QueenZone discussion #694932
Who Wrote What Once Again - Musical Approach
| Sebastian 08.01.2006 09:46 |
Hello everybody. My idea is to leave the "journalistic evidences" to be discussed in the other thread (e.g. Brian/John/Roger/Freddie/David said...), while here the approach is more musical and lyrical (cross-references, trademarks, etc). Lyrics are "analysed" here not in a "what did he mean" way, but mostly looking at lirerary devices, certain figures of speech and of course thematical links (e.g. songs about fast-cars and nostalgia about teenage days are more usually Roger's). NONE of the following "conclusions" is introduced here as the Gospel truth whatsoever, but, I'm proud to say, it's a bloody strong argument in favour (or against) the "x wrote y" statements. Not all of the tracks are included here yet since, as you may know, it's not as easy as transcribing a quote: --------- ALL GOD'S PEOPLE: Lyrics use vers libre, and the religious approach isn't new for Fred: - "The great Lord before he died, knelt sinners by his side, and said 'you're going to realise tomorrow'" (Great King Rat, 1970) - "I have sinned dear Father" (Liar, 1970) - "It all began with the three wise men, followed a star took them to Bethlehem, and made it heard through all the land, born was a leader of man" (Jesus, 1971) - "To bring about the ruin of the promised land" (My Fairy King, 1971-1972) - "So all you people gather around, hold out your hands and praise the Lord" (Mad The Swine, 1971-1972) - "I get down on my knees and I start to pray" (Somebody To Love, 1976) - "If there's a God in the sky looking down what can we think of what we've done to the world that He created?" (Is This The World We Created?, 1984) - "God is heavy, laugh this time, luck this time" (Unreleased Demo, 1985) - "Tomorrow God knows just where I'll be" (Love Me Like There's No Tomorrow, 1985) - "And if God willing we will meet again someday" (Barcelona, 1987) - "Thank god you're still alive, you're still in one piece" (Hang On In There, 1989) - "If ALL GOD'S PEOPLE could be free to live in perfect harmony" (The Miracle, 1988) Notable similarities with Somebody To Love: - Waltz metre (6/8 and 12/8 respectively) - Interlude done over one single chord (Ab and F respectively). Ogre Battle, Black Queen, My Fairy King and Great King Rat are akin examples too. - Gospel feeling - Ad-libbed lyrics in middle and outro sections - "Lord" and "God" mentioned in the lyrics More Mercurian cross-references: - First verse is notably different from the others concerning its measurement (7 bars instead of 6) and phrasing (contains three measures which harmonically and melodically don't reappear), similarly to Mad The Swine. - All God's People is the only song in the Queen catalogue using 12/8 metre, still there are some previous episodes in which Fred "flirts" with the signature for a short-while: 6/8-12/8 hemiola in the solo of Jesus, 8/8-12/8 polyrhythm in the climax of Black Queen, and ocassional measures in Jealousy in which the metre is altered. Harmony: - The use of the I function in a minor key (e.g. D in the key of Dm) was something practiced both by Brian (White Queen, Prophet's Song, Why Don't We Try Again, Dream Of Thee) and Freddie (Black Queen, You Take My Breath Away, Princes Of The Universe, Love Kills, Let's Turn It On). There are two cases of Roger using that in his solo albums as well: Laugh Or Cry and Nazis. - bII function in a minor key (IV of VI): Freddie trademark (Black Queen, Death On Two Legs, You Take My Breath Away, Princes Of The Universe, Love Kills). So far the only non-Mercury track in Queen I've found using that function is White Queen. In Brian's and Roger's solo careers there's one example each: Dream Of Thee and Nazis. - ivdim function in a minor key: Bohemian Rhapsod |
| Serry... 08.01.2006 10:11 |
Thanks Seb! Amazing work! Some more quotes from Freddie's songs to prove your words: - "You say God give me a choice/You say Lord I say Christ" (Bicycle Race) - Both "In The Laps Of The Gods" songs. - Whole "The Fallen Priest". - "Precious Lord hear my plea - yeah/Lord ... take care of me" (How Can I Go On) |
| Sebastian 08.01.2006 10:52 |
I'M GOING SLIGHTLY MAD: - A variant of the intro ends the song: Lily Of The Valley, Ogre Battle, Seven Seas Of Rhye, Somebody To Love, Jealousy, Don't Stop Me Now, Don't Try Suicide. - Two almost identical cycles after which there are no more verses: Killer Queen, In The Lap Of The Gods ... Revisited, Love Of My Life, Bohemian Rhapsody, You Take My Breath Away, Keep Passing The Open Windows, Kashoggi's Ship, My Baby Does Me. - Solo over chorus and/or bridge progression or variant: Mad The Swine, Killer Queen, Bohemian Rhapsody, My Melancholy Blues, Play The Game, Crazy Little Thing Called Love, Don't Try Suicide, It's A Hard Life, Keep Passing The Open Windows, The Miracle. - Harmonic minor mode: Death On Two Legs, Bicycle Race, The Kiss, Princes Of The Universe, Living