| Mr. Scully 02.10.2006 09:25 |
I've noticed that a lot of collectors claim that they don't share their recordings on QueenZone because they are afraid that the QueenZone community could share them as lossy MP3's. That is, of course, BULLSHIT - LIE - STUPID EXCUSE. The collectors tend to offer weird excuses because it looks better if they say "we won't share that because you would spread it in MP3's" instead of "we won't share because we don't want to", right? The truth is that the collectors don't share because (1.) they don't want to or (2.) they are forbidden to or (3.) they don't have time/connection for it or (4.) they keep rare recordings for special trades only. Which is, IMO, perfectly okay!!! It's democracy, nobody should be forced to anything. And after all, the big collectors on QueenZone indeed never share anything - and if they do, it's only because that recording is not rare anymore. Or to improve their reputation :-) I'm one of the collectors and I defend them where possible but in the same time I absolutely hate hypocrisy. And I know some of my opinions might sound arrogant or unpleasant but at least they are honest... (And I do know that MP3's are pain in ass. I don't trade them, I'm not happy at all when I (scarcely) receive them in a trade. But I see absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be shared. Some people simply prefer MP3's, some prefer FLAC. MP3's are often more than sufficient - I don't really need to have the 5ive version of WWRY in FLAC or WAV or on original CD). |
| frank39 02.10.2006 09:50 |
"But I see absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be shared. Some people simply prefer MP3's, some prefer FLAC. MP3's are often more than sufficient - I don't really need to have the 5ive version of WWRY in FLAC or WAV or on original CD). " You took the words right out of my mouth. |
| Sithmarauder 02.10.2006 10:02 |
I have no problem with MP3s being shared but I think that people who want MP3s would benefit if they learned how to download and convert to MP3 on their own rather than asking someone to torrent them. There are many sites with great shows in FLAC that they can download and convert for personal use. I learned how to convert and I have a larger collection for personal listening because I learned. If people are going to remain ignorant to FLAC, they may never get the great shows shared on other sites in FLAC. To me, that's biting your nose to spite your face. I realize that there are those that can't down load FLAC due to small hard drives or whatever other reasons there may be , but there will always be good people In QZ that can help them out so they can enjoy these shows too. |
| dysan 02.10.2006 12:34 |
The problem is the twats who put the MP3's (or worse) onto CDs and sell them on eBay. Even some factory pressed bootlegs are from shared lossy formats. Not good. Not good at all. |
| L-R-TIGER1994 02.10.2006 12:36 |
I agree there and it's very good to have an opinion from an excellent collector on this never-ending discussion,I'd rather have Bophutaswana'84 or New Zealand'85 in mp3 than Wembley'86 in flac |
| brENsKi 02.10.2006 12:39 |
i would like to add another point to this interesting debate. yes, many of us have both mp3s and flacs..(i will on a 10mb connection happily download both) personally, i prefer the convenience and space-saving of mps3 over flacs...and if burned to cd nicely...most (please note use of word MOST) live shows don't sound any better in flac...once a source has deteriorated degraded beyond first/second gen tape...the hiss and crap will more than eradicate any "perceived quality gain" from using flac - unfortunately, the old addage - "shit in = shit out" still stands however, this ain't my main point....some people ask for mp3s because of internet download restrictions - which come in all shapes and sizes 1. time they can actually be on the net 2. bandwidth/cap restrictions on downloading placed by the isp 3. inconvenience of location...someone on here trying to get a gig that's being seeded will depend on the "seeder" having their pc switched on....well as we are all very global far-flung...some pcs will be off when we go to bed...hence a dramatic reduction in seeding flacs will take at least 5 times as long to download, and occupy five times as much hard drive space...add to that the fatc they users will be using five times as much of their "isp download cap"...and you can understand why some almost beg for mp3s...so please don;t go too hard on people when they ask...mind you, some of em could ask in a nicer fashion... |
| Mr. Scully 02.10.2006 12:45 |
Indeed - for example my ISP has set a data transfer limit of 2 GB per month for me - you get the point. Anyway, my main point wasn't about differences between MP3 and FLAC. My main point was about the hypocrisy of certain Queen collectors on QueenZone. |
| TheGame 02.10.2006 13:12 |
So why does the Queen community have such a bad reputation? If a taper ask a certain show not shared as mp3, shouldnt we respect that? When the taper refuse to share his recording because he dont want it to end up as mp3 on sites as this, then there is something wrong. And why do people want NZ 85 or Bophutaswana'84 instead of Wembley? Just because it's rare? Is it a good show? Lets see these two were shared by one of the excellent collectors which have some of them. When you got them, then there is always new rare items you want, and so it goes on. I think its also very easy for excellent collectors with many rare shows on audio and video to say this reputation dont bother them. Ofcourse it doesnt. They have many shows most people can dream of already, so why care... Yeah, i mixed it all up now. I just needed a blowout, cous people here will never learn this, and this way we will miss many new discoveries. Too bad the attitude cant be changed, its all very sad really. |
| Jjeroen 02.10.2006 13:29 |
Mr. Scully wrote: Indeed - for example my ISP has set a data transfer limit of 2 GB per month for me - you get the point. Anyway, my main point wasn't about differences between MP3 and FLAC. My main point was about the hypocrisy of certain Queen collectors on QueenZone.Personally I don't know any people that say they don't share here because they are afraid of stuff being converted to lossy formats... About the sharing of mp3's in here...? Well you can read my honest opinion in one of the other 25 topics about this. (The RT DVD download topic) |
| frank39 02.10.2006 14:10 |
dysan wrote: The problem is the twats who put the MP3's (or worse) onto CDs and sell them on eBay. Even some factory pressed bootlegs are from shared lossy formats. Not good. Not good at all.Totally right: I bought Vienna 86 on ebay, beautiful 6 side booklet, silver pressed double cd: Checked it with TAU: result was a mpeg source. Sic! And BTW: you can download the first and last concert of the Queen Jazz tour from my website: in both flac and mp3 |
| Mr. Scully 02.10.2006 14:28 |
"If a taper ask a certain show not shared as mp3, shouldnt we respect that?" Yes, we should! But that's not what's happening here on QZ. Here the anti-mp3 requests are made by collectors who don't record or share anything. "And why do people want NZ 85 or Bophutaswana'84 instead of Wembley? Just because it's rare? Is it a good show? Lets see these two were shared by one of the excellent collectors which have some of them. When you got them, then there is always new rare items you want, and so it goes on." That's true :-) Many people want something only because they heard it's "rare". |
| Jjeroen 02.10.2006 14:30 |
Queen Mum Archivist wrote:Love, you missed the point. ThomasQuinn IS sharing! We were talking about collectors that REFUSE to share anything in here because they are afraid people will turn it into MP3.jeroen wrote: Personally I don't know any people that say they don't share here because they are afraid of stuff being converted to lossy formats...Well honey... then i.e. just take a look at this "Mastrubator" called Thomas Quinn! link Quinn IS sharing and just posts an honest an honourable request that IF you on your turn share this with someone else that you do NOT do so in MP3 but also lossless, like he did in the first place. MP3 for personal use is fine with him - and ofcourse rightfully so. Unfortunately the climate in Queenzone is as such that his honest and honourable request will most likely NOT be honoured. |
| Jjeroen 02.10.2006 14:35 |
Btw: I found that I DO know somebody that SAYS he/she is NOT sharing out of fright of conversion to lossy. But I wonder if this person WOULD realy share anything if the climate would have been different. (Martin's point of this topic, I believe? ;-) |
| Mr. Scully 02.10.2006 14:45 |
jeroen wrote: Btw: I found that I DO know somebody that SAYS he/she is NOT sharing out of fright of conversion to lossy. But I wonder if this person WOULD realy share anything if the climate would have been different. (Martin's point of this topic, I believe? ;-)Yes :-) and I'm sure there are more of them... |
| Jjeroen 02.10.2006 15:01 |
I think the title you chose for this topic is slightly misleading! ;-) Maybe you should call it 'The return of the annual who's the biggest undiscovered hypocrit on Queenzone threat part 63'! ...but then Barb would probalby have to moved you to another section of the board :-) |
| popy 02.10.2006 15:27 |
"The collectors tend to offer weird excuses because it looks better if they say "we won't share that because you would spread it in MP3's" as far as i know i don't know any MP3 player like iPod reading flac or other. i download flacs or other lossy formats and I convert them to MP3 to ear them on my iPod, untill a MP3 player that can play flac is out in the market |
| Sithmarauder 02.10.2006 15:36 |
popy wrote: "The collectors tend to offer weird excuses because it looks better if they say "we won't share that because you would spread it in MP3's" as far as i know i don't know any MP3 player like iPod reading flac or other. i download flacs or other lossy formats and I convert them to MP3 to ear them on my iPod, untill a MP3 player that can play flac is out in the marketThere is at least 1 player that supports FLAC, It's made by Cowan called I audio. I purchased it last year soley to listen to these concerts in FLAC and MP3. |
| Jjeroen 02.10.2006 15:37 |
popy wrote: as far as i know i don't know any MP3 player like iPod reading flac or other. (1) i download flacs or other lossy formats... (2)(2) This is the whole issue, dear: flac is NOT lossy, as a matter of fact it is totally lossLESS! (1)That's because MP3 players and iPods are for people that don't care about listening to only half the sound that the musician initially chose to put to record plus a lot of high-frequency noise. I found out someone intended to give me an iPod or MP3 player as a gift - just in time to talk that rediciolous idea out of her head. lol. I'm sorry - but I would not want to be found dead with an MP3-player stuck in my ear... Nah, seriously. I realy cannot understand how people can listen to MP3's... Especially on headphones, which makes it even worse! Are my ears realy SO much better then other people's?? |
| Sithmarauder 02.10.2006 16:16 |
This player suppors FLAC and WAV link |
| Kenneth E. Sandvær 02.10.2006 17:07 |
I think FLAC and other lossless formats are great. Then I can have good quality and convert it to anything i like for my portable player. If ppl wanna share lossless format its good, but more important I think is to get copies with better quality. Cos many concert shared is in bad quality even if they where in lossless format. But I just downlaod what I like and share if i get anything to share. When I look for other bands like Led Zeppelin, Guns n Roses, Rolling Stones, Pink Floyd, Dire Straits, I find a lot of stuff in really nice quality compared to what I find of Queen, but lately I have found more and more interesting Queen things on the net :D |
| The Real Wizard 02.10.2006 23:04 |
Mr. Scully wrote: I've noticed that a lot of collectors claim that they don't share their recordings on QueenZone because they are afraid that the QueenZone community could share them as lossy MP3's. That is, of course, BULLSHIT - LIE - STUPID EXCUSE.I wish I could agree with you, but I can't. What I'm talking about usually comes from people who aren't exclusively Queen collectors, but rather people who trade for other bands' recordings, and happen to have a few Queen ones. I've had plenty of experience dealing with Zeppelin/Beatles/Yes/Floyd collectors. More than once I've been denied a trade because they were afraid their Queen recordings would become mp3s - and one time it was a new US '76 show. The mentality of this website has spread. People from QZ are contacting collectors of other bands for trades, and this pro-mp3 attitude has become our reputation. Many, many collectors have told me this when I've contacted them for trades... and they think I'm just like the other Queen fans who have contacted them in the past, so they refused to trade their Queen. But they had no problem offering their other stuff! They know that the vast majority of Zeppelin/Floyd/Yes collectors scowl at anyone who is pro-mp3, so one or two mp3 collectors are of no threat to their communities' established quality standards. Martin... We Queen collectors are not taken seriously in the outside collecting world at all, and it's time that we pull up our socks and accept this fact - and do something about it! In the last several years, only THREE new sources of Queen shows have showed up at Dime and TTD. But there are plenty of new Beatles, Zeppelin, Floyd, Sabbath, AC/DC, Yes, and countless others showing up all the time. Why? Because people who collect those bands have quality standards. It makes perfect sense. It's blatantly obvious. Trust me... there are plenty of Queen recordings out there - certainly many US '76-80 shows - and QZ is the reason why they're not shared. Honestly, can you think of a better reason? People know that Queen are one of the most important live bands ever, so it's certainly not because of a lack of demand. People can stick up for QZ all they want, but it will only be from people who aren't talking to people in the outside collecting world. The majority of Queen collectors trade only Queen. Queenzone's pro-mp3 policy is the reason why many new recordings are kept under wraps. It's up to you if you want to believe me or not. This is the truth as to why I choose not to share at Queenzone. I refuse to make new sources or upgrades available, only for them to become mp3. As I said earlier... if Queenzone enforced a non-mp3 policy, I would share the majority my collection here over time. At the moment, sharing FLACs here is pointless. Most people wouldn't download them, because they prefer mp3. What I'm trying to do is enforce quality standards at QZ, so that people in the wider collecting world can respect us, and feel they can trust us with their recordings. But most people here don't know how all this stuff works, and they look down on me as if I'm some kind of enemy who is snobbily looking down at them. But I agree with the rest of your post, regarding the mentality of collectors. This is simply the way it works, and not just in the Queen world. Collecting can be very serious business. There have been fights and even death threats in the Zeppelin community over unheard recordings. Most people just don't get it... |
