| Fairy 09.07.2005 15:53 |
I'm kind of annoyed by people who will keep complaining about our Western leaders and their policies. But I too hate war and violence, so I would like to hear from anyone who has any reasonable, practical solution on how to end terrorism which does not imply war. If trying to liberate these countries from their cruel leaders is wrong, then what is there to be done? We can't just say that war is bad. This is something people like Brian can say, because well, it's fashionable and it doesn't hurt your image anyway. I'd just like to hear any practical alternatives. I hope there are! I don't mean to be provocative. I'm really interested in hearing different points of view. But please don't suggest any euthopias. I'm talking about real solutions, as if you were the leader of the US or the UK right now. Anyone? Fairy |
| rachael mae. 09.07.2005 16:29 |
I agree Fairy. But I have nothing useful to say :P |
| bitesthedust 09.07.2005 16:30 |
we need to remove those who may cause terror so we can have peace. |
| doremi 09.07.2005 16:43 |
This has gone on since mankind began. Tyranny, evil, dictators, people with fanatic evil agendas or who just enjoy inflicting pain and suffering, will always exist. There have been Ghandis, and Jesus Christs and Buddahs, and Dahli Lamas since the beginning of mankind who TRIED to stop evil with WORDS and DEEDS of humanity, of compassion, of tolerance. They also (with the exception of Buddha) were all assasinated by those very evil tyrants. We cannnot become cynical, and give up hope, tolerance, and humanity. This week, I saw the world..and England rejoice with 3 pivotal events that brought out the BEST in people all over the world. Those 3 events were, Live 8, the G8 Summit, and the Olympics, all which celbrated the indomitable spirit of GOOD that IS in many people..rockin' all over the world. Sorry to get mucshy, gushy here. But my heart soared this week. Well, last night, ABC News in the USA voted their usual person of the week. But THIS time, they said they were making an exception..and voting the PERSONS of the week, that is, The People Of London and The UK, who after all the joy, you all had from Live 8, the G8 and The Olympics...suffered such tragedy...and...ENDURED and TRIUMPHED and on Friday, you all prevailed and life went on. The news showed Winston Churchill and the Brits during WW2 when you all had suffered the blitz and The UK looked like one pile of burning rubble, and the news spoke of how, the people in Britain, after decades of being the victims of WW2, terrorism, etc...always Prevail and LOVE life and appreciate life. Well, we around the world, like the people of London and the UK, cannot lose our humanity, our faith, our hope. We must continue to try to have a dialogue with people of other cultures and nations...and TRY to have a dialogue and tolerant undersatnding about their idealogies. But...when people commit acts of violence and terror on us...there is nothing to do, but defend ourselves. I have no answer but that. One must defend oneself when attacked with brutality and violence. When NOT dealing with ratioanl people, but irrational cults and fanatics, tyrants, that is the only thing I can think of..to do. Sorry. |
| doremi 09.07.2005 16:47 |
Barry © wrote: Why are they attacking us in the first place? this is the question we need to ask.Sometimes there ARE rational reasons. But..Sometimes, there are NONE. WW2, WW1, through time, you will always have evil tryrants who kill and destroy for NO reason, but EVIL. Why do everyday people rob, rape, beat, and murder one another? Why do parents beat, kill or molest their own children? Why do the leaders in Africa live lives of extravagent luxury while allowing millions of women and children to die every 3 seconds, taking these peoples' food, resources, even intentionally committing genocide and killing their own people? Sometimes you cannot beat yourselves up looking for rational explanations. And accept that there are evil people in this world. |
| Maz 09.07.2005 16:52 |
WW1 was a tradtional war based on long-held prejudices and beliefs. There was no ''evil'' inherent in that war, other than the ''normal'' evil that accompanies war. The point I'm making is that WW1 did not have a Hitler bent on destroying an entire race, but was more about expanding influences and control in an imperialistic fashion. |
| Smitty 09.07.2005 19:21 |
We will never end terrorism. All we can do is remove the Mid-east terrorists and there will be less (and hopefully no more) attacks. To have a goal to remove all of the terrorists is to have an unreachable goal. All we are working for is to get the new midle eastern democracy settled and strong so that they will be controlling the problem and the other countries will be helping much less until there is eventual peace. My only great fear is that our next President is EXTREMELY anti war and gets congress and the Supreme Court to pass the order to remove all of the troops wiht out finishing their job. There will be chaos if that happens. |
