| Queen Archivist 07.12.2006 10:51 |
I just read some comments written to me, politely, by Vlad, and I thought it was worth putting up for wider debate. This point he raises has emerged several times before on my threads here and it intrigues me quite a bit. So here is what Vlad wrote... Ironicly, I will reply to Vlad's comments mostly IN CAPITAL LETTERS, which he hates, in order that my responces are separate from Vlad's. Apologies to Vlad's ear holes. Dear Greg, I'll never forget the day I bought the first edition of your book "QueenLive". I paid a substantial amount of money for it, even though it was second-hand and I had to walk quite a bit to the shop where I bought it. The book vastly broadened my knowledge of Queen history and my horizons as a Queen fan. I think that it's a tremendous work and after all these years it's still a prized item in my collection. In other words, I admire you a great deal. GB: THANK YOU. VERY NICE TO HEAR THAT. I APPRECIATE IT. I just need to ask you one simple question: Why do you feel this compulsive need to shout at us every time you show up at this board? Surely it's common knowledge that typing in uppercase is generally considered to be bad manners on the Internet and even in business correspondence. GB: THIS IS COMMON KNOWLEDGE IN THE INTERNET COMMUNITY, YES. TRUE. IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT BOTHERS ME REMOTELY, AND IT IS NOT 'LAW', AS IT WERE, IN MY WORLD. I AM NOT SHOUTING. THIS IS MERELY HOW YOU HAVE CHOSEN TO PERCEIVE IT. THIS IS PECULIAR TO YOU, AND MANY OTHERS. IT IS THE RESULT OF YOU TRAINING YOURSELF TO BE THIS WAY AND TO REACT THIS WAY. YOU DO IT SUBJECTIVELY, HOWEVER, NOT ALL THE TIME. I MEAN, YOU DO NOT GET PAIN IN YOUR EARS WHEN YOU READ THE NEWSPAPER HEADLINES EACH MORNING, OR ROAD SIGNS, OR WHEN YOU SEE 'ESSO' OR 'BP' PETROL STATIONS. I RESPECT THAT MANY PEOPLE FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE ME USING CAPITAL LETTERS, BUT THAT IS MY WAY. I ASK THAT YOU RESPECT MY PREFERENCES AS I DO YOURS. I do not percieve that you are whispering, or talking calmly or louder than average, or quieter than average, when you write in small letters, nor do I imagine Brian May shouting VERY VERY LOUDLY at me when he sends an email saying, 'GREG, CAN YOU BE HERE AT 11 TOMORROW?' This is all a bit weird to me. Silly, even, but I can see how some people think that way. Vlad: Nothing personal, it's just that reading the caps really hurts both my eyes and my feelings. READING CAPITAL LETTERS AND IT ACTUALLY AND PHYSICALLY HURTING YOUR EYES, IS A BIT STRANGE IN MY OPINION. I WONDER IF THE MEDICAL WORLD HAS RECOGNISED THIS???? PERHAPS THERE WILL BE HUGE LEGAL CLAIMS AND COURT CASES SOON WHERE PEOPLE WILL SUE W.H. SMITH AND WATERSTONES AND WOOLWORTHS FOR CAUSING PAIN TO THEIR EYES ALL THESE YEARS WITH THEIR HUGE HIGH STREET SIGNS. HOW INTERESTING WOULD THAT BE??? IT'S A GREAT CONCEPT. BRIGHT LIGHT, LASERS, MARTIAN HEATRAYS, POINTED STICKS, RED-HOT POKERS, ACID, SAND, GRIT, DIRTY WATER, OBSCENE VISIONS, YES... I CAN SEE HOW THEY WOULD HURT EYES, BUT NOT CAPITAL LETTERS. THAT IS MY HONEST RESPONCE. IF THEY HURT YOUR FEELINGS TOO, THAT IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE CONDITIONED YOURSELF TO THAT PARTICULAR THING. RACIST COMMENTS AND NASTY PEOPLE WHO BAND THEM ABOUT, HURT MY FEELINGS, AND THAT TOO IS BECAUSE OVER THE YEARS I HAVE EVOLVED THAT WAY. I HAVE BECOME CONDITIONED TO BE AFFECTED ADVERSELY BY THOSE THINGS. IT DID NOT HAPPEN WITHOUT MY KNOWLEDGE. I CHOSE TO BE HURT BY SUCH THINGS, AS I CHOSE TO LAUGH AT MONTY PYTHON AND NOT BE OFFENDED BY IT. I LIKE TO EMPHASIZE CERTAIN EXTRACTS OF MY WRITING, BY REINFORCING CERTAIN WORDS IN THEIR BIGGEST AND MOST IMPOSING FORM... I.E. BY OFFERING CERTAIN THINGS IN CAPTIALS. Example: I was walking down the street last night when suddenly there was a MASSIVE explosion, has more impact, and is more vivid than instead writing... I was walking down the street last night when suddenly there was a massive explosion. When I write about certain imb |
| Queen Archivist 07.12.2006 10:52 |
Christ, that was a HUGE posting. The ego of some people!!!!!! |
| bohemian 11513 07.12.2006 11:13 |
Queen Archivist wrote: ..IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT BOTHERS ME REMOTELY, AND IT IS NOT 'LAW', AS IT WERE, IN MY WORLD...Always knew that you´re from outer-space... But keep in mind, it´s meteorites that make an impact on earth... and not ET´s like you! ;-) |
| Queen Archivist 07.12.2006 11:40 |
X*75. ii-+==]'';/. This will only make sense to other E.T.'s Please have your §§§±.<<~771 by next Tuesday. Ta |
| bohemian 11513 07.12.2006 11:46 |
