QueenZone discussion #455303
Roger Taylors best songwriting on Innuendo?
| My Best Friend 09.01.2005 15:20 |
I think so. Songs like Innuendo. I remember when in came out. Casual Queen fans thought it was so cool. These are the Days of Our Lives? So bloody good. Ride the Wild Wind? Its the name of a Poison song too but this was a great direction for Queen. Innuendo was a great Requiem for Freddie. He got to say goodbye. This is one of the things that makes Queen so special and adds to the mystique. |
| Queen& 09.01.2005 15:30 |
well said he's a great songwriter |
| My Best Friend 09.01.2005 15:40 |
Roger should never be underestimated. RadioGaga spawned the hand in the air clap and that awesome video. Here in the USA, it was always on the radio despite people saying Americans didn't like the gay image or the I Want to Break Free video. Nobody I know thinks of those things about Queen. When I play them the Greatest Hits, they always are surprised that "THATS QUEEN"? "I DIDN'T KNOW THAT"! They always thought CLTCL was Elvis is another one. Queen had to change in the 80's to gain new fans. Alot of succesful bands that are still around did that. Elton, Metallica, Rod Stewart, you name it. Freddie was always able to reinvent himself. The clothing, the hairstyles, the image of the band, .If they would of kept their long hair, thet would of just looked like a bunch of old men has beens. Roll with the tides baby. |
| Serry... 09.01.2005 16:30 |
This one is specially for you: http://sebastian.queenconcerts.com/innuendo.html Thanks to Sebastian for info! |
| AC 09.01.2005 16:34 |
And for those who didn't follow the link provided by Serry Funster: Innuendo was written by FREDDIE. Not Roger. Simple and true. |
| My Best Friend 09.01.2005 16:47 |
You are wrong. Innuendo was Rogers idea. Wait til somebody comes along here with the right information. |
| Serry... 09.01.2005 16:48 |
Who? Roger? |
| Sebastian 09.01.2005 16:54 |
Innuendo, lyrically, is more Roger (although Fred started it). But the music is Freddie. Still Innuendo (the album) is indeed Roger's best songwriting period imo: Days Of Our Lives & Ride The Wild Wind. |
| Serry... 09.01.2005 16:57 |
Sebastian wrote: Innuendo, lyrically, is more Roger (although Fred started it). But the music is Freddie. Still Innuendo (the album) is indeed Roger's best songwriting period imo: Days Of Our Lives & Ride The Wild Wind.And two amazing songs for 'Blue Rock' - 'The Also Rans' and 'New Dark Ages'! |
| newcastle 86! 16483 09.01.2005 19:16 |
yeah innuendo saw some real good roger lyrics his attention to detail lyric wise is so good and his singing is second to none still love loser in the end................ ahead of its time |
| AC 10.01.2005 04:15 |
My Best Friend wrote: You are wrong. Innuendo was Rogers idea. Wait til somebody comes along here with the right information.I think that you're wrong and that Innuendo was Freddie idea (he was then helped by Roger with the lyrics, but it still remain his song). And by the way, who should come here with the right information? |
| Sebastian 10.01.2005 04:58 |
The drumming is part of the arrangement, not the songwriting. In the same way, for instance, the guitar melody of Modern Times RnR is sooo Brian, but the song is still Roger's, Brian is a(co-)arranger there. The music of Innuendo (i.e. the keys, the structure, the chord progressions and the melody) is Freddie's, the lyrics are Roger's (Fred started off, but Roger did most of the job there) |
| Another Roger (re) 10.01.2005 05:28 |
I believe Roger made most of the song. Freddie did the middle section "you can be anything you want to be....." But the rest was Roger. |
| AC 10.01.2005 05:46 |
Just because Roger arranged the drumming, it doesn't mean he wrote the song. He probably did it for many other Queen songs, but that doesn't mean he co-wrote all of them! Innuendo is a song by Freddie because he created it and wrote it. Roger arranged the drumming and helped him with the lyrics (a lot, ok, but what about Radio GaGa then?) but that doesn't make him the songwriter. |
| trustno1 10.01.2005 05:58 |
I always thought it was odd that Roger should suddenly come out with a song so brilliant as Innuendo. When I read it was Freddie I thought: I f**king knew it! Far too complicated and inspired for Roger to come up with. Though I love Breakthru and Day of Our Lives is beautiful. |
| Sebastian 10.01.2005 06:37 |
Indeed DOOL is brill. |
| Peta 10.01.2005 07:03 |
Innuendo song is really great!! It´s one of my most favourite songs! I think Freddie was her writer. |
| Another Roger (re) 05.05.2006 14:50 |
I still think this is mainly a Roger Taylor song. The middle section is Freddie, verses and basic idea Roger Taylor. |
| Scott_Mercury 05.05.2006 16:32 |
I'd love to ramble on about this...but short and sweet: 1) Jim Hutton and Freestone have both commented "Freddie working hard on a song he called his Bo Rhap of the 90's" ....later to be named Innuendo. 2) Brian has said in interview, Guitar FTPM, MAY 1993..."we got Steve Howe from Yes to play on one of Freddie's tracks, Innuendo." 3) Steve Howe said in Guitar Player, July 1996 "Freddie Mercury was very professional, he had the spanish guitar part worked out on piano that he wanted me to play." COMBINE THIS WITH THE FACT THAT THE MUSIC ON INNUENDO IS SIMPLY OUT OF ROGER'S LEAGUE... And you have a Freddie song. |
| Winter Land Man 05.05.2006 18:23 |
Just cause something has a bunch of drums doesn't mean it's a Roger song. Princes has TONS of guitar, did Brian write it? Definetely not... Freddie did. |
| Fiendishly Yours 05.05.2006 18:42 |