| DarkQueen 09.07.2005 20:47 |
War IS terrorism. The only reason America is so pro-war is because it's not taking place on their fucking doorsteps. On top of that, this whole liberation thing is a load of shit. The shi'ites will take over Iraq and their more traditional woman beaters than the sunnis - where's the liberation in that? Maybe Saddam was a tyrant but imo, he's not as bad as Bush (who's a passive serial killer for fuck's sake). First off, I reckon they should get rid of bush. Then they can think up an alternative. ...And no, I don't have any other alternative to that fucking war. |
| dragonzflame 10.07.2005 00:45 |
Barry © wrote: Why are they attacking us in the first place? this is the question we need to ask.Because your Prime Minister is friends with Bush and therefore you deserve it. Really, I don't know. I wish I did. All I can really add is that I heard on the news this morning that mosques are now getting vandalised in retaliation to the London bombing. The people whose places of religious worship have been damaged are just as innocent as those who were killed, they just happen to have slightly more in common ie. Islam, despite radically different interpretations of it. So the question we need to ask is, are the people who would vandalise mosques as payback really any better than the bombers? |
| DarkQueen 10.07.2005 01:03 |
dragonzflame wrote:No, but it's not like the vandalised mosques are gonna be flashed all over the news - the media couldn't give a rat's ass about religion unless they can pin something on religion...Barry © wrote: Why are they attacking us in the first place? this is the question we need to ask.Because your Prime Minister is friends with Bush and therefore you deserve it. Really, I don't know. I wish I did. All I can really add is that I heard on the news this morning that mosques are now getting vandalised in retaliation to the London bombing. The people whose places of religious worship have been damaged are just as innocent as those who were killed, they just happen to have slightly more in common ie. Islam, despite radically different interpretations of it. So the question we need to ask is, are the people who would vandalise mosques as payback really any better than the bombers? |
| Fairy 10.07.2005 06:05 |
OK thanks guys. The "give peace a chance" answer is a wonderful theory we all agree with but unfortunately it's empty in itself and it offers no practical solution. The "get all terrorists" solution is the thing we all wish to happen. It's being followed - yesterday lots of people were arrested in Milan and lots of explosive found - but these criminals are to many to be caught, especially because they are living as good neighbors in our towns, and mixing with the good, innocent people of their races. The dialogue solution is necessary, and it can help but it cannot solve the problem of terrorism because there's actually nobody you can really talk to. Barry is right: why are they attacking us? If they wanted something material like a piece of land, for instance, we could sit down and negotiate, and maybe even give it up for peace's sake. But it's not clear what they want from us. If they want us to convert to Islam, or to give up our way of life, I'm afraid this can't be done. So I don't think there is any alternative to liberation wars for now, no matter how cruel they can be sometimes, which can help restore some sort of democracies in those countries and have some control over the training of terrorists. But this discussion is great and, though we're not world leaders, it can still be useful, I think. I guess it's in the human nature, as Arlene says. I'll end with a commonplace: how beautiful the world would be without war! So much energy, so much money, and so many intelligent brains we could use to fight poverty, find cures for diseases, build infrastructures, and just go out and have fun!!! Sorry, I know this is a commonplace, and a euthopia. Peace and love to all Fairy |
| Fairy 10.07.2005 09:08 |
Barry © wrote: You know what would be good? Getting a few genuine Muslims to infiltrate these fanatical groups and this being reported in our press. Apart from this causing untold damage to them, it would go a long way to ease religious and racial tension.Barry, I totally agree. I think the Muslim community should do more to let us know that they oppose terrorism, and that it has very little or nothing to do with the principles of Islam. I don't see much reaction among them though. They should rally on the street against these attacks, at least in the Western countries where rallying is safe. We can't demand that they put up demonstrations in Islamic countries with regimes, though that would be the absolute best to ease tension and above all to isolate the terrorists. The only thing that can stop them is complete isolation. This is a sort of cultural revolution that unfortunately the Muslims have to undertake within themselves. Fairy |