| john bodega 02.10.2006 23:41 |
Upload everything. Then you will have everything. You'll skip months of unnecessary negotiations in the process. |
| The Real Wizard 02.10.2006 23:44 |
Zebonka12 wrote: Upload everything. Then you will have everything. You'll skip months of unnecessary negotiations in the process.And when I'm offered something rare in a trade, what will I offer them in exchange? The recording that used to be rare but everyone now has since I shared it on QZ? In a perfect world your philosophy would work, but unfortunately it doesn't work like that. |
| tgunn2760 03.10.2006 02:37 |
The truth is that the collectors don't share because (1.) they don't want to or (2.) they are forbidden to or (3.) they don't have time/connection for it or (4.) they keep rare recordings for special trades only. Thanks for being honest. I agree that sharing MP3s should not be banned. Not that I download them myself, I have no use for bootleg audios of concerts. Ditto for low quality videos. They are quick to download, so one can see if he wants a higher quality copy. I also agree with Sithmarauder that those who want MP3s should be EDUCATED AND ENCOURAGED to convert lossless formats to MP3s themselves. |
| tilomagnet 03.10.2006 06:23 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: This is the truth as to why I choose not to share at Queenzone. I refuse to make new sources or upgrades available, only for them to become mp3. As I said earlier... if Queenzone enforced a non-mp3 policy, I would share the majority my collection here over time. At the moment, sharing FLACs here is pointless. Most people wouldn't download them, because they prefer mp3.It is not ONLY that people need to understand and accept that lossless formats are the only acceptable way to distribute unreleased material. It is the whole attitude towards this material that needs to change here. It is really a great joy to share live recordings with other fans, who appreciate what they are getting. However, I've absolutely zero interest in sharing anything here where the majority of people have a "bootlegs all sound like shit anyway, so who cares whether it's lossy or not"-mentality. I just read another similar topic, where some idiot (seriously?) wanted to make people believe that mp3 encoding improved the quality of a recordings, since it basically worked like a hiss reduction. And there are tons of examples like that. I mean how can anyone expect serious collectors to share their recordings when this place is crowded with people like that? As I said I have no problems to share anything as long as I get the impression that the downloaders appreciate and really care about the shows they are getting. This involves that they preserve the quality of the recording and distribute it further in lossless formats only. We are very fortunate that we have access to all these unreleased recordings and these shows have to be treasured by us fans and preserved in the best quality possible. Unless the large majority of people accept this fact, QZ will never become a place where quality recordings are shared. |
| john bodega 03.10.2006 07:37 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:We're being hypothetical. In my hypothetical scenario, you wouldn't have been offered anything rare because it'd already be up.Zebonka12 wrote: Upload everything. Then you will have everything. You'll skip months of unnecessary negotiations in the process.And when I'm offered something rare in a trade, what will I offer them in exchange? The recording that used to be rare but everyone now has since I shared it on QZ? In a perfect world your philosophy would work, but unfortunately it doesn't work like that. Dude I wasn't being logical about it, and I wasn't factoring in human greed - it was just an observation. If everything were public domain and readily available, there wouldn't *be* trading - and you know, that would work even in an imperfect world. The reason such a situation doesn't exist is because there'd be some asshole who'd hold onto their stash :D A shame really! |
| tgunn2760 03.10.2006 09:23 |
Zebonka wrote: "We're being hypothetical. In my hypothetical scenario, you wouldn't have been offered anything rare because it'd already be up. Dude I wasn't being logical about it, and I wasn't factoring in human greed - it was just an observation. If everything were public domain and readily available, there wouldn't *be* trading - and you know, that would work even in an imperfect world. The reason such a situation doesn't exist is because there'd be some asshole who'd hold onto their stash :D A shame really! " You hit the nail right on the head. |
| john bodega 03.10.2006 11:04 |
Well if I hit any nails, it was intended to be this one : Basically... the only thing stopping us from widespread sharing of 'rare things' is ourselves, and I readily concede that people have their reasons for holding onto the stuff. Everyone has a hobby I suppose. I wasn't lambasting folks reasons for hoarding - I merely pointed out that if we were robots and had no personal vices like greed (no - greed is too strong a word, look for a weaker word here) then 'trading' wouldn't come into it, and things would just pass about freely. Anyway. |
| tgunn2760 03.10.2006 12:46 |
There is a compromise solution that is already being used to some extent: share lossy format on rapishare ONLY, and only torrent lossless. Many shows are already in MP3 format, and lower quality videos. Keep those on rapishare. There is a South American site that has most of the shows available via rapishare links. If someone requests lossy formats, they can be directed there or to other rapishare links. Shareware that converts lossless to lossy can also be uploaded to rapishare, along with instructions on how to do the conversion. This should keep everyone happy. |
| The Real Wizard 03.10.2006 13:57 |
Zebonka12 wrote: If everything were public domain and readily available, there wouldn't *be* trading - and you know, that would work even in an imperfect world. The reason such a situation doesn't exist is because there'd be some asshole who'd hold onto their stashRight. It's that asshole who is holding onto some kind of holy grail, so collectors are forced to play by his rules if they want to have any kind of a chance to even see a sample of his recording. tgunn2760 wrote: There is a compromise solution that is already being used to some extent: share lossy format on rapishare ONLY, and only torrent lossless. --- This should keep everyone happy.It would be a step ahead, but it wouldn't make everyone completely happy. But I guess we have to start somewhere! |
| Mr. Scully 03.10.2006 15:47 |
Zebonka - there's nothing like perfect world. Theoretically communism is the perfect political system. I can assure you that in reality it's the worst system ever invented, basically on the same level as Nazism. So it's safe to assume that the "100% is shared" system would be worse than the current situation. |
| frank39 03.10.2006 16:21 |
Right Sir GH, -:))) stand up for your rights,... to paarty!!! Burn all the mp3 on a huge vitual fire on QZ, so from then on all the world will feel proud and delighted whenever they enter QZ. You are a kind of Don Quichote, fighting against windmills, my dear. |
| tgunn2760 03.10.2006 17:00 |
"Right Sir GH, -:))) stand up for your rights,... to paarty!!! Burn all the mp3 on a huge vitual fire on QZ, so from then on all the world will feel proud and delighted whenever they enter QZ. You are a kind of Don Quichote, fighting against windmills, my dear." LOL...Or maybe his whole rant is just a ruse so he doesn't share his STASH. |
| tgunn2760 03.10.2006 17:02 |
"Basically... the only thing stopping us from widespread sharing of 'rare things' is ourselves, and I readily concede that people have their reasons for holding onto the stuff. Everyone has a hobby I suppose." I can't argue that they can do what they please with their files. What I am saying is that the collectors are the problem because they are keeping these files out of circulation. |
| tgunn2760 03.10.2006 17:10 |
"Right. It's that asshole who is holding onto some kind of holy grail, so collectors are forced to play by his rules if they want to have any kind of a chance to even see a sample of his recording" Are you alluding to yourself or someone else Bob? Is this "stashing" business a power trip for you, or are you pissed because another "collector" has stuff he won't share with you? You sound like a control freak. One of the teachers Roger Waters wrote about in "Another brick in the Wall"...can't remember if it's part two or three. I have a question: does anyone know if these two versions of Houston 1977 are the same? From Japanese TV broadcast - "Rock Masters" Fresh DVD transfer from a very low generation VHS tape.(from TTD) And this one: link Thanks in advance. |
| TheGame 03.10.2006 17:38 |
tgunn2760 wrote: Are you alluding to yourself or someone else Bob? Is this "stashing" business a power trip for you, or are you pissed because another "collector" has stuff he won't share with you?I just had to comment this. tgunn2760: You have now done some posts, and posting is fair enough. However, you dont seem to get the point. SirGH, have pointed out in a different post ( and quite obvious) that the trading rules is not something either him,me or any new traders have created. The rules have been created long time ago, and it was like a small snowball just getting bigger and bigger with more material available. Also, most of the rare stuff have strict restrictions, meaning "not for trade". If someone shared this, they would be banned, and the traders would keep even tighter on their items. This HAVE happend, and its not a solution in the long run. Ofcourse, if you only think 5 sec ahead of you, this is great, but not a very good solution if you think further in the future. |
| Maxxbono 04.10.2006 00:23 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:Sir GH, I am not a collector, I definately prefer FLACs over MP3 (which I do convert for my ipod), and I happily keep them knowing is the best quality available. But you know what? When I find a concert available on MP3 that is not available in FLAC, I am not greedy and I take it; only because I love Queen and because I want to listen toMr. Scully wrote: I've noticed that a lot of collectors claim that they don't share their recordings on QueenZone because they are afraid that the QueenZone community could share them as lossy MP3's. That is, of course, BULLSHIT - LIE - STUPID EXCUSE.I wish I could agree with you, but I can't. What I'm talking about usually comes from people who aren't exclusively Queen collectors, but rather people who trade for other bands' recordings, and happen to have a few Queen ones. I've had plenty of experience dealing with Zeppelin/Beatles/Yes/Floyd collectors. More than once I've been denied a trade because they were afraid their Queen recordings would become mp3s - and one time it was a new US '76 show. The mentality of this website has spread. People from QZ are contacting collectors of other bands for trades, and this pro-mp3 attitude has become our reputation. Many, many collectors have told me this when I've contacted them for trades... and they think I'm just like the other Queen fans who have contacted them in the past, so they refused to trade their Queen. But they had no problem offering their other stuff! They know that the vast majority of Zeppelin/Floyd/Yes collectors scowl at anyone who is pro-mp3, so one or two mp3 collectors are of no threat to their communities' established quality standards. Martin... We Queen collectors are not taken seriously in the outside collecting world at all, and it's time that we pull up our socks and accept this fact - and do something about it! In the last several years, only THREE new sources of Queen shows have showed up at Dime and TTD. But there are plenty of new Beatles, Zeppelin, Floyd, Sabbath, AC/DC, Yes, and countless others showing up all the time. Why? Because people who collect those bands have quality standards. It makes perfect sense. It's blatantly obvious. Trust me... there are plenty of Queen recordings out there - certainly many US '76-80 shows - and QZ is the reason why they're not shared. Honestly, can you think of a better reason? People know that Queen are one of the most important live bands ever, so it's certainly not because of a lack of demand. People can stick up for QZ all they want, but it will only be from people who aren't talking to people in the outside collecting world. The majority of Queen collectors trade only Queen. Queenzone's pro-mp3 policy is the reason why many new recordings are kept under wraps. It's up to you if you want to believe me or not. This is the truth as to why I choose not to share at Queenzone. I refuse to make new sources or upgrades available, only for them to become mp3. As I said earlier... if Queenzone enforced a non-mp3 policy, I would share the majority my collection here over time. At the moment, sharing FLACs here is pointless. Most people wouldn't download them, because they prefer mp3. What I'm trying to do is enforce quality standards at QZ, so that people in the wider collecting world can respect us, and feel they can trust us with their recordings. But most people here don't know how all this stuff works, and they look down on me as if I'm some kind of enemy who is snobbily looking down at them. But I agree with the rest of your post, regarding the mentality of collectors. This is simply the way it works, and not just in the Queen world. Collecting can be very serious business. There have been fights and even death threats in the Zeppelin community over unheard recordings. Most people just don't get it... |
