| Bohardy 18.11.2004 06:45 |
Brian always used to come across for the most part as being a relatively humble gent, but it seems to me that in recent times he's been trying to claim all sorts of 'firsts' and records on behalf of Queen, of which many of these claims have seemed rather hasty and speculative. His latest bit of ego-inflation is just absurd though. Hop over to his soapbox, link, and check the entry for Tuesday the 16th. He's fucking claiming that the most successful and biggest selling album of all time owes a debt of gratitude to Queen releasing arguably the shittest album of their career, Hot Space! What is Brian on? How on earth would Thriller have not been made were it not for Hot Space? Thriller was released only 6-7 months after Hot Space, and although I don't know the recording and production history of Thriller, I think it's very unlikely that MJ heard Hot Space in May 82, and then was inspired to feverishly write, record, produce and release Thriller all before December. And it's not as if Thriller was completely out of the blue for MJ, being as it was only a natural progression for MJ after Off The Wall, which was released before Queen's first foray into funk/disco/dance-orientated pop/rock with AOBTD. Plus, if Thriller was heavily influenced or inspired (or whatever it is that Bri's implying) by Hot Space, surely it would've been shit? Is this not Brian's most ludicrous ever claim? |
| trustno1 18.11.2004 06:51 |
It does indeed sound like Brian is talking shit. |
| Jjeroen 18.11.2004 07:15 |
Well... Hate to say so but I also find that Brian is getting a bit of an old, grumpy man that just cannot stop nagging people on his website... |
| Sebastian 18.11.2004 07:50 |
He's proud of the band he was in, although there are plenty of real pros for Queen instead of exaggerating supposed firsts. For instance, Brian commented there was no such modulation as the one in We Are the Champions until ... well, that. And there are two very well known examples of that: Layla, and All The Young Dudes. |
| KevMull 18.11.2004 07:56 |
And AOBTD would have never been made without Chic's Good Times :)
And he's also very peeved about what that Times journalist says about him at the recent Band Aid press conference........
"Joanna Bale, you nasty sniping little bitch."For Goodness sake Brian, after all these years 'experience' with the tabloids, you would have thought he would be a bit more thick skinned! Just waiting for him to critisize the DTS mix on Queen's set on the new Live Aid DVD. |
| Hank H. 18.11.2004 09:53 |
It's not the first time I hear somebody say that, and I never understood what on earth Hot Space had to do with Thriller. I thought there are probably hundreds of albums that had more and ealier influence on Jackson than Hot Space. Maybe Brian knows something we don't know. |
| Mr.Jingles 18.11.2004 10:06 |
I do believe that Queen might have influenced 'Thriller', although only partially. Queen showed with 'Another One Bites The Dust' that an artist could crossover and do a song of a complete different genre than their usual, and make it a very successful one. Although on Michael Jackson stuck to primarily soul, funk, pop and disco on his debut album 'Off The Wall', on 'Thriller' (particularly with 'Beat It') Michael Jackson decided to try rock, and it was an absolute success for him. Later he'd be showing success on the rock genre with songs like 'Dirty Diana', and 'Give Into Me' featuring Slash. Let's be honest, 'Hot Space' wasn't a really good album. The only kind of inspiration an artist would get from 'Hot Space' would be to not make the same kind of mistake. I'm gonna have to agree with the ones that say that Brian might be talking too much this time. |
| Brimon 18.11.2004 10:10 |
I had a chuckle when I read Brians comments. I can't believe he is serious. I'm just hoping he was trying to stir up some kind of reaction. And if he was'nt well, what next. |
| Brian_Mays_Wig 18.11.2004 10:21 |
We know that around the time of Hot Space that Queen, especially Freddie were pretty 'well in' with Micheal Jackson, AOBTD was realeased quite a while before Hot Space and MJ loved that. Im not sticking up for Brian but I think that Micheal could have had some sort of influence from Queen around that time. Yes, thriller could have been a natural progression from Off The Wall, which is also a superb album, but as was said before, Micheal started to introduce a little bit of heaviness into his work too. Why the FUCK does Hot Space get so much shit on here?? |
| Liquid Scream 18.11.2004 10:44 |
I can't argue what Brian is saying. MJ was a fan of Hot Space and I can can definately see some similarities on the two albums. What's to say he didn't use any ideas that Queen did on the album? If you take Hot Space for what it is, a dance/rock album it holds up well in that category. But being Queen its hard to handle for most fans, considering their prior output being based in rock. |
| brENsKi 18.11.2004 12:25 |
this was no "road to damascus - shining light moment" MJ was already recording Thriller by the time HS was released I think Brian maybe "slightly" exaggerating things here. apart from which, surely MJ would have given credit for it by now? let's face it if the biggest band that ever lived - The Beatles can give credit to the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds album for "helping to influence their change of direction", (listen to PS and listen to Back in the USSR) then surely, Whacko would also do the same if HS was the inspiration |
| Lester Burnham 18.11.2004 13:03 |
McCartney has repeatedly stated that he always looked to the Beach Boys and what Brian Wilson was doing to try to one up them. Revolver begat Pet Sounds, which begat Sgt. Pepper, which begat the unreleased Smile. If Michael Jackson was trying to compete with and one-up Hot Space, then there was really very little competition there. |