On My Own, Bijou. - iihalfdim function: You Take My Breath Away - iidim chord: Millionaire Waltz, Bo Rhap - biiidim chord: Bring Back That Leroy Brown, Lap Of The Gods, Millionaire Waltz, Melancholy Blues, Barcelona - bvidim: Bring Back That Leroy Brown, How Can I Go On - i>I tonal centre change: Vagabond Outcast, Play The Game (disputable), Love Me Like There's No Tomorrow, Exercises In Free Love - Using the III (V-vi) function of the new key as pivot for the modulation: Play The Game (disputable), Innuendo, and Brian's Brighton Rock. - I>bVII modulation: Black Queen, Ogre Battle, Killer Queen, The Millionaire Waltz, Jealousy, It's A Hard Life, Love Me Like There's No Tomorrow, Barcelona, Hang On In There. Also by Brian and Roger in their solo career: Driven By You and A Nation Of Haircuts. - I>ii tonal centre change: It's A Hard Life, Princes Of The Universe, Liar, and Brian's The Night Comes Down. - I>II modulation, very common for Freddie (Green, Ogre Battle, Seven Seas, Black Queen, Killer Queen, Bo Rhap, It's A Hard Life, The Miracle), still it was used at least once by the others: Procession, Keep Yourself Alive, Misfire, A Nation Of Haircuts. ---------------- INNUENDO: Coincidentially, Innuendo is one of the few later day tracks containing acoustic guitar in principal parts. It could have been influenced by the contemporary acoustic trend of 1989 and 1990: - January 1989, Tesla releases the single Love Song, which hits the top ten in America - Tesla's 'The Great Radio Controversy' album, containing Love Song, released in February 1st 1989, earning double platinum in the US - XTC perform in May the first MTV Unplugged - Guns N' Roses' Patience hits the top ten at both sides of the Atlantic in July 1989 - Jon Bon Jovi and Richie Sambora do an acoustic version of Wanted Dead Or Alive at MTV Video Awards ´89 - Kiss' acoustic single Forever hits American charts in October - 1990 features MTV Unplugged shows by Steve Ray Vaughan, Joe Satriani, Don Henley, Damn Yankees, Elton John, Aerosmith, Black Crowes and Tesla - Extreme releases More Than Words and hits #1 in the US, Israel and Holland. Now to songwriting trademarks: - An early section is featured as variant in the interlude as in Bohemian Rhapsody, where "easy come easy go" from the intro re-appears in double tempo at the operatic bit. - Three new sections in the middle, only appearing once, first and second bounded by a verse variant, as in Don't Try So Hard - Verse presents itself as the core of the song, appearing halved several times as in All God's People and Delilah - F/E and A/G# dissonances, similarly to The Miracle - Use of Hijaz mode as in Mustapha - I>III modulation: Freddie's Seven Seas, Bo Rhap, Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy and Get Down Make Love as well as Brian's Back To The Light (1988) - I>VI modulation: Roger's Modern Times Rock N' Roll, John's Need Your Loving Tonight, Brian's Hammer To Fall and Thank God It's Christmas, Freddie's How Can I Go On and Ogre Battle (disputable). - Clever section expasion (chorus in this case) as in Don't Stop Me Now - |
| Sebastian 08.01.2006 10:56 |
Thanks Sergey, nice contribution. I think Fallen Priest is Tim Rice's though ;). No wonder, Freddie certainly was a great musician, but Mike Moran was a hell of a lot better, as well as Tim was way ahead of him in lyrics (Golden Boy is his as well, if I'm correct). |
| John S Stuart 08.01.2006 13:12 |
Nice work Seb, but what does this REALLY show? I mean what stops one from plagiarising or re-cycling the work of another? You have tantalising tit-bits, and a mountain of guess-work (remember your home demo argument?) but again no solid evidence. EG: Elvis Presly sang the line: "I'd rather see you dead little girl than to be with another man". 'Baby Let's Play House' John Lennon sang the line: "I'd rather see you dead little girl than to be with another man". 'Run For Your Life' Are you REALLY suggesting that both 'Baby Let's Play House' and 'Run For Your Life' were written by the SAME person because they both use the same recycled line? Another example: Carl Perkins wrote the line: "Well, If you don't want my peaches honey, please don't shake my tree". 'Matchbox' Steve miller wrote the line: "I really love your peaches Want to shake your tree" 'Joker' Finally: Roger repeats the 'Bohemian Rhapsody' line: "Mama, I aint crazy" 'Rock It (Prime Jive)' I do not mean to be negative, or to rain on your parade, but, all I am saying is, yes, perhaps Freddie and others did have favourite 'turns of phrase', but we can not use these phrases to demonstrate who wrote what, because as we see above, once an idea enters the collective consciousness, it could belong to anyone. |
| Serry... 08.01.2006 13:35 |
