| Mr. Scully 14.02.2007 03:54 |
As most of you know, I have a certain site that deals with Queen autographs, especially fakes - link. Now I've been getting A LOT of threats from dealers of fake autographs recently. They want to sue me, to cut my legs off, to force ebay close my account etc. etc. Could any lawyer browse my site thoroughly and let me know if there's anything illegal there? I tried to write all accusations as "my opinion only" but I may have overlooked something. Thanks in advance. (Btw. it seems like "my lawyer will call you" is a common sentence in the USA, something like "how are you" in other countries... :-) |
| Serry... 14.02.2007 04:53 |
You've used images of their fakes without their kind permissions! ;) You should write to Brian about that - he seems to be against of the selling autographs' business. |
| Mr. Scully 14.02.2007 05:16 |
I can't write to Brian if I claim on my site that the fan club faked autographs :-) Without any doubt Brian would support the fan club, not me... |
| Serry... 14.02.2007 05:31 |
Just show him tickets to WWRY with his fake autographs - and he's yours :) Put everywhere on the site something like "Webmaster makes no fortune out of recognizing fake and real autographs, everything written on this site is personal opinion of webmaster, final judgement about authenticity can be stand only by musicians themselves or the court, bla-bla-bla" - you wrote about it in other words though... Remove word "fake" - name them "suspicious"... I don't know... I just help this thread to stay on the top in the Serious forum :) I'm not sure if someone can (and will) sue for the such things. |
| onevsion 14.02.2007 06:08 |
Hmmm.... interesting... law student here... not (yet) a lawyer though) :-) My first thougts would be that I really don't think you have to worry about the threats of autograph dealers. THEY actually are the ones who should worry.. (committing fraude by selling fake autographs) BUT...on the otherhand... If I where them I would defend myself by saying that it is contumely (dunno if that's the correct word... in The Netherlands it's called "smaad" ) that you are accusing the dealers of committing fraude (by putting their ads marked as fake on your website and naming their names in the "hall of shame" gallery) The question here is not who is doing the correct thing (cause we all know YOU are) but which rights prevail. OK, you have freedom of speech, but does that freedom of speech also mean you have the right to accuse the autograph dealers of selling fakes, committing fraude if you like, (regardless wether you are telling the truth or not) OR is that contumely behaviour? I'm really not an expert on these kinda things, but I think putting a disclaimer on the website could be a thing to consider. ("this site is for informational purposes only, expressing my opinions....blablabla..") Something like the text you already did put online: "My only goal is to help you recognize genuine signed Queen items from fakes. I don't sell autographs, I'm not a dealer, I have no profit from this website (the google ads help to pay for the web hosting). I'm just an angry Queen fan who is disgusted by the amount of fakes that are for sale on various sites, especially on eBay. I want to persuade you to ignore any certificates, I want to show you differences between genuine and fake autographs, I want to get rid of all the dealers of fake signatures!" Hope it is of any help. Good luck with your websites. I think you are doing an excellent job! |
| pittrek 14.02.2007 06:10 |
Martine, pritelska rada : Fuck 'em all ! You are doing NOTHING againts czech laws and NOTHING againts international treaties - at least with the autograph website :-) |
| Mr. Scully 14.02.2007 06:12 |
Thanks for your post, Ducksoup. Indeed, I will put a disclaimer in the bottom to make sure everybody understands what it's all about. I know accusing them of faking is not 100% legal but saying "I think this one is fake" should be OK even in the USA :-) One guy (who wrote me about "cutting your fucking balls off) also claims to be a friend of Roger... nice friends this Roger has :-) pittrek - taky se prilis neobavam, ze by na me Interpol vyhlasil zatykac kvuli takovehle picovine :-) |
| Gr8 King Rat 14.02.2007 08:32 |
Mr. Scully...i have a question. How long have you been a collector of Queen autographs? |
| Mr. Scully 14.02.2007 08:57 |
I'm not a collector of Queen autographs, I have only those I've got personally :-) But I've been "studying" Queen autographs for the past 7 years or so. |
| Benn 14.02.2007 10:11 |
Mr. Scully, You may be better off just having a section of the site that is titles "What I Believe To Be Fake Signatures". You can then upload images and add web links, but don't put up any captions or commentary against any of them. This way, you are not *directly* accusing them of anything, but the inferance is there for anyone that cares to look. Then, in another section of your site, you couls have a "Genuine Signatures" section and then go to town explaining the difference between the real and the fake, but not making actual reference to the other section. Anyone then can make a comparison IF THEY CHOOSE, but the crucial thing is that you have not named or accused anyone directly. It *could* be argued that you are slandering specific dealers, but if they are hiding behind a pseudonym, they really can't complain. |
