| dudley-fufkin 7834 03.02.2006 13:14 |
Has anyone seen the news today? Hundreds of muslims protesting because of some cartoons in the paper. Well if you dont like them and cant take a joke, fuck off to a muslim country to live, I hate all this crap, muslims going on and on about british people, they need to accept our ways and live like british people if they want to live here. I'm fine with that, but when they go on and on about death to the west and all that, thats where I get a problem. i wouldnt go over to muslimland and say "death to the east" I'd be shot. Its about time we shot muslims on the spot when they preach about "death to the west". |
| PieterMC 03.02.2006 13:22 |
Dudley-Fufkin wrote: Its about time we shot muslims on the spot when they preach about "death to the west".Let me know how that works out for you... |
| Lester Burnham 03.02.2006 13:31 |
...what the fuck? |
| Sonia Doris 03.02.2006 13:37 |
I love it when people are tolerant! ^,^ |
| Freya is quietly judging you. 03.02.2006 13:39 |
Dudley-Fufkin wrote: Has anyone seen the news today? Hundreds of muslims protesting because of some cartoons in the paper. Well if you dont like them and cant take a joke, fuck off to a muslim country to live, I hate all this crap, muslims going on and on about british people, they need to accept our ways and live like british people if they want to live here. I'm fine with that, but when they go on and on about death to the west and all that, thats where I get a problem. i wouldnt go over to muslimland and say "death to the east" I'd be shot. Its about time we shot muslims on the spot when they preach about "death to the west".You are very ignorant. |
| John S Stuart 03.02.2006 14:05 |
<font color =#CC00FF>***Marial-B*** wrote: He only has a nut as a brain... what would you expect???link To be fair, it is a bit alarming to have a protest in London, where the marchers are carrying banners which say... "Death to all Westerners" or "Behead Europeans", if that is NOT frightening, what is? |
| Sonia Doris 03.02.2006 14:12 |
I'll tell you what's more frightening: the hate itself, and that humans can't get over stereotypes and misconceptions when they view the others... :( It's more sad than frightening actually... |
| The Fairy King 03.02.2006 14:15 |
<font color =#CC00FF>***Marial-B*** wrote: He only has a nut as a brain... what would you expect???mmmmmmm....nuts *drool* |
| flash! 28068 03.02.2006 14:21 |
<font color=#CC0066>Sonia Doris</font> wrote: I'll tell you what's more frightening: the hate itself, and that humans can't get over stereotypes and misconceptions when they view the others... :( It's more sad than frightening actually...Couldn't of said it better, darling! |
| Sonia Doris 03.02.2006 14:29 |
<font color=red>Flash! wrote:thanxies :D<font color=#CC0066>Sonia Doris</font> wrote: I'll tell you what's more frightening: the hate itself, and that humans can't get over stereotypes and misconceptions when they view the others... :( It's more sad than frightening actually...Couldn't of said it better, darling! And what is worse about that is that you can't do anything to stop it, because people are too damn ignorant to wake up. |
| Micrówave 03.02.2006 16:05 |
Dudley-Fufkin wrote: they need to accept our ways and live like british people if they want to live here.So... Death to the East!!! Right? |
| Sherwood Forest 03.02.2006 16:20 |
muslims have always been nuts. not all of them just a few outspoken ones just as in any country |
| The Fairy King 03.02.2006 16:35 |
All religions have fanatics. All boards have idiots. |
| Sonia Doris 03.02.2006 17:08 |
<font color=#C5150>The Fairy King</font> wrote: All religions have fanatics. All boards have idiots.And all countries have extremists. u forgot this xD |
| Mr.Jingles 03.02.2006 17:38 |
JamieSureWould<br><font size=1>QOQOW wrote: muslims have always been nuts. not all of them just a few outspoken ones just as in any countryAll religious people have always been nuts. It's not just the Muslims. |
| bryans permed poodle 15069 03.02.2006 18:24 |
Dudley-Fufkin wrote: Has anyone seen the news today? Hundreds of muslims protesting because of some cartoons in the paper. Well if you dont like them and cant take a joke, fuck off to a muslim country to live, I hate all this crap, muslims going on and on about british people, they need to accept our ways and live like british people if they want to live here. I'm fine with that, but when they go on and on about death to the west and all that, thats where I get a problem. i wouldnt go over to muslimland and say "death to the east" I'd be shot. Its about time we shot muslims on the spot when they preach about "death to the west".I partly agree they haven't got any real sense of humour have they ? They always take thinks so personally. Out of all religions it does seem ISLAM is the most extreme and they are always complaining about something whether it be dress code, mosques etc.. I think Islam needs to be modernised as it's ideas do not relate to the 21st century. |
| deleted user 03.02.2006 19:01 |
I happen to agree with him. It's about time someone woke up and said 'wait a minute...you threaten me? then fuck you!' |
| The Real Wizard 03.02.2006 19:40 |
Dudley-Fufkin wrote: Has anyone seen the news today? Hundreds of muslims protesting because of some cartoons in the paper. Well if you dont like them and cant take a joke, fuck off to a muslim country to live, I hate all this crap, muslims going on and on about british people, they need to accept our ways and live like british people if they want to live here. I'm fine with that, but when they go on and on about death to the west and all that, thats where I get a problem. i wouldnt go over to muslimland and say "death to the east" I'd be shot.Actually, I fully agree. Does that make me intolerant too? I am by no means a conservative person, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Immigrants are coming to first world countries, complaining about the way things are done. We are the ones who choose to accomodate them. They aren't the ones accomodating us. If immigrants don't like it, then they can go back to their third world country where things were assumingly better, yes? We all know that Iran, Iraq, and Jordan have equal rights, freedom of speech, education for all, clean water, and a 90% employment rate. I digress. In my city, there is a huge light display every December saying: "Hamilton wishes you a Merry Christmas". The muslims and various other minorities pleaded for it to be changed to "happy holidays". One year they succeeded. I can't believe my city gave in once, but they have since changed it back, thank goodness. My country was founded on two principles: the French revolution, and Christianity. I am all for questioning tradition when the time is right, but when the majority agree with the tradition, a minority has no right to change the tradition for religious reasons. But before someone interprets me as being ignorant for seeming to say that minorities shouldn't have a voice, I'll give a different example: Gay people are a minority, but for humane reasons, we are choosing to begin accepting them as equals, even though the majority has yet to agree. But in due time they will. Any time throughout history when a prejudice was questioned, it eventually died. Women and blacks are now equal in most of the west (some parts of the USA still have some way to go with the latter). The same will happen for gay people. And so, when the majority of people think Christmas shouldn't exist anymore, then we will change that too. But it hasn't happened yet, so a minority group has no right to come here and denounce the set ways of the country who chose to accomdate them during their time of need. If they don't like it, then they can go back home. Its about time we shot muslims on the spot when they preach about "death to the west".But no, I wouldn't go that far... Otherwise, I fully agree with the topic starter's comments. Bryans Permed Pants wrote: I think Islam needs to be modernised as it's ideas do not relate to the 21st century.As opposed to Christianity? With the exception of the United Church, since when have they been with the times? There are still Christians who make statements about their beliefs that ancient alchemists would find embarassing. |
| bryans permed poodle 15069 03.02.2006 20:13 |
There would be more peace in the world if they just BANNED relegion. Who gives a fuck anyway when your dead your dead. As long as they have SKY TV in the afterlife to watch PREMIERSHIP football I couldn't give a shit. Up the Baggies!! |
| The Real Wizard 03.02.2006 20:34 |
Bryans Permed Pants wrote: There would be more peace in the world if they just BANNED relegion. Who gives a fuck anyway when your dead your dead. As long as they have SKY TV in the afterlife to watch PREMIERSHIP football I couldn't give a shit. Up the Baggies!!If religion was banned, I guarantee you, there would be more war then ever in the past. Would you ban Buddhism too, a practice which cultivates peace above all else? If not, then how would one pick and choose which faiths to ban? Come on, it's totally not practical. |
| .DeaconJohn. 03.02.2006 21:49 |
Yeah its really rather hilarious how their response to a cartoon that labels them as extremests is to threaten to cut our heads off. Well guys, youve really proved the papers wrong havent you... And the police seem to be powerless to stop them. Although its worthwhile remembering that these assholes do not represent all Muslims. |
| Mr.Jingles 03.02.2006 22:04 |
Someone very wise here said... "Roger said that religions fucks people up, but it seems like it's something more like people fucking up religion". |
| Music Man 03.02.2006 23:37 |
Bryans Permed Pants wrote: There would be more peace in the world if they just BANNED relegion.I hate it when people make such blind, unfounded judgments. |
| Lester Burnham 04.02.2006 00:11 |
Music Man wrote:You expect anything profound from a poster who bases his entire gimmick on spamming a messageboard?Bryans Permed Pants wrote: There would be more peace in the world if they just BANNED relegion.I hate it when people make such blind, unfounded judgments. |
| Music Man 04.02.2006 00:19 |
Lester Burnham wrote:The sad thing is I hear the same thing coming from the better half of the board all the time.Music Man wrote:You expect anything profound from a poster who bases his entire gimmick on spamming a messageboard?Bryans Permed Pants wrote: There would be more peace in the world if they just BANNED relegion.I hate it when people make such blind, unfounded judgments. |
| jasen101 04.02.2006 02:52 |
they should all take a fuckin bath and clean their dirty rags instead of always threatening the civilized world. I'm not a fan of religion...but Islam is about the most retarded, backward-thinking bullshit religion of them all. They make Southern baptists look like new age thinkers. |
| pma 04.02.2006 03:32 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:Good post, I share a lot of the same feelings towards this and many other similar issues.Dudley-Fufkin wrote: Has anyone seen the news today? Hundreds of muslims protesting because of some cartoons in the paper. Well if you dont like them and cant take a joke, fuck off to a muslim country to live, I hate all this crap, muslims going on and on about british people, they need to accept our ways and live like british people if they want to live here. I'm fine with that, but when they go on and on about death to the west and all that, thats where I get a problem. i wouldnt go over to muslimland and say "death to the east" I'd be shot.Actually, I fully agree. Does that make me intolerant too? I am by no means a conservative person, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Immigrants are coming to first world countries, complaining about the way things are done. We are the ones who choose to accomodate them. They aren't the ones accomodating us. If immigrants don't like it, then they can go back to their third world country where things were assumingly better, yes? We all know that Iran, Iraq, and Jordan have equal rights, freedom of speech, education for all, clean water, and a 90% employment rate. I digress. In my city, there is a huge light display every December saying: "Hamilton wishes you a Merry Christmas". The muslims and various other minorities pleaded for it to be changed to "happy holidays". One year they succeeded. I can't believe my city gave in once, but they have since changed it back, thank goodness. My country was founded on two principles: the French revolution, and Christianity. I am all for questioning tradition when the time is right, but when the majority agree with the tradition, a minority has no right to change the tradition for religious reasons. But before someone interprets me as being ignorant for seeming to say that minorities shouldn't have a voice, I'll give a different example: Gay people are a minority, but for humane reasons, we are choosing to begin accepting them as equals, even though the majority has yet to agree. But in due time they will. Any time throughout history when a prejudice was questioned, it eventually died. Women and blacks are now equal in most of the west (some parts of the USA still have some way to go with the latter). The same will happen for gay people. And so, when the majority of people think Christmas shouldn't exist anymore, then we will change that too. But it hasn't happened yet, so a minority group has no right to come here and denounce the set ways of the country who chose to accomdate them during their time of need. If they don't like it, then they can go back home.Its about time we shot muslims on the spot when they preach about "death to the west".But no, I wouldn't go that far... Otherwise, I fully agree with the topic starter's comments.Bryans Permed Pants wrote: I think Islam needs to be modernised as it's ideas do not relate to the 21st century.As opposed to Christianity? With the exception of the United Church, since when have they been with the times? There are still Christians who make statements about their beliefs that ancient alchemists would find embarassing. This whole cartoon-tomfoolery has gotten way out of hand. And I'm in awe everytime someone in any country with a Christian majority renames "christmas something" into "holiday something". That's just extremely dumb, dumb beyond all reasonable humane standards of stupidity. |
| YourValentine 04.02.2006 04:19 |