| tomnever 18.11.2004 14:14 |
Whatever Brian is wrong or not, he's expressing is own opinion. HE HAS THE RIGHT TO DO SO ! Even if it seems exagerated to say HS influenced directly Thriller, does he have to be insulted and treated like shit everytime he assumes an opinion which is not yours ? I ask the question because it seems to be IHateQueenZone.com more than a Fan forum and I am sorry to say that I'm bored with such negativeness. Let's argue in peace, not anger. |
| Brimon 18.11.2004 14:25 |
If Brian wants to publish his thoughts on a notice board, for all to see, then why should'nt we critisise it. If Brian says, jump, we dont necessarily have to do it. You'll probably learn more from these negative comments as you say, than you would from a group of people who went, baaaaaa. |
| tomnever 18.11.2004 14:28 |
Of course I don't mean to follow Brian's thought as if it was a kind of guru !!!!! But the opposite (excessive negativeness) is also ridiculous IMHO |
| brENsKi 18.11.2004 14:59 |
tomnever, you need to get a bite of reality...public figures who make millions out of music buyers and then decide to make very challenging statements like the HS begat Thriller one, are subject to the same rules as everyone else. That is to say - if you say something intelligent then it will be accepted as so. On the other hand, if you state something that most reasoned thinkers, in possession of all their faculties and still having active cranial matter would know to be utter bollox, then I'm afraid they are there to be shot to pieces. Brian has (unfortunately for him) spouted near-effluent, and as a result deserves the criticism being levelled at him, and you dear tomnever should see the comment for what it's worth. My best guess is that Brian will make some kinda climbdown soon, citing "being quoted out of context" - and then it will be hard to take anything he says in future without a large serving of salt |
| tomnever 18.11.2004 15:16 |
Well... I hear your argument and I'm OK with it. I already agreed it was excessive. Seems that we're OK on that too. But it's just the negative climax of most comments and several posts in this forum, not particulary on this subject that made me react, that's all. I just think there's a lot of negativeness among die-hard fans. And I think that's a shame, without seeking a responsible to that situation. One thing is certain : that's not good for the band to have fans doubting like that. Hope they hear it. I trust in them, so I just hope they will give us some new stuff to calm down everybody !! |
| Hank H. 18.11.2004 15:36 |
"I trust in them, so I just hope they will give us some new stuff to calm down everybody !!" That's the problem, I don't trust them in the sense that I think they are still capable of doing something that really interests me. I don't identify myself with much of what they do or say anymore, in the contrary. Their pull is gone. But I may still express my thoughts, from time to time, don't you think? |
| Adam Baboolal 18.11.2004 16:46 |
I too, don't understand why Hot Space gets so much flack. I like it because it's different and interesting. Nice mix of different tracks. I have to agree with Hank on something. Maybe Brian knows something we don't. Remember that Freddie and MJ were friends at that time. Where is that picture of Freddie, John and MJ from? They're all sitting in a line and MJ's looking at Freddie. Anyway, we should also remember that MJ could've been visiting Fred to see what him and the band were doing during recordings. It's possible that MJ wanted to pass on ideas to his own creative team. But we just don't know. Perhaps strange words from Brian. But we just don't know what Brian is insinuating with his comments. After-all, he does say, "probably"... Peace, Adam. |
| Lester Burnham 18.11.2004 16:55 |
Perhaps he wants to prove that Hot Space was good for something. Don't look at me like that, I love the album. |
| Melancholy Blues 18.11.2004 18:43 |
MJ was a big queen fan and used to go to their concerts. He was the one that suggested they release another one bites the dust. He was also quite close to Freddie in the early eighties, they were going to do a duet on Thriller. So it is plausable that queen had influenced him while making Thriller. |
| Richard Orchard 18.11.2004 21:21 |
i think we would all be a lot happier if we had the drugs Brian was on when he wrote that one... |
| NOTWMEDDLE 18.11.2004 21:32 |
Brian May said something to that effect back in 1989 on Rockline with Roger. Brian said Hot Space was not well received and Michael Jackson did something similar musically speaking with Thriller and hit the jackpot. Strange enough, Thriller doesn't sell in the US anymore and The Eagles' Greatest Hits is now the best selling album ever! Pink Floyd's The Wall is catching up to Thriller in the US! |
| pma 19.11.2004 06:58 |
NOTWMEDDLE wrote: The Eagles' Greatest Hits is now the best selling album ever!I'll be damned if a greatest hits album by a band called "The Eagles" is the best selling. I'm not sure if they had a hit with "Tryin' To Get To You" in 1954 or not, but the re-recording by Elvis in 1955 is quite well-known... |
| Joost 19.11.2004 08:58 |
i think that Brian is right. MJ sux big time.. with his dirty behaviour with kids. and besides, i've never liked MJ. Even Flash Gordon was a better album than Thriller..;) |
| Lord Blackadder 19.11.2004 10:37 |
NOTE: Thriller was released in 1983. NOTE II: I don't think he meant that. Jacko and Freddie were very good friends at this time, and Brian is more than likely sayin Jacko got inspiration from Hot Space's funky style. Jesus, don't take things to seriously. He isn't saying it was a Queen album that Jacko played on. |