I guess it wouldn't hurt to throw my random facts into the mix... Take it or leave it, but I've always heard that the general sound for Innuendo came from a jam session the band was having. Freddie walked in/listened to said session and liked it so much that he wanted to make an actual song out of it. (Somewhere in the vast expanses of the Internet, I read an actual quote in which FM admits this. I know not having it probably takes down the credibility of this post but... why would I lie?) Anyways, Freddie set to work on the lyrics, with or without the help of the others I'm not sure, and the unfinished portions were eventually patched together by Roger. This is what I pieced together from various sources-- feel free to correct me. :) |
| AC 06.05.2006 05:31 |
Another Roger (re) wrote: verses and basic idea Roger Taylor.No, that's not true. It was Freddie's idea. Freddie said it was his song, why don't believe him? |
| Another Roger (re) 06.05.2006 05:37 |
AC wrote:Source? Let me guess, you dont have a source.Another Roger (re) wrote: verses and basic idea Roger Taylor.No, that's not true. It was Freddie's idea. Freddie said it was his song, why don't believe him? |
| [ Wybren™ ] 06.05.2006 07:17 |
Sebastian wrote: Ok, let's omit the orchestral section in 3/4. It still isn't Roger-esque at all, the keys, the time signatures... Roger's most comlpicated effort in terms of meters is Rock It and Innuendo is light years from that. Let's omit the entire middle bit (keyboards, vocals and Steve's guitar playing). Still, the song is not Roger-esque, the way the choruses are expanded in a completely un-Roger and suspiciously very Freddie-esque way (compare them with Bicycle or Killer Queen, to name just two). Ok, let's pretend Roger wrote it and Freddie was in charge of the structure (as happened with Ga Ga and Magic and still those were Roger's songs). Does it make sense now? no For a start, there are a lot of slash chords (e.g. F/E), something Roger didn't apply even once in his vast songwriting catalogue (which includes two bands and four solo albums), and coincidentially Fred used A LOT in those days (Miracle, Slightly Mad, the Barcelona project...). Ok, let's say Roger wrote the chords and Fred put the inversions. Does it make sense? No. Innuendo's verses last half in one key, then shift up. Is it a Roger-esque detail? No. It doesn't exclude it though. He did use that in Action This Day, in the same way John used it for Misfire, Freddie in Funny How Love Is, Brian in Keep yourself Alive, just to name one example of each one (there are several more). The Dorian mode was used by Roger in Modern Times RnR (I think), as well as the Mixolydian was used in Coming Soon. BUT, there are plenty of examples from Freddie for both modes as well: Miracle, Soul Brother, Crazy Little Thing, Keep Passing The Open Windows... in fact it's common for both to use them. The difference is that Roger never used both in the same song. And those aren't the only keys in there. All chords are major in the "main" section, there are no inversions if we ignore the slash detail I mentioned above. So let's pretend we only have the chords major and without any alteration whatsoever. We would get a set of just major ones. We usually tend to relate that to Roger (e.g. Coming Soon), but there are examples from both John (Misfire) and Freddie (Crazy Little Thing) too. From the top off my head I don't remember any song from Brian with that but there must be. The melody is at least twice as long as in any track from Roger including what he wrote for Queen, Cross and his solo career. How could he come up with that overnight? A lepprechaun, or a fairy, gave him magic powers? If so, then the lepprechaun (or the fairy) is the composer, not Roger. Last but not least, don't you think the track has a little too many keys for being written by a person who admittedly hated modulations? (source: GVHII audio commentary, Breakthru part)Great to read Sebastian! After reading this, how can anyone still think that Innuendo was actually written by Roger? :-S. I always thought it was a Freddie song though;) |
| Sebastian 06.05.2006 10:52 |
In order to complement what I said half a year ago: - "Through the sorrow" is a variant of the verse, using the same chords (E and F) albeit organised a little bit differently. That's the same Fred did with Bo Rhap ("easy come easy go" appearing in intro and opera bit but in different tempo). - Three new sections in the middle part, never appearing later in the song, just like Don't Try So Hard - Verses are the core of the song, being present in almost every cycle, sometimes as variants of themselves (the last part of the solos are a verse variant in 6/8), just like Delilah or All God's People - F/E and A/G# dissonances, similarly to The Miracle - Note the pitch-set in the verses: E F G# A B C D (i.e. E Phyrigian Dominant or E Hijaz). Hijaz mode had been used by Fred on Mustapha, Black Queen and Flick Of The Wrist but never by Roger. - E>G# modulation (verse) is a I>III double-step key change, found before in Seven Seas Of Rhye and Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy. No examples by Roger as far as I know although there's one by Brian: Back To The Light. - Examples of Queen songs using Dorian mode: Liar, Masterstroke, Loser In The End, Tie Your Mother Down, Crazy Little Thing, Dragon Attack, Under Pressure, Tear It Up, Friends Will Be Friends, Princes Of The Universe. Conclusion: not a clear trademark from anyone of them. - Unresolved endings is sort of Freddie's fingerprint: Champions, Lap ... Revisited, My Fairy King. Especially My Fairy King ends in the II function, just like Innuendo (different modes though). - Note how the break (the acoustic arpeggios before "through the sorrow") is made up a progression of chromatic steps with a pedal point. Same technique was used by Freddie in other songs like Death On Two Legs, In The Lap Of The Gods and Seaside