I agree with Sir GH. I am also pretty much fed up with being told that my culture is hell by people who do not live here or immigrated to Europe. Funny how easy it was to start this "culture war". It only needed a paper nobody had ever heard of before and a Danish Muslim leader who made a propaganda trip to the Middle East in order to incite the scandal he failed to start in Denmark. Surely, nobody freaked out because HE made use of his freedom of speech. Just imagine a Christian person in Saudi Arabia starting a hate campaign in Europ because he has issues in Saudi Arabia. I do not approve of insulting anybody's feeling or religion but things have to be in perspective. I really do expect that the EU defends the right of a paper to print whatever they want. Of course we know that most Muslims live in dictatorships and do not understand the concept of free speech but it's time that we stand up for our values. It's time to stop mistaking permissive attitude for liberal attitude. In this context I understand the papers who reprint the cartoons to make a solidarity statement. We should not give in and put pressure on journalists because the King of Jordan does not approve. |
| deleted user 04.02.2006 04:34 |
I agree with Bob. Really, when people from other nations come to this country I think it's nice. We'll have a multicultural society, in wich people can live in peace together. But the point is these immigrants do not assimilate (not all offcourse, really not all). I mean in Holland there was a protest to change the date of a old dutch tradition called "Sinterklaas" to another date, because it would be on the same day as some celebration day of immigrants. I mean when people come to a country, I think not only the country has to do thinks for the immigrants (a warm welcome is nice, I mean we build muslim churches and all). But really the immigrants should assimilate. And if you'd rather stick to your own costums, then do that. But don't annoy anyone, and especially start protesting! I mean what's the point in going to the western saying "The western should be dead." If you don't like us, fucking go home. I hate our society as well, but I am also not appearring on the streats saying "Our society should be dead." I mean it sucks being here, but I think the southern country's suck even more. |
| The Mir@cle 04.02.2006 04:59 |
<font color=black>Dennis Daja<h6>QZs God wrote: I agree with Bob. Really, when people from other nations come to this country I think it's nice. We'll have a multicultural society, in wich people can live in peace together. But the point is these immigrants do not assimilate (not all offcourse, really not all). I mean in Holland there was a protest to change the date of a old dutch tradition called "Sinterklaas" to another date, because it would be on the same day as some celebration day of immigrants. I mean when people come to a country, I think not only the country has to do thinks for the immigrants (a warm welcome is nice, I mean we build muslim churches and all). But really the immigrants should assimilate. And if you'd rather stick to your own costums, then do that. But don't annoy anyone, and especially start protesting! I mean what's the point in going to the western saying "The western should be dead." If you don't like us, fucking go home. I hate our society as well, but I am also not appearring on the streats saying "Our society should be dead." I mean it sucks being here, but I think the southern country's suck even more.I partly agree with you Dennis. Immigrants should assimilate, but it's us that makes assimilation hard for them. We have too many prejudices about Muslims, which makes it hard for them to get a good position in our society. Those people don't get a fair chance and have no way to point out there opinion, other than protesting (or using violence). |
| YourValentine 04.02.2006 06:49 |
"Those people don't get a fair chance and have no way to point out there opinion, other than protesting (or using violence)." I have to disagree here strongly. It's obvious that we do not have the same chances to make our opinion heard. When I write an email to my representative it's well possible, he just does not care. But that does not give me the right to burn flags and send death threats, really. Where will we end if we allow a minority to act that way? Everybody has to obey the laws in our countries in the same way. If you do not like a movie or feel offended, you can voice protest in a peaceful demonstation, you can boycott the movie, you can send letters to your paper but you surely cannot kill the director. Luckily, most Muslims in Europe do understand this or we would have a huge problem. In Europe it's not against the law to publish satire about religious topics. It's also not forbidden to publish images of the prophet Muhammad. You can think it's bad taste (I do think it's bad taste) but you cannot put pressure on the paper because they acted within the rules defined by the law of their country. If we give in to the demand of Muslims to self censorship, our freedom of speech will soon be gone. By the way, when I look at masked terrorists storming the EU office in Gazah to protest against the cartoons or when I look at all the death threats voiced by Muslims because they feel insulted, I have to say this says more about the reality of Islamistic terror than any cartoon ever could say. Just right now two Germans are held hostage in Iraq and the video the kidnappers sent shows them with guns in front of a banner which says they are fighting a "holy war". As yet I have not seen any mass protests in the Muslim world against abusing the name of Islam for such acts. People should really put things into perspective. |
| Freya is quietly judging you. 04.02.2006 07:48 |
This is my 1000th post. |
| deleted user 04.02.2006 09:00 |
you can see whats coming next tho cant you, large scale terrorist attacks by al queda and bin laden, they will have taken this too far, be planning an attack in what i can guess the main european countries, like UK london-France Paris-Germany Berlin etc, Bin Laden and Al Queda will use this as a good excuse for retailiation on the west, fuck with muslims and we will pay dearly, i can just see lots of innnocent deaths coming soon and it really scares me, specially wiht the muslims displayin boards in london like they have been doin, cut off our heads and kill all europeans? it really scares me to go out in to newcastle at night now.... what has this world come to?..... |
| deleted user 04.02.2006 11:31 |
Not all muslims are like that. |
| deleted user 04.02.2006 12:14 |
if you were talking to be ther,e then i know i didnt say they were, infact i never said muslims would i sed AL Queda and Bin Laden, they look for any gd excuses to do things like that and to me this is a pretty gud excuse for them... |
| Haystacks Calhoun 04.02.2006 12:15 |
.DeaconJohn. wrote: Yeah its really rather hilarious how their response to a cartoon that labels them as extremests is to threaten to cut our heads off. Well guys, youve really proved the papers wrong havent you... And the police seem to be powerless to stop them. Although its worthwhile remembering that these assholes do not represent all Muslims.Absolutely 100% correct. |
| Sherwood Forest 04.02.2006 12:40 |
Mr.Jingles wrote:i know that was my kind of AIM for the last sentence :SJamieSureWould<br><font size=1>QOQOW wrote: muslims have always been nuts. not all of them just a few outspoken ones just as in any countryAll religious people have always been nuts. It's not just the Muslims. |
| Saint Jiub 04.02.2006 14:51 |
double post |
| Saint Jiub 04.02.2006 14:53 |
It is nice to have the focus off the USA for a while. Israel must be laughing their ass off. Maybe Pat Robertson is breathing a sigh of relief. |
| deleted user 04.02.2006 18:43 |
The Mir@cle wrote:I knew at the end I forgot to write something, and that is the thing you wrote. I was like "Shit what did I wanted to write more?"<font color=black>Dennis Daja<h6>QZs God wrote: I agree with Bob. Really, when people from other nations come to this country I think it's nice. We'll have a multicultural society, in wich people can live in peace together. But the point is these immigrants do not assimilate (not all offcourse, really not all). I mean in Holland there was a protest to change the date of a old dutch tradition called "Sinterklaas" to another date, because it would be on the same day as some celebration day of immigrants. I mean when people come to a country, I think not only the country has to do thinks for the immigrants (a warm welcome is nice, I mean we build muslim churches and all). But really the immigrants should assimilate. And if you'd rather stick to your own costums, then do that. But don't annoy anyone, and especially start protesting! I mean what's the point in going to the western saying "The western should be dead." If you don't like us, fucking go home. I hate our society as well, but I am also not appearring on the streats saying "Our society should be dead." I mean it sucks being here, but I think the southern country's suck even more.I partly agree with you Dennis. Immigrants should assimilate, but it's us that makes assimilation hard for them. We have too many prejudices about Muslims, which makes it hard for them to get a good position in our society. Those people don't get a fair chance and have no way to point out there opinion, other than protesting (or using violence). |
| deleted user 04.02.2006 18:47 |
BTW, I dunno what they are trying to get done with these attacks (like the london subway and 9-11), but if it is an attack against the kapitalistic western society I doubt wether I disagree with them. I mean, they are doing attacks on our society to influence us. And America is constantly making war to get influence their society. But no matter what, I am always against the falling of harmless victims. |
| The Real Wizard 05.02.2006 02:42 |
YourValentine wrote: I agree with Sir GH. I am also pretty much fed up with being told that my culture is hell by people who do not live here or immigrated to Europe. Funny how easy it was to start this "culture war". It only needed a paper nobody had ever heard of before and a Danish Muslim leader who made a propaganda trip to the Middle East in order to incite the scandal he failed to start in Denmark. Surely, nobody freaked out because HE made use of his freedom of speech. Just imagine a Christian person in Saudi Arabia starting a hate campaign in Europ because he has issues in Saudi Arabia. I do not approve of insulting anybody's feeling or religion but things have to be in perspective. I really do expect that the EU defends the right of a paper to print whatever they want. Of course we know that most Muslims live in dictatorships and do not understand the concept of free speech but it's time that we stand up for our values. It's time to stop mistaking permissive attitude for liberal attitude. In this context I understand the papers who reprint the cartoons to make a solidarity statement. We should not give in and put pressure on journalists because the King of Jordan does not approve.Completely agree, Barbara. In today's newspaper, they interviewed a couple of store-owners in Toronto who are Muslim, and they have chosen to boycott any Danish-made products from their stores. They said they have no problem losing business by promoting their unhappiness of the way Mohammad was portrayed in the comics. Another perfect example of when religion goes a slight bit too far...?? |
| Serry... 05.02.2006 03:15 |
Would you ever go to meet with a local boxing champion with no brain in the head and tell him "You are a pathetic motherf**er!"? I don't think so. And it's not a problem of freedom of speech, it's a problem of your own safety. So question is very simple: what is need to make provocations to people who don't understand your sense of humour? Just to prove that you have freedom of speech? There you have it now, enjoy... And then you say about how bloody is Islam, please don't forget about Inquisition and some other things... I'm out of all religions and I don't care, but it's funny to read how catholics blame muslims for blood and deaths... |
| The Real Wizard 05.02.2006 03:27 |
Serry... wrote: And then you say about how bloody is Islam, please don't forget about Inquisition and some other things... I'm out of all religions and I don't care, but it's funny to read how catholics blame muslims for blood and deaths...Yeah Serry, you're so right. Here's something for everyone to read, especially those who think Muslims are the "most nutty" religion. I've always disagreed with people who make that statement anyway, but check out this article about a group of fundamentalist Christians in Guatemala: link |
| YourValentine 05.02.2006 04:12 |
"Would you ever go to meet with a local boxing champion with no brain in the head and tell him "You are a pathetic motherf**er!"? I don't think so. And it's not a problem of freedom of speech, it's a problem of your own safety. So question is very simple: what is need to make provocations to people who don't understand your sense of humour? Just to prove that you have freedom of speech? There you have it now, enjoy..." Freedom of speech is not worth anything when you censor yourself for fear. We cannot allow people from other parts of the world to tell us what we can write in our papers and what we can't. Of course, the situation is very unpleasant and it's also unnecessary because it was stupid to print these cartoons. But the Danish paper had a right to print it and we must defend that right - in particular if we think it's stupid. To use your example: muslim extremists are not the local box champion and I don't want them to become the local box champion. I definitely do not want to live in a world where killers and people who are willing to burn embassies decide what I can say ad what I cannot say. It would also be a bad signal for all the millions of moderate muslims who think the whole thing is blown out of proportions. It's like telling a rape victim that it's her own fault that she was raped because she was in the streets after midnight. It's the right of everybody to move freely in my country and when a woman is raped or a man is mugged it's not their fault, it's the fault of the offender. You can stay inside your house and not get raped/mugged but then the street will belong to the rapist and that cannot be the solution. Of course there are many Christians in the world who abuse their religion, too. We have to speak against all kind of oppression and crimes in the name of any religion everywhere in the world. It just was not the topic right now. Just as the discrimination against Christians in Muslim countries is not the topic right now but there are many examples, too. |