I don't think that lyrics are the main evidence here of who wrote the song... It's my fault that I came with lyrics' reply firstly, I guess. Especially in AGP case, when we know for sure who wrote it, because of "Africa By the Night" etc. Sebastian, as we know Freddie usually had some input in John's songs, so my question is: is it possible to say for sure that for instance "Don't try so hard" is a Freddie's song, but not just another reworked John's idea? I ain't musician therefore the question is pretty stupid, but anyway... (It's just strange for me that John didn't write any song for "Innuendo", quite unusually) And another question about "Soul Brother" - so who wrote it? :) |
| Sebastian 08.01.2006 16:41 |
John: read again. > NONE of the following "conclusions" is introduced here as the Gospel truth whatsoever I can put it again: > NONE of the following "conclusions" is introduced here as the Gospel truth whatsoever Just one more to be clear: > NONE of the following "conclusions" is introduced here as the Gospel truth whatsoever Of course I'm not saying that, for instance, if a song contains the word "ain't" it's neccesarily Brian's. It'd be completely stupid. STILL, everybody's got their own style, which is what here I'm TRYING to decipher (the "list" is still in embryos). This is not a parade or a claim to be a genius whatsoever, it's just a compilation of SERIOUS and STRONG evidence. Whether you like it or not, ANY composer (especially a proffessional one like Roger, Freddie, John or Brian) has got an own style, and there are indeed combination of harmonic, melodic and structural aspects that make a song sound Brian-esque, Freddie-esque, Lennon-esque or whatever. The combination of those many little details (of which a large part is completely unknown yet at least by me, but I'm entitled to start from somewhere) is what makes each one of them a unique composer, and what makes that nobody else writes the same way. For instance, if we find that 'x' track's got certain harmonic function that is usually found only on John's songs, it of course doesn't prove as an absolute that it's John's. It just suggests so, but of course it can be the one time Roger or Brian or Fred tried out the same element. BUT if we put that together with twenty other clearly John's trademarks, then it's much more obvious that the song is MOST LIKELY Deacon's, not Roger's or Brian's or Beethoven's. Just for the record (and before anybody else jumps at me), I'm not some conceited tart who enrages everytime somebody disagrees. Neither I mind disagreements nor I put those listings in order to have glory whatsoever. But I am bothered by those attempts to set me up and dismiss everything researched by me (or anybody who's not John for that matter). Even with mountains of SERIOUS research and CONFIRMABLE evidence that, for instance, Don't Try So Hard, is not in the slightest way John's, everything is still "only" a guess? Well, yes, perhaps. But not more than your ridiculous claims of Queen II recorded on 8-tracks or Fred writing CLTCL in upright piano, the latter based on a quote terribly misunderstood (and it's funny that you kept putting down other people's English after having misread such an obvious thing), the first on... I don't know, your self proclaimed almight, I GUESS. |
| John S Stuart 08.01.2006 17:15 |
Sebastian wrote: Just for the record (and before anybody else jumps at me), I'm not some conceited tart who enrages everytime somebody disagrees. Neither I mind disagreements nor I put those listings in order to have glory whatsoever. But I am bothered by those attempts to set me up and dismiss everything researched by me (or anybody who's not John for that matter).Oh Seb, you have a flair for being dramatic and taking such things so personally. First: Although I disagree with your outcomes - it does NOT mean that I think you are being silly or foolish. However, for example, you can have 20 or 30 or 50 pointers to a John Deacon song - and still be wrong. This is what is known in legal circles as 'circumstantial evidence', and without any other back-up evidence, it is not worth a tin of beans. To convict means to prove beyond a doubt, and as you can NOT do that, as an ideas forum, we have a right to reply. Deny that right, and you become a dictator - demanding what I should think. Yes - I make mistakes, but I also stand up when I get things wrong. It is called the learning process. The difference between us is I think you are closed minded. Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically the enemy. Can I assure you that is not the case. Second: The whole point of some collaborations is that they are teamwork. If you like football, of course you can have a 'man of the match' the person who most influenced the game, but, without the assistance of his ten teamates, he would be nothing. Lets look back at the making of 'One Vision' video. There we see first hand the process of who wrote what - and it is still a messy hybrid mish-mass of ideas, so to try and seperate that out, is like trying to seperate a cake into individual ingredients and then saying - 'the butter is the MOST important part'. Bullocks - without the other ingredients, there would be NO cake! Now this is NOT criticising your work, nor is it dissing what you are trying to do, but please do not try and make out that this belittles what you do. If you are not willing to let me (or others discuss) your work - why pretend it is a discussion? |