Rendezvous intros, and the slow-down bit in My Fairy King, as well as some contemporary efforts (Slightly Mad). - Use of 'iv' chord in major keys is non-Rogeresque: Bo Rhap, Killer Queen, Now I'm Here, You're My Best Friend, Love Of My Life, Good Company, Long Away, You And I, Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy, Save Me, Play The Game, Barcelona, How Can I Go On, Guide Me Home, Made In Heaven, There Must Be More To Life Than This, Another World. Used by John, Brian and Fred several times but never by Roger. - Flamenco progression variants appear in Green, Liar, Great King Rat, Jesus, It's A Hard Life, Barcelona, The Fallen Priest, Was It All Worth It. Not a single song by the others featuring such thing. - Solo modulates from Am to E (i>V), something that indeed was used by both: Black Quen, Tenement Funster, Bicycle, Pressure On. To be fair this one's a Roger-esque detail just as much as Freddie-esque. - The pre-solo includes a Cm7+ chord, while the key is C (Harmonic) Major. The use of the "i" function in major keys is reminiscent of Lazing On A Sunday Afternoon, Staying Power, Bicycle, My Melancholy Blues, Lap Of The Gods and Barcelona. Guess who wrote all of them... - Bridge includes G# in the key of C Major (#V function), reminiscent of Seven Seas, Bohemian Rhapsody, Crazy Little Thing Called Love, Play The Game, Seaside Rendezvous, Staying Power, There Must Be More. There are some examples by the others anyway: Coming Soon, Is This The World We Created, Thank God It's Christmas, Don't Lose Your Head, Gimme The Prize, Good Company. - G#dim7 in A Minor (#viidim), as in You Take My Breath Away, How Can I Go On and All God's People. - A# in C# (V of ii), like in Good Old Fashioned Lover Boy, Killer Queen, Lazing On A Sunday Afternoon, Princes Of The Universe, Seaside Rendezvous All in all, the song's got 17 chords (not counting inversions) involving 11 different chromatic pitches as roots: only Eb was missing (unless we count one of the passing chords of the solo as Eb5- ommitting 3rd). All of Roger's songs (counting over fifteen albums with Queen plus three albums with another band and |
| AC 06.05.2006 11:22 |
Another Roger (re) wrote:Why don't you read the hole thread? How can you still claim that Roger wrote Innuendo? Just because you'd like it to be that way, you can't change reality, sorry.AC wrote:Source? Let me guess, you dont have a source.Another Roger (re) wrote: verses and basic idea Roger Taylor.No, that's not true. It was Freddie's idea. Freddie said it was his song, why don't believe him? |
| john bodega 06.05.2006 13:22 |
Mr. Roger Meddows Taylor did not make Innuendo what it was all on his lonesome. It was a group effort, but it was really Freddie's child, from all the *exhaustive* evidence, both in the form of songwriting evidence and 2nd hand testimonies. But you know what, let's pretend that he DID write Innuendo. It still wouldn't have been his best song. That gong goes out to... MAN ON FIRE. SOMETIMES I FEEL LIKE A MAN ON FIRE! SOMETIMES I FEEL LIKE A MAN POSSESSED! SOMETIMES I WANNA BURN DOWN THIS CRAZY TOWN... Oh man, I just 80's-icised my hair, went into an abandoned warehouse and started drumming crazily. Long Live the Man on Fire video. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 06.05.2006 13:50 |
Regarding Sebastian's last post above - is he always so brilliantly detailed? Wow. I understood only half of it but... damn! |
| Sebastian 06.05.2006 22:42 |
Thanks. I'm not always that detailed though ... in the case of Innuendo I've got to be since it's the one going on forever. I've never tried to put together that amount of proofs for a song like Slightly Mad or Miracle since they're both well-accepted already as Freddie's. |
| mike hunt 07.05.2006 00:20 |
the fact is Innuendo was a freddie song,the music was all freds and the lryrics are freds and rogers. Why is this still an issue?....No way could roger pull off such a masterpiece! |
| Going Back 07.05.2006 03:44 |
if innuendo would've been roger's song he would have sang it in his solo tours too, like he did with ride the wild wind. |
| Serry... 07.05.2006 04:35 |
Going Back wrote: if innuendo would've been roger's song he would have sang it in his solo tours too, like he did with ride the wild wind....and Days of Our Lives |
| rocks. 07.05.2006 07:34 |
My Best Friend wrote: When I play them the Greatest Hits, they always are surprised that "THATS QUEEN"? "I DIDN'T KNOW THAT"! They always thought CLTCL was Elvis is another one.My friends do that ALL THE TIME!! :D Um...im not eeven going to join on the Roger/Freddie arguement! lol, best leave that to people who have more reliable sources than me, but IMO, Freddie's song. |
| deleted user 07.05.2006 07:58 |
Another Roger (re) wrote: I still think this is mainly a Roger Taylor song. The middle section is Freddie, verses and basic idea Roger Taylor.Ok, because you're so stubborn: Roger HATED modulating. 'Innuendo' modulates several times. Freddie modulated extremely often. Which of the two is the most likely author? |
| rocks. 07.05.2006 08:04 |
link Wikipedia generally has correct info! Im on the Freddie wrote Innuendo (for the most part) train |
| Serry... 07.05.2006 08:57 |
WhatMustHeThink wrote: link Wikipedia generally has correct info! Im on the Freddie wrote Innuendo (for the most part) trainWikipedia took info from QZ... the_hero wrote: Why did he sing The show must go on then? Wasn't that Freddie/Brian?/queenzone/580304.html |
| Sebastian 07.05.2006 09:19 |
Actually I wrote that Wikipedia section; and many more, those familiar with my style of writing know which ones :) Roger sang some of his own songs on tours (Tenement Funster, Ride The Wild Wind, Days Of Our Lives) but he sang from the others as well (I Want To Break Free, We Will Rock You, Show Must Go On), so even if he'd have sung Innuendo (or any other post-Magic song for that matter) it wouldn't neccesarily mean he composed it. Same for Brian - he sang Love Of My Life and didn't write it. |