| Serry... 05.02.2006 04:45 |
As I wrote - IMO - it's a not problem of freedom of speech. It's a problem of your own safety. I have another example: when you're walking from one side of the street to the other side - do you look around on the case if cars drives somewhere near you or not? You can say "It's my right to walk on the streets, I don't want cars to tell me where I can walk and where I can't!". Okay, it's up for you. But if you wanna stay alive - you have to think what you're doing and you have to be careful. You can smoke near oil, you can sleep on the railway etc. etc. etc. - it's your right, but you won't do it. Bad examples, I know, but I just want to show that it's not only problem of freedom of speech... Take a look how many people in USA have guns at homes! They don't have freedom of speech? They have, but they want to defend themselves. There are thievs, there are killers, etc. etc. It's life. If freedom of speech is freedom for writting stupid things, drawing stupid cartoons and publish facts about sizes of tits of celebrities, then it's not a freedom of speech - it's an anarchy. I lived in USSR and I know the price of freedom to say what you want say and I see now how people in my country use this right... This world is full of stupid and brutal people, and since it's their right to live in this world - only way to us - ignore them. If you know that there are dangerous streets in your town, but you still go there... Well, yes - your government, your police have to do something, but if they do nothing and you can no to go there - would you still go? What for? They don't understand our sense of humour, okay, we won't joke with them. You don't like BPP topics - you ignore them. Same here. |
| Sonia Doris 05.02.2006 05:07 |
Mari, I know what u mean, about moving and being treated like an immigrant. I know it very well, because I come from Romania, a country that is not seen very well in the world at the moment. When I was in Spain, I was even afraid of speaking my own language (on the phone, with other people - my Romanian mates told me so from their own experience), even saying where I come from. I was witness to a very harsh campaign (posters, pamphlets) against immigrants (of any kind: Latino, Eastern European, Muslims, etc.), a think like "Kick'em all out!". I know most EU countries think like this (they have some reasons, I guess, but there are groups who take it to the extreme, like in the example I gave). I also had the chance to live in a multi-cultural, multi-religious, multi-rasial environment at SLU (Saint Louis Madrid Campus), where I was a student for 1 year, and learned some stuff I never could've in an European University (I mean there were all kinds of people, from all kinds of backgrounds, usually the first conversations would be "Where do you come from? How is it there?"), where the majority is usually from the country itself (I see it here for example). I am positive there can be solutions, and chasing all the immigrants out isn't one of them... |
| Fairy 05.02.2006 06:16 |
Well, Muslims are better than us. They don't make jokes about other religions. They just go ahead and kille the infidels, as they recently did in Iraq where they burned down Catholic churches. That's much better! The cartoon I liked the most is the one about the virgins. The terrorists get to Heaven and they discover that Paradise has run out of virgins. HAHAHAHA! Now isn't that funny?? Those idiots have killed thousands of innocents, and they can't even fuck in heaven!!! |
| Fairy 05.02.2006 06:23 |
And btw, it's funny how Islam condemns the West for our music, art and way of life that is so much impregnated with sex. They should shut the fuck up, since they're even willing to kill in order to have an orgie with virgins in heaven. The Catholic religion never mentions sex in Heaven. Just a thought LOL LOL I'm so sick and tired of this politically correct. Just remember that the "turn the other cheek" principle is not really followed by many in the West, even though many love to preach about it. We are tolerant, we want to get along, we even blame ourselves for most things. But there's a limit. Muslims should be careful not to go beyond that limit. |
| Serry... 05.02.2006 06:28 |
Fairy wrote: Well, They don't make jokes about other religions. They just go ahead and kille the infidels, as they recently did in Iraq where they burned down Catholic churches.For your fun: link link link link link "they're saying now it never happened..." |
| YourValentine 05.02.2006 06:41 |
Serry, your examples - crossing the streets without minding the cars etc - do not quite apply to the issue. We all have to follow some rules and use common sense in our lives. But we have to defend our rights each and every day because they are not for free and if we don't defend them, nobody else will. "If freedom of speech is freedom for writting stupid things, drawing stupid cartoons and publish facts about sizes of tits of celebrities, then it's not a freedom of speech - it's an anarchy." I disagree. It's freedom of speech - even if I do not like it or if I feel offended. I feel offended each day but I insist that people have the right to publish stupid things as long as it's within the limits of the law. There is no quality control, you cannot say: what insults my intelligence must not be published. Freedom of speech is for everybody. I don't know about your country but the democratic tradition is not too long and sure the law can be improved and people will learn. |
| Serry... 05.02.2006 07:05 |
Yes, this is what I wrote. If you know that such pictures won't help (at least) in our relations with East - why do you post them? Because you're free? So again as I wrote - okay, you proved that you're free, but now Europeans must leave Islamic countries as soon as it's possible. One stupid picture = broken lives of thousands European (not muslims!) people. For me it seems like stupid cock fight - whose ego is bigger - Eastern or Western. One defends their right to say what they want, other defends their right to defend their own religion, because of... one picture in small local newspaper. Very nice. Good price. Is it 21th century or what? Should we start war with UK if Mr Blair would say that he doesn't like Russian accent of our Mr Putin?! I'm not discussing about religions or immigrants, I discuss only about the price of posting (and then re-posting in all newspapers) something silly, provocative and useless. It's like open thread on QZ with "Do you like Bush or not?" and then leave the board for few months while we would be fighting here and hate each other. |
| YourValentine 05.02.2006 08:05 |
I don't think we disagree in thinking that it was stupid to publish these cartoons. The question is - should our government interfere? Of course not. Should we censor ourselves in saying what we think for fear of such consequences we see now? I don't think so. What would be next - we cannot publish the pictures of a cow because Hindus think they are holy animals? There are always differences in culture and respect must be a two way affair. It's against all international law in ALL countries who are members of the UN to torch embassies and threaten members of UN offices with guns. This has to stop. Some cartoons in a paper are no excuse for such actions. Mainly when we consider that most of the people who torched the embassies in Syria and Lebanon probably never saw the cartoons, they are just used by Islamistic groups to fuel the flames. You cannot lay the blame on the journnalists - such hatred has longer roots. |
| Fairy 05.02.2006 08:20 |
Serry, what you say is a bit dangerous. You seem to suggest that we should limit our freedoms so we won't risk being killed. OK, so let's stop going to Christian Church, or let's hide from the world that we're Jewish, or, even better, let's start wearing the Burka and pray five times a day to Allah. This way we won't run any risk...................... The problem with this strategy is that many are not willing to give up their ideas and ideals just to save their asses. I'm not the bravest person in the world, yet what you suggest is very very annoying. Ps. Why do so few on this board condemn the recent killings in Christian Churches by Muslims? Always ready to criticize the victim and to defend the butcher?? |
| Serry... 05.02.2006 08:36 |
"Serry, what you say is a bit dangerous." Of course! I don't say something like "let's bomb them all!", I say "let's be patient and tolerant" therefore I'm a dangerous person. "You seem to suggest that we should limit our freedoms so we won't risk being killed." And you seem to suggest that muslims should shut up and be happy with that we will give them freedom of speech, some bombs on their heads, cartoons of their prophets and the Internet. You again are trying to come with your culture, with your moral into other countries and other nations... You don't want to limit your freedom and want to be dead because of some religious fanatics? Okay, it's up for you as I wrote. You wanna fight for your rights? They wanna fight for their rights. Welcome to the peaceful world! "OK, so let's stop going to Christian Church, or let's hide from the world that we're Jewish, or, even better, let's start wearing the Burka and pray five times a day to Allah. This way we won't run any risk......................" Muslims don't force you to do it. Islam respect Jesus Christ as a prophet as I remember. "The problem with this strategy is that many are not willing to give up their ideas and ideals just to save their asses." Problem is that too many people declares their ideals and ideas, but send someone else instead of themselves to die for these ideas and ideals. |
| Fairy 05.02.2006 10:13 |
Serry, I find your opinions, which many share, to be dangerous because in order not to disturb others you will let them control you. To you and those like you, some silly cartoons are more offensive than the actual killing and repression of others. I've never heard of Mosqs being burned down in the West after Christians have been murdered simply for their beliefs. This has happened only a few days ago. Western media simply reported what happened. No indignation, no violence on our part. And.....of course no apology by Muslims. Yes dear, your stance is dangerous. Soon you'll find that your political correctness was the biggest weapon against you/us. |
| John S Stuart 05.02.2006 10:17 |
ThomasQuinn wrote:Oh not at all Thomas, quite the reverse.What I find highly disturbingIs how similar the anti-Muslim sentiments today are to Europe's anti-Jewish stance before WWII. I wish I could post some of the televisual or press photographic images presented over here over the last few days. (I have conducted a Google search - but could not find any). I would be grateful if anyone else could post some of those derogatory images. Today: This is a group of extremist Muslims, freely marching in London, (their adopted homeland) waving banners like "behead the British", "You can run - but you can not hide, with 7/7 on your side" and "Death to all of Europe". They are the minority. These extremists are the terrorists who threaten our peaceful way of life and all we hold dear. And as Barry said earlier: "Looking in a paper yesterday I noticed a photograph of a very young child with a hat that said, "I love al-qaeda" at one of their protests. Why are the parents allowed to stay in our country when they are plainly supporting a terrorist group?" link I too saw the same pictures, but what frightened me was the way these children are being brought up and educated to hate and eventually kill - the land which feeds, and provides. After all the 7/7 bombers were BRITISH Muslims. Yesterday: The Nazis were the fanatical extremists - who attacked the peaceful & defenceless minorities (e.g.: Jews, homosexuals, gypsies or the handicapped). This was an ethnic cleansing of those who threatened the status quo. So although this extremism was also wrong, it was a case of over-protecting their way of life and all they held dear. Therefore, I find the reverse is true: "how similar the PRO-Muslim sentiments today are to Europe's anti-Jewish stance before WWII". |
| Serry... 05.02.2006 10:24 |
"Serry, I find your opinions, which many share, to be dangerous because in order not to disturb others you will let them control you." So we must control them before they will control us, right? "To you and those like you, some silly cartoons are more offensive than the actual killing and repression of others." You're too much overacting! I'm not a muslim, you know? I don't care about those cartoons. They were not reprinted in Russian newspapers, because our newspapers respect their Islamic readers. I wrote that this "freedom of speech" is not a reason to say everything you want to say and to insult everyone on this planet. "I've never heard of Mosqs being burned down in the West after Christians have been murdered simply for their beliefs." You ignore my links about Christian Church crimes... "And.....of course no apology by Muslims." Hitler was afraid of jews, he imagined that all blond young women will be sleeping with jews, how all Europeans will be wearing black jewish hats... Sounds similar to what's happens now... I agree with Thomas. Don't let first feelings get over you! This is how bloody wars are starting. "Soon you'll find that your political correctness was the biggest weapon against you/us." You found wrong target for your attacks. My country was followed by Islamic extremists since 18th century. Stop teaching me about what are terrorist attacks, what is the extremist Islam - I know it much better than you and I know it not from TV news! |
| Fairy 05.02.2006 10:47 |
So we must control them before they will control us, right? Serry, I didn't know you could control anyone with satire. You're too much overacting! I'm not a muslim, you know? I don't care about those cartoons. They were not reprinted in Russian newspapers, because our newspapers respect their Islamic readers. I wrote that this "freedom of speech" is not a reason to say everything you want to say and to insult everyone on this planet. There you go. If everybody in the world overreacted like this to every silly joke, there wouldn't be many still living in this world. There are cartoons and jokes about the Pope and Christians all the time. There are books full of them. Still no Christian is moaning and groaning and whining and destroying shops and killing people. Damit. You ignore my links about Christian Church crimes... You can't compare a bunch of criminals to a world-wide protest. Hitler was afraid of jews, he imagined that all blond young women will be sleeping with jews, how all Europeans will be wearing black jewish hats... Sounds similar to what's happens now. If we were living in the 1930s I would worry about the Nazis. Now we are in 2006, and now there's no need to worry about the Nazis. Now I am worried about the Muslims. |