Guess it´s time to call the "Men in Black"!?! :-) |
| Eviltwin 07.12.2006 11:49 |
^ Oh...it's greg. Hi there. (not brooks)Kinnear |
| bohemian 11513 07.12.2006 11:53 |
Hi honey... or should I say my "Little Miss Sunshine"? ;-) |
| Micrówave 07.12.2006 12:01 |
Queen Archivist wrote: I do not percieve that you are whispering, or talking calmly or louder than average, or quieter than average, when you write in small letters, nor do I imagine Brian May shouting VERY VERY LOUDLY at me when he sends an email saying, 'GREG, CAN YOU BE HERE AT 11 TOMORROW?'So what did Brian want? |
| Nathan 07.12.2006 12:02 |
I understand you perfectly Greg. There's nothing wrong with using caps. It may look as though you're shouting but if you were I think we'd tell by what you were saying. |
| Serry... 07.12.2006 12:13 |
Why not QUEEN ARCHIVIST then? |
| bohemian 11513 07.12.2006 12:38 |
¼Microwave wrote:He wanted him to clean up the kitchen and mow the lawn... as usual!Queen Archivist wrote: I do not percieve that you are whispering, or talking calmly or louder than average, or quieter than average, when you write in small letters, nor do I imagine Brian May shouting VERY VERY LOUDLY at me when he sends an email saying, 'GREG, CAN YOU BE HERE AT 11 TOMORROW?'So what did Brian want? |
| Maz 07.12.2006 13:10 |
"I RESPECT THAT MANY PEOPLE FEEL DIFFERENTLY ABOUT PEOPLE LIKE ME USING CAPITAL LETTERS, BUT THAT IS MY WAY. I ASK THAT YOU RESPECT MY PREFERENCES AS I DO YOURS." While I've learned to ignore your use of CAPS as a sign of your indifference to internet, to be honest, your argument is a bit stupid. Basically, this comes across as "You have etiquette I don't like, so respect my right to visit you and ignore it." Isn't that like burping at the dinnertable and saying, "It may be socially unacceptable to you folks, but respect my right to do it anyways"? |
| Bohardy 07.12.2006 13:47 |
The trouble is that upper-case letters, when used for multiple continuous sentences and paragraphes, ARE harder to read. The absence of ascenders and descenders means your eyes and brain have to concentrate that little bit harder on differentiating the letters and words. I'm sure the extra width in the letters and words also means that our eyes can't focus on longer words and groups of words in one 'go', and therefore the reading speed is slowed down even further. Roadsigns, corporate logos and newspaper headlines are all generally either single words or simple statements. It's an entirely different situation to writing long streams of text in capital letters. I understand why you use caps Greg, but please appreciate that they are harder to read. |
| Raf 07.12.2006 13:51 |
I know this is the wrong thread, but I can't be assed to look for the old one... Greg, I wanna send you a X-mas card. |
| The Fairy King 07.12.2006 14:09 |
Hey! There's this thing called E-MAIL. It's free! Use it! |
| Poo, again 07.12.2006 16:03 |
Someone needs to get a life. |
| 7 seas of Rhye 07.12.2006 17:31 |
Account Deleted wrote: Someone needs to get a life. |
| john bodega 07.12.2006 17:39 |
I actually like it when GB talks in capitals, it reminds me of the T-Rex from qwantz.com. You know - the only funny webcomic. |
| Queen Archivist 07.12.2006 19:00 |
Zeni... Basically, this comes across as "You have etiquette I don't like, so respect my right to visit you and ignore it." Isn't that like burping at the dinnertable and saying, "It may be socially unacceptable to you folks, but respect my right to do it anyways"? **** NO. It's not like that. Burping at the dinner table is rude and revolting, whereas this CAP LETTS thing is merely a style decision in the context of plain old everyday communication. If it physically repulsed people, caused them actual pain, put them off their food, upset them, or provoked any such reaction, then i would stop. i don't think the two things are comparable. However, Bohardy has made some points which are extremely interesting and deserve proper thought. I'm pondering them........ |
| Queen Archivist 07.12.2006 19:13 |