| Awesome-O _4000 19.11.2004 10:50 |
I feel bad for the heat you guys are giving Brian. I mean, he's still a very intelligent guy with lots of good things to say. Sure, he can overdo it sometimes, and has very strong opinions, but the same can be said for nearly every retired musician. Look at Elton John, he makes Brian look like humble pie. |
| deleted user 19.11.2004 10:56 |
I think Lord Blackadder said it quite well. |
| brENsKi 19.11.2004 18:09 |
Awesome said: Sure, he can overdo it sometimes, and has very strong opinions, but the same can be said for nearly every retired musician. Look at Elton John, he makes Brian look like humble pie. retired??? much as i think his usic has been shite lately - i would have to argue about his "retirement" what the f*** is Peachtree Road? or is that by some other Elton John? |
| brENsKi 19.11.2004 18:13 |
Hank H said: That's the problem, I don't trust them in the sense that I think they are still capable of doing something that really interests me. I don't identify myself with much of what they do or say anymore, in the contrary. Their pull is gone _______________________ .....and that exactly is the whole point.....for most of their 20-year career as a band - we knew we could trust the next bit of Queen we saw/heard (hot space aside)....but as there really is no "new queen stuff" now, then the stuff they do release - WWRY/fizzy drinks ads/collaborations with crap bands etc etc....is generally so far down the toilet as to not merit a listen ....and that invariably leads me back to watching and listening to what i can trust....queen/queen II/sha/anato/adatr/notw/jazz/innuendo/miracle/ and the live bootlegs |
| Pim Derks 19.11.2004 19:01 |
"NOTE: Thriller was released in 1983." link December 11, 1982 :) |
| Adam Baboolal 19.11.2004 21:22 |
Off The Wall is from 1979 link What's the point of all this? Is it really so hard to believe that MJ could be influenced in any way by Queen. Peace, Adam. |
| Lester Burnham 19.11.2004 22:29 |
I would be more willing to back up Brian's claim if Michael Jackson actually said this somewhere. It's not entirely implausible, but it's very one-sided; Queen were obviously very influentual, but to have one of the worst-received and worst-produced Queen albums inspire one of the best-received and best-selling albums of all time is a little hard to swallow. |
| The Real Wizard 20.11.2004 02:07 |
I always have the same thought when I see a Hot Space debate: I like the album very much, but don't listen to it after you've just listened to Queen II or ANATO. |
| DeaconJohn 20.11.2004 05:45 |
Either: - Brian knows something we don't. - he's losing his marbles. He's also more arrogant than I had ever thought. Unfortunatley I think the latter is more likely. |
| DeaconJohn 20.11.2004 05:52 |
**This just in!!** Without hot space there would have been no invincible album either!! link and.... link Look at the faces, look at the colours!! I think its safe to assume Hot Space is Wacko's favourite album ever!!! I'm gonna email Brian about this, pointing out that this shows how influencual hot space is all these years on. It'll be hilarious if I get a reply from him. |
| RockitPJ 20.11.2004 08:36 |
I'm not too sure of Brian's claim, but I do know that MJ was the one who suggested the release of Another One Bites The Dust. We all know what happened after that! |
| christonline 20.11.2004 16:39 |
Someone ever heard "State of shock" performed by Michael Jackson and Freddie Mercury? |
| NOTWMEDDLE 20.11.2004 17:14 |
pma<br><font size=1>tool</font> wrote:The Eagles are an American band. The hits on this album were Take it Easy, Witchy Woman, Lyin' Eyes, Already Gone, Already Gone, Desperado, One of These Nights(US #1), Tequila Sunrise, Take it to the Limit(US #3), Peaceful Easy Feeling(US Top 20), Best of My Love(US #1). They were a country-rock band whom were successful and still are today.NOTWMEDDLE wrote: The Eagles' Greatest Hits is now the best selling album ever!I'll be damned if a greatest hits album by a band called "The Eagles" is the best selling. I'm not sure if they had a hit with "Tryin' To Get To You" in 1954 or not, but the re-recording by Elvis in 1955 is quite well-known... |
| AlexRocks 20.11.2004 17:44 |
You all miss the point. There are certain racists who say that "Their Greatest Hits 1971-1974" by the Eagles is the best selling album of all time because they only use the numbers from the U.S. Fools because it is the numbers that should be used internationally not just one country's. Internationally "Thriller" has reached the sixty million mark (and yes they use a figure over a decade old in Michael's boxset as well) and I believe with all of my heart and soul that there are certain forces out there who are trying to erase the history of Michael by saying that not only did he not really have his success, that he still does not have the success that he has had, and that he will never again have the success that he has had. I was taught growing up that it is only the uneducated that believe in conspiracy theories but I have found out what the facts are from a decade ago and now and they will be startling in next six months or so on how he has been set up in so many ways that he never deserved. I do not mean to make him out to be anything other than human but there are certain racists behind the scenes in the media who feel threatened by a black man that not one other artist out there is even able to compete with in terms of record sales. I am considered a conservative Republican in the U.S. in terms of my thinking politically and in SOME (but not all ways) that I think. I DO NOT play the race card. I have to have SERIOUS proof that such a thing is happening. I just hope that the facts that I have seen will be exposed once and for all next year. I have a hard time not seeing how they will not but then again quite a bit has happened to Michael that should not have in the first place... |