| The Real Wizard 04.10.2006 10:55 |
Maxxbono wrote: Sir GH, I am not a collector, I definately prefer FLACs over MP3 (which I do convert for my ipod), and I happily keep them knowing is the best quality available. But you know what? When I find a concert available on MP3 that is not available in FLAC, I am not greedy and I take it; only because I love Queen and because I want to listen to that show on whatever quality is available. In other words better MP3 than nothing. For me, it's all about Queen and keeping the spirit alive throughout the years; and I think a lot of people here (collectors or not) are forgetting that.If it were up to me, I'd be able to fully agree with you, and anyone who says "let's have one section for mp3, and another for FLAC". But as long as there are people who won't share their rare recordings out of fear that they will be converted to mp3, then we need to have quality standards here. I don't know how else I can make this point clear to people. |
| frank39 04.10.2006 11:11 |
Do you really think, this would solve the problem? a mp3 and a flac section? What, if someone turns his flac, recieved from the flac section, into a mp3? Thats fighting against windmills, as I said. |
| The Real Wizard 04.10.2006 11:16 |
frank39 wrote: Do you really think, this would solve the problem? a mp3 and a flac section? What, if someone turns his flac, recieved from the flac section, into a mp3? Thats fighting against windmills, as I said.No, it definitely wouldn't *completely* solve the problem. It's just a partial solution. |
| YourValentine 04.10.2006 13:11 |
Bob, when I read what you write about the LedZep traders who refuse to swap with you - how weird is that? And how stupid? They do not know you, they don't even know if you visit Queenzone. How can they hold you responsible for the files that are shared on QZ? You cannot seriously expect that Queenzone changes its sharing policy just to please a couple of crazy LedZep collectors? The internet is much too big, you cannot avoid re-encoding of files that appear anywhere on the net. No compromise would make a difference to such people - no matter how many forums Richard creates. And we are talking about a small minority of people who apparently send death threats (!) to each other - sorry but these people cannot set the rules for a website like Queenzone. What really makes me sad is the hostility and lack of tolerance I see on both ends of the spectrum. This forum is for people who share the passion for Queen music but I feel like I am in an ideological war. Nobody must share anything here, it's exactly as Martin said: it's a free world and if you don't want to share, you don't need a reason. But you cannot expect a website that is used by thousands of fans to submit to your rules. Queenzone was never a trader forum, it was always a fan forum and it's great when experienced collectors help fans with advice about encoding and various formats. Maybe that is the contribution that is most needed on Queenzone. Fights don't help at all. |
| Maxxbono 04.10.2006 14:19 |
YourValentine wrote: Bob, when I read what you write about the LedZep traders who refuse to swap with you - how weird is that? And how stupid? They do not know you, they don't even know if you visit Queenzone. How can they hold you responsible for the files that are shared on QZ? You cannot seriously expect that Queenzone changes its sharing policy just to please a couple of crazy LedZep collectors? The internet is much too big, you cannot avoid re-encoding of files that appear anywhere on the net. No compromise would make a difference to such people - no matter how many forums Richard creates. And we are talking about a small minority of people who apparently send death threats (!) to each other - sorry but these people cannot set the rules for a website like Queenzone. What really makes me sad is the hostility and lack of tolerance I see on both ends of the spectrum. This forum is for people who share the passion for Queen music but I feel like I am in an ideological war. Nobody must share anything here, it's exactly as Martin said: it's a free world and if you don't want to share, you don't need a reason. But you cannot expect a website that is used by thousands of fans to submit to your rules. Queenzone was never a trader forum, it was always a fan forum and it's great when experienced collectors help fans with advice about encoding and various formats. Maybe that is the contribution that is most needed on Queenzone. Fights don't help at all.Absolutely right. Just want you all to know that if it wasn't for Queenzone and all the fantastic ppl who share in here, I would't have the change to listen to all those great shows I have. It is magical to me, to listen those concerts that I wouldn't be able to get anywhere else, and been a Queen fan for over 30 yrs, I just gotta say: Thanks to the Queenzone administrators and the fan community!!! |
| The Real Wizard 04.10.2006 15:11 |
It is well known that Queenzone is where the majority of Queen sharing happens, and it's mostly in mp3. I hope that one day you people will realize that new Queen recordings are being kept under wraps because of the lack of quality standards we have here. It's not just "a few Led Zep collectors". It is virtually EVERY collector from EVERY band who has quality standards - except for Queen. They don't want their recordings to become lossy, so therefore they don't share their goods. When you spend years talking to collectors of other bands than Queen, then maybe you'll learn how it works in the REAL collecting world. |
| Nummer2 05.10.2006 04:28 |
SirGH, in all respect, but you're talking from the view of a trader. I'm a Queen fan since 1977, and only Queenzone made it possible for me to listen to their live shows. Before I found QZ I only knew the official stuff. I can't describe how happy I am to have the possibility to download all the great stuff for free, without having to trade something in return (which I never would be able to). If there was a FLAC only policy on QZ, I doubt I would have more than 10 or 20 concerts yet – just because there would much less shares – but thanks to MP3 I have a lot more. And what's more important: I can give something in return by again sharing all those shows (almost) continuously to help spreading them. Of course I prefer FLAC files over MP3. But I doubt that all the people who share MP3 stuff just out of convenience or lack of knowledge (those are the vast majority, no doubt) would share everything in FLAC if MP3 sharing was banned. And to rely on the few traders would be ridiculously silly. I can do without some 5 or 6 rare shows that stay withheld. I am lucky with what I have already thanks to MP3. I can understand that you traders are interested in those rare shows that haven't been shared yet, but ... sorry, but ... you should have stayed away from QZ ;-) And: It's easier to change your own ways, not QZ. |
| Mr. Scully 05.10.2006 06:11 |
Bob, I don't agree with you. You're basically saying that if you shared your recordings on QueenZone, Led Zep collectors won't trade with you. That's IMHO... not true at all, if I say it politely. And as for the MP3/FLAC difference. 80% of Queen recordings we have is 3rd-4th generation at least. Each of these generations (tape -> tape transfer) is 100x worse than any MP3 conversion. I see no reason why MP3 encoding would hurt in case of an old hissy high-gen recording. If I wasn't a collector, I'm pretty sure I would have my collection in MP3 only. |
| Jjeroen 05.10.2006 09:12 |
I, personally, know I would not. And once again I refer to my words in the RT threat. The one where I mentioned the filosophie as based on my experiences with Tool and Fran Zappa forums. Which was not about collecting basically, but about improving the overal quality of this website. I'm interested in your opinion on THAT, Barb! ;-) |
| The Real Wizard 05.10.2006 11:18 |
Mr. Scully wrote: Bob, I don't agree with you. You're basically saying that if you shared your recordings on QueenZone, Led Zep collectors won't trade with you. That's IMHO... not true at all, if I say it politely.Noooo... that's not what I meant! What I'm saying is that these Zeppelin/Who etc collectors won't trade with any Queen fan because they are under the impression that their lossless recording will end up lossy here. It's got nothing to do with me personally. It's a mentality that is attributed to Queen collectors in general. Nummer2 wrote: If there was a FLAC only policy on QZ, I doubt I would have more than 10 or 20 concerts yet – just because there would much less shares – but thanks to MP3 I have a lot more.I disagree. Right now, the majority of people here see mp3 as the best format. If we had a "lossless only" policy, people would think FLAC as the best format. The amount of sharing would be about the same; only the mentality and quality of shares would be different. And: It's easier to change your own ways, not QZ.But you must understand... they're not "my" ways. It's other people who have these quality standards that we must adhere to. If I (and the rest of us) don't play by their rules, there is no chance of them trading their rare Queen recordings with us. Yes, QZ has been the place for you to get your concert recordings, and of course that's great! But consider this: There are only 2 recordings from the US 76 tour commonly available at the moment. If this website had a "lossless only" policy, I 100% guarantee you, that number would be at least 3 right now. Wouldn't you be interested in knowing if they changed up the setlist again in early 76, like they did at the Milwaukee show with Hangman and Modern Times Rock 'n' Roll? If this website banned mp3s, and the mentality shifted from lossy to lossless, I could send that collector an email to show him how things have changed, and maybe he would finally change his mind too. But these are things that non-collectors (and even some Queen collectors) simply don't understand. And besides... when throughout history has "adhering the wants of the majority" done anyone any good? It's always the outspoken voice in the minority that has prompted any kind of decent change. I'm thinking and speaking in everyone's best interests, and many people are cutting me to shreds as if I'm against them. Frank39 made the Don Quixote reference, and I see where he's coming from! |
| YourValentine 05.10.2006 14:54 |