| Bob The Shrek 10.07.2005 11:11 |
Pressure has to be put on the Islamic clerics to denounce the suicide bombers, that they are not martyrs to the cause (and guaranteed a place in heaven or wherever they go) but ordinary criminals. Until this happens I can't see it ever stopping. I can't speak for other nations but the UK should deport people like Abu Hamza. He preaches hate against this country and as far as I am concerned that is treason. |
| Hitman 10.07.2005 13:11 |
Fairyis speeches are always short but they reach the target... i can't givre a precise order to my thoughts...but here you'll have some ideas I think the reality is much more complicated than it seems: i think the existence of terrorists has its roots in the past. the interests about some specific limited resources (and the greed of some nation-people) has created a deep hate. this is happening each day... Religion is just a mask for them to attack, i think the leaders of terrorism just make their "soldier" blind and some misread pages of islam are their starting point. i'd also add that West nations tried to protect their interests in the past giving money to enemies of other west nations...i think this past sceneries are showing now a boomerang effect. The west countries are too busy in caring about their economy and a huge number of not necessary at all stuff (my mp3 reader is the perfect example...) Our economy is based for a good percentage in not necessary goods and the crisis is growing. The military costs are high, maybe if we spent this amount of money to help poor countries (in a reasonable way) we could set them free from hunger and set us free from terrorism. One of the largest resources of terrorism and one of the biggest problem of the world is DRUG; here we need to think a lot about. some suggesitons: West nations consuming drugs...it makes me think we have everything, so we (not me) use drugs to have something "more"...they get money from giving us heroine (in afghanistan this is the only way to make money)...uhm...if the request of drug was close to zero they could not have money from that. It's ridicoulous the attempt to export democracy in countries where people does not know what is democracy....it would be less expensive to export there the knowledge. |
| dragonzflame 10.07.2005 19:02 |
<font color=#FF399> Linda Of The Valley wrote:No, no, you've got it all wrong! I don't think that at all, it's so hard to convey sarcasm on a message board. Please don't think I meant that, I was just as upset about the bombing as everyone else, having family and friends in London who could easily have become victims.dragonzflame wrote: Because your Prime Minister is friends with Bush and therefore you deserve it.That is so arrogant. Ordinary Londoners deserved to be killed because of this? I don't think so. It was a sarcastic and stupid answer to Barry's question, is all, intended to reflect the stupidity of all the carnage. |
| Music Man 10.07.2005 19:22 |
dragonzflame wrote: So the question we need to ask is, are the people who would vandalise mosques as payback really any better than the bombers?That's a pretty easy question to answer, and the answer is "yes, a thousandfold." I'm not saying that their actions were in any way acceptable, I'm just saying that 'bombing' and 'vandalization' are not exactly right next to each other on the "bad things to do" scale. |
| dragonzflame 11.07.2005 05:57 |
No, but aren't they still stooping to a similar level? The bombings were designed to cause hurt and misery to people, just as vandalising mosques is. Dishonouring one's religious faith and desecrating their place of worship is one of the most (read: not THE most) cruel things one human can do to another. I'm not trying to weigh the acts themselves - of course killing people is the lowest of the low - but both groups are still trying to cause massive hurt to people for perceived misdemeanours outside their control. While the acts themselves may not have as much impact on as many lives as the other, I still maintain that the ignorant, spiteful people who would actually choose to take either course of action are as bad as each other and really need to take a long, hard look at themselves. |
| Fairy 11.07.2005 06:22 |