| pma 20.11.2004 18:27 |
NOTWMEDDLE wrote:And the point of my unwitty nitpicking was missed yet again, "The Eagles" were a band from the 50's. Whereas "Eagles" were the band you described in your post. Big difference, ain't it... *eyeroll*pma<br><font size=1>tool</font> wrote:The Eagles are an American band. The hits on this album were Take it Easy, Witchy Woman, Lyin' Eyes, Already Gone, Already Gone, Desperado, One of These Nights(US #1), Tequila Sunrise, Take it to the Limit(US #3), Peaceful Easy Feeling(US Top 20), Best of My Love(US #1). They were a country-rock band whom were successful and still are today.NOTWMEDDLE wrote: The Eagles' Greatest Hits is now the best selling album ever!I'll be damned if a greatest hits album by a band called "The Eagles" is the best selling. I'm not sure if they had a hit with "Tryin' To Get To You" in 1954 or not, but the re-recording by Elvis in 1955 is quite well-known... |
| flash00 20.11.2004 21:40 |
[let's face it if the biggest band that ever lived - The Beatles can give credit to the Beach Boys' Pet Sounds album for "helping to influence their change of direction", (listen to PS and listen to Back in the USSR) then surely, Whacko would also do the same if HS was the inspiration ] I personaly think the beatles were totaly overated! also with regards to hotspace its a good album ok not there best but its ok, as freddie said its only a bloody record! |
| Sebastian 16.12.2013 07:07 |
The story behind every single bit of the Thriller album has been thoroughly documented; books have been written by experts who've taken the responsibility of researching the record, not as fans or groupies, but as academics; people who did their homework and tracked down the origin of each and every song in a way and with a level of detail no Queen LP has ever been analysed (the most we have is the 'Making of ANATO' DVD where they reveal huge secrets such as John composing YMBF for his wife and Sweet Lady being in 3/4 ... things we surely would've NEVER learnt otherwise). People involved with Thriller have been approached and thoroughly interviewed, from the artist himself to the producer, engineer, guest performers... even the bloody janitor of the studios! In all that thorough and meticulous research, not a single strong connexion has been made between the best-selling album of all time (it's sold, globally, over twice as much as Queen's Greatest Hits and about sixteen times as much as ANATO) and one of Queen's weakest releases, let alone anything realistically suggesting that without HS there would've been no Thriller. Keep in mind that even though Michael loved Queen, more than half of the album was not written or composed by him, but by people who were not in the Queen circle and, as such, had no way to hear working versions of the HS songs, which means they first heard the album after its release (if at all), and by that time Human Nature, PYT and the three Temperton tracks had already been written and were in the process of recording. Let's pretend Michael did hear HS rushes or demos (there's nothing to confirm or deny that): * Wanna Be Startin' Something had been written long before Queen did even The Game album, so no, it wasn't HS influenced at all. * The Girl Is Mine has the same chord progression as a song Jacko'd written with then teenaged little brother Randy in 1978 (i.e., long before the HS songs existed) so no, it wasn't HS influenced at all. * Beat It was created when Quincy specifically asked for something similar to The Knacks' My Sharona (a huge 1979 hit in both sides of the Atlantic). Both the structure, 'concept' and inclusion of a guitar solo in the middle were influenced by it, not by HS. Beat It was, IIRC, the last song recorded for Thriller, and by that time HS had already been released, BUT the song had been written long before that. The fact both this one and Back Chat combine disco beat with guitar power chords and a killer solo is more attributable to both pieces having common influences than to one being inspired by the other. * Billie Jean, as has been largely documented, was heavily inspired (to the point it borders on plagiarism sometimes) by Hall & Oates' I Can't Go for That, which was a Billboard No 1 in early 1982 and finding a Yank (let alone one in the music business) who hadn't heard it to death in those days was like finding someone in 2013 who's never heard Thrift Shop, Get Lucky or One Way or Another (which is a cover, by the way). No relation to HS at all. So no, it's absolutely categorically 100% false that without Hot Space there'd have been no Thriller. |
| Thistle 16.12.2013 08:49 |
That's a great post Seb. Even though it's taken nine years to completely rubbish Brian's claims, it was one well worth being made. I actually wanted to respond to this thread with something really witty to back HS up over Thriller. Can't now :p |
| Thistle 16.12.2013 09:04 |
It's plain to see that Thriller never came from HS (had it not been for Seb's post above, I may have tried to argue PYT and yes, even Beat It). However, going slightly off subject, I still can't see why HS gets the shit it gets. It's by no means Queen's strongest material, but I like it. I've just done a comparison with Thriller (just checking off the songs I like from both) on the basis of tracks I'd listen to on a regular basis. The results were HS 9 from 11 (I can't be arsed with Dancer or Body language) and Thriller 5 from 9. Obviously, I can see why Thriller is a top selling album, and the 5 tracks I like from that are much stronger than anything on HS. BUT, I'd still listen to HS more..... Strange how taste in music works lol. |
| musicland munich 16.12.2013 11:19 |