Your post in the RT thread, Jeroen: "Agreed with barb. But we have been here before there was any sharing section on Queenzone. In the beginning people shared shome MP3's, which was fine. But over time it has become pretty clear what the side-effects are of mp3's. People even started new websites for sharing Queen to keep everything seperated. Contramovement is that the amount of lossy formates being shared in here has gone up. Logically. Similar sites to Queenzone all have taken action on this. (Eg, I visit some Tool, Zappa sites for instance which all did an active boycot on mp3. Whenever I am on those websites I realy feel sorry for Queenzone. 'We' don't give a shit about quality - while on those other sites quality is their strong point - which DEFINATELY also shows, as a result, in the quality of people that visit and the quality of their discussions!! ALSO as a result, expecially on that Tool website logically as they are still touring actively, is that more people appreciate bootlegs, take better care of the preservation of them AND get more motivated to create them themselves AND help eachother actively in making sure everybody comes up with the best possible results from a bootleg recording!! In a way that website has become more like a taping-collective (HIGH QUALITY taping-collective!) more then a sharing-the-music-community. (Though I have to admit that in general Tool and Frank Zappa attract a much much more 'intellectual' audience to begin with... They are having the exact same discussions -the serious ones- as we have, but their is SUCH a significant difference in how they approach the exact same problems. Problems with trading, with sharing, the NOT-sharing of specific items (!)... everything we in here have discussions about as well) Actually the BAND-wensites that share mp3's are very very few. Websites that focus on a particular band and their collectors all have gone over to torrents, or lossless anyway. If you want to share mp3's - leave them to the p2p sharing programms where every 'moderate' musicfan can download 'moderate' quality stuff by every artist. But QZ is a specialised BAND-website, which you'd expect to have a higher standard for appreciation of the band. Solution is very easy: do as so many websites have done before us, including the more serious trading-websites like Dime: DON'T ALLOW MP3 TO BE SHARED. It should be like this: If you want to share/download mp3 you go somewhere else. If you are looking for QUALITY you come to Queenzone. It's a snowballing mentality thing. If all of us cared about quality more it would surely benefit the quality of the whole website!" Here is my opinion: If there were such a Queen website I would surely visit there and I would like be a part of it. I registered to Pieter's trader forum but not much is happening there at the moment. If there were a chance to have a forum with a civilized discussion and people working together instead of bitching and fighting I would be thrilled to be there. But Queenzone is not that way. The history of Queenzone sharing comes from the mp3 servers and they were meant to distribute as many concerts as possible to as many fans as possible. It was not about quality or completeness. As I already said in another thread: the BitTorrent forum was initially meant for flac and not mp3 and nobody thought that one innocent rapidshare link would lead to such extensive sharing via rapidshare and similar sites (which is great, btw). But Richard is just not the person who restricts anything as long as it is not illegal and people are happy with it. Also, I just cannot imagine that on Queenzone shares would be deleted because the lineage is not specified completely in a text file or that ratios are enforced or a concert would be deleted because it was ripped off a CD-R and not a silver CD etc. It's the charm of Queenzone that its owner is maybe the most tolerant person I ever met in my life a |
| Wilki Amieva 06.10.2006 14:04 |
I agree that is better to 'encourage' lossless sharing rather to ban lossy sharing. |
| andy1962 06.10.2006 16:46 |
don't get me wrong i do like mp3's but i am amazed at what as turned up the past day or 2...many quality shows and i think today no moaning.lol.i have downloaded more today and yesterday from here than what i have downloaded in the past month so let's all keep it going and have a happy queenzone.i'm currently going through my tapes to see what i can find i have found a few that due to poor storage that are no good anymore but also some i forgot i had so i will just add them as and when i find them,hope that is ok with everybody. |
| 928 06.10.2006 17:07 |
Just DON'T convert your mp3's to Flac or other lossless formats & try to pass them off. We will know......there are proggy's that tell us!! |
| andy1962 06.10.2006 17:16 |
i have mp3's.and i have a large collection of tapes which most of were aquired not long after the shows from dealers from all over the world... possibly before you were born before mp3's and cd's when there was only reel to reel tapes and the new cassette format c60/c90/c120 of that time.i am not converting my mp3's to flac.all my recording now that say they are flac are flac and direct from my original (tapes etc)recordings i have.and not converted from my mp3's so anybody is welcome to check them out |
| The Real Wizard 06.10.2006 18:16 |
andy1962 wrote: i have mp3's.and i have a large collection of tapes which most of were aquired not long after the shows from dealers from all over the world... possibly before you were born before mp3's and cd's when there was only reel to reel tapes and the new cassette format c60/c90/c120 of that time.i am not converting my mp3's to flac.all my recording now that say they are flac are flac and direct from my original (tapes etc)recordings i have.and not converted from my mp3's so anybody is welcome to check them outAwesome, Andy... we're looking forward to whatever else you have to offer. We'll keep them coming as well. |
| andy1962 06.10.2006 18:24 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:andy1962 wrote: i have mp3's.and i have a large collection of tapes which most of were aquired not long after the shows from dealers from all over the world... possibly before you were born before mp3's and cd's when there was only reel to reel tapes and the new cassette format c60/c90/c120 of that time.i am not converting my mp3's to flac.all my recording now that say they are flac are flac and direct from my original (tapes etc)recordings i have.and not converted from my mp3's so anybody is welcome to check them outthank you.this is the way it should be.it's gonna take ages to go through everything i have,found tapes out of cases and been playing them trying to remember which show it was,tapes the kids have taped over,damaged tapes.spoke to my mother today and she has some more at her house from when i lived there it's just never ending...i think i had better find some of those famous dauwfs that every one keeps talking about.lol..... Awesome, Andy... we're looking forward to whatever else you have to offer. We'll keep them coming as well. |
| 928 08.10.2006 10:22 |
andy1962 wrote: i have mp3's.and i have a large collection of tapes which most of were aquired not long after the shows from dealers from all over the world... possibly before you were born before mp3's and cd's when there was only reel to reel tapes and the new cassette format c60/c90/c120 of that time.i am not converting my mp3's to flac.all my recording now that say they are flac are flac and direct from my original (tapes etc)recordings i have.and not converted from my mp3's so anybody is welcome to check them outI never said you did Andy m8. But i also know that some people on QZ with none or little knowledge of audio algarythms will think that if they convert "a file" and it now has a lossless extention ,such as flac ,then they will think that it now is lossless. As you know ,this is not the case. It was just a statement of general knowledge and aimed at all...not any individual. I like the before i was born crap though.I'm not far behind Fred's Birthday. Yes we remember 78's...lol |
| thunderbolt 31742 06.10.2007 05:15 |
tgunn2760 wrote: "Right Sir GH, -:))) stand up for your rights,... to paarty!!! Burn all the mp3 on a huge vitual fire on QZ, so from then on all the world will feel proud and delighted whenever they enter QZ. You are a kind of Don Quichote, fighting against windmills, my dear." LOL...Or maybe his whole rant is just a ruse so he doesn't share his STASH.If you nitwits would browse back through the Announce forum over the past couple of years, you'd see everything that Sir GH *has* shared. A fair number of low-generation, lossless recordings, to say the least, and he's always released them with the simple request that they not be converted to lossy formats. That simple request was ignored time and time again--hell, I'd quit sharing too! I listen to MP3s for personal use. 320kbps sounds good enough for me--any lower and I can hear the difference. That said, I never share the MP3s with anyone, and I never seed the MP3s on a torrent program. The shows I do continue to seed after downloading are ones that I've kept the FLACs for. Sharing MP3s is like taking a dump in the pool. Ban the sharing of lossy files here, and maybe some of those collectors who have hoarded recordings won't see this as such a sh*tty place. |
| Queenrockyou 06.10.2007 06:32 |
Hello everybody, It seems that Queenzone now have a lot of people talking to each other with being insultant, or so, and it's very constructive. I agree with some points here and there. I think wa can't say Mp3 is better quality than Flac, obviously it's not, the terms "lossy" and "lossless" are quite explicit words. I also think that the collectors who have gems here don't wat to let them go, that's a shame everybody can't benefit from these files but what can we sat about that ? Being the best collector in the world is having somrbody doesn't have, no ? So, I think it will stay as it is. I don't know the reputation of Queen collectors in the "outter world", so I rely on Bob' opinion. I think he's one the experienced collectors we can trust (but not the ony one !). So, what about flac being transformed into MP3's ? No problem with that. Only id it is for personal use. I would be quite upset to get a Mp3 gig because I think it's the only way to have this gig, whereas the concert is already shared in flac elsewhere !!! For the shapring point of view, let's have the best quality available, and everybody can transform it into Mp3 if he likes, but then the rule must be that it cannot be traded wityh anyone then. It is a simple rule, so it must be the case, right ? And to finish new Mp3 gigs to come in here, and start only viewing flac files on Queenzone, why not presenting now all the Mp3 gigs available, once for good, so that eveybody interested in Mp3 could download them and this forum could be more flac-oriented or new gigs-oriented ? What do you think about it, Bob and everybody here ? Relisting all the mp3 gigs catalogue for a start, then why not making torrents to those files, or a website that could host ALL the gigs in MP3 format ? And then I think Queenzone would be more flac-oriented, no ? It would be the last thing to share here, unless new gigs pop up here and there. Well, that's a theory of course, but... why not ? Thanks a lot. Regards, Olivier. |
| on my way up 06.10.2007 07:33 |
We should all visit a site like The traders' den. Queenzone should become a site like that one but then of course for Queen recordings only. I love Led Zeppelin very much and on that site there are lots of great recordings from Led Zeppelin(and many many other bands). People over there know what they're doing. They label their recordings and when they share something they give all the information so it is easy to identify which version it is. Lossy sharing is indeed totally forbidden!!And indeed, a collector will not be taken seriously when he defends mp3 sharing. I read complains on that site about Queen collectors several times. 'They never share anything'. I have to agree with every word sir GH says. I don't want to insult anyone but Queen fans sometimes forget there's a world outside Queen! |
| on my way up 06.10.2007 07:35 |
Maxxbono wrote:Yeah, but if we can make it even better, why hesitate? What bob tries to say: we don(t win anything by sharing lossy, we would win by sharing lossless. It's easy as that.YourValentine wrote: Bob, when I read what you write about the LedZep traders who refuse to swap with you - how weird is that? And how stupid? They do not know you, they don't even know if you visit Queenzone. How can they hold you responsible for the files that are shared on QZ? You cannot seriously expect that Queenzone changes its sharing policy just to please a couple of crazy LedZep collectors? The internet is much too big, you cannot avoid re-encoding of files that appear anywhere on the net. No compromise would make a difference to such people - no matter how many forums Richard creates. And we are talking about a small minority of people who apparently send death threats (!) to each other - sorry but these people cannot set the rules for a website like Queenzone. What really makes me sad is the hostility and lack of tolerance I see on both ends of the spectrum. This forum is for people who share the passion for Queen music but I feel like I am in an ideological war. Nobody must share anything here, it's exactly as Martin said: it's a free world and if you don't want to share, you don't need a reason. But you cannot expect a website that is used by thousands of fans to submit to your rules. Queenzone was never a trader forum, it was always a fan forum and it's great when experienced collectors help fans with advice about encoding and various formats. Maybe that is the contribution that is most needed on Queenzone. Fights don't help at all.Absolutely right. Just want you all to know that if it wasn't for Queenzone and all the fantastic ppl who share in here, I would't have the change to listen to all those great shows I have. It is magical to me, to listen those concerts that I wouldn't be able to get anywhere else, and been a Queen fan for over 30 yrs, I just gotta say: Thanks to the Queenzone administrators and the fan community!!! |
| on my way up 06.10.2007 07:44 |
Nummer2 wrote: SirGH, in all respect, but you're talking from the view of a trader. I'm a Queen fan since 1977, and only Queenzone made it possible for me to listen to their live shows. Before I found QZ I only knew the official stuff. I can't describe how happy I am to have the possibility to download all the great stuff for free, without having to trade something in return (which I never would be able to). If there was a FLAC only policy on QZ, I doubt I would have more than 10 or 20 concerts yet – just because there would much less shares – but thanks to MP3 I have a lot more. And what's more important: I can give something in return by again sharing all those shows (almost) continuously to help spreading them. Of course I prefer FLAC files over MP3. But I doubt that all the people who share MP3 stuff just out of convenience or lack of knowledge (those are the vast majority, no doubt) would share everything in FLAC if MP3 sharing was banned. And to rely on the few traders would be ridiculously silly. I can do without some 5 or 6 rare shows that stay withheld. I am lucky with what I have already thanks to MP3. I can understand that you traders are interested in those rare shows that haven't been shared yet, but ... sorry, but ... you should have stayed away from QZ ;-) And: It's easier to change your own ways, not QZ.If all traders would be like bob, this site would be a paradise full of wonderful lossless Queen recordings. I'm absolutely sure about that. |