HI HITMAN!!! Do you really think my posts are short? I was afraid they were too long! Anyway, I disagree on some pointts you made :-(. First of all, I don't agree that we should give up our comforts to avoid terrorism or to help foreign countries. It is not by giving up our wealth, our mp3 players etc. that we can help anyone. I believe in equality, but not in the "all equally poor" motto of the Communists, but in the "all rich" motto! So if my life is easier by having an mp3 player, a cell phone, a TV...I don't see why I should feel guilty for it. The truth is that it's not by giving money to these countries that they will be helped. You certainly know that often Western commodities sent to these countries are stopped at the border because criminals won't let the goods in. Also erasing public debt, which sounds like a wonderful thing to do, will not help the poor people, but will only help the brutal leaders of those nations to become even richer at the expense of their people. We have our flaws, of course. But I think the concept of being wealthy is being distorted in the West, and especially in Italy, where being rich is sometimes equated to being a thief. I'm not poor, and I'm happy about that. I'm not ashamed to say that my parents were able to put aside some money thanks to their hard work. They too rose from poverty, as everybody in Italy did after world war II. In Italy after the war our parents didn't sit there and cry. And they didn't send terrorists to the richer countries in the 1950ths either! We took some financial help (mind you, especially from the United States which so many criticize!)and made the most of it. If we must take some responsibility for the terrible situation of world politics today, so must the countries which generate terrorists. And I think that if our responsibility is = 1, theirs is at least 100. You can't always blame it on the others. You can't only expect help from others. that is what a beggard does. I will never feel ashamed because I was able to make my life easier. So shouldn't you. Enjoy your mp3 player! It would do no good to the poor if you throw it away. They don't need charity. They need to learn how to cope for themselves. But the will to learn should be theirs. Well, sorry, this wasn't that short!!! LOL Ciao bello! Fairy |
| Fenderek 11.07.2005 07:14 |
Bob The Shrek wrote: Pressure has to be put on the Islamic clerics to denounce the suicide bombers, that they are not martyrs to the cause (and guaranteed a place in heaven or wherever they go) but ordinary criminals. Until this happens I can't see it ever stopping. I can't speak for other nations but the UK should deport people like Abu Hamza. He preaches hate against this country and as far as I am concerned that is treason.Ditto- the whole thing with Abu Hamza is just pathetic. The guy should be either deported or simply in jail. There should be a pressure on Muslims to state clearly that the bombings are just a crime- not a saint war. If someone is saying it's good- deport straight away... As well- we need to know more about Islam. Not the dark side of it (wars, suicide attacks and so on) but the good one. What does the Koran really say? What are they values? Not from extremists, but from normal people just like me and you. I know few Muslim people (few from Turkey, few from Afganistan) and what they're telling me about their faith has nothing to do with what Bin Laden and others are claiming... We should educate ppl and make them understand that it's not the certain religion that is the problem but few idiots and fanatics... What we DON'T need is "eye for an eye" thing. This way we're gonna have more bombs not only in London, but also in Paris, Rome, Warsaw, Amsterdam, Los Angeles... take your pick... We cannot negotiate with people like Bin Laden and few others. But we CAN make sure their message and their leadership has less followers. We need to show the good values of the Western civilization- so far we're showing NOTHING about love, compassion... What we're showing is ignorance (what do we know about Islam?) and extreme arogance, claiming that only our values are right, only our way of living is good... Don't we know it from the history? How were we converting Indians in America? How did we show them OUR way of living...? Inquisitions? Crusades? We know the history... Or did we forget it? Don't we fight saint wars as well...? Aren't we sometimes almost as arrogant as Bin Laden? It's so obvious that when you force your views onto someone what you gonna get is a negative reaction. It's only a simple human reaction... But no- we are christians, we live in democracy, everything we do and represent is perfect and everybody else in the world MUST live the same way... I'm not against the Western values- I want to make it clear! But what the Western World is showing CONSTANTLY is extreme arrogance. Mr Bush is the best example of that... There's nothing worse than Christian extremist- as dangerous as Muslim one... Is anyone surprised that so many nations almost hate America...? I'm not. I'm not saying it's right. But IT IS the fact and... I understand it. Great Britain? Recently almost as arrogant... Of course we won't change our way of living and convert to Islam! (however- is our way of living that perfect? is capitalism so great? don't think so...). But the same way we cannot force the world to live OUR way. And with all the globalisation, trade and stuff- that's what we do...!!! We defend our way of living by invading the entire world- not only countries and people but also the nature. We'll pay the huge price. Bigger than we think. IMO this race (human race) is doomed- sooner or later. We've got unbeliavable self-destructive instinct. We don't respect anything else (nature, other people). We're arrogant... And this arrogance of the Western economies meets the extremist reaction... Did that make sense...? |