The only thing MJ and producers may recognize is that those kind of songs "work". But the focus is more on "Another one bites the dust" and "Dragon Attack"...from "The Game" album,. |
| Thistle 16.12.2013 12:35 |
^ Dragon Attack blows raw monkey. Cannot stand that song! |
| Vocal harmony 16.12.2013 12:47 |
Writing songs is one thing, but the production the sound and the overall feel is something else. There is no escaping that the MJ album does have a passing resemblance to some of the way Hot Space sounds. Also in the early 80's I sat in a tiny 16 track studio one day with Rod Temperton while he was writing and demoing songs for Jackson. At the time he was listening to The Game and spoke about a funky song sung by RT on a previous album, Fun It? So maybe there is an indirect Queen influence in the MJ songs |
| Sebastian 16.12.2013 13:19 |
Vocal harmony wrote: There is no escaping that the MJ album does have a passing resemblance to some of the way Hot Space sounds.Sure, but: 1. There were several albums by other artists which had those features, predating both 'Thriller' and 'Hot Space'. 2. It doesn't mean that without 'Hot Space' there'd have been no 'Thriller'. Vocal harmony wrote: So maybe there is an indirect Queen influence in the MJ songsQueen influence maybe. 'Hot Space' influence, definitely not. |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 16.12.2013 20:54 |
Hot Space to me is an underrated album, and it's a very funk/dance album some songs because Freddie and John and Mack. Staying Power, Cool Cat, Back Chat, are good songs. The only song I don't like it is Las palabras del amor. Other can be less better, like Calling all girls, but not bad. Roger hated it, and Brian also. Said that. I don't think M.J. listened Hot Space for Thriller. Michael Jackson said, in a Rolling Stone, I'm fan of Freddie, and for tastes, Freddie and John I would say. And of course, I did an interview with Nile Rodgers, and told me John was some nights in the studio hang out with Chic... |
| Sebastian 16.12.2013 21:08 |
Apocalipsis_Darko wrote: Roger hated it, and Brian also.Roger hated it, John hated it, but Brian didn't hate it. It wasn't his favourite album or anything like that, but he didn't hate it. |
| Thistle 16.12.2013 21:17 |
^ why would John hate it, Seb? I thought it was the type of thing John was trying to get into? |
| Thistle 16.12.2013 21:17 |
It was Freddie's favourite album, btw. 99.9% of interviews suggest, anyway ;) |
| Sheer Brass Neck 16.12.2013 22:04 |
Thistleboy1980 wrote: Strange how taste in music works lol.True. If Michael Jackson came out with a Queen II soundalike after Thriller highly unlikely his fan base would love it :) |
| Sebastian 16.12.2013 22:24 |
Thistleboy1980 wrote: ^ why would John hate it, Seb? I thought it was the type of thing John was trying to get into?Not necessarily: * Staying Power: Not his type of thing. * Dancer: Not his type of thing. * Back Chat: His type of thing, except for the solo. * Body Language: Not his type of thing. * Action This Day: Not his type of thing. * Put Out the Fire: Not his type of thing. * Life Is Real: Not his type of thing. * Calling All Girls: Not his type of thing. * Las Palabras de Amor: Not his type of thing. * Cool Cat: His type of thing. * Under Pressure: His type of thing. So, 72.73% of the album wasn't John's type of thing, and of the remaining 27.27%, he had to compromise on one. |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 16.12.2013 23:06 |
Well, Mack said was type of John's thing, and Brian said no.... |
| Benn Kempster 17.12.2013 02:39 |
Hot Space is a cracking album and the tracks transferred brilliantly to the stage. Brian's guitar work really gave them an added flourish which wasn't present on the studio versions and, played at a faster tempo - turned them into real rockers. Brian, clearly, is either hitting the next stage of insanity or he's becoming even more self-obsessed than we previously thought. Brian's been public for many years over his dislike for Hot Space so now, claiming some of the credit for inspiration behind the greatest selling album in history is idiotic at the very least. |
| Sebastian 17.12.2013 05:37 |
Apocalipsis_Darko wrote: Well, Mack said was type of John's thing, and Brian said no....John said he didn't like it (1982 in Japan, 1986 in either FRG or Denmark), and John knows more about what John likes than Mack does. Brian's defended the album several times (most recently on his website), and Brian knows more about Brian's POV than any of us. It's clearly not his favourite album but that doesn't mean he hates it. Life is not black and white, and it's not a greyscale either. There are millions of colours, and not being able to see the IR or the UV doesn't mean they don't exist. |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 17.12.2013 06:02 |
Let me see the interviews with John said that, please. You are always the champions of ko Sebastian. |
| Sebastian 17.12.2013 06:55 |
link link link link link |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 17.12.2013 13:33 |
Thanks, but I can't read japanese. |
| Sebastian 17.12.2013 14:13 |