| Serry... 05.02.2006 11:02 |
"Serry, I didn't know you could control anyone with satire." I didn't know you could control anyone with stupid banners with stupid words on them. "There you go. If everybody in the world overreacted like this to every silly joke, there wouldn't be many still living in this world." That's why they must stop to overact and we must stop to provocate them. "Still no Christian is moaning and groaning and whining and destroying shops and killing people." It's up for them. Muslims don't need to live how Christians lives and do what they're doing. "If we were living in the 1930s I would worry about the Nazis. Now we are in 2006, and now there's no need to worry about the Nazis. Now I am worried about the Muslims." ...and this is what Roger wrote his "Nazis 1994" about! |
| John S Stuart 05.02.2006 11:04 |
Serry: Although this thread is about Muslims - and can be viewed as anti-Muslim - I do NOT see it that way per say. What I see are a group of fanatics who are willing to detroy the rest of the world to promote their own interests. To me it is not important whether they are Muslim, Nazi, Bolshevik or Nationalists, but I can not allow myself to live in the fear of the bigoted intolerance of my freedom. You (with your particular history and background) should be the first to understand, and (hopefully) defend this point of view. |
| John S Stuart 05.02.2006 11:05 |
This thread should follow Serry's. What has happened to the order of the board? |
| John S Stuart 05.02.2006 11:06 |
Serry... wrote: "Serry, what you say is a bit dangerous." Of course! I don't say something like "let's bomb them all!", I say "let's be patient and tolerant" therefore I'm a dangerous person. "You seem to suggest that we should limit our freedoms so we won't risk being killed." And you seem to suggest that muslims should shut up and be happy with that we will give them freedom of speech, some bombs on their heads, cartoons of their prophets and the Internet. You again are trying to come with your culture, with your moral into other countries and other nations... You don't want to limit your freedom and want to be dead because of some religious fanatics? Okay, it's up for you as I wrote. You wanna fight for your rights? They wanna fight for their rights. Welcome to the peaceful world! "OK, so let's stop going to Christian Church, or let's hide from the world that we're Jewish, or, even better, let's start wearing the Burka and pray five times a day to Allah. This way we won't run any risk......................" Muslims don't force you to do it. Islam respect Jesus Christ as a prophet as I remember. "The problem with this strategy is that many are not willing to give up their ideas and ideals just to save their asses." Problem is that too many people declares their ideals and ideas, but send someone else instead of themselves to die for these ideas and ideals.Serry: Although this thread is about Muslims - and can be viewed as anti-Muslim - I do NOT see it that way per say. What I see are a group of fanatics who are willing to detroy the rest of the world to promote their own interests. To me it is not important whether they are Muslim, Nazi, Bolshevik or Nationalists, but I can not allow myself to live in the fear of the bigoted intolerance of my freedom. You (with your particular history and background) should be the first to understand, and (hopefully) defend this point of view. |
| Serry... 05.02.2006 11:15 |
John S Stuart wrote: What I see are a group of fanatics who are willing to detroy the rest of the world to promote their own interests. To me it is not important whether they are Muslim, Nazi, Bolshevik or Nationalists, but I can not allow myself to live in the fear of the bigoted intolerance of my freedom. You (with your particular history and background) should be the first to understand, and (hopefully) defend this point of view.That's why I say that we don't need to make some stupid provocations at least. This situation could be already over, but instead of that - we've got all European newspapers reprinting those cartoons. What for? Did it help you to feel yourself more safely? Those fanatics won't fight with journalists, they'll do it with civilians, but because of some stupid newspapers' jokes. |
| John S Stuart 05.02.2006 12:09 |
Serry... wrote:Serry: I agree with you.John S Stuart wrote: What I see are a group of fanatics who are willing to detroy the rest of the world to promote their own interests. To me it is not important whether they are Muslim, Nazi, Bolshevik or Nationalists, but I can not allow myself to live in the fear of the bigoted intolerance of my freedom. You (with your particular history and background) should be the first to understand, and (hopefully) defend this point of view.That's why I say that we don't need to make some stupid provocations at least. This situation could be already over, but instead of that - we've got all European newspapers reprinting those cartoons. What for? Did it help you to feel yourself more safely? Those fanatics won't fight with journalists, they'll do it with civilians, but because of some stupid newspapers' jokes. It is indeed silly to provoke a sleeping lion (or Dragon in China's case). And in some cases you are correct, the 'West' (perhaps 'Wild West') has indeed provoked when a more subtle understanding has been called for. But then again, there is provocation - and there is provocation. Hitler marching into Poland was provocation. Pol Pot's consultations with the North Vietnamese communists was provocation. The terrorist killings of innocents at Munich, 9/11, 7/7 or indeed Beslan school children was provocation. But a bad cartoon? Remember your own countrymen: Korolev, Akhmatova, Yakobovich and Nikolayev, who were all jailed for committing the serious offence of writing POETRY? Was that really provocation enough to send them all to jail without trial? Likewise is a cartoon enough provocation to kill 13 civillians sitting on a bus? |
| Serry... 05.02.2006 13:20 |
Of course, no! But if we know about their possible reaction, but still draw cartoons - it's stupid, IMHO... About USSR: there was one unwritten rule in Soviet Union in post-Stalin times: you don't have to believe in communistic idea, you don't have to follow that idea, you can disagree with it, BUT if someone asks you "Are you with us? Do you believe?" - your answer has to be: "Yes!". Nothing more. You couldn't publically disagree, but you hadn't to publically agree. Artists like Freddie could work here without any problems - no politic statements, diplomatic comments about some history facts etc. It was like a deal between people and government. Is it okay? No, but... Example: would you ever eat worms and bugs? No! But if you'd stand alone on lonely island in the middle of Pacific ocean without food? If you wanna stay alive - you'll eat bugs and worms. It doesn't mean that you must give up and wait for the death, you must try to find way to get back to home. Same here - we have to deal with immigrants, with religion feelings of muslims etc. - even if we don't like it and even if we have to limit ourselves a little. Otherwise don't let them come to your countries. Maybe you know that we have body of Lenin lying in Mausoleum on Red Square in Moscow and a lot of people and politics saying "We must bury him!". Isn't it a provocation? What is a need to bury him right now? There are still a lot of communists and old people who loves that guy and who wants him to be in the middle of Moscow. So, maybe it sounds cynical, but we have to be patient and wait. Otherwise - anything could happened. |
| The Real Wizard 05.02.2006 13:39 |
Fairy wrote: You ignore my links about Christian Church crimes...You're just a catholic who wants her point of view to be the correct one. Clearly your posts have an anti-muslim slant. Let's face it: extremists in the three main monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) all have their fair share of crimes over the past 1500 years. Don't try to make your religion out to be the innocent one. That tactic won't work on anyone who knows their history well. After all, it was your religion that wanted to kill all of the scientists in the 17th century. That's one of the biggest crimes of all: surpressing knowledge and free will. But they've always done that. In the fourth century, the Vatican wanted to silence all facets of Christianity that differed from what they wanted to be the orthodox faith. We know they supressed and destroyed scriptures of Gnostic Christians, and who knows what else is in their vaults? Every Cardinal and Pope throughout history surely knew. Ah, I could go on for hours. Christianity has its dirty history, and there are few Christians who actually know this stuff. Those who know it either aren't Christian at all, or aren't Christian anymore. But I digress. So, who's watching the Superbowl today? |
| Fairy 05.02.2006 13:45 |
Serry... wrote: Of course, no! But if we know about their possible reaction, but still draw cartoons - it's stupid, IMHO... |
| The Real Wizard 05.02.2006 13:55 |
Fairy wrote: BTW: we have immigrants of all cultures and religions. Why do only Muslims create such big problems?I can't believe you just said that... If you're truly convinced that it's only Muslims who create big problems in the western world, then you really need to brush up on your history. Besides, your criteria for perpetrators is biased only to immigrants. We have plenty of Christian people born in the US commiting religious hate crimes often enough. |
| Music Man 05.02.2006 16:32 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:I don't understand how people can consistently bring up the irrelevant past in order to condemn those who live in the present. The fact is that Christians no longer want to kill all the scientists, they no longer want to suppress unorthodox Christian religions, the Inquisition...is all dead and gone. You cannot blame modern day Christians for the actions of their ancestors.Fairy wrote: You ignore my links about Christian Church crimes...You're just a catholic who wants her point of view to be the correct one. Clearly your posts have an anti-muslim slant. Let's face it: extremists in the three main monotheistic religions (Judaism, Christianity, Islam) all have their fair share of crimes over the past 1500 years. Don't try to make your religion out to be the innocent one. That tactic won't work on anyone who knows their history well. After all, it was your religion that wanted to kill all of the scientists in the 17th century. That's one of the biggest crimes of all: surpressing knowledge and free will. But they've always done that. In the fourth century, the Vatican wanted to silence all facets of Christianity that differed from what they wanted to be the orthodox faith. We know they supressed and destroyed scriptures of Gnostic Christians, and who knows what else is in their vaults? Every Cardinal and Pope throughout history surely knew. Ah, I could go on for hours. Christianity has its dirty history, and there are few Christians who actually know this stuff. Those who know it either aren't Christian at all, or aren't Christian anymore. But I digress. So, who's watching the Superbowl today? If your father was a serial murderer, that does not mean that you should serve his life sentence. This is a simple piece of logic that is unbelievably overlooked by so many people for the purposes of propaganda in promoting their argument. I really can't tell you how often Americans are blamed as being hypocrites due to the fact that slavery once existed in the country, that the Native Americans were forced out of their homeland, etc., etc. Unless you can find a relevant, modern day example, your words are nothing more than useless. Now, onto the topic, while I agree that, yes, there are still many extremist Christians in this world, the percent that resort to such degrees of violence and hostility are rather low as compared to modern day Muslims. These are just the cold, hard facts. How many well-known, large, and active terrorist organizations are there affiliated with Catholicism? Judaism? Buddhism? Now...how many are affiliated with Islam? I rest my case. Furthermore, I completely disagree with the "profiling" of Muslims that occurs today. Even with such a relatively high percentage of terrorists being Muslim, this still gives no right to discrimination of innocent Muslims whose natural rights are just as sacred as yours and mine. Just my two cents. |
| The Real Wizard 05.02.2006 17:53 |
Music Man wrote: I don't understand how people can consistently bring up the irrelevant past in order to condemn those who live in the present. The fact is that Christians no longer want to kill all the scientists, they no longer want to suppress unorthodox Christian religions, the Inquisition...is all dead and gone. You cannot blame modern day Christians for the actions of their ancestors.Yes, I agree with what you are saying, but the only reason I went into such history is because the post was aimed at someone who seemed to be trying to make Christianity out to be an innocent religion. At that point I wasn't arguing against today's Christians. I was just refreshing her memory, or perhaps even letting her in on new facts. But I disagree on your claim that the church is no longer actively supressing unorthodox beliefs. The current pope is well-documented in saying that all deviations from the "true faith" are wrong. Also, over the past few decades, the church has openly denounced all non-biblical scriptures as being heretical and wrong, most notably the Nag Hammadi Library. Now, onto the topic, while I agree that, yes, there are still many extremist Christians in this world, the percent that resort to such degrees of violence and hostility are rather low as compared to modern day Muslims. These are just the cold, hard facts. How many well-known, large, and active terrorist organizations are there affiliated with Catholicism? Judaism? Buddhism? Now...how many are affiliated with Islam? I rest my case. Furthermore, I completely disagree with the "profiling" of Muslims that occurs today. Even with such a relatively high percentage of terrorists being Muslim, this still gives no right to discrimination of innocent Muslims whose natural rights are just as sacred as yours and mine. Just my two cents.Yeah, I agree with you on all that. |