| agneepath! 11994 11.07.2005 07:34 |
you can't deport people who are British citizens... Trust me - Muslims are horrified by the bombings. The clerics in the mosques are condemning acts of terrorism. I agree with the point that Muslims should be seen to be condemning all acts of terrorism. But if you read the local press in cities with a substantial Muslim population - they are doing just that. |
| Fenderek 11.07.2005 08:00 |
Agneepath! wrote: you can't deport people who are British citizens...Jail than... If you're terrorist or sympathise with them- surely there's away of dealing with it... (am not a lawyer though...) Agneepath! wrote: Trust me - Muslims are horrified by the bombings. The clerics in the mosques are condemning acts of terrorism. I agree with the point that Muslims should be seen to be condemning all acts of terrorism. But if you read the local press in cities with a substantial Muslim population - they are doing just that.But that should be highlighted!!! No- the tabloids are more interested in showing the extremists, in presenting sensational and horryfing stories rather than dull things like a Muslim priest condemning a bombing... So there's a responsibility there! And on emore thing- who the fuck reads this "Sun" / "Daily Mirror" etc crap anyway? British public... There you go- we WANT this stuff, we DON'T want to know the good stuff, we wanna read about scandals, terror, terrible things... As you say- in local press thay maybe write about that. But it's not enough. We should make sure it's really loud- the Muslims saying loud and clear that it's nothing but sick crime. What we hear loud and clear are only the words of extremists... You say they're doing just that in the areas witha substantial Muslim population (showing Muslims condemning terrorism)- I say they should do it in the areas where there are no Muslims!!! They know themselves that they don't agree with extremist. It's the British, Polish, American, Italain (whatever) ppl who don't know this! |
| Fairy 11.07.2005 10:38 |
Fenderek, I really can't see why we should be labeled arrogant. Nobody wants them to live like we live. All we want is for them to let us be. If they attack us, we must react. Not as a form of retaliation as in the eye to eye principle, but as a way to prevent more attacks. I totally agree with you that the Islamic world should be more explicit in their condemnation of terrorism. I know they condemn it. My ex boyfriend is Muslim and I know he despises these extremists just like we do. But I never see public demonstrations of Muslims led by their Imams on the streets of our nations, which thank God are free and allow you to demonstrate... Globalization? I think that without globalization, the poor countries would be much much poorer. And again, nobody is forcing anyone to take part in globalization. The fact is, without it they would be much worse off. I think it's our too critical view of ourselves which is working against us. I don't care if we were evil in the past. Christianity has apologized already. Right now we are the victims. BTW I'm not Christian. I don't belong to any religion. |
| Fenderek 11.07.2005 11:31 |
Fairy wrote: Fenderek, I really can't see why we should be labeled arrogant. Nobody wants them to live like we live.The way we treat this planet- isn't this arrogance? Beautiful land (planet) is being turned into a shithole (pardon my French). And the ppl and countries? The trade laws actually dictate the way of living, the policy of all the countries. Rich countries are pretty much deciding everything- the way the whole thing evolves. The capitalism is unavoidable- if you decide to live outside US hegemony- pretty much you decide to live outside Western world in general. And let's face it- western companies aren't going to poor countries to help them- they go there because they can use the fact taht those countries are poor, the ppl who are going to work there are going to be the cheap workforce, there are very often no unions, as an owner you can do almost anything you want. So we keep robbing the rest of the world as much as we can. Live 8 was a beautiful thing, G8 decission made a promise but let's face it- we were (are?) robbing the world of its resources and by economy we enforce certain way of living as well. Of course there are positives. But there's a lot of bad. And almost every second word of certain Mr Bush shows arrogance. By our leaders we're sending very