| Daburcor? 07.05.2006 11:04 |
I'm shocked that there are people out there that STILL think Innuendo is a Roger song. Back to the original topic, yes, Roger wrote some great tracks for the Innuendo album! One being tied with The Show Must Go On for my all-time favorite song. Innuendo has been my favorite album for the better part of a decade, and will continue to be as long as I live. :) |
| Farrokh The Great 07.05.2006 17:54 |
Excuse my English I get relax enough to know that there are people which think as always I have thought, Innuendo only could to come from one mind: Freddie's mind Greetings |
| Sebastian 07.05.2006 22:21 |
It's not a matter of thoughts but a matter of facts. Innuendo's music isn't Roger's, full stop. |
| Scott_Mercury 07.05.2006 23:38 |
Sebastian, In your personal opinion... what were the writing strengths and weaknesses of each member in terms of songwriting. Of course any of us that understand music theory are fully aware that Freddie's understanding (whether by knowledge of theory or by a great musical ear, or both) of more complex chord progressions..etc..etc.. exceed the other 3, but of course, more complex doesn't always mean better. But please go as far in depth as time allows you to Thank you very much. |
| mike hunt 08.05.2006 01:54 |
it surprises me that someone who claims their a queen fan actually thinks roger wrote this!...If you know the history of this band, you should know freddie and brian were the kings of the epic song. Roger was more straight forward rock (funster) or pop (magic) also ballad (tatdool) no where does he write songs like MOTBQ or Great king rat, Bo Rhap, Princess of the universe. This should be obvious to any queen fan. |
| Sebastian 08.05.2006 10:22 |
Indeed more complex doesn't neccesarily mean better. Something that never ceases striking me is the ability the four of them had to make great songs (catchy, memorable and deep) by using unusual features. 'I'm In Love With My Car', for instance, a rock song in 3/4, or 'You're My Best Friend', a little ditty with a very clever structure (note how the bridge is expanded the second time), chord inversions (Dm/C, C/Bb, E/G#), non-diatonic functions like V-of-vi, V-of-V, V-of-IV and iv, and God knows how many bloody hours of hard work (a score of vocal overdubs, three bass-channels, bass-overdubs, a guitar choir, two piano channels, drums mixing), and all of that resulting in such an easy-listening 3 minute pop song. Brilliant. 'Keep Yourself Alive' comes to my mind as a very unusual debut single. It's catchy and by far the most repetitive song in the album, yet it includes a lot of clever details: many modulations (some of them quite difficult ones), non-model form, meticulous instrumental arrangement (especially in the intro), layered guitar solo ... but still it sounds so natural and straightforward. There are loads of songwriters who achieve extraordinary tunes with metre-changes and modulations, but somehow they fail to impress the public. The way Freddie got such a complex epic like Bo Rhap to be at the same time a classic is absolutely stunning. Let's check the top-10 selling singles in the UK ever: - Candle In The Wind: Four chords (major diatonic plus relative minor), no modulations. - Do They Know It's Christmas: Seven chords (six diatonic plus bVII), no modulations. - Bohemian Rhapsody: Over thirty chords, heaps of unusual functions, several modulations. - Mull Of Kintyre: Three chords, all major, no modulations. - Rivers Of Babylon: Three chords, all major, no modulations. - You're The One That I Want: Five chords (i, III, V, VI, VII in minor key), no modulations. - Relax: Four chords, no modulations. - She Loves You: Six chords (V-of-V instead of ii, no iii, beautiful iv function), no modulations. - Unchained Melody: Five chords, one of them unusual (bIII), no modulations. - Mary's Boy Child: Seven chords (V-of-vi instead of iii and a secondary dominant on the first part of the chorus), no modulations. It says it all :) Same for songs seelling over two millions in the US (besides the aforementioned Candle In The Wind and Bo Rhap): - Another One Bites The Dust: Ten chords (six diatonic plus ii, IV and the very unusual functions bVII and bv), no modulations. - Hey Jude: Six chords (no iii or vi, plus V-of-V and IV-of-IV), nice V-of-IV function, no modulations (albeit the coda can be interpreted as modal switch towards F Mixolydian). - Hound Dog: Three chords, all major, no modulations. - Don't Be Cruel: Four chords (I, ii, IV, V) and the V-of-IV function. No modulations. - I Will Always Love You: Five chords (no iii), key-shift at the end, - Macarena: I might be wrong but as far as I remember there are only two chords, like in Break On Through. - We Are The World: Eight chords (six diatonic plus bVI and bVII), key-shift at the end. - Everything I Do I Do It For You: Eight chords (I, ii, IV, V plus II, bIII, iv and bVII). No modulations although the bridge can be considered a slight pass to bVII. - Gangsta's Paradise: Two chords I think. - How Do I Live: Six diatonic chords, interesting I>II and I>bVII modulations through VI/V function. Very beautiful piece. - I'll Be Missing You: It's based on Every Breath You Take, which has got seven chords (I, IV, V, vi plus V-of-V, bVI and bVII). No modulations although the bridge can be considered a brief modal switct to Aeolian. No modulations. - Love Me Tender: Seven chords (I, IV, V, vi plus V-of-V, V-of-iii and the beautiful iv). No modulations. - Anyway You Want Me: Five chords (four standard plus V-of-V). No modulations. - Vogue: Four chords (I, ii, IV, V), no modulations. - We Are The |