| Erin 14.02.2007 10:38 |
Well, somebody needs to call those assholes out on ebay. It's obvious that ebay doesn't care whether or not the signatures are fakes. I've tried reporting fakes before to no avail. |
| bigV 14.02.2007 10:50 |
Martin, would you be interested in a scan of an autograph by Roger on a Bulgarian flag. I think you saw it in Budapest. It's unusual (I think!), because Roger drew a smiley face next to his signature. V. |
| bigV 14.02.2007 10:53 |
Sorry, when I posted the above message I hadn't noticed the "Your signed items" section. When I get it scanned I'll post it :) V. |
| Gr8 King Rat 14.02.2007 11:51 |
I had someone call and threaten me once after I called him out on a few of his fake sigs. He was selling a lot of fake stuff, mostly Queen. I believe his ebay ID was mcdode, or something like that. He lives in Long Beach CA. |
| Penetration_Guru 14.02.2007 14:55 |
Ah, Americans - they think they can sue people in Europe. If anyone actually managed to sue yous you, just let them know that Brian May, Roger Taylor & John Deacon will be called as witnesses... |
| YourValentine 14.02.2007 16:21 |
I would not be too worried about law suits. Mainly when people who announce they will file charges are unable to write a single correct sentence. If you get threats I recommend to forward them to abuse@theprovider because you do not have to take this from people who make money from fakes. It's not really a surprise that they try to "strike back" but I would think you are not doing anything illegal. |
| Mr Faron Hyte 14.02.2007 19:36 |
Mr. Scully wrote: Indeed, I will put a disclaimer in the bottom to make sure everybody understands what it's all about. I know accusing them of faking is not 100% legal but saying "I think this one is fake" should be OK even in the USA :-) One guy (who wrote me about "cutting your fucking balls off) also claims to be a friend of Roger... nice friends this Roger has :-)You might want to point out to people like that, that making threats of physical harm via the internet is a crime - at least in the U.S. of A. - and that they should expect a call from your lawyer :-) |
| Sebastian 14.02.2007 21:31 |
The only risk I see is if you mistakenly label "fake" an authentic autograph, in which case you'd be committing tort (libel, to be more precise). But as long as you're absolutely sure... |
| Mr Faron Hyte 14.02.2007 23:06 |
There's a significant difference though - he can state that, in his opinion, an autograph someone is selling is not authentic without libeling the seller if he does not go so far as to allege that the seller is knowingly attempting to pass off a known forgery as the genuine article to an innocent buyer i.e. attempting to knowingly perpetrate a fraud. He can just say "based on reasons x, y, and z, I don't think Seller Smith's autograph is genuine" and leave it to his readers to reach their own conclusions about the seller's intent. |
| Saif 14.02.2007 23:28 |
Penetration_Guru wrote: Ah, Americans - they think they can sue people in Europe. If anyone actually managed to sue yous you, just let them know that Brian May, Roger Taylor & John Deacon will be called as witnesses...You have to pay the witnesses in WWRY tickets. That's their internal currency. |
| Mr. Scully 15.02.2007 02:16 |
Sebastian wrote: The only risk I see is if you mistakenly label "fake" an authentic autograph, in which case you'd be committing tort (libel, to be more precise). But as long as you're absolutely sure...Yes, of course it's possible that I might label fake as genuine and that's why I have decided not to issue any kind of certificates at all. Mr Faron Hyte - good point. I will rewrite the ebay section later today... |
| pow wow 15.02.2007 03:36 |
On your site put a question mark after the word Fake as you do if you believe an item is genuine, thus making it a question to the viewer rather than a statement of fact. Advertisers use this tool a lot to skirt around legal issues. |
| Sebastian 15.02.2007 09:58 |
Mr Faron Hyte wrote: There's a significant difference though - he can state that, in his opinion, an autograph someone is selling is not authentic without libeling the seller if he does not go so far as to allege that the seller is knowingly attempting to pass off a known forgery as the genuine article to an innocent buyer i.e. attempting to knowingly perpetrate a fraud. He can just say "based on reasons x, y, and z, I don't think Seller Smith's autograph is genuine" and leave it to his readers to reach their own conclusions about the seller's intent.Yes, it's correct that stating that an autograph (or recording, etc) is fake doesn't necessarily mean the seller is being considered a crook; but, as far as I know, Martin could be accused of defamation even if he's merely "implying" so. It'd all depend on how manipulative and convincing those "lawyers" are ;) |
| Micrówave 15.02.2007 12:04 |