| iron eagle 05.02.2006 19:37 |
i can vividly imagine how bashed and demonized a stateside zoner posting some of what some of you all are saying in this thread and the other would be |
| Mr.Jingles 05.02.2006 19:53 |
Personally I am fed with people labeling ALL christians as corrupt fundamentalists and manipulators of their faith in order to justify their personal beliefs as christian. Yes, I will admit that there's a lot of be said about christian institutions, christian leaders, and many people who claim to be "good christians" who are far bigger sinners than the average person. Yet, that doesn't mean that every single christian is a hypocrite ultra-conservative. There's a lot of christians who dedicate their lives helping those in need, but of course there always going to be certain atheists willing to ignore the good will and work of this people and focus only on people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson. |
| Saint Jiub 05.02.2006 20:21 |
Don't forget the bosses of the Catholic Church and their misdeeds ... though at least they no longer murder in the name of God ... Telling Africans that they will go to hell if they use a condom. ... and of course the cover-up for pedo priests Bishop Imish of Joliet IL claiming he had no obligation to go to police after a priest confessed to him. Instead he he let him continue working with children. The Rockford diociese refusing public access to records concerning a convicted pedo priest in Geneva IL. Of course Cardinal George of Chicago also has his hands full with increasing pedo priest allegations the last week or so. The pedo priest coverup goes all the way to the pope. Disgraced cardinal Bernard Law of Boston, after resigning his post due to his coverup of pedo priests, was personally given a cushy job in Rome by pope John Paul as head of a bascilica. Sainthood for jonny paul ... nah Of course Jingles will not believe any of this. He thinks victims of child sex abuse should be in jail for making these accusations years after the incidents. |
| Music Man 05.02.2006 20:26 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: But I disagree on your claim that the church is no longer actively supressing unorthodox beliefs. The current pope is well-documented in saying that all deviations from the "true faith" are wrong. Also, over the past few decades, the church has openly denounced all non-biblical scriptures as being heretical and wrong, most notably the Nag Hammadi Library.In reality, the influence of the Church is, well, weak (especially in the States). In fact, most of the "Ultra-Conservative, Right-Wing Fanatics" that are pointed out are Protestant. Most Americans who do abide by the Roman Catholic faith, however, generally practice what is known as "Cafeteria Catholicism." They pick and choose whatever beliefs are appropriate for them. Therefore, when I spoke of "Christians," I was not referring solely to the Roman Catholic religion. Even the Roman Catholic faith, however, is becoming more and more tolerant and accepting of other religions, just as their followers are becoming so. But for the most part, I completely understand your post and explanations. |
| Mr.Jingles 05.02.2006 20:34 |
Rip Van Winkle wrote: Don't forget the bosses of the Catholic Church and their misdeeds ... though at least they no longer murder in the name of God ... Telling Africans that they will go to hell if they use a condom.Gotta love TRUTHINESS As far as I'm concerned the Catholic church is against the use of contraceptives, but has never actually made a statement saying that those who use them will go to HELL. I am by no means taking the side of the Catholic Church, as I do not share the same beliefs with them. The good thing is that we no longer live in the times of the Inquisition where the Catholic Church had the power to enforce their beliefs. Seems like someone is following Caspar's steps of making statements based on facts they can not back or proove. |
| Saint Jiub 05.02.2006 22:25 |
link link link |
| Mr.Jingles 05.02.2006 22:48 |
Nope, still no one had mentioned anything about condom users going to HELL. Nice try though. |
| Saint Jiub 06.02.2006 00:39 |
I could not find the quote. I remembered a quote from someone else that I unfortunately believed. I wonder if John Paul may have been paraphrased from his book "Memory and Identity" about his theories about "ideology of evil" (condoms, abortion, homosexuality and gay marriage). But still, I leave you more links concerning the reign of John Paul ... link |
| YourValentine 06.02.2006 03:52 |
Somewhere I missed the connection between the pope forbidding condoms in Africa and the Muhammad cartoons:) To be serious - there is no "good" or "bad" religions, there are only people who use religion and there are people who are manipulated under the pretense of religion. The overwhelming majority of people on this planet never fight other people for religious reasons - luckily. It's true that the Christian churches do have a history of oppression up to this very day. But in most of the European countries we overcame this oppression. Only 60 years ago unmarried women who became pregnant killed themselves because they faced a life in shame and social isolation. Only 30 years ago it was not possible to have a legal abortion because of the influence of the church. Only 5 years ago a gay couple could not have a legal relationship in this country. But our society progressed and people are free from such limitations today. Some people think that this freedom "goes too far" and that our ethics are disappearing along with the relgious restrictions. But one thing is sure: we do not want another religion to take over and limit our freedom. Everybody can live their religion in freedom but nobody can tell us what we can do and what we cannot do in the name of any religion. |
| Teo_torriate04 06.02.2006 05:19 |
Mr.Jingles wrote: Nope, still no one had mentioned anything about condom users going to HELL. Nice try though.But surely, if the heads of the religious order to which you hang your faith tell you something is wrong and against your gods' teachings, then the tacit implication of that is that you are damned if you ignore them. Thats as good as telling them they're going to Hell in my book. |
| Fenderek 06.02.2006 06:09 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:I'd love to add something, but... everything was perfectly said above. What a great post!Dudley-Fufkin wrote: Has anyone seen the news today? Hundreds of muslims protesting because of some cartoons in the paper. Well if you dont like them and cant take a joke, fuck off to a muslim country to live, I hate all this crap, muslims going on and on about british people, they need to accept our ways and live like british people if they want to live here. I'm fine with that, but when they go on and on about death to the west and all that, thats where I get a problem. i wouldnt go over to muslimland and say "death to the east" I'd be shot.Actually, I fully agree. Does that make me intolerant too? I am by no means a conservative person, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Immigrants are coming to first world countries, complaining about the way things are done. We are the ones who choose to accomodate them. They aren't the ones accomodating us. If immigrants don't like it, then they can go back to their third world country where things were assumingly better, yes? We all know that Iran, Iraq, and Jordan have equal rights, freedom of speech, education for all, clean water, and a 90% employment rate. I digress. In my city, there is a huge light display every December saying: "Hamilton wishes you a Merry Christmas". The muslims and various other minorities pleaded for it to be changed to "happy holidays". One year they succeeded. I can't believe my city gave in once, but they have since changed it back, thank goodness. My country was founded on two principles: the French revolution, and Christianity. I am all for questioning tradition when the time is right, but when the majority agree with the tradition, a minority has no right to change the tradition for religious reasons. But before someone interprets me as being ignorant for seeming to say that minorities shouldn't have a voice, I'll give a different example: Gay people are a minority, but for humane reasons, we are choosing to begin accepting them as equals, even though the majority has yet to agree. But in due time they will. Any time throughout history when a prejudice was questioned, it eventually died. Women and blacks are now equal in most of the west (some parts of the USA still have some way to go with the latter). The same will happen for gay people. And so, when the majority of people think Christmas shouldn't exist anymore, then we will change that too. But it hasn't happened yet, so a minority group has no right to come here and denounce the set ways of the country who chose to accomdate them during their time of need. If they don't like it, then they can go back home.Its about time we shot muslims on the spot when they preach about "death to the west".But no, I wouldn't go that far... Otherwise, I fully agree with the topic starter's comments.Bryans Permed Pants wrote: I think Islam needs to be modernised as it's ideas do not relate to the 21st century.As opposed to Christianity? With the exception of the United Church, since when have they been with the times? There are still Christians who make statements about their beliefs that ancient alchemists would find embarassing. |
| John S Stuart 06.02.2006 07:45 |
YourValentine wrote: Somewhere I missed the connection between the pope forbidding condoms in Africa and the Muhammad cartoons:) To be serious - there is no "good" or "bad" religions, there are only people who use religion and there are people who are manipulated under the pretense of religion. The overwhelming majority of people on this planet never fight other people for religious reasons - luckily. It's true that the Christian churches do have a history of oppression up to this very day. But in most of the European countries we overcame this oppression. Only 60 years ago unmarried women who became pregnant killed themselves because they faced a life in shame and social isolation. Only 30 years ago it was not possible to have a legal abortion because of the influence of the church. Only 5 years ago a gay couple could not have a legal relationship in this country. But our society progressed and people are free from such limitations today. Some people think that this freedom "goes too far" and that our ethics are disappearing along with the relgious restrictions. But one thing is sure: we do not want another religion to take over and limit our freedom. Everybody can live their religion in freedom but nobody can tell us what we can do and what we cannot do in the name of any religion.Good post. I too fail to see the connection between the likes of the Jehovah Witnesses and the Mormons who trek around my door trying to bring my soul to Jesus - and delberately inflamatory posters who intend to at least intimidate - if not literally rob me of my life. At least with the former I still have the freedom to say 'No Thank-you'. ThomasQuinn wrote: I find the amount of racism on this forum simply repulsive. You people (you know who I mean) don't deserve the blood that runs in your veins.I had previously written Thomas: John S Stuart wrote: Serry: Although this thread is about Muslims - and can be viewed as anti-Muslim - I do NOT see it that way per say. What I see are a group of fanatics who are willing to detroy the rest of the world to promote their own interests. To me it is not important whether they are Muslim, Nazi, Bolshevik or Nationalists, but I can not allow myself to live in the fear of the bigoted intolerance of my freedom.Hopefully, you do not see this a bigotry, or racism, and the vibes that I get from this board is that people are genuinely scared that this problem can esculate on both sides. My own take on it is, that in the fictional 'Star Trek' universe, I guess Janeway can reason her way out of any situation, using diplomacy on all alien life-forms. But in real life, you can NOT reason with Piranha fish, or an army of red ants. |
| Fenderek 06.02.2006 07:54 |
<b><font color = "crimson">ThomasQuinn wrote: I find the amount of racism on this forum simply repulsive. You people (you know who I mean) don't deserve the blood that runs in your veins.It's a two way street... Why can't I call a black guy "a cunt" without being accused of being racist? I'm just calling him cunt the same way I'd calll a white... Yet because I'm white and he's black- what- race crime? In fact- if he's accusing me of racism- he's the one who seperate two races, he's the one who divide people to "us" and "them". If the West is supposed to tolerate other cultures (and it SHOULD)- the other cultures should tolerate West. If I was going to live in Saudi Arabia- I'd have to accept the rules there. It works the other way. It fucking can't be any other way!!! I do believe all the people are equal- but it INCLUDES ME! And hell- I'm going to defend my own right to celebrate my taditions and my freedom the way I WANT. Of course anyone who calims only Muslims are bad and everybody else (us) is pretty- well- is a moron, no doubt about that... |
| Togg 06.02.2006 07:58 |
This is total BS, they are being stired up by a small group of people that want to test the west and provoke a fight no matter what the cost. Most of them haven't even seen the cartoons! They are mindless prats the lot of them, no matter what side they are on, if they think that destorying buildings and fighting is justified, they need locking up. |
| Fenderek 06.02.2006 08:37 |
<b><font color = "crimson">ThomasQuinn wrote: My point is that people have developed a 'natural' tendency to hate muslims. "If it's muslim, it's probably terrorist" seems to be the general concensus. And you don't blame all Christians for the religious fanatics such as the KKK, do you? We do, however, blame all muslims for Al Qaeda and the few terrorists there are.Not WE- some people do. Those with no brains... I have Muslim friends- wanderful people actually... |
| Mr.Jingles 06.02.2006 10:43 |