| LucyCoeCollins 08.05.2006 18:45 |
ride the wild wind is my fave off innunedo! |
| Scott_Mercury 08.05.2006 20:26 |
Athena_Mercury wrote: ride the wild wind is my fave off innunedo!That's one of my least favs on Innuendo....I always skip over it. |
| Going Back 10.05.2006 14:03 |
Innuendo is the only album where i would give every song perfext 10/10 points! |
| inmsthebest 11.05.2006 18:05 |
Scott_Mercury wrote: Sebastian, In your personal opinion... what were the writing strengths and weaknesses of each member in terms of songwriting. Of course any of us that understand music theory are fully aware that Freddie's understanding (whether by knowledge of theory or by a great musical ear, or both) of more complex chord progressions..etc..etc.. exceed the other 3, but of course, more complex doesn't always mean better. But please go as far in depth as time allows you to Thank you very much.Yes, I would also like to see Sebastian's opinions on this: strengths and weaknesses of all four band members in songwriting. |
| Sebastian 12.05.2006 11:28 |
Strengths and weaknesses, briefly: Of course the four of them were extraordinary songwriters. Queen were probably the only band for which all members wrote (separately) at least two #1 hits. Maurice Gibb'd never got sole credit for a #1, although I'm not sure about Ringo: the legend states that Don't Pass Me By was #1 in Poland, but that's most likely an urban legend without any serious support. Freddie's biggest strengths were of course the clever use of non-repetitive (and at the same time catchy) melodies, unpredictable structures and extended harmonic and rhythmic material (albeit there are of course several composers more advanced). His only (debatable) weakness would probably be that he sometimes repeated himself a lot, as in some melodic bits or some chord progressions. Brian was a very meticulous arranger, and what I admire the most about his songwriting is that he's so bloody brilliant emulating styles. If you listen to a song like '39, it's hard to believe he wasn't an experienced and consumated skiffle composer. Or if you listen to Good Company, Teo Torriatte, Dragon Attack or Scandal. Very versatile songwriter. He even imitated Freddie's style perfectly with 'No One But You'. John's song catalogue doesn't even get to a score, sadly, so it's hard to know as deep about his style as it happens with the others, each of which has composed over 50 released songs. Roger was more creative when he wrote at the piano, while at the guitar he was sometimes quite predictable. Not always of course. I think he'd got a great sense of melody and was a wonderful lyricist. If he had wanted to, imo, he could have been one of the best English poets of the century, but that way we'd have missed his voice and his instruments :) All in all, they were all quite different and especially in the Miracle-Innuendo era they were already mature and independent songwriters, which made it easier for me to find specific trademarks and try to conclude who-composed-what. |
| inmsthebest 12.05.2006 17:31 |
Thanks Sebastian. I found really funny that you only found one weakenes in one band member(Freddie) and that it was debatable.:) I don't know why, but I don't seem to enjoy too much the folky side of Brian's so versatile and wonderful songwriting skills. For example: Long away, some day one day, etc. Find it repetitive and boring( it's just my opinion)...can this be due in part to less harmonic changes and less melodic interest or less elaborate arrangements ? What do you think? |
| Sebastian 13.05.2006 10:53 |
I don't think 'Long Away' and the others would be more interesting with more chords. There are many songs catchy enough with even a simpler harmony. Perhaps Brian's weakness in some of those ('She Makes Me', for instance), is the fact that the melody is quite plain (and sometimes chord-driven). Not a problem with chords or arrangement imo. |
| Nightjar_ 13.05.2006 13:24 |
I'm sure I recall Greg Brooks saying that there is a version of Innuendo with Rog on vocal (maybe a guide vocal for Fred) also wasn't Fred writting songs like: Delilah Delilah Delilah Oh my oh my oh my you're irresistible You make me smile when I'm just about to cry You bring me hope you make me laugh - and I like it You get away with murder so innocent But when you throw a moody you're all claws and you bite That's all right Delilah Delilah Oh my oh my oh my you're unpredictable You make me so very happy When you cuddle up and go to sleep beside me And then you make me slightly mad When you pee all over my Chippendale suite Delilah Delilah Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh You take over my house and home You even try to answer my telephone Delilah you're the apple of my eye Meeow meeow meeow Delilah I love you Delilah Oh you make me so very happy You give me kisses and I go out of my mind ooh Meeow meeow meeow You're irresistible - I love you Delilah Delilah I love you Hah hah You make me very happy Oh yeah - I love your kisses I love your kisses I love your kisses I love your kisses I love your your your kisses I love your kisses possibly queen worst moment (with Fred) sorry Fred!!! |
| inmsthebest 14.05.2006 18:57 |
Sebastian wrote: I don't think 'Long Away' and the others would be more interesting with more chords. There are many songs catchy enough with even a simpler harmony. Perhaps Brian's weakness in some of those ('She Makes Me', for instance), is the fact that the melody is quite plain (and sometimes chord-driven). Not a problem with chords or arrangement imo.Thanks, I always wondered why was that, necuase I usually like that style of songwriting in other writers, not in Brian, anyways. Do you think that Fred had in general more melodic genius than Brian? I find his melodies are almost always pretty long and innovative, quite unpredictable sometimes, and I truly love that. Was it Montserrat the one who praised Freddie's melodic skills? |