Mr. Scully: You have nothing to worry about. As a couple people have correctly pointed out, in order to bring suit against you, they would have to proove that their autographs are real, which would take either (1) the actual signor or (2) the signor's representative to testify on the autograph dealer's behalf. The chance of that happening is about 5% Now, let's factor in international trade laws. And also that you can't sue somebody for slander or libel over the internet very easily without it getting very costly for the one brining suit. Are these guys making $100,000/year selling Freddie fakes? I doubt it. SOLUTION: 1. Publish their letters on your site right next to their fakes. Include their phone numbers and addresses. 2. Subscribe to a gay porn magazine to their address. Some of these dirtball mags are only $10 a year.** Well worth it if you ask me. 3. Start using their email address on "chain e-mails" you receive while carefully removing yours. 4. You know those African princes that have 50million they'd like to split with you? Again, give them email addresses, phone numbers, addresses, etc. They really like more than one way to get ahold of you. 5. Call a suicide hotline, act really depressed, give 'em his phone number, then get emotional and hang up. I once received a package from "Grandstand Sports". Apparently I had bought a Men At Work T Shirt from them a couple of years previously. Anyways, someone with my name ordered some crap and they accidentally sent it to me. When I saw the signature on the Pete Sampras tennis ball, I decided to keep everything and tell them to F-off! Since I didn't order it, legally I was allowed to dispose of the merchandise. I played tennis with the ball, since it's not even close to the racquet that Pete signed for me personally five years earlier. They are rats. Nothing more. (** or so I hear) |
| Mr. Scully 15.02.2007 12:18 |
Micrówave - LOL @ gay porn magazine :) Actually I did have this idea before but never used it in real life :) Time to do it I guess :) |
| Sebastian 15.02.2007 12:20 |
Micrówave wrote: 2. Subscribe to a gay porn magazine to their address. Some of these dirtball mags are only $10 a year.** Well worth it if you ask me. (** or so I hear)Yeah, right ;) |
| Serry... 15.02.2007 13:20 |
Hall of shame -> eBay sellers Dobrý žert, Martin! ;) |
| Mr. Scully 15.02.2007 13:21 |
Yep, I have just rewritten the Hall Of Shame section and added a disclaimer in the bottom of the site... that should be more than enough :) |
| radio_what's_new 15.02.2007 13:35 |
Mr. Scully wrote: As most of you know, I have a certain site that deals with Queen autographs, especially fakes - link. Now I've been getting A LOT of threats from dealers of fake autographs recently. They want to sue me, to cut my legs off, to force ebay close my account etc. etc. Could any lawyer browse my site thoroughly and let me know if there's anything illegal there? I tried to write all accusations as "my opinion only" but I may have overlooked something. Thanks in advance. (Btw. it seems like "my lawyer will call you" is a common sentence in the USA, something like "how are you" in other countries... :-)Ducksoup and I both study law, and I can agree with the things he told. There is one more thing I would like to add. When people scream: "My lawyer will call you" they do this mostly because THEY KNOW they don't have a strong case at all. You shouldn't be too worried about it. As long as you don't receive a summon there is nothing to worry about at all. And please keep in mind that these persons who sell these fakes will have to go to a lawyer themselves if they want to send a summon. This will cost them hundreds of Euro's and I am sure they don't want to spend money on it....They only try to fear you. Hope it helps, keep up the good work. |
| Mr. Scully 15.02.2007 16:14 |
Thanks. I'm not worried at all after I changed the headlines on my site and added the disclaimer. I'm more curious about the fucker who claimed to be Roger Taylor's friend. Other dealers seem to trust him, they keep on telling me "RT will take care of it" etc. Even if it's true, I somehow doubt Roger would be interested in some arguments about fake autographs... |
| Erin 15.02.2007 16:20 |
Mr. Scully wrote: Even if it's true, I somehow doubt Roger would be interested in some arguments about fake autographs...I guarantee he wouldn't give a shit..;-) |
| Mr. Scully 16.02.2007 02:01 |
Erin wrote:Unless they were signed on naked female bodies ;-)Mr. Scully wrote: Even if it's true, I somehow doubt Roger would be interested in some arguments about fake autographs...I guarantee he wouldn't give a shit..;-) |
| Erin 16.02.2007 11:11 |
Mr. Scully wrote: Unless they were signed on naked female bodies ;-)That's about right! LOL |
| vadenuez 16.02.2007 14:46 |
Mr. Scully wrote: I'm more curious about the fucker who claimed to be Roger Taylor's friend. Other dealers seem to trust him, they keep on telling me "RT will take care of it" etc. Even if it's true, I somehow doubt Roger would be interested in some arguments about fake autographs...He won't give a shit. And if he does, well, cheer up... you could end up meeting Mr. Taylor in person (and he might give you a real autograph) ;-) |
| Sebastian 16.02.2007 17:20 |
> you could end up meeting Mr. Taylor in person (and he might give you a real autograph) ;-) I think he already has, there are some pix in his website. |
| thomasquinn 32989 18.02.2007 08:51 |