The first link is in German, not Japanese (it's not the same). John's asked about the best and worst moments of their career up to that point, and he says, roughly: 'Live Aid was the absolute peak for all four of us. I personally rate our first concert in South America highly. That was in 1982 (sic). I'd say the lowest point was our album 'Hot Space', which was released around the same time.' ------- The Music Life interview's an interesting one. They all four give their insight on 'Hot Space': Brian: 'Our sound has changed, even if some people don't like it.' Roger: 'There are conservative fans everywhere. I wonder if they want us to never change at all' (I'm unsure if that's what he's saying, but I think that's the gist of it, if anyone's willing to correct, feel free to do so). Freddie: 'I liked the album. We've been together for ten years now, so we've changed. I felt it was time to go in another direction. It was a challenge.' John: 'I don't like it at all! But it's an album made by four people, so it follows the idea of each one of us, as Queen, each one has a different personality.' Freddie (again): 'People who've been with us from our first album are shocked, but we're happy to try out new things. We wouldn't like to do the very same thing all over again.' -------- Brian on 16th November 2004: 'I've always supported Hot Space as an album .... I don't believe I've ever "apologised" ! It was an avenue we all agreed to wallk up, and I'm glad we did. There would probably never have been a "Thriller" album if we hadn't. Michael J was a huge fan... and a good friend too, especially to Freddie.' |
| brENsKi 17.12.2013 15:44 |
^^^^that makes him an arrogant cunt...with no sense of time...or an extremely selective memory |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 17.12.2013 23:08 |
Thanks Sebastian. To be honest, I think John was happy to the music direction, but not with the recordings (he left the band two weeks for holidays, because the bad feelings). And I think his point of view, later, would be that. But is only an spectulation. Obviously, Brian hated the album...what he says now...no comments. |
| Martin Packer 18.12.2013 02:46 |
Either they were all being diplomatic and parroting the party line. Or else their feelings are more nuanced than love/hate. I think a bit of both. And Thriller claim would be an overclaim. The most anyone could claim in Queen and MJ rubbed shoulders for a while and bits rubbed off on both teams. |
| Sebastian 18.12.2013 05:58 |
Apocalipsis_Darko wrote: Obviously, Brian hated the album...No, he didn't. He wrote, composed, arranged and produced 27.27% of it (that's more than what John and Roger did), he played some great guitar (both lead and rhythm), sang backing vocals, played piano and synths, programmed drums. He didn't love it to death but he didn't hate it either. |
| Thistle 18.12.2013 10:01 |
^ I wonder how many artists have written more than 27.27% of an album and then realised they actually hate it? Not saying that he does or he doesn't, but hindsight is a wonderful thing, and it could work either way - it could've been immediate hate that's turned into a mild respect or vice versa. |
| Wiley 18.12.2013 10:58 |
While all evidence makes sense, Thriller not really been influenced by Hot Space and all, isn't there a Michael Jackson interview where he mentions Queen's Hot Space by name? I'm pretty sure someone shared it here around 2009 or so. |
| Thistle 18.12.2013 11:39 |
^ Yes, I think I can recall that, but struggling to find it. What might be interesting to add to it all is the thought about WHEN FM/Queen & MJ became close. Pre HS, in which case it's more likely that Thriller tracks influenced HS if they were already laid down, or AFTER (which still makes part of Brian's claim plausible)......perhaps it was MJ liking HS that led to the collaboration? My memory is fuzzy on the issue.... |
| Sebastian 18.12.2013 12:06 |
Thistleboy1980 wrote: I wonder how many artists have written more than 27.27% of an album and then realised they actually hate it?Some artists have written 100% of an album and still hated it, but it's not the case here. Brian's never claimed to have hated 'Hot Space'. He's always defended it. It's definitely not his favourite album, but it doesn't mean he hates it. Life's not black and white, and it's not a greyscale either; not being able to see the IR or the UV doesn't mean they don't exist. Thistleboy1980 wrote: it could've been immediate hate that's turned into a mild respect or vice versa.Or it could be, like in this case, that he didn't love the album but he didn't hate it either. Some fans like to think about Brian as some sort of metalhead who automatically rejects anything that's not filled with epic guitar solos and badass drumming, but the truth is his tastes have always been eclectic, from classical to jazz, from hard-rock to pop, from lullabies to Eastern-influenced. 'Hot Space' wouldn't possibly be part of his 'desert island' choices, but it's got enough details that may appeal the doctor and which, coincidentally, aren't John's kind of thing at all. Wiley wrote: isn't there a Michael Jackson interview where he mentions Queen's Hot Space by name?AFAIK, there isn't. He also failed to mention it on his autobiography. Thistleboy1980 wrote: What might be interesting to add to it all is the thought about WHEN FM/Queen & MJ became close.They met in late 1976 and they were quite close by 1979-1980. He was supposed to make a surprise appearance at one of the concerts in Inglewood and guest-sing on 'We Are the Champions' but he 'chickened out' (Roger's words, not mine). Thistleboy1980 wrote: (which still makes part of Brian's claim plausible)Nothing makes any part of Brian's claim plausible other than wishful thinking by deluded fans who want to believe everything in the world is connected to Queen. The truth is, the story behind every single bit of the Thriller album has been thoroughly documented; books have been written by experts who've taken the responsibility of researching the record, not as fans or groupies, but as academics; people who did their homework and tracked down the origin of each and every song in a way and with a level of detail no Queen LP has ever been analysed (the most we have is the 'Making of ANATO' DVD where they reveal huge secrets such as John composing YMBF for his wife and Sweet Lady being in 3/4 ... things we surely would've NEVER learnt otherwise). People involved with Thriller have been approached and thoroughly