| on my way up 06.10.2007 11:28 |
tgunn2760 wrote: LOL...Or maybe his whole rant is just a ruse so he doesn't share his STASH.sir GH has shared a lot of wonderful recordings. Look for the flac concert list. |
| cexycy 09.10.2007 19:06 |
frank39 wrote: "But I see absolutely no reason why they shouldn't be shared. Some people simply prefer MP3's, some prefer FLAC. MP3's are often more than sufficient - I don't really need to have the 5ive version of WWRY in FLAC or WAV or on original CD). " You took the words right out of my mouth.I agree whole-heartedly! |
| cexycy 09.10.2007 19:08 |
Don't forget, many people own MP3 players and will therefore want MP3 format for them. Also don't forget MP3s take up less space, so this also helps. OKay MP3 players maybe less quality, but there are plenty of time where they are enough or more than. It's like FM and AM radio as well as analogue TV compared to digital! |
| cexycy 09.10.2007 19:46 |
Sorry, I forgot to mention that obviously everyone knows flac is better than MP3 and digital TV and radio is better than analogue. No-one is saying any different. HOWEVER we can still live with MP3s and analogue systems. So as long as we still have the systems which play them, we're still going to need things for them. And if someone downloads a flac file, converts it to MP3 and deletes the flac version because they only want it in MP3 and then someone else wants it from them, what do they do? Accept the offer of MP3 or say "Sorry, MP3s are not good enough for me! You peasant!" Get a grip folks! |
| The Real Wizard 10.10.2007 01:00 |
It's been a year since this topic was started, and little has changed. We now have about a dozen people at this forum who are outspoken and pro-lossless. And since then, how many new Queen recordings have come to the light (not including those from Japanese bootleg companies)? One. Vancouver 78. Honestly, why is it that at this forum there are still people who do not see why it's wrong to purposely ruin recordings? Is virtually every other trading community (thriving as they are) wrong? Check out how many new Floyd/Zep/Genesis/Rush recordings come out every year... it ain't because people share them in mp3 format. Collectors of those bands had this debate five years ago, and ousted anyone who disagreed - and look at how well they're doing. It doesn't take long to research how well this community is doing in comparison to others. Are there many Zeppelin collectors here? Compare this place to the Presence server, and tell me which community has done their homework, and which one is enjoying more new recordings. If you think those hardcore tapers would share their uncirculated Zeppelin recordings at a pro-lossy forum, you must be out of your mind! Many collectors are sitting on their Queen recordings purely because of the lack of quality standards here. I'm not talking about these selfish (mostly European) Queen collectors who hoard recordings like it's a sport. Most Queen collectors don't have a clue what goes on in the outside collecting world, and don't realize how bad our reputation is out there. I'm talking about neutral people (generally in the US) who recorded many bands including Queen. They happily share most of their stuff, but not their Queen recordings. They don't even talk about these recordings publicly, but good luck searching the forums if you want to hear about them. There are 13 recordings from the US Game tour (most of which were available 10 years ago), and that was Queen's most successful (and longest) tour. Doesn't anyone here stop to wonder why? Do you think these new recordings just magically fall out of the sky? Sure, now and again we have wonderfully generous people like our new friend James who will soon share his Boston 76 recording (or so it seems, we hope!), but we have surely missed many opportunities for other new shows, purely because of the lack of quality standards here. I'll continue to be a broken record about this until people here finally start to get it. At the bare minimum, this is the way it should be: 1) Allow lossy and lossless sharing, and have separate forums for each. 2) Allow lossy recordings to be shared until the lossless version is shared. Then the lossy version should be removed. Those who still want it lossy can convert it themselves. The software is available for everyone, and it's very easy to use. Honestly... who does NOT win if it's like this? In the spirit of preserving the quality of these recordings, someone please explain to me why this is wrong. |
| Nummer2 10.10.2007 07:13 |
Hi, I stumbled across this accidently, and when I read my own posting from 2006 (cited above), I was astonished, how much I have changed my mind since then. In the meantime I have learned much about file sharing, bootlegs and trading communities. In my 2007 opinion, im with SirGH 100%. He is right, definitely, and if Queenzone doesn't change, it will degenerate into a playground of bored teenagers in the near future. But how can a change be accomplished? How can standards be defined? They could be copied from other successful communities, but the forum will have to be observed. Through moderation? Who will spend his time on that? His money? I must admit, I could merely be a beneficiary, because I don't have either. |
| The Real Wizard 10.10.2007 10:07 |
Perhaps a few of us could be moderators of the sharing forums, and check each share to place it in the correct forum (lossy or lossless). I would be the first to volunteer, and would have no problem spending a half hour per day checking one song per torrent/rapidshare/whatever to see if it's lossless. Anyone else? |
| tilomagnet 10.10.2007 14:05 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: There are 13 recordings from the US Game tour (most of which were available 10 years ago), and that was Queen's most successful (and longest) tour. Doesn't anyone here stop to wonder why? Do you think these new recordings just magically fall out of the sky?Now I'm waiting for someone to post the argument again that noone in the U.S. knew how to tape a concert and thus these shows were poorly documented. Ah yes... |
| tilomagnet 10.10.2007 14:42 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: Honestly, why is it that at this forum there are still people who do not see why it's wrong to purposely ruin recordings? Is virtually every other trading community (thriving as they are) wrong? Check out how many new Floyd/Zep/Genesis/Rush recordings come out every year... it ain't because people share them in mp3 format. Collectors of those bands had this debate five years ago, and ousted anyone who disagreed - and look at how well they're doing. It doesn't take long to research how well this community is doing in comparison to others.I doubt that Zep or Floyd collectors ever discussed if mp3 was the proper format to preserve unreleased live shows (don't know about Genesis or Rush though). The "history" of these collecting scenes are just altogether different from the one of Queen. When the DAT format became popular in the early '90ies it was possible for the first time to losslessly copy shows and distribute them and thus the era of analog tape trading (i.e. cassettes and open reel) came to an end (not for Queen trading of course!) Well, what Zep traders did at this stage was to seek out masters and low gens and transfer them to DAT, which now made it possible to distribute these upgrades without any quality loss down the line. So basically what the Zep scene (and many others) did 15 years ago, is what the Queen scene is slowly starting to do today. Anyway, what does this have to do with mp3 sharing? Well, when talking about the differences in the history of the Zep (for example) and Queen trading scenes I meant that it has always been the aim of Zep collectors to preserve these recordings in the best quality possible, because they understand that the recordings are unique and need to be treasured by the fans. They'd never ever discuss whether a lossy format might be the way to go, because it was more conveniant for some people. Mp3 is not lossless, therefore it's not acceptable. Period. They were finally able to make lossless copies of shows for the first time with DAT 15 years ago, so why would they start screwing up the sound of these recordings by using a poor lossy compression scheme today? Doesn't make sense to me. Most Queen fans have an altogether different attitute towards these recordings. How often do you read postings here like "it's only an audience recording, so who cares what generation this is or what formats it went through, it's going to sound like shit anyway..." blah, blah, blah ? That's what the real problem of the Queen scene is. Most fans just don't get that unreleased recordings need to be treasured and preserved by the fans, instead they regard them as worthless due to the inferior sound quality compared to an official release. If this attitude changes we'll never have the mp3 vs. FLAC debate again. |
| Queenrockyou 10.10.2007 15:15 |
Hello everyone out there, I more than agree with Bob, this forum is having trouble and from a certain point of view we can see that two groups of people are here on Queenzone (talking about those who share, not those who only download, like me for the moment, sorry to say). We have on one hand the pro-MP3, and on the second hand the pro-FLAC. And reading the posts we can see them from each side of the line, beginning to insult each other, throw shoes (oops, sorry, glimpse from South America maybe...) at each others and for a second we are in front of a civil war ! HERE, on Queenzone !!! OK, I'm exagerating things. But do I, really ? This is the same topic going on for years, and IF we can trust Bob (and I'm sure we do !!), outside Queenzone, in other music fans forums, the lossy formats are excluded since a good pack of years ! Could they all be wrong, and here the pro-MP3 would be right ? I don't think so, and if we try to understand why it is like that, then it's easy to conclude the only thing possible : sharing MP3 is good for those who want MP3, and there are still a lot of people in that case (sad, but let's understand then and agree with them), but can refrain those who only think about FLAC and other lossless formats, whatever they are ! What's the interest of buying a superb hi-fi system, with all the best technology on it, and then beginning to downgrade it, and invite friends to see and hear it, or wrap it and offer to one of your best friends in that state ? Quite a non-sense. That's the same with MP3 I think. We can very well deteriorate the sound if we are forced to do it to hear the files, or to play them on a MP3-player, OK, if there's no other way then let's go, that's perfect. But we can't honestly continue to offer them (or sell them !!) to other Queen fans if a lossless version exists !! that's not that way the other Queen fans could enjoy the quality of the music and let the concerts still be easily available in the next 20 years to come !! So I see three options : 1- "Play the Game" : Making a database of the MP3 recordings and a link to each concert (quite a work) 2- "Divorce" : Creating a new forum that would only be for lossless sharing (quite radical solution, and why not saying Queenzone's dead right now !) 3- "Living Together" : Not quite a "Divorce" solution, but a sort of respecting each other's point of view and let everyone find its pleasure on Queenzone, going on the forum he prefers, the one for lossy and the one for lossless, each one in its room ! The perfect solution in my own point of view is the third. I will go on lossy sharing format if I want to, and I will go on lossless if I prefer. In my case, I do, but in anyone's case there is no problem of banning someone from Queenzone, just have a separation. I'm pretty sure the two groups of Queenzoners would benefit quite from it, and that could not be a problem. I don't argue with my neighbour if he doesn't listen the same music than me, I'm only arguing with him if he plays it too loud. So stop fighting men, we are all fed up and we all prefer going on Queenzone to read what we prefer : music, Queen music, kindly, and that's all... OK so now take your phone, call the 00/984/74/65/35/885 (or whatever number you prefer), then press 1 for the first solution being finalist, 2 for the second, and 3 for the third !!! I think Bob started a very good reflexion, and I don't understand why it would not be possible to do this way. Let's hope you would like to share your own point of view, and if we can propose something new on Queenzone to please everyone. Olivier, France. |
| The Real Wizard 11.10.2007 00:19 |
tilomagnet wrote: Well, what Zep traders did at this stage was to seek out masters and low gens and transfer them to DAT, which now made it possible to distribute these upgrades without any quality loss down the line. So basically what the Zep scene (and many others) did 15 years ago, is what the Queen scene is slowly starting to do today. Anyway, what does this have to do with mp3 sharing?Mp3 destroys the process of preserving low generation tapes. You of all people know that.. :) ruth.olivier wrote: Let's hope you would like to share your own point of view, and if we can propose something new on Queenzone to please everyone.But that's the thing... we're not going to please everyone. It's time to be blunt: We need to weed out those who are pro-mp3. They contribute nothing to the community. It really is as simple as that. There's another challenge... tell me, what can pro-lossy people contribute to the community that pro-lossless people cannot? |
| thunderbolt 31742 11.10.2007 00:34 |