intimidatimg message to the rest of the world- our values are the only ones to follow, that's the only way forward, etc. And EVEN if it's true- that's not the way to do it. I'm not labeling you or me or anyone in particular as arrogant- but Western civilization has the arrogant flavour. Saying taht I notce many other things. Of course the fault is on both sides! It's pretty much the same with racism. I's not right to talk about this problem in UK, but in my view- they have a huge problem in here! I live in a very black area (Camberwell) and am very often intimidated for being white. And I'm sure that both sides are to blame- white for maaany years of terrible treament, but also black- for being extremely proud and not willing to let go... And we once again meet the same thing "eye for an eye". That's where the problem lies. UNFORTUNATELY- I don't believe mankind is able to solve it. We're to proud and too arrogant. I was saying about west being arrogant. But I forgot to mention the fact that it's the same on the other side. Pride and arrogance. And because of taht- I doubt we'll ever be able to sit down and just talk... We'll want to pay back- at some point we'll even forget who really started it... |
| Mr.Jingles 11.07.2005 11:39 |
Bush is an extremist, without a doubt. Just look at all the people he has appointed for ofiice, they're all extremists. Now he wants a man who has publicly mentioned despising the United Nations and labelling them as a completely useless institution, as U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS! |
| Fenderek 11.07.2005 11:44 |
Fairy wrote: I think it's our too critical view of ourselves which is working against us.I disagree. Maybe me, you, hundreds of ppl around the world- maybe? But in general- IMO we've got as many fundamentalists in between us (UK, Poland, Italy) as in Iraq or Afghanistan... Just look at the whole fasist movement in Italy (what's wrong with certain Lazio fans...?) Or the christian extremists in southern USA... Or Catholic extremists in Poland (the guy who's fav to be elected for president is one of the biggest assholes I've ever heard and seen). Those ppl do you think are critical about our way of living? And who is chosing them to run our countries or at least- why do we make their voices so loud... Just because they talk bollocks and it's something that will sell? Fairy wrote: I don't care if we were evil in the past. Christianity has apologized already. Right now we are the victims.Agreed- we are victims. But... it's not only about us being evil in the past... We're not angels right now, sorry, I don't believe that. In my view the capitalism can be really brutal and cynical... AND I'm sure we're unable to talk. Exactly the same way the other side isn't... I don't think we're in general only an innocent victims. The ppl who died in London- yes! The ppl who died on 9/11- yes! Those were really innocent victims. But... same way many ppl died in Iraq or Afghanistan- they didn't belong to Al Quaida (or whatever's the spelling), they weren't terrorists... Or in Vietnam before... I'm, not trying to say taht we're only to blame! OF COURSE NOT!!! But we too often refuse to take the responsibility! And if you look at the latest history of USA (let's say last 50 years)- are you surprised that this country is being widely hated? I'm not... And America is too big and too proud to admit any mistakes... |
| Fenderek 11.07.2005 11:47 |
One more thing in the nutshell- I wasn't albeling only a Western world witha word arrogant- I meant the entire humankind. History repeats itself over and over again... We do exactly the same mistakes the same way. |
| Mr.Jingles 11.07.2005 11:52 |
Fenderek wrote: And if you look at the latest history of USA (let's say last 50 years)- are you surprised that this country is being widely hated? I'm not... And America is too big and too proud to admit any mistakes...I totally agree with this one. Although I'd put most of the blame not on the U.S. and their citizens, but on American politicians (particularly Republicans). When has the U.S. government officially apologized for the 58,000 American soldiers who were lost in Vietnam and who died for NOTHING? If they are so damn arrogant as to not apologize to their own people, much less to the rest of the world. |
| Haystacks Calhoun 11.07.2005 15:47 |
What a shame that some folks on this planet have their heads so far up their asses....... You know who you are. How many barrels of Oil has the US taken out of Iraq, exactly? Can you give us an accurate count, Alex? Yes, that would be not the first drop....... |
| Fairy 11.07.2005 15:47 |
