QueenZone discussion #673906

chewing gum bum wrote: Thank you John. I just recently heard Silver Salmon for the first time. And I've been a fan for 28 years. The recording of that track to me sounds like it was recorded around the time of the News of the World Sessions. Here is why. Drummers help me out here. Roger was using timbales througout this song. They were also used during Get Down Make Love, the drum break in Sheer Heart Attack, Who Needs You as well as on the BBC sessions in October of 77. Roger was endorsed by Ludwig drums and didn't have timbales until after the Day at the Races tour. He's also using more drums than what he originally started out with in the early years. His kit has the exact same tones as that of the "News" sessions, tom toms, snare and cymbals. Much bigger sound than that of the De Lane Lea studio sessions in the early 70's which were "tight" sounding and dead. Roger is also using a china type cymbal which, again, wasn't acquired until around the start of the "Races" tour. His cymbals in the early 70's were mostly crashes and rides. But on Silver Salmon you can certainly hear that china type being hit. The most common theory is that this track was recorded in the early 70's but the drumss are a giveaway that it must have been recorded in the summer of 77. Discuss...

David Jones wrote: I'll leave the deciding of which sessions it comes from up to the rest of you, I can't pass judgement myself, but it does make for interesting reading. Who is that making the 12 string comments? It sounds like Roy Thomas Baker a bit! Many thanks for this more complete version though John!

chewing gum bum wrote: Thank you Sir GH. I was hesitant to bring this up but you seem to have the exact theory I do about Silver Salmon. I too believe it was just a jam. Freddie even says before the edit, " Let's try Silver Salmon. I know he doesn't know it..." I think he's referring to John when they were just messing around in the studio. Deakey probably didn't play it with them when they first got him into the band. But you're correct. Most people tend to believe this was recorded in the early 70's. And it's part of Queens' folklore. The timbales were gone for the Jazz tours and replaced with roto-toms. You can even see Roger using them in Get Down Make Love from the Houston gig. And yes, I have heard "Feelings" from the "News"sessions. GREAT tune! Again, Roger uses timbales on that song as well.

Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:

chewing gum bum wrote: Thank you John. I just recently heard Silver Salmon for the first time. And I've been a fan for 28 years. The recording of that track to me sounds like it was recorded around the time of the News of the World Sessions. Here is why. Drummers help me out here. Roger was using timbales througout this song. They were also used during Get Down Make Love, the drum break in Sheer Heart Attack, Who Needs You as well as on the BBC sessions in October of 77. Roger was endorsed by Ludwig drums and didn't have timbales until after the Day at the Races tour. He's also using more drums than what he originally started out with in the early years. His kit has the exact same tones as that of the "News" sessions, tom toms, snare and cymbals. Much bigger sound than that of the De Lane Lea studio sessions in the early 70's which were "tight" sounding and dead. Roger is also using a china type cymbal which, again, wasn't acquired until around the start of the "Races" tour. His cymbals in the early 70's were mostly crashes and rides. But on Silver Salmon you can certainly hear that china type being hit. The most common theory is that this track was recorded in the early 70's but the drumss are a giveaway that it must have been recorded in the summer of 77. Discuss...

Thank you!!!!!!!!! I once made the exact same observation, but nobody agreed with me, as we didn't seem to have any drum experts here. Roger's drum kit was always a dead giveaway to me, and Freddie's voice sounds like the NOTW era as well. His vocals don't sound nearly as high and angelic as they did in the early days. I made the suggestion that perhaps Queen could have revived the song for a fun jam in 1977, but everyone dismissed the possibility, with no little to grounds for doing so. There has been little critical listening done to this recording, and most others (including concert material, but that's another subject). The chatter before the song may not be from the same session. There's a cut, and even a tape stretch before the song begins. In these days of software audio editing, anything is possible. This could easily dismiss the idea that John "doesn't know the song". There is no proof that this song could not have been revisited, and I see the drums and vocals as glaring evidence of it being from 1977. Have you heard the song "Feelings Feelings", from the NOTW sessions? If not, then I'll post a link. Compare the drum sound and Freddie's vocals in the songs, and you'll be even more convinced that this take of Silver Salmon is from 1977.