Frankly, if what Sir GH is saying is true (and I have full confidence that it is), simply splitting into a lossless forum and a lossy forum isn't enough. Think of it this way: the people hoarding Queen recordings because the Queen community has a nasty tendency towards lossy wouldn't see their concerns answered simply because lossless has its own forum now. All that means is that someone needs to download the FLACs, make crappy-sounding 128kbps MP3s of them, and share them in the lossy forum. It's a rubber stamp measure that benefits no one, because those new recordings remain hidden. If anything, it sets us back because QZ would be putting a stamp of approval on lossy sharing instead of simply tolerating it, as is the case now. Personally, I want to hear some new recordings. I download the FLACs and convert them to MP3 for personal use, because 320kbps is acceptable to my ears. I then make sure that my converted MP3s are not shared, period, because that would be peeing in someone else's pool. To answer the question posed about what to do if someone hears your MP3 and wants the show after you've deleted your FLACs, why not direct them to the thread where you got the FLACs from and let them discover it for themselves? If they don't want to go through the three minutes it would take to find the thread and start the download, hey, too bad for them. Best case, though, they find their show--along with several others they like. Bam, new fan to keep the music alive. I'm not entirely altruistic in this pursuit, though. While I was at the Phoenix, AZ, show in March of last year, I saw at least three people on the floor recording. I've been chasing down tape of that show since the day afterwards (a day that I should have spent racing to San Diego to see them again, but that's beside the point), and among the very little I've turned up is that at least one person at that show apparently did get a good quality, complete recording of it, and they distributed it among a handful of friends with specific instruction that it was not to reach the internet until the taper gave the ok, nor was it to be traded. I can't really go any farther into that conversation than to say that certain things were said which confirm to my satisfaction that the person I spoke with is not full of it, and there genuinely is a recording of Phoenix out there with instructions that it is not to be traded or shared. I also have very good reason to believe that there's a reason this taper specified to the people who got this recording that it was not to reach the internet--a request the person I exchanged e-mails with said this guy had never made of bootlegs taped for his friends before. I know it's only a recent Q+PR show, and not a '70s gem, but my point is that the '70s gems are out there, as are the early '80s shows we've "lost" to the ages. The taper of the Phoenix show is hoarding it because of the Queen fanbase's reputation for destroying bootlegs by making them into MP3s and distributing those lossy files (that's what I believe, anyway). If someone who's taped a grand total of one Queen show knows enough about the QZ leeches to specify no trading, how much is being held back by those who taped several shows back in the golden years? The answer: we'll never know until QZ bans lossy sharing. Period. |
| pittrek 11.10.2007 02:05 |
Here is a reply from a person who loved mp3s a few years ago - I started with Queen bootlegs in the time I've joined the Queen hub. In that time I was downloading ONLY mp3s, because they were so small and my connection was so slow. Even when I downloaded flac, I have converted them to mp3s and deleted the flac files to save disc space ! In simple words, I was once exactly such an idiot, like many Queenzone users now. There are 3 main problems with mp3s 1) They are lossy. You lose audio information everytime you make some changes to the mp3 files. 2) They have irremovable "gaps" at the end, which is completely wrong for concerts. 3) No "real" trader accepts mp3s these days, so my huge mp3 collection is worthless. But now I have a much bigger hard disk and a bigger download speed, so I started to download and trade lossless concerts, and since I've listened to my first lossless recording I've NEVER came back to mp3s. I thought that people will be the same as I am, so I thought let them download what they want, but it looks like some people still don't want to understand that mp3s should be not shared. I fully support SirGH with the idea of splitting the "Sharing the Music - Announce" forum into lossy and lossless sections and to make it moderated. MP3s deserve to die |
| The Real Wizard 11.10.2007 03:08 |
Thunderbolt<br><h6>Courtesy of God wrote: All that means is that someone needs to download the FLACs, make crappy-sounding 128kbps MP3s of them, and share them in the lossy forum. It's a rubber stamp measure that benefits no one, because those new recordings remain hidden. If anything, it sets us back because QZ would be putting a stamp of approval on lossy sharing instead of simply tolerating it, as is the case now.That's a fantastic point. |
| Queenrockyou 11.10.2007 04:25 |
I do agree with you Bob, MP" is not hat good for new recordings to be shared, that's totally true. I still think we have to make some place for MP3 users. The best place we would have to make would be to share flac files, then they can convert the files themselves. But it seems that can take too much time for people here or something, because I don't know why MP3 are still shared when flac files do exist. That's something I can't uderstand, but well, that's as it is ! So, given the situation, do we have to ban 50% of the Queenzoners here and only keep the other ones ? It seems a little radical, I think you understand my point of view. We have to be more strict regarding to MP3, but is banning it a real solution ? It clearly would be the best one, I agree with you, but I think we have to be realistic, it's a shame but we can't tell everybody to get out of Queenzone like that ! On the other hand, they don't do anything better for the forum, that's true, I agree too. So what we can do ? maybe create a queenzonemp3.com sort of thing, a parallel website which would not be the same, where people could find MP3. Well, if we have queenzone.com offering flac files besides, I'm quite sure this site would not be visited so often, unless for people wanting to discover Queen live and prefering listening and downloading mp3s in the first time. There are some, you can't disagree with me. I was one of these in the first time, I didn't know anything about flac until one year or two ago, so I was pleased with MP3 files somebody sent to me, that permitted me to hear what they sung, said, audience things and so on. But I am upset when I see that the same gigs exist in flac format, far better quality. Do you think a sort of Queenzonemp3.com or another website for MP3 sharing would be a good solution ? It would leave MP3 lovers outside Queenzone, where only flac would be shared (but remember Queenzone is not only a place for sharing, it also has a lot of info and so on). I don't think we could create a Queenzoneflac.com, we have to keep the good quality and the name of Queenzone together I think. Well, if we can't live together on Queenzone, would you think this would be an acceptable solution ? Thanks for your opinion. Yes, we can share that too, no need to know if it is lossy or lossless opinion, or if it shared via torrent or mediafire !! Think about it ;o) Olivier, France. |
| Nummer2 11.10.2007 05:15 |
The more I think of it, the more I understand the general problem. As long as there's a Queen community that's capable of sharing MP3 files, the trading scene will stay away. So splitting Queenzone in two forums – lossy and lossless – is no solution. If somebody likes to share his MP3s at another place (there are lots of them, but not on has a "Queen" label), no problem. But if Queenzone is supposed to be the place where Queen recordings are shared, it has to regain the trust of the traders. And that can only be accomplished by banning MP3 and establishing moderation. But: how long will it take, till the bad reputation is wahed clean – if at all? The alternative is to make a sharp cut: Disable file sharing at Queenzone completely and build a brand new sharing community – lossless only – at another domain. I'd vote for the latter. Queenzone, the discussion forum, and Queenboots (or any other name), the trading community. |
| YourValentine 11.10.2007 05:57 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: We need to weed out those who are pro-mp3. They contribute nothing to the community. It really is as simple as that.I hope you do not really mean that, Bob. Weed out? I don't believe it. You must know that such a language has a history. I stopped discussing the issue a while ago but to blame everything which is "wrong" in the Queen collector world on Queenzone is simply unfair. I know tapers in person and none of them ever told me I cannot share a recording on the net (Dime, QZ, whatever) because of the mp3 issue. It was ALWAYS because of ebay and bootleg sellers or because they simply do not want to have their recordings shared at all. The tapers I know are not that concerned about the issue. After all, most of them record on mini disc which is a lossy recording to begin with (I know the difference between the mini disc compression and mp3, please don't start). Much more than sharing mp3s it annoys me that new concerts which have been shared on the net lately appear on ebay within days - and the sellers are often traders, you know that. I can't believe the picture that is drawn here: if we do not ban mp3, the Queen collectors are not respected and teenager hoardes will invade the website. Queenzone is not the center of the world, many recordings are shared in private, via messengers or sites like emule. It's totally impossible to forbid the circulation of mp3s. Also, policing the members has never been an option for Richard. Messages announcing official recordings are deleted but that is the end of "moderation". I think many of us do not even realize to which extent sharing is possible on Queenzone (and tolerated by the "powers"!)and how lucky we are to have this generous community. Instead, people are complaining about exactly this freedom and tolerance. You cannot have it both ways - the freedom and tolerance AND the website removing posts you do not approve of. There are still a lot of people with slow connections or dial up who pay per minute and it's really unkind to tell them they have just bad luck because many of us have moved away from that. |
| The Real Wizard 11.10.2007 10:57 |
Nummer2, can you please send me an email? bob at queenlive.ca |
| YourValentine 11.10.2007 11:51 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: Richard means well, but he's using the same policies that he used years ago. They don't meet today's needs.Whose needs? Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: Barbara, why is so hard for you to accept that Queenzone is not a prosperous trading community? Why are you ignoring the fact that it is only Queen that is known to have collectors who convert new sources to mp3 and re-share them?.But QZ is not a trading community :) That's the whole misunderstanding - it's a fan website. We can try to establish a trading community but there will always be room for other aspects of "fandom". In the past Richard has always been willing to add other forums - surely he would create an mp3 forum (instead of a request forum, for example) if the members want that - but it seems to me that some members want to ban mp3s from the website. Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: A small minority of people have small hard drives and/or slow connections. Why should the majority of people have to give in to their needs?They don't need to give in. It's everybody's choice which format they collect. I am not sure about the small minority, we don't have any statistics. Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: I'm not blaming *all* the problems on Queenzone. But I can be completely certain that our bad reputation regarding quality preservation is because of Queenzone. I have never seen a trading community of another band criticized because its traders convert shows to mp3.Okay, maybe I am wrong here - but is there any other fan website like QZ? I mean a fan website with such a big sharing forum for JUST ONE band? Tolerated by the band and endorsed by the official website? I think not but maybe I am wrong. I just do not care when we are criticized by whoever thinks this is wrong. As a collector I have never once encountered any criticism because I have a Queenzone account. I know many Queen collectors who keep a distance from QZ but they do not necessarily keep a distance to me as a person or collector because of Queenzone. When a collector gives me a recording under the condition not to share it on QZ, I do respect it. If there are people who would never speak to me because of Queenzone - well, the world is big enough for all of us. Look, I am not the enemy of flac collectors, I do understand where you coming from. I just cannot agree to banning mp3s. There are so many restrictions in work and other aspects of life, I am all for live and let live in my hobby. You can still email Richard, maybe he has another opinion. |
| YourValentine 11.10.2007 11:53 |
Strange ... what happened to the message I replied to? |
| The Real Wizard 11.10.2007 12:16 |