| Sebastian 08.01.2006 21:31 |
> However, for example, you can have 20 or 30 or 50 pointers to a John Deacon song - and still be wrong. Yes. Still, the possibility of not being his song is reduced, and that's my point. Those "pointers" aren't an absolute evidence, but they're not "void guesses" either. > The difference between us is I think you are closed minded. And I'm not trying to make you think otherwise. Honestly I don't care about what you think of me. Believe it or not I don't mind if anybody disagrees, but it's completely different from dismissing anything I say while you've made absurd mistakes yourself. > Anyone who disagrees with you is automatically the enemy. It's interesting that you defend all sorts of proffessional approaches (which I agree with) such as veryfing many possibilities, not looking at 3D situations with 2D perspectives etc and at the same time you're assuming how is my personality like based on what I've posted on a forum (and not even ALL I've posted, but what you conveniently select and read your own way). I truly respect what you preach, but IMHO you're very far from practicing it. > The whole point of some collaborations is that they are teamwork. I haven't denied that. I think none of the songs were 100% written by just one person. Still there's one main composer and that's what I'm researching. If you find such approach so useless, needless, pointless and absurd, then why on earth do you read these threads? I receive several mails per week from people asking me "who wrote what" for both Queen or Beatles. My previous site (which I never liked to be honest) was averagely popular because there were MANY people who were/are interested in pigeonholing such details. In this and many other forums the "who wrote what" questions pop-up every month. It demonstrates that many people are interested in that. If you're not one of them there's nothing wrong with that. But you ought to respect if any other person wants to know who wrote Show Must Go On and gather as much evidence as possible and to put it together in the most effective form at their reach. In my case, I can't offer an "absolute" since I didn't film they whenever they were writting (or not writting) the tracks. What I can offer with my moderated musical knowledge is a list of details that POINT that x song MOST LIKELY is or isn't from Roger, John, Freddie or Brian. Not I'm proclaming myself to be almighty whatsoever, I'm just, respectfully, doing my part and offering it the best way I can. If you think it's just a combination of ramblings from a nasty pigheaded gumpy who cannot take critiscism, then the best solution is something that apparently you in your endless wisdom haven't been able to figure out: whenever you see a topic whose starter is me, ignore it and both you and I would be much happier. > Lets look back at the making of 'One Vision' video. You defend all kinds of scientific approaches. Yet now you're judging just from one 20-30 minute filming. Utterly ridiculous from beginning to end. > but please do not try and make out that this belittles what you do. I feel it does. Not what I do, but what anything other than you do. If you say some absurd "fact" like the 8-track thing etc, we MUST believe it. If anybody else states anything, especially if it's about a topic you're not the number one genius at, then it's just useless guessing. > If you are not willing to let me (or others discuss) your work - why pretend it is a discussion? If you think so, then don't enter to any thread whose topic starter is me and you can save your obviously valuable time. And I can save mine. And other people, who are willing to read those topics, some agreeing with part of that, some disagreeing and expressing so without dismissing it as pointless speculation, can have much more space to enjoy it. |
| jcrawford79 08.01.2006 22:36 |
Although I have a workable knowledge of music theory, I find it hard to identify certain patterns of each individual songwriter. With exception, of course, to the obvious generalizations (i.e. John typically wrote 'pop' songs while most of the harder songs are Brian's). So, therefore, I find this a very interesting thread. Thanks for taking the time to share your educated opinion with us. |
| get_it_up_your_duff 09.01.2006 02:14 |
you guys have too much time on your hands. try getting a g/f |
| Mr. Barcelona 10.01.2006 00:47 |
It's time to get a life. |
| g2000 10.01.2006 10:45 |
we can never be totally sure of anything that happens, heck did dinosaurs really rule the earth!?! sebastian, i find your posts very informative. |