GreatKingSam wrote: Sorry for quoting both, I just feel the need to include. I think, the highness of Freddie's and Roger's speaking voices, as evident from this mp3 (thanks John...) to me indicate that it is far far earlier than the NOTW sessions. I just think they sound just too plain young for it to be '77. And, I am a drummer, although it doesnt mean what Im about to say is correct (or meant to discredit any former posts), but sometimes a poor recording (well, compared to a studio copy) can make cybals sound different to what they really are. A bit of fuzz on a deep crash and it could give the impression of a china cymbal. But I wouldnt pin the possible inclusion of a china cymbal on this take of Polar Bear to the fact that it may be from in or around the NOTW sessions. And I know a lot of drummers who do not include certain drums in their live set-up in comparison with what they used in the studio (this may be due to size restrictions, e.g. want more space to fit other drums, or have simply had a shuffle, weren't feeling it that night etc). Those horrid electrnoic drums were used during the making of the Hot Space album, yet live (bar the odd pad) Rog used the real things. Doesn't mean that the Hot Space songs were all conceived far far earlier due to the use (or non-use) of certain percussion-based items.

FriedChicken<br><font size=1>The Almighty</font> wrote: "Have you heard the song "Feelings Feelings", from the NOTW sessions? If not, then I'll post a link. Compare the drum sound and Freddie's vocals in the songs, and you'll be even more convinced that this take of Silver Salmon is from 1977." Bob, I don't know if you (or other people) have heard the song that comes BEFORE Silver Salmon. (On the mp3 which leaked out you can just hear the last few notes of the previous song) But in that song Freddie sings lyrics which are so similar to Feelings Feelings.... And on that song Roger also plays a China So Maybe.........

John S Stuart wrote: This is what Wilki is talking about... (Stick on repeat play!) link Can this REALLY be from 1977?

Fireplace wrote: How about the lyrics of Silver Salmon? I have no clue what they are about, but it sounds like a biblical theme to me. Weren't Queen out of that by 1977? They sound more like something you'd find on the first album.

YourValentine wrote: Silver Salmon was written by Tim Staffell, not by Freddie.

FriedChicken<br><font size=1>The Almighty</font> wrote: Please people. Note that I didn't mean the Feelings track which is really from 1977. The one which starts with "number 9, number 9" and which goes like this in the bridge "Now that I'm here, I can see you so clearly" I mean the track which comes BEFORE Silver Salmon. And the ending of that track is the beginning of the Silver Salmon mp3 most people here will have. I believe Greg Brooks called this song "Feelings Feelings" (and not Feelings!)

Wilki wrote:

By the way, Silver Salmon (the real one: 'part 2') is indeed written solely by Timothy John Staffell - NO Brian nor Roger and certainly no Freddie nor John co-credit whatsoever.

So why did GB state Brian... Oh never mind, I have answered my own question!!!

zaiga wrote: The track could have been written by Freddie in 1970, and then performed by Queen in the studio in 1977, for God knows what reason. Maybe Freddie just wanted to try the track again. This is plausible. After recording ANATO and ADATR, the went back to rootsier music, and perhaps they thought this track might fit in. Something similar happened with Roger's track "Shear Heart Attack", which wasn't quite finished during the recording of the album with the same name and then had to keep the track in the closet until NOTW, because it didn't fit on the previous albums.

This recording being from 1977 would explain the remark "he doesn't know it", if "he" indeed refers to John. If the track had been written and only performed before John joined the band. Then again, that doesn't prove much, because the recording could have come from anytime after John joined (1971 and onward). Then again, I'm not an expert, but it doesn't sound like the bass player didn't have a clue what he was doing during the song (the bass playing sounds fine to me), so perhaps the "he" refers to someone else (perhaps a producer, or engineer, who obviously wouldn't know the song either, if this indeed is from 1977).

The song ending with bits of Liar and Seven Seas is confusing. Perhaps someone was trying to make the demo sound "authentic" by pasting little bits of older songs into it? We can only guess. I don't know. The SoS certainly sounds "modern" (ie. post-Queen I), but if someone tampered with things, that proves very little.

Finally, the drums do have that 1977 sound to it, so it certainly is a possibility. But I'm absolutely no expert at such matters, I don't really hear the difference between this drum sound, and say the drum sound on the De Lane Lea studio demoes, unless someone could point out the specific differences to me.

GreatKingSam wrote: ...you know what? I could've sworn you we

John S Stuart wrote:

Wilki wrote:

By the way, Silver Salmon (the real one: 'part 2') is indeed written solely by Timothy John Staffell - NO Brian nor Roger and certainly no Freddie nor John co-credit whatsoever.