YourValentine wrote: Strange ... what happened to the message I replied to?Ha... I don't know! :P Okay, maybe I am wrong here - but is there any other fan website like QZ? I mean a fan website with such a big sharing forum for JUST ONE band? Tolerated by the band and endorsed by the official website?Are you saying that QOL endorses Queenzone? If you want to see websites of thriving trading communities for single bands, here are a couple: link and link However, you can't see the forum on the Zeppelin website unless you register. When a collector gives me a recording under the condition not to share it on QZ, I do respect it.Those aren't the kinds of collectors I'm talking about. This small number of private European Queen collectors do not represent collectors as a whole. Collectors who are usually difficult to negotiate with and place restrictions on recordings are in the sheer minority. Since you only collect Queen (that I'm aware of), perhaps you think that collectors who hold the best/rarest material of other bands act similarly. Well, that totally is not the case. Just recently, a first gen tape of Mike Millard's legendary recording of Zeppelin's LA 6-21-77 show came out on the Presence server. If that was an equivalent Queen recording (say, LA 12-22-77, or even 3-3-77, since that has been circulating as an unmarked gen) and one of those European collectors were the first to get it, it wouldn't see the light of day for years, if ever. The days of hoarding and trading with restrictions are coming to a grinding halt in this modern digital age of collecting. Queen collectors are far behind in this aspect of trading as well. Open sharing attracts others who want to share. In the wider collecting world, those who want to share are in the overwhelming majority. In contrast, many Queen traders still have the "every man for himself" attitude, so in many cases, we don't know where the best recordings of many shows are, because some people aren't willing to talk. The time has come to act as a community, not as individuals. I digress... kind of. These things do all come together in the end. Since people are more willing than ever to share their uncirculated recordings (again, not Queen collectors, but people who recorded many bands including Queen), they want the quality of their recordings to be maintained. At the moment, the centre of the Queen trading community is QZ, like Yeeshkul is for Pink Floyd or Royal Orleans for Led Zeppelin. They compare Queenzone to those websites, and need little time to see that this sharing forum is an absolute mess. Thus, they sit on their recordings, but for entirely different reasons than why Queen collectors sit on theirs. Take the new sources of Dallas 78, Vancouver 78, London 9-7/8-84, Stockholm 86, and Manchester 86 as examples, which all came straight from the source. I can be pretty certain that those collectors would not have shared those recordings had they been aware of Queenzone. They shared them elsewhere (Dime, TTD), because there are quality standards at those websites. There is not a chance that they simply chose Dime and TTD for no apparent reason. As for QZ itself, how many new sources of recordings from collectors with quality standards have popped up here in the last few years? My count is at zero (silver rips don't count). Perhaps that Leiden 84 alternate source counts? I can't think of any others. Collectors of most bands happily share everything they have. Of course, there will always be Stones, Who, Zeppelin, etc. collectors who will sit on recordings for decades, but I have never seen other collectors hang onto even the most insignificant recordings like Queen collectors do. Dealing with these select European Queen collectors does not give one the entire picture of what trading communities are, and what th |
| Queenrockyou 11.10.2007 16:31 |
Well, is there any volunteer to create a new website out there ? Shouldn't we talk first to the webmaster of Queenzone to know what he thinks about that and what is said about Queenzone, or what he could do to solve that problem ? Richard, please help us !! Olivier, France. |
| josedequeso 17.10.2007 23:47 |
I think Sir GH said it best earlier in this thread, it's been over a year since this topic was started and very little has changed. It's quite a shame that some people are too stubborn or unwilling to change and we all suffer as a result of it. It feels like we are in an argument with fundamentalist christians. Pfff...I give up, there's nothing more that can be said, you won't hear me on this issue anymore. |
| Saint Jiub 07.11.2007 21:06 |
From Bob's 10/11/2007 12:18 AM post on page 4 ... "But that's the thing... we're not going to please everyone. It's time to be blunt: We need to weed out those who are pro-mp3." Sounds like a Flac Nazi to me. |
| bohemianmoomin 07.11.2007 21:38 |
FLAC wins. |
| josedequeso 07.11.2007 21:57 |
Gym Bitch wrote: From Bob's 10/11/2007 12:18 AM post on page 4 ... "But that's the thing... we're not going to please everyone. It's time to be blunt: We need to weed out those who are pro-mp3." Sounds like a Flac Nazi to me.The thing is, I dropped the ball on this one. I was assigned to exterminate you, but I let you slip away. Bob already took care of tigger, and on my way up has Ted's ashes in his firepit. We let a couple slip between the cracks, but rest assured the majority of the mp3 lovers have been eradicated and now the superior flac race can prosper. Heil, Joe |
| The Real Wizard 08.11.2007 02:09 |
lol! Ah, man... maybe that's taking it a bit too far! |
| Nummer2 08.11.2007 04:00 |
Joe, Bob, I know what irony is. I even confess that I smiled for a second about the profile image. But please, let's not make fun of something as trivial as a file format by using symbols or terms on whose behalf more than 6,000,000 people were killed and much more traumatized – till today. Lets call the one group sophisticated or altruistic and the other one lazy and ignorant, but "nazis", "eradication" or "heil" doesn't fit. |
| YourValentine 08.11.2007 04:19 |
I agree, Nummer2. I am shocked about the all-time low a discussion on Queenzone has reached. It's just about a file format, how can anyone cause distress to other people by posting a Nazi symbol and use Nazi language only because users do not follow the wishes of the flac supporters? I understand that some people are young and/or uneducated but we all should agree that hate language has no place on a board like this. |
| Queenrockyou 08.11.2007 08:18 |
I quite agree with the last posts, the Nazis symbol has nothing to do with the Flac and mp3 battle, it just goes a little bit too far, everybody and espacially here in western Europe can attest that it is a very strong image charged with negative feeling. On the other hand, I understand the frustration and I am myself quite frustrated concerning the Flac or mp3 "battle", as it became a real battle indeed. Just try not to kill ourselves... So well, he chooses the nazis symbol, a good point is that it makes us talk about it and be more concerned with the danger of mp3 sharing (once again, only when a lossless version exists already, in the other cases mp3 can be OK !). I'm with you guys, and even if I'm more pacifist in my terms and image, I more than agree with these ideas. so it a sort of "Don't try to make me rise up in arms, I don't want to read "killed in action" on my gravestone...". If we have to "battle", we can do it peacefully. If we have to choose a solution and everybody is against us, then, let's find one! Sorry for the Flac Nazi image, I won't call that stupid but I know some will do it. The IDEA behind that is far from stupid. Just excuse him and remember that some of the world political leaders or major businessmen had trouble with bad communication and so on. Excuse him and see the idea behind, that's the important point, don't deviate from this. If you missed the point, well just read the lasts posts in this thread and in other recent ones too. And in other less recent ones. And... Well I think you got the point now ! Real problem needs real solutions. Time is going on and nothing moves, when it really has to do quickly. It leads to bad communication. But the idea is still here and can be debated. So let's talk about the ideas now and don't care the symbol... Regards, Olivier, France. PS : Bob, I found a name for a new Queen website, link, isn't it lovely ? Any volunteer ? |
| YourValentine 08.11.2007 08:50 |
"Sorry for the Flac Nazi image, I won't call that stupid but I know some will do it. The IDEA behind that is far from stupid. Just excuse him and remember that some of the world political leaders or major businessmen had trouble with bad communication and so on. Excuse him and see the idea behind, that's the important point, don't deviate from this. If you missed the point, well just read the lasts posts in this thread and in other recent ones too. And in other less recent ones. And... Well I think you got the point now !" Who misses the point? You seem to be a reasonable person, Olivier, so please think for a moment. This website is owned by Richard. Just imagine for a moment that he could delete it with one click on his PC. He has run this website for many years and he is the most generous person in terms of letting people express their opinion without interfering. He has made this sharing forum possible and with the help of many generous fans we have shared tons of files here over the years. Who are you or Bob or the other person to start this flaming war about which files can be shared and which cannot be shared when the only rule Richard has set up is: no official material can be shared. There is no rule on Queenzone forbidding to share .mp3, .wmv, .flv or any other lossy files. It's okay to ask people not to spread lossy files when you share a flac concert and most people respect this wish. It's not okay to attack people who offer mp3 files, it's not okay to post Nazi language because it's not funny. It causes anguish to many people who have suffered under the Nazis. It's also not okay to do this on another person's website, a guy who has been nothing but nice and generous. Although often dissed by users, QZ is still a respected website and it's definitely not okay to make it look like the home of Nazis or to make the casual visitor think it's the usual style of a Queen fan website. I am sure Bob would not want his bosses to think he endorses posts ending with "heil". It's everybody's free choice to open their own sharing site, to take the legal risk being targeted by record companies and and to set up their own rules. |
| Queenrockyou 08.11.2007 09:40 |
I agree with you on some points. I think we so-called "Defenders Of the Flac Format" (the DOFFs ?) are quite clever to know that mp3 is good for USE, we just don't agree with mp3 for SHARE. I understand than some people here, or the casual visitor, may find the Flac format a little complicated to understand, or to install or whatever, and so don't want to spend some time he think useless to see what is this Flac thing. Or he only uses mp3 material for his own use on its mp3 player, if I had one I surely would do it (and I would keep my Flac files aside on my hard drive for example). So I don't think anybody has something against the mp3 thing. I myself used to buy a lot of these, and even built a quite impressive Deep Purple collection with this format. But I will never copy these mp3 to send to someone for its Deep Purple collection, nor would I ask him to pay for that. Secundly, if I share something quite precious has a non-official recording (you know that's the thing that makes you feel like you could go further and discover such things different from the "official" side of a band, and when you say "damn, is it possible that someone singing "Radio Ga Ga" could sing things like "Yellow Breezes" and a lot of more rare tracks ?" or more recently "Wow ! Brian May was quite impressive on disc, it's really cool to hear him play "Purple Haze" on a pre-Queen band !!"). I was waying if I share something precious, I respect the initial work, of the artists, of the tapers, of those who upgraded the recordings etc... and I don't see why I would convert it to a lossy format before sending it anyone else. The only thing I see there is that I don't pay respect to the "before" part (the artists, the tapers, the other ones involved, those who gave me the recording), ans to the "after" part (the one I'm giving an altered recording, even if it is not that noticeable for most of them, it is altered and we can't go back, and to the other ones we wil lgive the recording). This is seen as a spreading disease for some of us, it is more that the Flac files are more difficult to find if the mp3 is more accessible, you know? If there is 95% of the gigs shared in mp3, then only 5% of the concerts on offer are lossless, and then it takes so long time to find them, that people forget that and continue to spread mp3 files, convert them, re-convert them, share, and keep spreading music that finally is altered for good. That's not respect, respect means taking care of the music that is given to us, and let the music the more available and the unaltered for the followers. In ten years, what would be queen concerts from the 70s if there was no Flac format ? I really don't know. You understand my point of view ? I think Bob and co are thinking about the same thing. That was just to clarify my position. as far as Queenzone is concerned, it was created a long time ago, thanks a lot Richard for that, a true genious you are ! So at the time the mp3 and Flac differences were not known, the main goal of the board was to discuss I think, and then it became a website more known for the sharing side. It grew a lot, and now we are a lot to benefit from it. With all our differences. Queenzone is THE website for Queen lovers as it is seen from the "outside world". We have to keep connected with it, as Bob said once, some Led Zep collectors could very well have Queen rare tracks with them, as Guns N'Roses fans, and so on. And they are some of an example, even if there is no standard. Sex Pistols fans may very well use only mp3, I don't really know ! That's because Queenzone is a reference that it has to be used like that. A reference for the sharing activity. But if it is something negative, such as nasty words and so on, then it is looked negatively. Hence the fact that some rules had to be set up. Thankfully, Richard was clever enough to make those rules the s |