interviewed, from the artist himself to the producer, engineer, guest performers... even the bloody janitor of the studios! In all that thorough and meticulous research, not a single strong connexion has been made between the best-selling album of all time (it's sold, globally, over twice as much as Queen's Greatest Hits and about sixteen times as much as ANATO) and one of Queen's weakest releases, let alone anything realistically suggesting that without HS there would've been no Thriller. Keep in mind that even though Michael loved Queen, more than half of the album was not written or composed by him, but by people who were not in the Queen circle and, as such, had no way to hear working versions of the HS songs, which means they first heard the album after its release (if at all), and by that time Human Nature, PYT and the three Temperton tracks had already been written and were in the process of recording. Let's pretend Michael did hear HS rushes or demos (there's nothing to confirm or deny that): * Wanna Be Startin' Something had been written long before Queen did even The Game album, so no, it wasn't HS influenced at all. * The Girl Is Mine has the same chord progression as a song Jacko'd written with then teenaged little brother Randy in 1978 (i.e., long before the HS songs existed) so no, it wasn't HS influenced at all. * Beat It was created when Quincy specifically asked for something similar to The Knacks' My Sharona (a huge 1979 hit in both sides of the Atlantic). Both the structure, 'concept' and inclusion of a guitar solo in the middle were influenced by it, not by HS. Beat It was, IIRC, the last song recorded for Thriller, and by that time HS had already been released, BUT the song had been written long before that. The fact both this one and Back Chat combine disco beat with guitar power chords and a killer solo is more attributable to both pieces having common influences than to one being inspired by the other. * Billie Jean, as has been largely documented, was heavily inspired (to the point it borders on plagiarism sometimes) by Hall & Oates' I Can't Go for That, which was a Billboard No 1 in early 1982 and finding a Yank (let alone one in the music business) who hadn't heard it to death in those days was like finding someone in 2013 who's never heard Thrift Shop, Get Lucky or One Way or Another (which is a cover, by the way). No relation to HS at all. So no, it's absolutely categorically 100% false that without Hot Space there'd have been no Thriller. |
| Thistle 18.12.2013 13:08 |
Sebastian wrote: Life's not black and white, and it's not a greyscale either; not being able to see the IR or the UV doesn't mean they don't exist.I'm one person who knows that, for sure. I've got a really shitty, over-complicated life going on right here, so I understand that. Tbh, I'm fed up seeing that same line. We get on OK Seb, so spare me the lecture on life's ways, it really is quite patronising. |
| Thistle 18.12.2013 13:11 |
^^ Wow! The copy and paste job was not needed lol. I saw that post the first time, and agreed. All I said was that possible timing COULD have made part of Brian's claims plausible. COULD have. Devil's advocate. Thriller tracks, even before release, may have been heard by, and influenced Queen's HS. HS, on the other hand, might have had some form of influence on Thriller. It is possible. We can go with the available facts, and take from that the evidence that's required to say that Brian is talking shite, but as you keep saying, life's not B&W. There COULD be wee things we can't find the evidence on, so although the claim looks unlikely, we can never say for certain. I happen NOT to be one of the sheep you've described, and side with what you're saying, but there are still things to consider. You can't say that Brian's claims are not plausible, because there may just exist something that we haven't seen/heard. |
| Thistle 18.12.2013 13:22 |
SEB WROTE: Some artists have written 100% of an album and still hated it, but it's not the case here. Brian's never claimed to have hated 'Hot Space'. He's always defended it. It's definitely not his favourite album, but it doesn't mean he hates it. Life's not black and white, and it's not a greyscale either; not being able to see the IR or the UV doesn't mean they don't exist. ===================================== How do we know, that in all this "grayscale", Brian just isn't being a stubborn sod? |
| Thistle 18.12.2013 13:44 |
Bearing in mind I'm not actually arguing with you Seb, I'm just throwing in "what ifs" because they may just exist. So hope all is still cool after this debate :) |
| mooghead 18.12.2013 13:59 |
Why wait 9 years to post a reply to such shit? Bored? Drunk? |
| Thistle 18.12.2013 14:02 |
^ who you talkin' 'bout, Willis? |
| Sebastian 18.12.2013 14:08 |
Thistleboy1980 wrote: Tbh, I'm fed up seeing that same line.You can choose to skip it. It's easy: every time you see a post from me and the words 'life's not black and white...', you know where that's going, so you can choose not to read it. Simple as that. Thistleboy1980 wrote: You can't say that Brian's claims are not plausible.Of course I can. Watch me: 'Brian's claims are not plausible.' Now, whether that's true or not (Brian's claims could be plausible, or could not be plausible), it's a different matter, but in either case, of course I can say it. Thistleboy1980 wrote: How do we know, that in all this "grayscale", Brian just isn't being a stubborn sod?We don't, so we go with the most logical conclusion, which varies on each individual. For some, it's an 'everything in the world is connected with Queen, Queen were responsible for the declination of the Soviet Union and they are the reason why there's life on this planet.' For others, it's more like 'Brian's wrong when he claims without 'Hot