| Scott_Mercury 14.05.2006 21:29 |
Nightjar_ wrote: I'm sure I recall Greg Brooks saying that there is a version of Innuendo with Rog on vocal (maybe a guide vocal for Fred) also wasn't Fred writting songs like: Delilah Delilah Delilah Oh my oh my oh my you're irresistible You make me smile when I'm just about to cry You bring me hope you make me laugh - and I like it You get away with murder so innocent But when you throw a moody you're all claws and you bite That's all right Delilah Delilah Oh my oh my oh my you're unpredictable You make me so very happy When you cuddle up and go to sleep beside me And then you make me slightly mad When you pee all over my Chippendale suite Delilah Delilah Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh You take over my house and home You even try to answer my telephone Delilah you're the apple of my eye Meeow meeow meeow Delilah I love you Delilah Oh you make me so very happy You give me kisses and I go out of my mind ooh Meeow meeow meeow You're irresistible - I love you Delilah Delilah I love you Hah hah You make me very happy Oh yeah - I love your kisses I love your kisses I love your kisses I love your kisses I love your your your kisses I love your kisses possibly queen worst moment (with Fred) sorry Fred!!!Is it maybe that your profile page says that Roger is your favorite member, and therefore you overlook facts to root for the Queen member you want to be the songs writer?? Facts: * Innuendo is out of Roger's league musically. * Roger's 2 biggest hits of the 1980's would not have became what they were without Freddie taking them over...to the point of where Brian and John both felt Freddie should have taken co-writing credit on Radio Ga Ga and A Kind of Magic. * Freddie was also writing songs like Innuendo, I'm Going Slightly MAd, All Gods People, Hitman, and being that Freddie wrote more of Queen's hits and songs then any of the others, I think it would be dumb to think that he didn't contribute lyrically and musically to the other songs on Innuendo. Lets just presume on the Innuendo that Freddie just wrote and contributed to the songs we know...thats Innuendo, I'm Going Slightly Mad, All Gods People, Hitman, Delilah, and Bijou (yep, Bijou is Freddie's)......so while just months away from dying from AIDS, Freddie wrote 6 of the 12 Innuendo tracks... and no doubt contributed to others. You tell me who Queen's chief songwriter was? |
| mike hunt 15.05.2006 00:47 |
anyone who knows the history of queen knows who the cheif songwriter of queen was. It's been proven over the last 15 years since freddies death. I believe from 1988 to 1991 was possibly freddies best period, outside of the first five albums. check this out all you non believers! freddie in his last the years: Innuendo, slightly mad, don't try so hard, all gods people, delilah, hitman, bijou, a winter's tale, mother love, barcelona (whole album) was it all worth it, the miracle. Need I say more! |
| roy_fokker 15.05.2006 06:16 |
I think you're trying to discuss about the sex of angels.. Just listening to Queen members' solo albums you'll realise that they're all excellent songwriters, but, in the meanwhile, you'll recognize that Queen songs have got a specific identity that comes out from the 'inter-action' of all the bandmembers. (Only exception, perhaps, Brian's Back to the Light, which sometimes really seems to me like a kind of Queen album, only without Freddie on vocals!) This said... I do really think that the idea of crediting Queen songs - since the Miracle - only to Queen, reflected also a change in their songwriting. In my opinion, in facts, many songs especially from Innuendo, are a result of a co-writing, and co-arrangement of the 4 members. Innuendo, more specifically, is a complex intersection of different elements... I would not be surprised to learn that it's a team work. |
| roy_fokker 15.05.2006 06:20 |
ps. the Poison song is not 'ride the wild wing', but 'ride the wind', from 'Flesh & Blood', 1990. Typical american glam-rock song, nice to listen when you're at the seaside ;-) |
| Sebastian 15.05.2006 08:37 |
> I always wondered why was that, necuase I usually like that style of songwriting in other writers, not in Brian, anyways. Brian had imo some very good moments and some rather poor bits as well. I absolutely love his solo career (more than Queen) but why a shitty track like 'I'm Scared' got a spot in such a brilliant album is beyond me. > Do you think that Fred had in general more melodic genius than Brian? No. But Freddie'd got a more effective quality control approach, which allowed him to be averagely more catchy (charts show how most of the hits were his) and much less repetitive in spite of the fact he wrote more songs. > I find his melodies are almost always pretty long and innovative, quite unpredictable sometimes, and I truly love that. That's right. No wonder why he said he focused on that first, and then the structure (another very clever aspect of his compositions). > Was it Montserrat the one who praised Freddie's melodic skills? Yes, and many others. I remember Roger saying he was the one with the idea of releasing 'Bo Rhap' as a single because when he heard it he thought the melody was beautiful. > I'm sure I recall Greg Brooks saying that there is a version of Innuendo with Rog on vocal (maybe a guide vocal for Fred) Greg has made terrible mistakes in the past (read his book and you'll find scores of them). Even if there's a demo version sung by