| YourValentine 08.11.2007 10:04 |
Olivier - I think we all know what the flac/mp3 discussion is about. At the risk to repeat myself: The old Queenzone server was for mp3 because at the time it was the only "shareable" format from an ftp server. I don't think I even knew about flac files in 2001. The tracker was introduced in 2004 and was originally meant for flac files but there was never a mandatory rule that files must be flac. Richard also never had anything against posting rapidshare links or any other sharing link. He always supported the hub whose owner is also very tolerant. It's about the way we treat each other. Many new concerts were shared on Queenzone first - and in good quality, too. If people offer advice to other users to give up on mp3 sharing - that's okay. However, it's not okay to attack people and it's definitely not okay to let things escalate like they do in this thread. |
| Queenrockyou 08.11.2007 10:31 |
I agree with you, it is not a matter of attacking people, it is right (well it can be different for other queenzoners but I don't care). I think we can talk as gentlemen and not talk or behave badly. But now that's said, please don't stay on this Nazi thing, please consider it is only history, ok, and then let's everybody discuss freely and correctly. Ah, too much pressure I think !!! Maybe a little tired or something, he didn't realize ! Hope he will apologize for this tomorrow after a good night ;o). The same can be said also on other threads I think, it's inherent to a forum, it happens sometimes. We just have to be conscious of that and without giving excuses to that type of behaviour, just try our best so that is not becoming an habit to see that kind of thing ! Once again, all was going from ideas, it was not made just to annoy everyone of us, but to explain a point of view in a way, but it was somewhat extreme here. Bad way to do, I recognize !! Just keep being polite, as I do and you too, people are more beautiful when they smile and talk correctly... |
| on my way up 08.11.2007 11:01 |
It's unbelievable this discussion is still on. Several people made clear what is better about lossless. All good reasons to change this place were given. We could make it a true Queen collecting community. But I get the impression there are some people who just don't want to take their collecting activities to a more serious level. That's a pitty and the fact that serious collectors have to suffer is a shame. |
| The Real Wizard 08.11.2007 12:20 |
YourValentine wrote: There is no rule on Queenzone forbidding to share .mp3, .wmv, .flv or any other lossy files. It's okay to ask people not to spread lossy files when you share a flac concert and most people respect this wish. It's not okay to attack people who offer mp3 filesSorry, I completely disagree. The rules of this forum are stuck in the year 2000, when mp3 was a convenient format to send over dial-up internet. Things have changed. We are in the year 2007, when 99% of us have high speed internet connections and big hard drives. We should be sharing files without quality loss, and not catering to the wants (not "needs") of a few. it's not okay to post Nazi language because it's not funny. It causes anguish to many people who have suffered under the Nazis.Joe was obviously joking. I hope you're criticizing Gym Bitch for starting it, not Joe for using hyperbole. It's about the way we treat each other.Right. And Gym Bitch is treating everyone perfectly nicely with positive intentions, right? Why isn't it okay for me to be vocal in wanting what's best for the majority of people in this community, yet it's okay for him to purposely try to make it worse for them? Who's side are you on? |
| josedequeso 08.11.2007 15:16 |
Just so you all know, I didn't start the Nazi propaganda, it was started over a year before I joined QZ. |
| josedequeso 08.11.2007 15:19 |
Secondly to Your Valentine: I know god damn well about the holocaust, a great uncle of mine was killed in the holocaust, so don't treat me like an ignorant kid all right? So it's not OK if I defend myself through ironic statements and satire when I am called a Nazi, yet when Mike Van originated the thread over a year ago, you didn't say a damn thing? So why don't you fuck off! |
| josedequeso 08.11.2007 15:50 |
Nummer2 wrote: Joe, Bob, I know what irony is. I even confess that I smiled for a second about the profile image. But please, let's not make fun of something as trivial as a file format by using symbols or terms on whose behalf more than 6,000,000 people were killed and much more traumatized – till today. Lets call the one group sophisticated or altruistic and the other one lazy and ignorant, but "nazis", "eradication" or "heil" doesn't fit.Agreed, let us now stop all the nazi comparisons and I will take down the picture. Still, I didn't start this! |
| Queenrockyou 08.11.2007 16:08 |
Thanks Joe, stop this now, it was going a little too far, even if you were not the one who started the comparison. We all know the ideas behind that, let's talk about that and not giving anyone else reasons to hate you, or finding something else in your talking than your real ideas about that. Sorry for your grand-father, some of my family was there too. Well, that's said. Done. What else? Oh, yes ! we were talking about Flac ! Don't lose track. ;o) Olivier, France. |
| YourValentine 08.11.2007 16:15 |
Thank you, josedequeso I appreciate it (I don't appreciate the "fuck off", though :). I did not see Gym Bitch's post and I wasn't aware he was Mike. I don't know what Nazi propaganda you are referring to, I went back in this thread and I did not find any posts by Mike Anyway, I would like to solve the situation but I do not know how. In the mean time I saw the Cologne thread and I agree that it's a provocation by Mike to annoy Bob. I cannot delete the thread due to the rules set out by Richard but I'll ask Mike to remove the link as a favour to keep the peace on this board. This is not a good day for Queenzone. |
| josedequeso 08.11.2007 16:23 |
Check out this thread originated over a year ago: link And thanks to you ruth.olivier. The holocaust was in my opinion the single worst tragedy in human history, it caused my family and countless others many hardships. I know from first hand accounts the tragedies and the story of how my family fled Poland at the start of the war. |
| Queenrockyou 08.11.2007 16:25 |
Thanks a lot, because it was becoming funky right here. 't was a little more disco on the Cologne MP3 thread anyway. Nice move from Joe to stop this, and recognize it was a little too much. It was the best thing to do. Now, kill Gym Bitch. Oops sorry! just joking! I meant, prevent him doing that thing, no excuses if he does not want to. Anyway he'll probably be back with some good joke with another name. Not ready for the next laugh anyway. Olivier, France. |
| The Real Wizard 08.11.2007 16:35 |
YourValentine wrote: Thank you, josedequeso I appreciate it (I don't appreciate the "fuck off", though :). I did not see Gym Bitch's post and I wasn't aware he was Mike. I don't know what Nazi propaganda you are referring to, I went back in this thread and I did not find any posts by Mike Anyway, I would like to solve the situation but I do not know how. In the mean time I saw the Cologne thread and I agree that it's a provocation by Mike to annoy Bob. I cannot delete the thread due to the rules set out by Richard but I'll ask Mike to remove the link as a favour to keep the peace on this board. This is not a good day for Queenzone.Indeed not. Thanks for making the effort. Much appreciated. |
| Mr. Scully 09.11.2007 03:22 |
Bob, who are the "European collectors" who place restrictions on the records? I'd be curious to know. For example if we speak about my Queen live recordings, the only restrictions (I can think of) were set by Mariano Bryner (Drammen + Offenbach I think) and a Japanese collector (Yamaguchi). That's 1x South America and 1x Asia ;-) There may be more "restricted" recordings in my collection (I don't remember - I don't really trade anymore these days) but I don't think any of those restrictions were set by a European trader. (Of course, those various WWRY afterparties and other special events are unfortunately a different issue). Also, I think it's definitely not true that the US tapers don't share because of the MP3 community. If they post torrents on Dime, it's because they're not aware of QueenZone. For example I have recorded Deep Purple in Prague. I just gave the recording to some Czech DP fans and didn't really care about it but if I wanted to post it online myself, I wouldn't bother to search for a DP website, I would post on Dime too (and I wouldn't give a damn if anybody converts it to MP3 or not). |
| pittrek 09.11.2007 04:16 |
Mr. Scully wrote: Bob, who are the "European collectors" who place restrictions on the records? I'd be curious to know. For example if we speak about my Queen live recordings, the only restrictions (I can think of) were set by Mariano Bryner (Drammen + Offenbach I think) and a Japanese collector (Yamaguchi). That's 1x South America and 1x Asia ;-) There may be more "restricted" recordings in my collection (I don't remember - I don't really trade anymore these days) but I don't think any of those restrictions were set by a European trader. (Of course, those various WWRY afterparties and other special events are unfortunately a different issue). Also, I think it's definitely not true that the US tapers don't share because of the MP3 community. If they post torrents on Dime, it's because they're not aware of QueenZone. For example I have recorded Deep Purple in Prague. I just gave the recording to some Czech DP fans and didn't really care about it but if I wanted to post it online myself, I wouldn't bother to search for a DP website, I would post on Dime too (and I wouldn't give a damn if anybody converts it to MP3 or not).Kurna chlape to si nemohol dat DP aj mne ? :)) But not everybody is the careless type, many people do care what happens with "their" recordings. I'm one of them |
| theravenstroke 09.11.2007 09:25 |
Six pages to discuss about people who likes more FLAC than MP3 ? O.o It's seems that some collectors need a girlfriend... |
| Rick 09.11.2007 09:45 |
theravenstroke wrote: Six pages to discuss about people who likes more FLAC than MP3 ? O.o It's seems that some collectors need a girlfriend...Fact: a forum is made for discussions. Strange, isn't it? BTW, Bob, I'm with you on this one (referring to the Gym Bitch topic) |
| Jeroen 09.11.2007 10:03 |
It's naive to think that a ban on mp3 or some sort of moderation on preservation of quality would mean an end to the 'hoarding' of uncirculated material. (And that goes for collectors/tapers from ALL continents concerned with all kinds of bands!) Some 'general tapers' are concerned with the issues of keeping their recordings lossless, yes. But te 'hoarding' by collectors/tapers that are mostly 'into' one band in particular, has totally different reasons. Those recordings would not be shared even if it were multi-dimensional-5.1-DTS-surround-3D-iMaxc-High Definition blablabla. Not in here, not on Dime, not on TTD, not even in your mailbox! |
| Nummer2 09.11.2007 10:54 |
About 2 years ago, at a well-known bootleg website, I uploaded files that were FLAC format, reencoded from lossy files. Unfortunately that happened twice in one month, so I was banned. Guess where I had those files from ... I was too lazy to check before uploading, you might say that's my fault, but anyway, since then I'm aware of that issue. MP3 is fine, but unfortunately some people are either too dumb or too careless to deal with it properly. |
| The Real Wizard 09.11.2007 11:07 |
Mr. Scully wrote: Bob, who are the "European collectors" who place restrictions on the records? I'd be curious to know.There are plenty of them. You are able to mention Mariano since he is "retired", but you of all people know that naming names of active collectors just isn't done publically, or even privately, in most cases. I wish it could be otherwise, but since other people play the game, unfortunately I have to do the same. Also, I think it's definitely not true that the US tapers don't share because of the MP3 community.Well, I know for a fact that it's true. I wouldn't give a damn if anybody converts it to MP3 or not).And you're perfectly entitled to hold that opinion. But there are plenty of people who do care. I know of three recordings from the 70s that will never be shared because of this website (one of them is purely based on the Dallas 78 mp3 share). Jeroen wrote: It's naive to think that a ban on mp3 or some sort of moderation on preservation of quality would mean an end to the 'hoarding' of uncirculated material.I never said it would put an end to hoarding. But as I've said countless times before, the fact that this website has no quality standards is the reason why many recordings are still under wraps, and probably always will be. |
| Jeroen 09.11.2007 11:47 |
SirGH said:
I never said it would put an end to hoarding. But as I've said countless times before, the fact that this website has no quality standards is the reason why many recordings are still under wraps, and probably always will be.
]
==================================== 'Some', yes, but definately not 'many'. Like *I* have said countless times before, the vast majority is still in wraps (and unknown to even the most active collectors/traders) for totally different reasons. |
| Nummer2 09.11.2007 12:17 |
I'd be glad to have just ONE more Queen show from the 70s. I'd even deny the existence of the MP3 format to achieve this. |