Ducksoup wrote: (dunno if that's the correct word... in The Netherlands it's called "smaad" )'Slander' in English. THEY'd have to prove that the autographs they are selling are *not* fake then, though, I think. you are accusing the dealers of committing fraude (by putting their ads marked as fake on your website and naming their names in the "hall of shame" gallery) The question here is not who is doing the correct thing (cause we all know YOU are) but which rights prevail. OK, you have freedom of speech, but does that freedom of speech also mean you have the right to accuse the autograph dealers of selling fakes, committing fraude if you like, (regardless wether you are telling the truth or not) OR is that contumely behaviour? I'm really not an expert on these kinda things, but I think putting a disclaimer on the website could be a thing to considerA disclaimer stating that these verdicts are not absolute, etc. "only a guideline", "personal views", "author accepts no liability for use of these indications", etc. would be a very good idea. Also, as was previously advised, rephrasing "fake" as "suspicious" or "of undetermined nature" would get you off anything they could possibly throw at you (which is very little to begin with; empty threats, more like)! |
| Mr. Scully 18.02.2007 14:38 |
Ducksoup or ThomasQuinn - could you please have a look at QueenAutographs.com (I updated it on Thursday) and let me know (via email or here on the board) your personal opinion about the current statements on the site? Is the disclaimer enough or should I avoid using the word "fake" at all? I just want to be 100% sure... |
| Voice of Reason 2018 20.02.2007 07:05 |
I'm not a lawyer either Mr Scully, but I am the Voice of Reason! It might be worth making a distinction between saying that someone is selling a fake (which they could be doing unintentionally) and saying that they actually faked the signatures themselves. You just need to be careful about anything that you cannot prove. Cheers, The Voice |
| Mr. Scully 21.02.2007 05:06 |
Voice of Reason 2006 wrote: I'm not a lawyer either Mr Scully, but I am the Voice of Reason! It might be worth making a distinction between saying that someone is selling a fake (which they could be doing unintentionally) and saying that they actually faked the signatures themselves. You just need to be careful about anything that you cannot prove. Cheers, The VoiceYes, you're right. But I think I have already rewriten it on my site. Now I basically say "I would not buy an autograph from these sellers" and I mark their auctions as "IMO fake". I don't even suggest they might have faked the signatures themselves... Funny, yesterday another seller theatened that he is "friend of Mack" and "in contact with Brian May"... and he was selling really BAD fakes. Incredible how pig headed some people are... |
| The Real Wizard 21.02.2007 11:15 |
Mr. Scully wrote: Now I basically say "I would not buy an autograph from these sellers" and I mark their auctions as "IMO fake".I don't think you should recant at all. On the front page, simply state that everything on this website is the opinion of the webmaster. Saying "IMO fake" looks weak, and will diminish your strong arguments against fake autographs. Stand firm, Martin! |
| onevsion 21.02.2007 18:02 |
<b><font color = "crimson"> ThomasQuinn wrote:Ducksoup wrote: (dunno if that's the correct word... in The Netherlands it's called "smaad" )'Slander' in English. THEY'd have to prove that the autographs they are selling are *not* fake then, though, I think. |
| Mr Faron Hyte 23.02.2007 11:06 |
Sebastian wrote: Yes, it's correct that stating that an autograph (or recording, etc) is fake doesn't necessarily mean the seller is being considered a crook; but, as far as I know, Martin could be accused of defamation even if he's merely "implying" so. It'd all depend on how manipulative and convincing those "lawyers" are ;)There is no prophylactic measure strong enough to prevent anyone from being the target of a lawsuit. Nuisance lawsuits are filed every day and are dismissed every day. The only sure way for Mr. Scully to avoid any possibility being sued is to not have the website. He obviously doesn't want to do that, so the best he can do is take reasonable measures and make his statements in a responsible way. Lawyers and the filing of lawsuits are not inexpensive, which is generally enough of a prohibition to prevent most people without some kind of serious claim from filing, but there is no measure he can take short of not having the website that can stop someone from filing a weak or even baseless lawsuit today that will be throw out of court the next day. There is no magic word, no silver bullet, no deflector shield that will completely protect anyone from being named in any lawsuit. There's also no total protection from being struck by lightning or crushed by a meteor, but we generally take the best protective measures we can and get on with our lives because its very unlikely that we're going to be crushed or struck. And so it is with Mr. Scully's website. |
| onevsion 25.02.2007 03:20 |
Hello Mr Faron Hyte, Saw in your profile you are from Aruba. Did you visit the Q+PR show? Please contact me. My e-mailadress is in my profile. Hope to hear from you! |