So why did GB state Brian... Oh never mind, I have answered my own question!!!

The Fonz wrote: What a bizarre path this thread has taken! Good work everyone, and thanks to JSS for upping the 'fuller' version of the song. Now, what I want to know is - what are track01/02/03?

John S Stuart wrote:

The Fonz wrote: What a bizarre path this thread has taken! Good work everyone, and thanks to JSS for upping the 'fuller' version of the song. Now, what I want to know is - what are track01/02/03?

I could tell you - but I would have to kill you in the process!

The Fonz wrote:

John S Stuart wrote:

The Fonz wrote: What a bizarre path this thread has taken! Good work everyone, and thanks to JSS for upping the 'fuller' version of the song. Now, what I want to know is - what are track01/02/03?

I could tell you - but I would have to kill you in the process!

Ooh - steady on big guy! ;-)

John S Stuart wrote: I could tell you - but I would have to kill you in the process! Too many James Bond movies - coupled with a not too fantastic social life :-(

scallyuk wrote: Just wondered what's the legal position over some of the rarities you have like studio acetates , master tapes etc. I seem to remember from a copywrite class I took that the purchaser owns the physical tape and the recording that's on it but has no rights over the content . So in theory you can basically only listen to it yourself , never let anyone else hear it and can't release it or copies of it in any format. N

GreatKingSam wrote: What if it's a private club, or a private disco?

zaiga wrote:

GreatKingSam wrote: What if it's a private club, or a private disco?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think private clubs and discos also have to pay royalties when playing copyrighted work. There's certainly a gray area here, somewhere. Also, copyright laws differ ever so slightly from country to country, so what's legal here may be illegal in, say the US or Japan, and vice versa.

zaiga wrote:

GreatKingSam wrote: What if it's a private club, or a private disco?

I'm not 100% sure, but I think private clubs and discos also have to pay royalties when playing copyrighted work. There's certainly a gray area here, somewhere. Also, copyright laws differ ever so slightly from country to country, so what's legal here may be illegal in, say the US or Japan, and vice versa.

scallyuk wrote: Just wondered what's the legal position over some of the rarities you have like studio acetates , master tapes etc. I seem to remember from a copywrite class I took that the purchaser owns the physical tape and the recording that's on it but has no rights over the content . So in theory you can basically only listen to it yourself , never let anyone else hear it and can't release it or copies of it in any format.

Wilki wrote: The other is the take 9 of Feelings, Feelings (the one with the line "now that you're here"). This one is indeed from the 1977 NEWS OF THE WORLD Sessions and has a very different sound to the above mentioned recordings, as it comes from a completely different source. So, tying both recordings is just guessing.

GreatKingSam wrote: I was only joking lol, but it's interesting to know! Thanks mate.

scallyuk wrote: Fair Dealing can apply to literary, dramatic, musical and artisitic works (for research and private study), but it doesn't apply to audio/visual materials such as broadcasts, film, video or sound recordings (although just to confuse you) 'Fair Dealing' can be claimed in these materials if the use is for news reporting, criticism and review purposes.

zaiga wrote: Also tying "Feelings, feelings" to "Silver Salmon (take 9)" isn't a matter of guesswork, it's a matter of using your ears. In both songs Roger clearly, and oftenly hits timbales. They make a very distinguishable sound, higher and louder than toms. If toms sound like "thump", timbales more sound like "clank". I had never heard of these things, until people on this forum pointed it out to me, but upon listening the sound is quite easy to make out. Now, the thing is that Roger *only* used timbales during the NOTW sessions (like on "Feelings, Feelings", but also on "Get Down Make Love" for instance), not before and not after. So, unless someone can come up with an earlier song where timbales are used, or unless someone else has some other good explanation, I'm inclined to believe that "Silver Salmon", like "Feelings, feelings" also is from the NOTW sessions, as improbable as it may seem.

GreatKingSam wrote: zaiga... Exactly. As I've said before, he began to use a larger array of toms throughout the A Night At The Opera and A Day At The Races sessions, with the newer toms tuned far tighter for more of a timbale-esque sound. Obviously, he then acquired some timbales at the end of '76, and these were then the latest addition to his set for what were to become the NOTW sessions. The more I listen to Silver Salmon, and the more I listen top tracks like We Are The Champions, Spread Your Wings, Get Down Make Love etc, the more Silver Salmon sounds from '77.

