair for the other children that disappear because they dont seem to deserve the same efforts that the police is having for Madleine. I know money is need, but it is unfair anyway! |