Roger it's not neccesarily a guide vocal. We don't know how long is that alleged take and what does it say. It can be Roger trying out the words he penned on the melody Freddie wrote. > also wasn't Fred writting songs like Delilah What you posted are the lyrics. And indeed 'Innuendo' is chiefly Roger's (lyrically). But judging Fred's 100+ tracks just because of 'Delilah' is just as absurd as thinking all Brian's songs have lyrics like 'Sweet Lady' or all Roger's songs are similar to 'Interlude In Constantinople', in such case there's no way he could have written 'Days Of Our Lives' ;) > Lets just presume on the Innuendo that Freddie just wrote and contributed to the songs we know...thats Innuendo, I'm Going Slightly Mad, All Gods People, Hitman, Delilah, and Bijou And Don't Try So Hard. > freddie in his last the years: Innuendo, slightly mad, don't try so hard, all gods people, delilah, hitman, bijou, a winter's tale, mother love, barcelona (whole album) was it all worth it, the miracle. Need I say more! Mother Love's music is Brian's, and the entire Barcelona album co-credits Mike Moran, although Montserrat's comments imply somehow that Freddie did write the songs (i.e. chords, lyrics, melody), so probably what Mike did was scoring the orchestral parts (with Freddie) and the two of them decided the structure. Hard to tell... > Just listening to Queen members' solo albums you'll realise that they're all excellent songwriters, but, in the meanwhile, you'll recognize that Queen songs have got a specific identity that comes out from the 'inter-action' of all the bandmembers. Not really. It's unfair to draw such conclusions considering that both Freddie's solo efforts were deliberately made parallel to Queen, and they intended to be very different to the band's sound. Same for Roger's. Brian's solo albums were obviously trying to keep the Queen sound, but if Roger, Freddie or John had wanted to make solo records sounding like Queen they could have. > I do really think that the idea of crediting Queen songs - since the Miracle - only to Queen, reflected also a change in their songwriting. Lyrically, yes. But as you can see all of the songs did have one main songwriter for the chords. The fact that they all four were in the credits solved the royalty thing and (probably) avoided a lot of fights, but still they composed separately. > In my opinion, in facts, many songs especially from Innuendo, are a result of a co-writing, and co-arrangement of the 4 members. John barely contribut |
| Serry... 15.05.2006 13:12 |
Sebastian, what about "Rock In Rio Blues"? Although that's an improvisation, but is it more in Freddie's style, Brian's, Roger's, John's? |
| Sebastian 15.05.2006 13:24 |
I don't quite remember, but doesn't it use cliché chord progressions? if so, then actually nobody composed the chords, and most likely each one improvised his own parts. |
| KillerQueen1429 18.05.2006 22:53 |
Scott_Mercury wrote:u dont seem like a Queen fan ur a Freddie fan , do u have anything positive to say about any of the other members?? Queen was a success becuz of all 4 members , they were who they were cuz of all 4 them together , Freddie wasnt as big on his own so that should tell u that he needed the others as well as they needed him.Roger is an intelligent man and musician so y think he couldnt have come up wit a great song like Innuendo , even IF Freddie wrote most of it.He contributed somewhere so in a way it was Rogers song too.Nightjar_ wrote: I'm sure I recall Greg Brooks saying that there is a version of Innuendo with Rog on vocal (maybe a guide vocal for Fred) also wasn't Fred writting songs like: Delilah Delilah Delilah Oh my oh my oh my you're irresistible You make me smile when I'm just about to cry You bring me hope you make me laugh - and I like it You get away with murder so innocent But when you throw a moody you're all claws and you bite That's all right Delilah Delilah Oh my oh my oh my you're unpredictable You make me so very happy When you cuddle up and go to sleep beside me And then you make me slightly mad When you pee all over my Chippendale suite Delilah Delilah Oh oh oh oh oh oh oh You take over my house and home You even try to answer my telephone Delilah you're the apple of my eye Meeow meeow meeow Delilah I love you Delilah Oh you make me so very happy You give me kisses and I go out of my mind ooh Meeow meeow meeow You're irresistible - I love you Delilah Delilah I love you Hah hah You make me very happy Oh yeah - I love your kisses I love your kisses I love your kisses I love your kisses I love your your your kisses I love your kisses possibly queen worst moment (with Fred) sorry Fred!!!Is it maybe that your profile page says that Roger is your favorite member, and therefore you overlook facts to root for the Queen member you want to be the songs writer?? Facts: * Innuendo is out of Roger's league musically. * Roger's 2 biggest hits of the 1980's would not have became what they were without Freddie taking them over...to the point of where Brian and John both felt Freddie should have taken co-writing credit on Radio Ga Ga and A Kind of Magic. * Freddie was also writing songs like Innuendo, I'm Going Slightly MAd, All Gods People, Hitman, and being that Freddie wrote more of Queen's hits and songs then any of the others, I think it would be dumb to think that he didn't contribute lyrically and musically to the other songs on Innuendo. Lets just presume on the Innuendo that Freddie just wrote and contributed to the songs we know...thats Innuendo, I'm Going Slightly Mad, All Gods People, Hitman, Delilah, and Bijou (yep, Bijou is Freddie's)......so while just months away from dying from AIDS, Freddie wrote 6 of the 12 Innuendo tracks... and no doubt contributed to others. You tell me who Queen's chief songwriter was? |