Bohardy, I'm interested in what you said... The trouble is that upper-case letters, when used for multiple continuous sentences and paragraphes, ARE harder to read. GB: I presume you mean that if English is your first language... hence my Egyptian example. I never really thought about that before but I guess that's true, yes. The absence of ascenders and descenders WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? means your eyes and brain have to concentrate that little bit harder on differentiating the letters and words. I'M INTRIGUED BY THIS. CAN YOU ELABORATE PLEASE. I'm sure the extra width in the letters and words also means that our eyes can't focus on longer words and groups of words in one 'go', and therefore the reading speed is slowed down. IS THIS PROVEN? I GUESS ALL THIS STUFF HAS BEEN RESEARCHED THOROUGHLY, YES? I FURTHER GUESS THAT IT MIGHT BE THE KIND OF THING THAT SOME STUDENTS MIGHT LEARN AS PART OF THEIR COURSE. I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW MORE ABOUT THIS STUFF; WHAT THE HUMAN EYE/BRAIN CAN READ MOST EASILY, AND WHY AND HOW, ETC. BOHARDY, HAVE YOU STUDIED ALL THIS STUFF? IF SO, FOR WHAT END? Roadsigns, corporate logos and newspaper headlines are all either single words or simple statements. It's an entirely different situation to writing long streams of text in capital letters. GB: Not sure about the 'entirely' different bit. These signs 'could' be all small letters, but in large print. But they're not. Why don't they use small letters if human eyes deal with that form better, and more quickly, when speed-reading while driving is so crucial? I understand why you use caps Greg, but please appreciate that they are harder to read. GB: As I say, I'd like to know more about these things. I have my own views on what is enjoyable and what are the easiest forms to read, but perhaps I should re-think. |
| Bohardy 07.12.2006 19:33 |
I'm no real expert in writing systems, although I did a degree Linguistics at Uni, so I should have an idea... I suppose I'm talking more in layman's terms, and am espousing mainly my own views rather than the results of any scientific studies. But I have read somewhere (and it seems a fairly obvious point really) about ascenders and descenders (the bits of letters (or the letters themselves) that protrude either above or below a font's midline - j, p, g, h, q, f, b, d etc) facilitating quick word recognition. In capitals, all letters are of the exact same height. Imagine that all the letters were completely fuzzy and indecipherable, and you'd just have a continuous bar or fuzzy ink. But in lower case, that continuous bar of fuzzy ink (or pixels...) would have some bits that stuck out below or above the bar, and you would start to recognise some familiar patterns. 'jelly' or 'belly' for example would be quite easy to pick out. Am I making sense? The thing about the extra width is purely my own idea. I don't think I've read that anywhere. But it makes logical sense to me. We don't actually read one word at a time normally, but are actually registering a few at a time as we progress through a sentence. To me it just makes sense that that's harder to do if the letters are that bit farther apart. I've just found this on Wikipedia, which is incredibly relevant to your point about speed-reading when driving: "Ascenders, together with descenders, increase the recognizability of words. For this reason, British highway road signs that must be read quickly no longer use all capital letters". This apparently comes from Sampson, Geoffrey. Writing Systems: A linguistic introduction, pp. 94–95. Stanford, California: Stanford University Press, 1985. Yes, of course this stuff has been studied thoroughly, but I'm working more from intuition and hazy recollection than informed knowledge of relevant research. And I think this whole thing is only relevant to people who use the Roman alphabet, rather than just people who have English as their first language. I suppose the reason that your Egyptian friend insisted on the addresses being written in capitals (how was Egypt by the way? I had the time of my life there a few years back) is because upper-case letters are more familiar to people who don't use the Roman alphabet - the original Roman alphabet does not include the minuscule (a fancy word for lower-case, as opposed to majuscule) forms of letters, and beacuse they are simpler and less florid than lower case, making the letters easier still to recognise to somebody with a different alphabet. |
| Queen Archivist 07.12.2006 20:01 |
Excellent stuff Bohardy. That is all fascinating to me. I'm going to look into this further. Thanks. |
| Bohardy 07.12.2006 20:07 |
No probs. This has piqued my interest in this kind of thing again too. |
| Donna13 07.12.2006 20:39 |
I think I am more interested in the Dinosaur Comics. Ha. The Utahraptor with his mouth open really wide looks just like my cat. Very cute with his leg up in the air - and those little arms. I have a couple of things to say about Greg's HUGE initial post. I think capitals ARE easier to read. Maybe that is just my brain. Also, I like how Greg goes into MASSIVE detail. It gets funnier with each line. As for the burping, well, it just depends on who you are having over for dinner I think. Edit: Or is that whom? Let me just clarify that I am not used to being around burping people, really, at least not since I was a child and my younger brothers were entertaining us in their special way at the dinner table, but I just think that not all burps would cause the same reaction. Would they? And besides, I think it is only polite to NOT correct a person, when they are a guest and it is in regards to something minor (or even possibly cute or silly), such as using capital letters. |