Rip Van Winkle wrote: I could not find the quote. I remembered a quote from someone else that I unfortunately believed. I wonder if John Paul may have been paraphrased from his book "Memory and Identity" about his theories about "ideology of evil" (condoms, abortion, homosexuality and gay marriage). But still, I leave you more links concerning the reign of John Paul ... linkYou're hilarious you know. You're making a fuss over the Pope and The Catholic Church being against condom use like if they owned every single condom factory on earth. As far as I'm concerned people don't particularly go to their local churches asking for condoms. The great majority of christians (or at least people who were raised christian) don't follow literally what the Catholic Church tells them to do. I went to a Catholic School and just about every single kid in my class listened to heavy metal, regardless of how many times they were told that they shouldn't listen to EVIL MUSIC. So are you going to whine now because Pope John Paul II didn't like Ozzy Osbourne? |
| John S Stuart 06.02.2006 11:02 |
Just a quick thought after reading back Mr. Jingles mail above: Now that we are living in the 21st Century, with the Spanish Inquisition a far distant memory, Christian (or Catholic) religions are no longer 'physically' enforceable. Sure the Pope can preach out against abortion or condoms, but how many millions of Catholics ignore that advice, and carry-on regardless? I mean it's not as if the Catholic police will come a-knocking! Likewise, many Muslims believe that life is sacred, so tarring them with the same brush as extremists is also unfair. However, that does not negate the fact, that in my country, preachers of hate are free to broadcast their anti-western-diatribe, without consequence, and that their 'beliefs' allow the wholesale carnage of innocent victims. Surely, this is not acceptable, and it is neither racist nor bigoted of me to stand against this sort of extremism. |
| Fenderek 06.02.2006 11:06 |
Mr.Jingles wrote: You're hilarious you know. You're making a fuss over the Pope and The Catholic Church being against condom use like if they owned every single condom factory on earth. As far as I'm concerned people don't particularly go to their local churches asking for condoms. The great majority of christians (or at least people who were raised christian) don't follow literally what the Catholic Church tells them to do. I went to a Catholic School and just about every single kid in my class listened to heavy metal, regardless of how many times they were told that they shouldn't listen to EVIL MUSIC. So are you going to whine now because Pope John Paul II didn't like Ozzy Osbourne?Well- most people don't follow literally what vatican says... But less educated people are more likely to... And I guess the condoms / AIDS issue- well, that's the poor and uneducated... Those, who are more likely to listen to what Vatican tells them literally... I do actually see it also as very, VERY irresponsible. You give a catholic School example- but WHERE? America? Colombia? Poland? Try zambia, South Africa, Zimbabwe or countries like that... Kind of different perspective, don't you think? Most of those people this problem is affecting don't go to Catholic Schools... They're lucky if they go to any school... |
| Mr.Jingles 06.02.2006 13:23 |
Trust me, I come from a country where the great majority is Catholic, but the far majority don't follow the rules dictated by the Catholic church. To give another example I'm living in a country where 30% - 40% of the population was raised Catholic, and still the majority of them don't take literally everything said by the Catholic Church. Rarely something is said and actually listened to. If this is not enough, I now plenty of christians from other countries, and the majority of them (Catholic or not) don't follow what When it comes to literally following religion, the issue has nothing to be with social class. Do you think poor people pop-out babies every now and then because the church says they shouldn't? Do you think teenage girls from low classes get pregnant because they're more religious? It's all a matter of education. If people are not told that condoms (or any other contraceptives) prevent unwanted pregnancies, then chances are that they will have sex for pure ignorance. Religion is out of the question here. The Catholic Church has very little influence on what goes on in Africa right now. The problem as you mentioned is education, not religion. If any christian institution wants to give their point of view on why abstinence is the only way to prevent AIDS, that won't change anything. |
| Sonia Doris 06.02.2006 13:35 |
Kinda the same goes on with Orthodox countries. Although here at least is not such a big campaign against Muslims, I guess here... We just fought the Turks way back, and kicked their arses several times, as they kicked ours other times... And now they invade us with chewing gum xD, not with armies. The thing is it hasn't been a problem before. Now a big paper wants to publish the notorious cartoons, so problems will probably start now... |
| Music Man 06.02.2006 16:17 |
<font color=blk>Sasha<font color=red>38 wrote: 100 What can I say.I don't get it. |
| Freya is quietly judging you. 06.02.2006 16:19 |
Music Man wrote:I do.<font color=blk>Sasha<font color=red>38 wrote: 100 What can I say.I don't get it. |
| Music Man 06.02.2006 16:52 |
<font color=violet>Poppy wrote:I think I do now.Music Man wrote:I do.<font color=blk>Sasha<font color=red>38 wrote: 100 What can I say.I don't get it. |
| deleted user 06.02.2006 17:27 |
<b><font color = "crimson">ThomasQuinn wrote: My point is that people have developed a 'natural' tendency to hate muslims. "If it's muslim, it's probably terrorist" seems to be the general concensus. And you don't blame all Christians for the religious fanatics such as the KKK, do you? We do, however, blame all muslims for Al Qaeda and the few terrorists there are.Good point! very true. |
| That guy who digs energy domes 06.02.2006 21:37 |
One man's terrorist is another's martyr. |
| Music Man 06.02.2006 21:48 |
Queen Of Wrestling<h6>Jamie's Slave</h6> wrote: One man's terrorist is another's martyr.No shit. Go back in your corner. |
| Saint Jiub 06.02.2006 23:11 |
YourValentine wrote: Somewhere I missed the connection between the pope forbidding condoms in Africa and the Muhammad cartoons:)I took Jingles bait when he railed about "certain atheists" leveling "unfair" accusations at Christianity. |
| Saint Jiub 06.02.2006 23:28 |
Fenderek wrote:The pope has great sway in many countries of Central America and sub-saharan Africa. Uganda has done better at combating HIV than many African countries because it ignored the pope and had greater use of condoms. Also, how can one defend a religion that deliberately lies by proclaiming that condoms are ineffective against HIV because the virus eaily slips through "pores" of the condom???Mr.Jingles wrote: You're hilarious you know. You're making a fuss over the Pope and The Catholic Church being against condom use like if they owned every single condom factory on earth. As far as I'm concerned people don't particularly go to their local churches asking for condoms. The great majority of christians (or at least people who were raised christian) don't follow literally what the Catholic Church tells them to do. I went to a Catholic School and just about every single kid in my class listened to heavy metal, regardless of how many times they were told that they shouldn't listen to EVIL MUSIC. So are you going to whine now because Pope John Paul II didn't like Ozzy Osbourne?Well- most people don't follow literally what vatican says... But less educated people are more likely to... And I guess the condoms / AIDS issue- well, that's the poor and uneducated... Those, who are more likely to listen to what Vatican tells them literally... I do actually see it also as very, VERY irresponsible. You give a catholic School example- but WHERE? America? Colombia? Poland? Try zambia, South Africa, Zimbabwe or countries like that... Kind of different perspective, don't you think? Most of those people this problem is affecting don't go to Catholic Schools... They're lucky if they go to any school... |
| Saint Jiub 06.02.2006 23:58 |
Rip Van Winkle wrote: The cover-up for pedo priests ... Bishop Imish of Joliet IL claiming he had no obligation to go to police after a priest confessed to him. Instead he he let him continue working with children. The Rockford diociese refusing public access to records concerning a convicted pedo priest in Geneva IL. Of course Cardinal George of Chicago also has his hands full with increasing pedo priest allegations the last week or so. The pedo priest coverup goes all the way to the pope. Disgraced cardinal Bernard Law of Boston, after resigning his post due to his coverup of pedo priests, was personally given a cushy job in Rome by pope John Paul as head of a bascilica. Sainthood for jonny paul ... nah Of course Jingles will not believe any of this. He thinks victims of child sex abuse should be in jail for making these accusations years after the incidents.I am surprised that no one commented on the above. It really is a problem in the USA. By me, all 3 Chicago area dioseces have problems and each dioesces is involved in a cover up. Heck, my wife and I were married by a pedo priest before the news leaked out. I recognize that well over 95 % of priests are not pedophiles. But the church heirarchy (bishop and above) generally just does not have a clue. It is bad enough that victims and families must suffer ordeals inflicted by pedo priests. But to cover up the priest's misdeeds and tranfer him to another parish just to save the Catholic Church's reputation and finances is unbelievable. ... and to top it off, Pope John Paul awarded former Cardinal Bernard Law (the orchestrator of the Boston pedo priest cover up) a cushy job as head of a Rome bascilica (complete with luxurious housing and lofty salary) But at least the catholic church is not in the business of ruling terrorist countries or leveling skyscrapers or burning down foreign embassies. |
| Saint Jiub 07.02.2006 00:02 |
Mr.Jingles wrote:So are you going to whine now because Pope John Paul II didn't like Ozzy Osbourne?Nope ... I can't stand Ozzy's voice. |
| The Mir@cle 07.02.2006 02:26 |
<font color=#CC0066>Sonia Doris</font> wrote: Kinda the same goes on with Orthodox countries. Although here at least is not such a big campaign against Muslims, I guess here... We just fought the Turks way back, and kicked their arses several times, as they kicked ours other times... And now they invade us with chewing gum xD, not with armies. The thing is it hasn't been a problem before. Now a big paper wants to publish the notorious cartoons, so problems will probably start now...That's why I was surprised that people were also burning Romanian flags there :S They just hate everyone in Europe right now, even if there's no reason to hate them. That's generalising too! But still, we kinda created this problem by ourselves. Although I think their reaction is a bit out of proportions. |
| The Mir@cle 07.02.2006 03:18 |
I know, I may not copy this but our Brian is so right! This comes from his soabbox:
from link I'm not really a political animal .... perhaps because I'm so deeply suspicious of the motives of politicians .... But the other great furore going on is of course the question of these insulting cartoons, and whether they should have been published. No-one can condone the appalingly violent response which we have seen to the cartoons - that to me is a different matter - concerning the behaviour of people whom Westerners understand all too little - and not something which I wish to comment on at this point ... But I can comment on our own behaviour. It amazes me that there are attempts to justify the publication of these obviously insulting bits of tat by talking about Free Speech. Anyone who aligns themselves with our government's policies, is on insupportably shaky ground if they support the right of the Danish press to publish such material. Again, nobody seems to have noticed this, but this government has clearly established the fact that it tolerates some forms of free speech and not others. Remember ? They recently passed a Bill that enables them to put in prison anyone who, in their 'free speech", incites racial hatred or violence. Are you telling me that these particular Danes looked at these cartoons, and did not realise that they have the potential to cause racial and inter-religious hatred, and the threat of violence? Do we WANT to support the right of everyone to go around insulting a religious or racial group ? To me, it's a bit like freedom of action. We all like to be free to walk around and punch the air, and feel our power, but if one of those punches lands in someone's face, haven't we abused our freedom ? A large helping of common sense is lacking here. Let's hear it for consideration, moderation and keeping a true sense of humour - which means being able to laugh at ourselves, not laugh at other people's expense. Remember when you were at school .... being laughed at was at least as hurtful as being punched ? And made us just as angry ? And please ... calls for violence never solved anything. That's the lesson our own leaders learned in Afghanistan and Iraq. Oh, sorry; I forgot - they DIDN'T learn it . My God, they still can't see it. Peace bri |
| great king rat 1138 07.02.2006 05:37 |
Bryans Permed Pants wrote: I think Islam needs to be modernised as it's ideas do not relate to the 21st century.And catholicism (for example) does? Very few of the world's main religions have any sort of relation to the 21st century, with the possible exception of Hinduism. Quite Ironic seeing as that's the oldest of the lot! |
| john bodega 07.02.2006 08:49 |
Dudley Fufkin belongs in a barrel in the middle of the Pacific Ocean. I wouldn't wish death on anyone, but I can't help but laugh at the idea of this troglodyte floating around in the sea going 'lemme out. please'. As for this Muslim Rioting... GET A SENSE OF HUMOUR. IT WAS JUST A CARTOON. Makes *me* want to draw some cartoons of Mohammed just to show them that *no God* is worth rioting over, and it's absolutely not worth getting shot dead while rioting over. These people (the rioters, not the whole population of course) need to get a frickin' grip. This shit is just not worth it. The cartoonist been lynched yet? |
| Mr.Jingles 07.02.2006 10:40 |
Rip Van Winkle wrote:I would like to see how you come up with an opossite view to that.YourValentine wrote: Somewhere I missed the connection between the pope forbidding condoms in Africa and the Muhammad cartoons:)I took Jingles bait when he railed about "certain atheists" leveling "unfair" accusations at Christianity. It's all a matter of generalizations. Personally I don't particularly rely on the views of any christian organization. However, I do appreciate those individuals who make a difference by acting more and speaking less. |