| Sebastian 19.05.2006 07:45 |
> u dont seem like a Queen fan ur a Freddie fan Just because he says Freddie was the chief songwriter? Well, hello ... he was! If I say Roger was better on the high range than Freddie does it make me a Taylor-fan? Roger is (for me) the best instrumentalist in the band. As a composer he's just as good as the other three considering he can write good songs (Days Of Our Lives, Happiness). Yet, Innuendo's out of his league, full stop. > Queen was a success becuz of all 4 members For some extent yes, but on the other side they went to international stardom because of Bo Rhap, and Bo Rhap caught the attention because they were already averagely famous thanks to Killer Queen, and that hit big locally because Seven Seas had been a top ten. They went to #1 in the US with Crazy Little Thing and that led to their brief period of being "American Idols". And who wrote all of those? > Freddie wasnt as big on his own so that should tell u that he needed the others That's a badly out of context argument: when Fred did Mr Bad Guy he deliberately wanted to get away from the Queen sound, same with Barcelona. It doesn't mean that Freddie wasn't able to compose masterpieces without the others. Same for Roger: his solo albums are different from the Queen sound because he wanted them to. > Roger is an intelligent man and musician so y think he couldnt have come up wit a great song like Innuendo Because a song like Innuendo takes more than being an intelligent man and musician. Let me put it this way: if you can't speak German, and you've never spoken German, is it possible for you to learn (phonetically) basic commands overnight? Yes. Is it possible to learn a poem in German in short time? Yes. Is it possible to magically give a philosophical comference in German? No. Same thing here: Innuendo's got a lot of metre changes, key-changes and many many many small details absent in Roger's compositional vocabulary (check what I've listed previously). I don't mean Freddie's "better", but he obviously had a larger range of tools that take not only craftsmanship but also a lot of practice to employ, it's not sort of "well, I want to write a complex piece now" and hocus-pocus. For that same reason, Freddie wouldn't be able to score something like the orchestral arrangements of Who Wants To Live Forever. |
| deleted user 19.05.2006 08:02 |
To add to Sebastian's post, writing a song is about 50% creativity and 50% technique. Both Roger and Freddie had a lot of creativity, and put it to good use. However, Roger wasn't as proficient technically, so he couldn't make songs as complex as Freddie could, though he could write wonderful songs. |
| john bodega 19.05.2006 12:12 |
Innuendo was great. Needs more cowbell. |
| inmsthebest 20.05.2006 06:15 |
Sebastian said:"For some extent yes, but on the other side they went to international stardom because of Bo Rhap, and Bo Rhap caught the attention because they were already averagely famous thanks to Killer Queen, and that hit big locally because Seven Seas had been a top ten. They went to #1 in the US with Crazy Little Thing and that led to their brief period of being "American Idols". And who wrote all of those?"
"That's a badly out of context argument: when Fred did Mr Bad Guy he deliberately wanted to get away from the Queen sound, same with Barcelona. It doesn't mean that Freddie wasn't able to compose masterpieces without the others. Same for Roger: his solo albums are different from the Queen sound because he wanted them to".
I can't agree more with what you said, Sebastian, very smart and so true.
You hit the nail on the head there, thanks for those so inteligent sentences.
Zebonka12 wrote: Innuendo was great. Needs more cowbell.LOl! |
| Adolfo and the spiders from Mercury 20.05.2006 12:46 |
I have always thougt that Innuendo was way to complicated to be a Roger song, Im glad it was freddie´s it seems correct |
| Danne 21.05.2006 04:39 |
<b><font color = "crimson">Thomas Quinn wrote:Not to argue with the fact that Freddie was the main author of 'Innuendo', but a track like 'Heaven For Everyone' modulates quite a lot, actually. It begins in C major, but in the chorus Roger introduces chords from D major, and creates quite a tonal ambiguity. He places it firmly in the key of D after the bridge, but in the last chorus he goes from D via E to finally end up in F# major.Another Roger (re) wrote: I still think this is mainly a Roger Taylor song. The middle section is Freddie, verses and basic idea Roger Taylor.Ok, because you're so stubborn: Roger HATED modulating. Quite a lot of modulation for a guy who hates it... :) |
| Sebastian 21.05.2006 07:38 |
Reportedly it was David Richards who transposed the lines of Heaven For Everyone in order to create a rising up effect instead of Roger's original more lineal demo. |
| Danne 21.05.2006 08:04 |
Sebastian wrote: Reportedly it was David Richards who transposed the lines of Heaven For Everyone in order to create a rising up effect instead of Roger's original more lineal demo.Interesting... I wonder to what degree. I have a hard time picturing the first chorus without the (semi-)modulation to D major. Perhaps Richards suggested the leap to E major in the final chorus? |
| Sebastian 21.05.2006 22:50 |
I suppose so. Do non-Queen versions include all of those things? |
| Danne 22.05.2006 10:24 |
Sebastian wrote: I suppose so. Do non-Queen versions include all of those things?Yes, they do. The only thing added to the Queen version, regarding shape and harmonic structure, was the guitar solo. |
| mike hunt 23.05.2006 01:49 |
roger even said his original breakthru was simple with no time changes (like most of his songs) until the rest of queen changed it. |