| Maz 07.12.2006 23:04 |
Queen Archivist wrote: Burping at the dinner table is rude and revolting,This is merely how you have chosen to perceive it. link As that link shows, in some places burping is welcome. link A bit over the top, but I think it gets to my point. Etiquette is defined by those within the culture, not outsiders. Same idea applies to internet etiquette, or that catchy term "netiquette." |
| Queen Archivist 08.12.2006 05:36 |
Yes Zeni, a point well made. Good one! |
| bigV 08.12.2006 07:06 |
Both Zeni and Bohardy raised valid arguments, which I might've made myself... if I had the time and the patience to do the research :D
I'l give you another example, Greg. On his website, Brian May always responds in bold. Why? Precisely because he (or rather JenX - the site's webmistress) wants to differentiate Brian's writing from the general content of the site. He might have chosen to type his responses in italics or underlined, or even in a distinctive colour. But can you imagine if his responses were all in uppercase?
Every culture and/or sub-culture has its own peculiar norms of behaviour. The Internet is a sub-culture in itself. There's the shorthand, also known as "txt spk". And then there are the little niceties. When I'm chatting on IRC, ICQ or another instant messaging service I don't bother with capital letters in the beginning of the sentence, or with full stops at the end. Because it's chat and it's a whole lot more relaxed. But typing in caps is reserved only for cases when I'm really upset or even angry about something and I want the person on the other end of the line to know that I'm angry. It's part of the so-called netiquette. If we were talking on the phone I would simply have to raise my voice. But online we don't have that luxury and that's why it's generally accepted that uppercase means that one is shouting.
Another example. Picking your ear is something ordinary isn't it? But to a deaf man, using sign language that would be a grave insult. It would mean that you are mentioning the man's mother in a very unpolite manner to say the least.
So, again. If one wants to become a part of a specific sub-culture, then one must abide by the etiquette of that sub-culture.
And I'll make the point about using the quote BB Code. Just copy the text that you want to quote and then paste it between these two markers:
[ QUOTE ] [ / QUOTE ]
Like this:
Vlad, you can train your eyes NOT to be affeted by capital letters, just as you train your ears, if you wish to, NOT to be hurt by bad words, foul language, Cliff Richard songs, etc.Yes, I suppose I could. But most of us Internet users have grown accustomed to reading in sentence case. And yes, it is a psychological reaction when I consider uppercase to be shouting, but in real life I have a psychological reaction to sarcasm. I dislike it with a passion. I personally am hurt by the crap that people talk, MUCH MORE than by the appearance of writing on a page, and its form. People who say "proply" and "probly" and "pacificly" and "fing" and "fink" and "summink" and "nuffin" and "feef" when what they really mean is..."properly" and "probably" and "specifically" and "thing" and "think" and "something" and "nothing" and "thief" That kind of thing GENUINELY hurts me and pains my ears and brain. I hate it.I agree about that. Many people on QOL have complimented me on my command of the English Language. And that makes me very proud - to receive such a compliment from native speakers, considering that I am not a native speaker. Even so, it's just as frustrating to me to read poor spelling (for example "their" instead of "there") as it is to you. It's even more frustrating to read spelling errors in my native language, but that's a whole different story altogether. Best regards, Vlad |
| iGSM 08.12.2006 07:23 |
Heh, what are the haps, my friend? |
| bigV 08.12.2006 07:26 |
More on the subject:
Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht frist and lsat ltteer is at the rghit pclae.Food for thought. Vlad |
| Bohardy 08.12.2006 13:07 |
I was gonna make that very same point Vlad, but I couldn't see how it comfortably fitted in with my position, so I avoided it... |
| Crezchi 08.12.2006 17:05 |