Fenderek, I agree with you on many things, about the arrogance and pride on all sides that repeats itself again and again, and about the difficulty in solving it. But I would like you to tell me now what you suggest we do, if capitalism is so bad as you say. Like I said in another post, I'm not going to let anyone make me feel ashamed just because I'm not poor. This is the theory behind Communism, which wants everybody to be poor, so that then the leaders can have total control. Before the war in Afghanistan, in this country the internet was forbitten, along with any radio or TV stations that were not run by the government. Women couldn't leave their homes alone, and couldn't work. Women couldn't be seen by male doctors, and women were forbidden to study, so basically women were left without medical care. Certainly you know all this. Now, all this has totally changed. If this means forcing our values upon others, well, then be it! Western companies don't go there to do charity. Nobody says Western people are saints. They follow their own interests. But until we don't understand that charity is the least these countries need, we will never go anywhere, and we won't understand that capitalism is not the enemy of the third world. The third world has its enemy within itself. |
| Fenderek 12.07.2005 04:29 |
Fairy- I also think I actually agree with you a lot. I said many abd things about capitalism, but... It's like democracy- everybody knows it's not a perfect system, but no-one can think of a better one... THERE'S NO SHAME IN BEING RICH!!! Not at all! No-one should feel guilty if earned money or inherited them from their parents or whatever. Unless stolen (REALLY STOLEN)- that's fine! I'm definitelly not one of those who claim that you should be ashemed of yourmoney because kids in Africa are dying every 3 seconds. Communist view was a nice idea IN THE BEGINING- in fact the perfect communism is pretty much what heaven is about, isn't it? We're all equally RICH. Of course, when it's down to people (our great human race)- it's of course equally poor... "Before the war in Afghanistan, in this country the internet was forbitten, along with any radio or TV stations that were not run by the government. Women couldn't leave their homes alone, and couldn't work. Women couldn't be seen by male doctors, and women were forbidden to study, so basically women were left without medical care. Certainly you know all this. Now, all this has totally changed. If this means forcing our values upon others, well, then be it!" I will agree with that, BUT- the attack itself was about what? Revenge... And many people do know that and will remeber. Many people are now free, can use internet and lost their son or their house, because some american pilot bombed the wrong building. I'm sure they're greatful (I must stress one thing- I'm not mocking your view here, just trying to see why ppl there still often hate USA) Mostly- I agree with your thought that the Third World is an enemy in itself. It is. But we aren't helping them either... And you're right, it's not the charity what they need. But equal treatment would do the trick I don't know- when writing answers to this thread I just became more and more pesymistic... It's a huge tangle- impossible to sort out as both sides want more and are proud and... Now Africa being poor.. I can actually see it happening either way- Europe being poor and Africa rich... Would it be different? Nope. The actions would be exactly the same. Looking at the history (had to study it a lot) it's all about greed and pride. And nothing changed since the begining of time... Empathy? Empty word... It's also weird how single ppl can see the world in terrible state (and always did), but when in group, as a mass- humankind becomes blind... |
| Fairy 12.07.2005 11:49 |
Fenderek, as it happened on many other threads in the past, after some discussion you and I always find we have very similar views! LOL I agree with everything you said in your last post, and just like you, the more I talk about it the more pessimistic I become. We see problems and flaws in the world but we can’t seem to find a solution. Should we accept with resignation that humankind will never change and that greed and violence are inherent properties of our nature?? I hate this!!! But probably it is so. But I guess I will never stop hoping for a better future against all odds... :-) Let’s try to be cheerful! Fairy |
| doremi 12.07.2005 11:52 |
Fairy wrote: Fenderek, as it happened on many other threads in the past, after some discussion you and I always find we have very similar views! LOL I agree with everything you said in your last post, and just like you, the more I talk about it the more pessimistic I become. We see problems and flaws in the world but we can’t seem to find a solution. Should we accept with resignation that humankind will never change and that greed and violence are inherent properties of our nature?? I hate this!!! But probably it is so. But I guess I will never stop hoping for a better future against all odds... :-) Let’s try to be cheerful! FairyFairy...please read my article on my blog from yesterday 7/11/2005..thoroughly. It addresses exactly what Brian went off about and what you and we on QZ are discussing here. It's the most recent article with the title being about Geldof and Bono at the G8 Summit..... ...But it's a political and economic analysis of what we should and should not do, in how it affects people's and other cultures views of us western nations, right..or wrong. It's just my opinions and views. I can't think of any other answers. Please read it. link |