| Mr.Jingles 07.02.2006 10:42 |
Rip Van Winkle wrote:...or bombing and invading countries based on false accusations.Rip Van Winkle wrote: The cover-up for pedo priests ... Bishop Imish of Joliet IL claiming he had no obligation to go to police after a priest confessed to him. Instead he he let him continue working with children. The Rockford diociese refusing public access to records concerning a convicted pedo priest in Geneva IL. Of course Cardinal George of Chicago also has his hands full with increasing pedo priest allegations the last week or so. The pedo priest coverup goes all the way to the pope. Disgraced cardinal Bernard Law of Boston, after resigning his post due to his coverup of pedo priests, was personally given a cushy job in Rome by pope John Paul as head of a bascilica. Sainthood for jonny paul ... nah Of course Jingles will not believe any of this. He thinks victims of child sex abuse should be in jail for making these accusations years after the incidents.But at least the catholic church is not in the business of ruling terrorist countries or leveling skyscrapers or burning down foreign embassies. Btw, I don't know if you're getting the message, but I have never made a statement defending the Catholic Church or any religious organization for that matter. I'm only defending individual christians who don't go around spreading hatred, and who spend more time helping those in need. Should I bring Barney the Dinosaur again to explain it to you? P.S. How much time did you spend yesterday finding sites linking accusations of "condom users are going to hell"? That must have been a whole lotta googling. |
| Serry... 07.02.2006 11:36 |
So Brian just used my words about "free of speech", but in perfect English only... Hehe... And his "**Sun 05 Feb 06** HOW DARE WE?" are again my words about "balance"... Brian and me are dangerous persons perhaps, as it was stated before by Fairy... |
| Micrówave 07.02.2006 12:31 |
How come whenever we do something wrong with "our privates", we always blame society? The Pope George Bush Paul Rodgers blah blah blah blah blah!!! I'm sure someone told these Africans that people are dying and why. You can't stop the force of the privates!!! Hell, we'd still have Queen!!! |
| The Real Wizard 07.02.2006 23:08 |
Music Man wrote: In reality, the influence of the Church is, well, weak (especially in the States). In fact, most of the "Ultra-Conservative, Right-Wing Fanatics" that are pointed out are Protestant. Most Americans who do abide by the Roman Catholic faith, however, generally practice what is known as "Cafeteria Catholicism." They pick and choose whatever beliefs are appropriate for them.Yeah, I know... but there are still a lot of hard-liners out there who believe it all. I know a few people who lead campagins against homosexuality, birth control, and abortion. Even the Roman Catholic faith, however, is becoming more and more tolerant and accepting of other religions, just as their followers are becoming so.While people may be becoming more accepting, the institution certainly is not. As I said, recall Benedict claiming that "all devations from the traditional Catholic faith are wrong." That hardly sounds accepting to me. Rip Van Winkle wrote: The pedo priest coverup goes all the way to the pope. Disgraced cardinal Bernard Law of Boston, after resigning his post due to his coverup of pedo priests, was personally given a cushy job in Rome by pope John Paul as head of a bascilica. Sainthood for jonny paul ... nahInteresting... I never heard that one. Thanks for the links you posted. I almost wish I never read them. JP II was a great man in some ways, but a sick man in many others. Fantastic post by Brian May, btw! He understands the situation perfectly. Some people think that the muslims are out of hand, but the reality is, they and their beliefs aren't going anywhere, so it absolutely is not our right to exercise our freedom of speech at their expense. |
| Saint Jiub 07.02.2006 23:57 |
Mr.Jingles wrote: but of course there always going to be certain atheists willing to ignore the good will and work of this people and focus only on people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.I am tired of Jingles branding any atheist as a hatemonger whenever some form of christianity is criticized. Any opinions offered are ignored and ridiculed because the writer is somehow unworthy. In my mind, the Pope is not a great man because he carries too much baggage (which most people somehow ignore) Here is my completely 121% unbiased scorecard: Saved many Jews in Poland.....A+ Earned millions of frequent flyer miles ..... B- Asked forgiveness for Church sins committed before he was born ....... C+ Labeled homosexuality as an ideology of evil ... F Policy against using condoms for preventing HIV transmission ... F The pedo priest cover up and making disgraced Cardinal Law head of a bascilica in Rome ... F Total Average .... C Oh well, this topic tangent has been a waste of time. Maybe, I will find the strength to resume not replying Jingles posts. |
| Music Man 08.02.2006 03:45 |
Rip Van Winkle wrote:Hey, do you think he got into the University of Heaven with that 2.0? I think he was riding on legacies...what were his SATs like?Mr.Jingles wrote: but of course there always going to be certain atheists willing to ignore the good will and work of this people and focus only on people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.I am tired of Jingles branding any atheist as a hatemonger whenever some form of christianity is criticized. Any opinions offered are ignored and ridiculed because the writer is somehow unworthy. In my mind, the Pope is not a great man because he carries too much baggage (which most people somehow ignore) Here is my completely 121% unbiased scorecard: Saved many Jews in Poland.....A+ Earned millions of frequent flyer miles ..... B- Asked forgiveness for Church sins committed before he was born ....... C+ Labeled homosexuality as an ideology of evil ... F Policy against using condoms for preventing HIV transmission ... F The pedo priest cover up and making disgraced Cardinal Law head of a bascilica in Rome ... F Total Average .... C Oh well, this topic tangent has been a waste of time. Maybe, I will find the strength to resume not replying Jingles posts. |
| Mr.Jingles 08.02.2006 07:57 |
Rip Van Winkle wrote:Read again... When I said CERTAIN atheists, I'm NOT refering to ALL of them. I happen to have atheist friends who respect me for what I believe in, and I respect for their beliefs as well. Despite the difference in faith, there's a lot more common that we have. We appreciate those who actually put their money where their mouth is, and make an effort to help people in need (which I believe is something that a true christian would do). We are also fed up with people using any sort of religion as a way to manipulate their beliefs and push their own agenda of what they consider morally correct or wrong. Personally I happen to criticize the great majority of christian institutions (including the Catholic Church... I don't even consider myself Catholic anyways). However, as an example I have to tell you that my grandmother is Catholic, and while she also critcizes the Catholic for the cover-ups of the child molestations cases, and all the endless criticism of homosexuality, she still wishes to remain a faithful Catholic. She works for a charity organization helping kids living under extreme conditions of poverty, and not only by organizing fund raisers but by actually going to where these people live and spending their time helping the poor She says that there's a lot more to worry about than just telling people how to live their lives. I do admire and respect people like my grandmother because they happen to understand that the basic meaning of christianity is helping and caring for those in need. Now I'm not saying that only christians help with charity work. Of course there's a lot more people from different religious faiths (and atheists as well) who are involved in organizations providing relief for people suffering from poverty, hunger, and illness. I guess it might be the only thing that without a doubt unites those who don't follow the same religion. Hopefully more people will be able to break the religion barriers, and stop some much bias against each other.Mr.Jingles wrote: but of course there always going to be certain atheists willing to ignore the good will and work of this people and focus only on people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.I am tired of Jingles branding any atheist as a hatemonger whenever some form of christianity is criticized. Any opinions offered are ignored and ridiculed because the writer is somehow unworthy. Rip Van Winkle wrote: Oh well, this topic tangent has been a waste of time. Maybe, I will find the strength to resume not replying Jingles posts.Seems like you're tossing the towel here, don't you? Such a pity. |
| Mr.Jingles 08.02.2006 08:01 |
_ double post _ |
| bleeding heart show 08.02.2006 12:38 |
Rip Van Winkle wrote:So if jews never existed that guy would have failed your assessment!Mr.Jingles wrote: but of course there always going to be certain atheists willing to ignore the good will and work of this people and focus only on people like Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson.I am tired of Jingles branding any atheist as a hatemonger whenever some form of christianity is criticized. Any opinions offered are ignored and ridiculed because the writer is somehow unworthy. In my mind, the Pope is not a great man because he carries too much baggage (which most people somehow ignore) Here is my completely 121% unbiased scorecard: Saved many Jews in Poland.....A+ Earned millions of frequent flyer miles ..... B- Asked forgiveness for Church sins committed before he was born ....... C+ Labeled homosexuality as an ideology of evil ... F Policy against using condoms for preventing HIV transmission ... F The pedo priest cover up and making disgraced Cardinal Law head of a bascilica in Rome ... F Total Average .... C Oh well, this topic tangent has been a waste of time. Maybe, I will find the strength to resume not replying Jingles posts. well then i guess it's them who saved his skin not him. C- for the jews. |
| Sonia Doris 08.02.2006 14:09 |
I have a theory: all religions that appeared the last 2000 years tend to go to fanatism. Dunno why, but it's a statistical conclusion I've reached a while back. Of course here I include: Christianism, Judaism, Islamism, Budhism, Atheism, etc., in their classic and cathegorized forms. If I were to pick a religion, I'd chose Shaman stuff, or Ancient Egypt. They all come from there anyway, so it's better to check the source than the exit point xD. |
| Fairy 08.02.2006 15:39 |
Togg wrote: This is total BS, they are being stired up by a small group of people that want to test the west and provoke a fight no matter what the cost. Most of them haven't even seen the cartoons! They are mindless prats the lot of them, no matter what side they are on, if they think that destorying buildings and fighting is justified, they need locking up.Couldn't agree more. I know it's not funny but when I turn on the news and see all those people rioting about such nonsense makes me laugh out loud. I know I shouldn't, but I can't help it. It's like little children....They are really mindless.... But this is the scary part. When people don't use their judgment it's so easy to make them do what you want. When you're raised in hatred and are taught how to use a rifle in primary school, you can't really be expected to behave differently. |
| Music Man 08.02.2006 15:42 |
<b><font color = "crimson">ThomasQuinn wrote:Well, consider the bombardment of Buddha statues everywhere.<font color=#CC0066>Sonia Doris</font> wrote: I have a theory: all religions that appeared the last 2000 years tend to go to fanatism. Dunno why, but it's a statistical conclusion I've reached a while back. Of course here I include: Christianism, Judaism, Islamism, Budhism, Atheism, etc., in their classic and cathegorized forms. If I were to pick a religion, I'd chose Shaman stuff, or Ancient Egypt. They all come from there anyway, so it's better to check the source than the exit point xD.Where did BudDhism become fanatic? |
| Maz 08.02.2006 15:57 |
<b><font color = "crimson">ThomasQuinn wrote: Where did BudDhism become fanatic?link link One could make a case for either of those periods, for starters. |
| spymyshadow 09.02.2006 07:35 |
Fairy wrote:What it seemes to be the main reason of muslims being hurt is our (western) supposed making fun of Allah. But the real meaning of those pictures for me is not ridiculing a god but the use some people make of god. Muslims, or more simply some of them, expect to justify their wars against the west claiming this is Allah's will. That's why Allah or Mahomet are shown with a bomb in theplace of their traditional hat. This is the image of god muslims convey to western people, so men and not gods are the subject of fun.Togg wrote: This is total BS, they are being stired up by a small group of people that want to test the west and provoke a fight no matter what the cost. Most of them haven't even seen the cartoons! They are mindless prats the lot of them, no matter what side they are on, if they think that destorying buildings and fighting is justified, they need locking up.Couldn't agree more. I know it's not funny but when I turn on the news and see all those people rioting about such nonsense makes me laugh out loud. I know I shouldn't, but I can't help it. It's like little children....They are really mindless.... But this is the scary part. When people don't use their judgment it's so easy to make them do what you want. When you're raised in hatred and are taught how to use a rifle in primary school, you can't really be expected to behave differently. The islamic authorities realized the actual meaning and resented that to death, but to turn people into rioting would be easier by saying that allah is offended. Those images were simply an excuse to cause trouble over and over again, since the attention over the jihaad lately seemed to decrease. The hamas party elected, the iranian president saying provoking things and plannig to turn his country in an atomic superpower and now the pictures, all these things are to me part of a same plan which is making war once for all, and letting western country make the first move. To be short, I am afraid of what can happen if the things keep going on like that. In Italy, there is even some imam, as I heard, that wants to turn my country into an islamic nation,and that means to force us to become muslims. Well is only one person to say that , but since muslims are easy to be convinced and act together, really I don't know what Italy will look like in ten years or so. |