YourValentine wrote: Hopefully, the Queen archivist will shed some light on this some day.

YourValentine wrote: Would you drum specialists please listen to Modern Times Rock'n Roll at the Beeb? Don't the drums sound similar to SS?

Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:

YourValentine wrote: Would you drum specialists please listen to Modern Times Rock'n Roll at the Beeb? Don't the drums sound similar to SS?

Not at all. It's a completely different drum kit. Snare, toms, everything.

Sir GH<br><h6>ah yeah</h6> wrote:

YourValentine wrote: Would you drum specialists please listen to Modern Times Rock'n Roll at the Beeb? Don't the drums sound similar to SS?

Not at all. It's a completely different drum kit. Snare, toms, everything.

GreatKingSam wrote: "If you listen to the end of the SS and the the interlude to the guitar solo and drum solo of Son & Daughter from Queen at the Beeb it sounds similar (you can even compare the sound to the "The Night Comes Down" from the first album), the main difference is that SS has some reverb and bass added to it (even though i didn't listen to it on Headphones). _ I'm not a drum expert so i'll leave it to you, but JSS is right, until we have a better quality one..." It does not sound similar at all. The bass drum, the snare, the toms... the lot - all completely different, and far deeper. As we KEEP saying - it's the TIMBALES that give it away. '77 only. I'll have a proper listen when I get a chance, but even just from memory it is blatantly obvious these drums sound different, drum-expert or not.

GreatKingSam wrote: Regarding the "doesn't make sense to re-record it in '77" comments... why not? Like they all have said, for the NOTW sessions, they wanted harder, more raw sound - and Silver Salmon, to me, fits that perfectly. That said, perhaps they were just giving it a try to see how it would sounds perhaps? But I don't think it's such as black and white as "why would they revisit an old track", especially when, as far as we know, they've never officially recorded a studio version of it? A lot of bands re-work tracks and include them on later albums.

Add to this the fact that apparently Feelings Feelings was also Brian's OLD song, remember they diiged out "Sheer Heart Attack" from 3 years before, we just found out WATC was written by ANATO... C'mon- it makes more than perfect sense thay also tried Silver Salmon!!!!!!! Look- there's already 2 songs on the album that are DEFINITELY from the past, there's a demo that we know Brian wrote pre-NOTW... The more I think about it- the more sense it does make... Why the hell couldn't they also dig out SS?

dysan wrote: I'll say it again. If FF is older than NOTW how do we know it was recorded at those sessions? If we are questioning SS then I think we can question FF. The drum arguement is wrong too.... it is just an instument that could have quite easily come and gone at various points B4 becoming a fixture in the kit. The fact it is a pre Queen song and the singing is so 'young' Freddie means to me it is an older demo from the first album era. Remember, they may not even have been using their drums and amps etc if studio time was limited (I know... I've been there!) so it is likely they could've had an unfamiliar drumkit.

Bobby_brown wrote: If you listen to the end of the SS and the the interlude to the guitar solo and drum solo of Son & Daughter from Queen at the Beeb it sounds similar (you can even compare the sound to the "The Night Comes Down" from the first album), the main difference is that SS has some reverb and bass added to it (even though i didn't listen to it on Headphones).

YourValentine wrote: "Out of interest, which one of 'Feelings' and 'Feelings Feelings' starts with the fella saying "...number nine, number nine..." - I assume 'Feelings Feelings'? " Wilki already explained that on page 5 of this thread. This discussion is in a dead end street. Here is the intro, or Silver Salmon part 1 or Feelings intro or whatever it was called (not Feelings Feelings from the NOTW sessions) link

Nummer2 wrote: I didn't mean to add confusion, sorry. I didn't know the "Feelings intro" to Silver Salmon till today, so I really meant to compare "Feelings Feelings" from 1977 to Silver Salmon. Of course they aren't from the exactly same session, but I can imagine them both being from the same row of studio sessions when they were recording or rehearsing for NOTW. Feelings Feelings of course isn't as raw as Silver Salmon and mixed in a different way, so the technical sound is quite different. But there remain lots of indications that both are from the same time. SS doesn't fit into the BBC or the De Lane Lea sessions nor does it sound like "Queen" (the album) – in my opinion.

Barry Durex wrote: ^ I think that was all disproved a while back.

pittrek wrote: Ehm, by Barry Mitchell.

pittrek wrote: Ehm, by Barry Mitchell.