Greg, i heard you were fired by Brian, is this true? Serious question by the way. |
| john bodega 08.12.2006 23:48 |
"just as you train your ears, if you wish to, NOT to be hurt by bad words, foul language, Cliff Richard songs," I know you're just trying to make a point.... but Cliff Richard's music actually operates on a carrier wave frequency of such high irritation and offensiveness, even deaf people go "WHAT THE FUCK!?!?" when they hear it. No one can train themselves to enjoy Cliff Richard, unless they start wearing beige and watch copious levels of Oprah. |
| Wilki Amieva 11.12.2006 07:14 |
Queen Archivist wrote: X*75. ii-+==]'';/.Indeed. |
| Stoner 02.11.2007 22:13 |
Wow. This may be an old thread but I find it fascinating. I've been aware of an old standard on the internet, or a taboo about ALL CAPS when typing but I thought I was the only one who thought it LAUGHABLE, JUVENILE, and UTTERLY REDICULOUS. Come on, people should be able to type in whatever characters they wish, just like different people have different handwriting styles. I personally hate reading typed words. I like handwritten notes better, but people say that they can't read MY handwriting at all. Alot of people have trouble reading other people's handwriting. It's just part of life, I mean we wouldn't think of imposing some international standard for handwriting on society, would we? If the nutter who wrote and said that ALL CAPS hurts his eyes and his feelings, I would hate to see what MY handwriting would do to him! |
| Lester Burnham 03.11.2007 00:46 |
GoOd ThInG yOu BuMpEd ThIs, Or ElSe We WoUldN't HaVe EvEr KnOwN yOuR pOsItIoN oN cApItAl LeTtErS. ~*~*~*~*~ ThAnKs AgAiN, fRiEnD!!!! ~*~*~*~*~ |
| Stoner 04.11.2007 05:07 |
Heh. Are you being sarcastic? |
| Darren1977 11.11.2007 19:37 |
Greg. Fair enough point as regards the english language and all that bollocks but are you privy to any more info regsrding anthology releases etc. or perhaps another concert re-release.Thank you in advance |
| Rick 12.11.2007 03:47 |
My Mini Mercury wrote: Heh. Are you being sarcastic?No, Lester is always being damn serious. Please ask me the same question. |
| Stoner 14.11.2007 16:11 |
<font color=blue>Rick wrote:I LIKE THIS THREAD. THIS IS ONE OF MY MOST FAVORITE TOPICS. GLAD I FOUND IT, OTHERWISE I WOULD HAVE HAD TO EVENTUALLY START A THREAD OF MY OWN.My Mini Mercury wrote: Heh. Are you being sarcastic?No, Lester is always being damn serious. Please ask me the same question. |
| Fenderek 04.12.2007 08:20 |
Queen Archivist wrote: IALSO... capital letters are more universal. More people around the world can understand English written in CAPITALS, than they can in small writing.That's only partially true- as someone pointed out, maybe that's relevant to people who use different alphabets, but the rest... definitely not! It's like English who think that non-English speakers (who DON'T speak English) will understand them when they speak louder and slower... If you do speak English (even if it's not your mother tongue) it DOESN'T MATTER if letters are big are small. Same rules apply as for English native speakers- and as Bohardy stated, that is slightly more difficult to read. I also find reading capital letters more difficult and I even find myself skipping through paragraphs- and sometimes that way one can miss a valid point... Greg, you're writing a lot, emphesising a lot, as if trying to ensure that your point is put across as precisely as possible. Am I right? If so- NOT writing in capital letters could also be a way to get the same result. For me, anyway. |
| Mr Mercury 06.12.2007 06:58 |
Queen Archivist wrote: I personally am hurt by the crap that people talk, MUCH MORE than by the appearance of writing on a page, and its form. People who say "proply" and "probly" and "pacificly" and "fing" and "fink" and "summink" and "nuffin" and "feef" when what they really mean is..."properly" and "probably" and "specifically" and "thing" and "think" and "something" and "nothing" and "thief" That kind of thing GENUINELY hurts me and pains my ears and brain. I hate it.Greg, you forgot the word "fot" (thought), commonly used in such luminary programs like Eastenders.... example - Character a - "Was it you who dunnit?" Character b - "Yeah" Character a - "I fot so." Anyway, I think most people on here have got so used to your style of posting that it doesnt really bother us anymore. After all, they are just words on a screen at the end of the day. |
| emrabt 06.12.2007 09:14 |
Queen Archivist wrote: Christ, that was a HUGE posting. The ego of some people!!!!!!LMFAO I've never had a problem with people writing in uppercase, not bothering to check spelling annoys me. |