| john bodega 09.02.2006 07:57 |
These *lunatics* of all religions have forgotten the 11th commandment! KEEP THY RELIGION TO THYSELF. |
| @ndy38 09.02.2006 08:06 |
All religous fanatics go against what their religion stands for, so don't blame religion, blame the human race! |
| Fairy 09.02.2006 09:42 |
spymyshadow, I think your analysis is perfect. That's what I was trying to say too. Most people who went to riot and even got hurt or killed were manipulated. And I agree: I've seen the cartoons and there's nothing making fun of God really...you're right, they just mock the way extremists seem to conceive their religion. Gosh I've not heard of that Imam who said Italy should become a Muslim country!! Well, I doubt this could ever happen, since we Italians aren't even too much influenced by the Catholic Church though we have the Pope within our borders...But it's this constant intrusions that frightens me. Today it's about not publishing cartoons. Tomorrow we'll take the crosses off our schools' walls. Then what? I saw a documentary on Italian TV where a Muslim threatened us, without any fear. He just said something like: "We're almost ready. If you're good to us, we'll go and say thank you. If you're mean to us, it will turn against you. So be careful". Then they interviewed the Italian wife of a Muslim who had converted to Islam. She said something like: "In ten years we'll outgrow you. You have 1 child per family in average. We have many more.". And she was giggling as she said that. By this I don't mean to generalize. I just mean to say Italy is such a democratic country that you can even go on national TV and threaten an entire nation, and nothing will happen to you. If they can do that, can we at least publish some silly cartoons please?????? |
| Maz 09.02.2006 11:29 |
You assume that every Buddhist recognized they were being used for political purposes. Also, that does not explain why later Japanese daimyo feared armed Buddhist monks. |
| Sonia Doris 09.02.2006 13:36 |
<b><font color = "crimson">ThomasQuinn wrote:Caspie: the same thing happens to CHristianity, Islamism, Judaism, etc.Zeni wrote:In both cases that concerns political USEAGE of Buddhism, not Buddhism itself.<b><font color = "crimson">ThomasQuinn wrote: Where did BudDhism become fanatic?link link One could make a case for either of those periods, for starters. Those damn crusades and jihads who are more political, but use religion as a justifications. |
| Maz 09.02.2006 15:33 |
<b><font color = "crimson">ThomasQuinn wrote: Armed Buddhist monks were about as abundant as pacifist Republicans: exceptions.Can't fanaticism be labeled an "exception"? Or are all Muslims, Christians, non-Buddhists, etc fanatics? Oh, and armed Buddhist monks were not as rare as you believe: link A whole scholarly panel devoted to the subject. And more evidence: Oda Nobunaga and the Warrior-Monks at Mt. Hiei link link Finally, you never answered my first point. You assume that every Buddhist recognized they were being used for political purposes. <font color=#CC0066>Sonia Doris</font> wrote: Caspie: the same thing happens to CHristianity, Islamism, Judaism, etc. Those damn crusades and jihads who are more political, but use religion as a justifications.Yep, I agree with Sonia. |
| The Real Wizard 10.02.2006 04:55 |
spymyshadow wrote: What it seemes to be the main reason of muslims being hurt is our (western) supposed making fun of Allah. But the real meaning of those pictures for me is not ridiculing a god but the use some people make of god. Muslims, or more simply some of them, expect to justify their wars against the west claiming this is Allah's will.Right, that is looking at it from OUR point of view. That is the mistake we in the west make. We use our western ways of thinking to speak for others who do not see the world as we do. But this isn't completely an east-west thing. Many muslims in the west are equally upset about this. Just because they aren't the ones burning down Danish embassies doesn't mean they're less angry. link Kofi Annan is right on the money. Islam is not going anywhere, so in our wisdom, we need to realize how others may react when we tread on their ground and their freedom of belief. The question is not whether or not certain methods of retaliation are right or wrong. The question is, how well do we understand our differences from people with worldviews different from ours? What is it going to take? The US is in Iraq right now, imposing their ideas of democracy on people who do not know what democracy is, nor do they want it imposed on them. They have clearly stated in polls that they are in worse condition now than they were before the US invaded their country. When will we in the west learn that everyone doesn't think and see things the way we do? How far will we go? What's next? |
| Fairy 10.02.2006 06:32 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:When will we in the west learn that everyone doesn't think and see things the way we do? How far will we go? What's next?Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering. |
| Fairy 10.02.2006 06:32 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:When will we in the west learn that everyone doesn't think and see things the way we do? How far will we go? What's next?Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering. |
| The Real Wizard 10.02.2006 11:32 |
Fairy wrote: Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering.You're missing the point. I was referring to things we can actually prevent. Yes, we cannot prevent someone from getting onto a bus carrying a bomb, but we CAN prevent someone retaliating to a comic - by not publishing the comic! While some things are not in our hands, some definitely are. |
| Saint Jiub 10.02.2006 23:06 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:So if I cut off someone in my car, and they give me the finger, I am perfectly justified to run them of the road because they offended me and were not sensitive to my needs? Of course not. People, including children and radical Muslims, need to be able to control themselves. Why should the radical muslims be allowed to censor the west?Fairy wrote: Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering.You're missing the point. I was referring to things we can actually prevent. Yes, we cannot prevent someone from getting onto a bus carrying a bomb, but we CAN prevent someone retaliating to a comic - by not publishing the comic! While some things are not in our hands, some definitely are. Iran is concidering having their meida make satirical cartoons about the holocaust. I think that is an excellent idea, but does not go far enough. They should also do more cartoons about the decadent west. I doubt any embassies will get torched as a result though. Also, Cindy was not the only one booted for wearing an offensive t-shirt. A republican congressman's wife was also kicked out for wearing a "support the war" t-shirt. |
| Fairy 11.02.2006 08:42 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:I understand what you mean, and it's very sensible. But I wouldn't want our freedom to be limited just because their "seeing things differently" means that they will kill us if we don't follow their rules. I couldn't care less about cartoons, we can do without them all right. But what will be next? In Italy and elsewhere there were wild protests because Muslims wanted us to take our Christian crosses off our school walls. Then, some are starting to demand that Friday becomes holiday, and not Sunday. This would cause big trouble, since we can't have people of different faiths going on holiday on differend days! LOL.Fairy wrote: Em em...maybe when they stop hijacking our planes and dropping them on our buildings, or maybe when they stop getting on busses carrying bombs and killing civilians....When they stop threatening us on TV...or when they stop using their own children as human shields.........maybe that's what it would take for the West to stop interfering.You're missing the point. I was referring to things we can actually prevent. Yes, we cannot prevent someone from getting onto a bus carrying a bomb, but we CAN prevent someone retaliating to a comic - by not publishing the comic! While some things are not in our hands, some definitely are. I don't follow any religion, but I think Italy should not give up its heritage, history and culture. So though I don't go to church I'm against taking the crosses off school walls. We can't let this political correctness erase a people's identity. Will we need to start speaking Arabic and give up Italian? LOL I agree with what has been already said. Indignation towards those silly harmless cartoons was only the pretext to react violently, in the hope that the West takes other steps in the name of its pride, so that then more attacks and violence on their part are justified. This is only my 2 sense. Fairy |
| The Real Wizard 12.02.2006 18:51 |
Rip Van Winkle wrote: So if I cut off someone in my car, and they give me the finger, I am perfectly justified to run them of the road because they offended me and were not sensitive to my needs? Of course not. People, including children and radical Muslims, need to be able to control themselves. Why should the radical muslims be allowed to censor the west? Fairy wrote: I understand what you mean, and it's very sensible. But I wouldn't want our freedom to be limited just because their "seeing things differently" means that they will kill us if we don't follow their rules. I couldn't care less about cartoons, we can do without them all right.I completely agree with both of you. I'm just taking into account the fact that most muslim countries have not separated church and state, and that we have to figure into the equation that they will feel the need to react like they have. I'm not saying we're wrong and they're right. I'm saying that we have to give in, otherwise the violence will continue, unless their religious beliefs become a bit more moderate. But I don't see that happening any time soon: link Also, Cindy was not the only one booted for wearing an offensive t-shirt. A republican congressman's wife was also kicked out for wearing a "support the war" t-shirt.Interesting. Yay for freedom of speech, either way. |
| Saint Jiub 12.02.2006 21:40 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote: I'm not saying we're wrong and they're right. I'm saying that we have to give in, otherwise the violence will continue, unless their religious beliefs become a bit more moderate. But I don't see that happening any time soon: linkAt least the Pakistan protests have been relatively peaceful ... However, it seems to be powderkeg. |
| john bodega 13.02.2006 08:51 |
I must be insane. This is the kind of shit that makes me want to *draw* offensive cartoons. Violent protests don't bloody impress me one bit, I find them utterly pointless and then when people get shot dead during protests... it's completely wasteful. There really needs to be a law saying keep your religion to yourself. The odd crucifix or big rock or whatever is fine, but this shit has to stop. Only nutters take God over their own lives (and those of others). |
| Lisser 13.02.2006 10:47 |
all the posts are messed up. I can't tell which goes where. |
| spymyshadow 13.02.2006 14:45 |
Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:dear mr ghspymyshadow wrote: What it seemes to be the main reason of muslims being hurt is our (western) supposed making fun of Allah. But the real meaning of those pictures for me is not ridiculing a god but the use some people make of god. Muslims, or more simply some of them, expect to justify their wars against the west claiming this is Allah's will.Right, that is looking at it from OUR point of view. That is the mistake we in the west make. We use our western ways of thinking to speak for others who do not see the world as we do. But this isn't completely an east-west thing. Many muslims in the west are equally upset about this. Just because they aren't the ones burning down Danish embassies doesn't mean they're less angry. link Kofi Annan is right on the money. Islam is not going anywhere, so in our wisdom, we need to realize how others may react when we tread on their ground and their freedom of belief. The question is not whether or not certain methods of retaliation are right or wrong. The question is, how well do we understand our differences from people with worldviews different from ours? What is it going to take? The US is in Iraq right now, imposing their ideas of democracy on people who do not know what democracy is, nor do they want it imposed on them. They have clearly stated in polls that they are in worse condition now than they were before the US invaded their country. When will we in the west learn that everyone doesn't think and see things the way we do? How far will we go? What's next? the main reason because I'm analyzing those pictures from a western point of view is because western people did it not muslims.The question is what western people meant with that,and I'm quite3 confident about the message. Still, I'm not clever enough to see why muslims should think it as an offence to god,since it was not originally meant to be that, if putting it this way can make you feel better. Of course you're perfectly right about the fact that islamic countries were offended even worse than in papers, that is by making war, invading them and so on, and they have each and every right to protest against their being abused, provided that it is in a civil way. Recent events though led me to think that this is hard to achieve and those muslims you tell me about, not burning down embassies, seem not to be the majority. Those rarities don't hurt anybody, but they can't objectively reject and criticize the excesses and the madnesses of their religion, differently from you, who, though being a western, thanks all the same to your western education, have achieved the means to criticize the errors of you culture. |
| Music Man 13.02.2006 16:27 |
Lisser wrote: all the posts are messed up. I can't tell which goes where.Yes, I'm pretty lost. Eventually, though, if we keep posting, we'll get to the next page where it will return to normal. |