| Fenderek 12.07.2005 12:21 |
Fairy wrote: Fenderek, as it happened on many other threads in the past, after some discussion you and I always find we have very similar views!It makes me think... Usually it starts with two people saying something. One of them disagrees and states their view. The fact is- very often their view is almost exactly the smae yet they used different words and put the emphasis on different issues. There are two ways- 1. to continue explaining (what happened here- I made a statement and than in the course of conversation was stretched to explain fully what exatcly I was about) 2. To go into seperate sides and fight about... nothing... SOMEHOW I sse the second one everywhere I look. Politics, life... even this board... People, who actually agree with the main point are arguing about not important details... Just like religions- give a god different name and you have (or had for many centuries) a war... |
| Fairy 15.07.2005 05:19 |
Fenderek wrote: There are two ways- 1. to continue explaining (what happened here- I made a statement and than in the course of conversation was stretched to explain fully what exatcly I was about) 2. To go into seperate sides and fight about... nothing... SOMEHOW I sse the second one everywhere I look. Politics, life... even this board... People, who actually agree with the main point are arguing about not important details... Just like religions- give a god different name and you have (or had for many centuries) a war...So true! Probably we could avoid 90% of all the fights if we applied the first one! Thanks Arlene I'll read your article. Sorry, I just checked the forum after a few days. Fairy |
| kingogre 17.07.2005 17:21 |
We have a right to protect ourselves and we must do it. We also must find the people that are guilty and put them on trial. But to get rid of terrorism in the long-term we have to understand why it happens and fight those causes. There will always be idiots and psycopaths, there is nothing we can do about that. However, what we can do is that we can understand what it is that makes normal people like you and me turn to them. What makes normal people partake in acts of terrorism and violence, perhaps even blow themselves to pieces. Normal people do these things under the influence of others. If you look at places were terrorism and guerrilla-groups are common these are places that are very poor, war-ridden and insecure. people who live in such areas are desperate and if someone says to them that they can cahnge this or that it is someone elses fault they will listen to them. If these people were not hungry, scared, desperate or angry for revenge for relatives or friends that have been killed earlier they probably wouldnt listen to what the bad "leaders" say to them. IMO the best thing we can do to fight terrorism on a long-term basis is to fight poverty, hunger and conflicts. |
| KEVPAR 29.07.2005 06:55 |
its not wrong, its just being done in the wrong gung ho way...which REAAAAALLY doesn help sometimes :( Kev x |
| *goodco* 29.07.2005 07:01 |
The war is over!!!!! If you don't watch 'The Daily Show', you wouldn't know that. Start celebrating in the streets. The war is over. oh, btw, it is now known as 'the struggle against extremism'. (quoting Rumsfield) |
| KEVPAR 29.07.2005 07:03 |
lol seriously??! lol that is rather amusing hehe Kev x |
| Sonia Doris 29.07.2005 11:56 |
People, I do have to agree to give peace a chance, but in the present situation, and with the present "masters of war" still in power, that would be slightly impossible... I don't know what we're supposed to do, I just want to say that since men (I don't wanna be sexist here...) have moved the balance of power to their (almost) absolute interest, wars keep coming and coming, and there is always a conflict (weather small or big - born from a former small conflict)... The only thing I want to say, is that if the society finds a way to secure balance (and not only between men and women, but with everything that has to do with personal and public life), there will be no chance for peace. The way we all want to go to extremes takes us to extreme measures as wars or natural killers (floods, weird weather, etc.), and realise that when we piss Mother Nature, she will strike back 100000 times worse (or even more). With action comes reaction. We have to learn to take responsibility of the action and think what it might bring to our children and our children's children... The End. kiss kiss, Sonia |