Space' there would've been no 'Thriller'.' For others, it's 'Brian's being a stubborn sod.' For others, it's 'there may be something we don't know.' And so on and so forth. Thistleboy1980 wrote: Bearing in mind I'm not actually arguing with you SebAnd even if you were, there's nothing wrong with it. Thistleboy1980 wrote: I'm just throwing in "what ifs" because they may just exist.And that's quite healthy and useful when it comes to any sort of 'research' like this one. Sometimes, however, things are in a shade of grey which is dark enough to be deemed 'black' (or light enough to be deemed 'white', or shades of orange close to yellow, or any other example). Who was a better drummer between Roger and Brian? What if, unbeknownst to all, Brian's secretly a world-class drummer and it was actually him who recorded all the tricky parts? That, while theoretically possible, enters in the scope of inane conspiracy theories, and the possibility of such a thing being actually true is close enough to 0% that it's far more logical to simply ignore it and go with 'Roger was/is a far better drummer than Brian.' When it comes to some discussions/debates, some are more balanced than others. Was Bobby Charlton better than Dennis Law? There could be endless arguments in favour of each option. Was José Mourinho better player than Pelé? I think that one's pretty one-sided. So: which album was better between 'Opera' and 'Races'? Up to personal opinion, which is entirely subjective. Which album was released first? There's one definite answer, full stop. Was 'Thriller' inspired or influenced by 'Hot Space' in any significant way, even to the point of believing that without the latter we wouldn't have had the former? The overwhelming evidence points at a very clear 'no.' Thistleboy1980 wrote: So hope all is still cool after this debate :)I enjoy these debates and have absolutely no problem in standing corrected if that's the case, as I've been wrong many times; I've absolutely no problem either in keeping a firm stance if evidence supports it, and just as I've been wrong many times, I've also been right many times. That doesn't make me any 'superior' to anybody else, but not 'inferior' either. There's nothing personal on these things as they're 'just' geeky banter about a rock group. We're not changing the world or curing any terminal illnesses, which means that it'd be absolutely ridiculous for me to be pissed off at you just because of an on-line debate. This very post took me roughly seven minutes to write, so it's not the end of the world. I like discussing these things, but they're not 'serious business.' At the end of the day, I'm neither able nor willing to change anybody else's POV, just like it'd be entirely futile for anyone to try to change mine. |
| mooghead 18.12.2013 14:19 |
Thistleboy1980 wrote: ^ who you talkin' 'bout, Willis?Looking at this thread... it seems some bullshit from 9 years ago was just answered by that greg person..... just sayin..... |
| Thistle 18.12.2013 15:02 |
@ Seb, I can dig a lot of what you've just said. I'm not going to paste the damn thing as this is getting lengthy enough. I'll just say that, as this is just healthy but geeky banter that has no real importance or consequence, or even an impact on your life, you are such a pompous and overly-pedantic git lol. But I love ya anyways :) !! @ Moog - yep. It's bullshit. But it's clearly been a while since this bullshit reared its head: probably more fun to talk about than whether or not the Rainbow DVD will be released hehe. |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 18.12.2013 23:06 |
Sebastian, there are interviews of Brian saying he didn't like it that style of music they did in Hot Space.... |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 18.12.2013 23:26 |
Is there a differnce between the music you create by yourself and what you play with Queen? That's a delicate question. Yes, there is. I haven't found it that easy to accustom myself to the new stuff. A lot of the music which Freedie and John want to do is more R&B oriented, and it's hard for me to do that because my playing is a reaction to that style, in a sence. I used to listen to people plucking away on Motown records, and I really didn't like it. I always thought to my self, "That's the kind of thing I don't want to play. link Also, Mack's son is called Frederick John because Freddie and John, who were the persons who wanted to do an album like that. |
| Sebastian 19.12.2013 06:35 |
Apocalipsis_Darko wrote: I always thought to my self, "That's the kind of thing I don't want to play.That doesn't mean he hated the album. It means SOME of the album material (e.g., Body Language) was quite different from what he'd been used to in the past. He didn't say 'I hate the album.' He said 'I always thought to my self, "That's the kind of thing I don't want to play,' and he was referring to SOME of the material, NOT all of it. Apocalipsis_Darko wrote: Also, Mack's son is called Frederick John because Freddie and John, who were the persons who wanted to do an album like that.No, he's called John Frederick (not the same) because John and Frederick were the godfathers. That doesn't mean AT ALL that John wanted the album like that. Freddie said it clear: he 'forced THE OTHER THREE'. Again, John knows more about what John likes than Mack, more than you, more than me, more than Maylor... and John said, *repeatedly*, that he didn't like the album. Which makes sense: if he was into R&B, soul, disco, etc., he would've complained if he thought his bandmates weren't doing it right. 'Dancer' and 'Body Language', for instance, two tracks on which he didn't even play. Add to that the fact that John had to compromise and change his vision for 'Bach Chat' and he was probably not too thrilled about some of the songs on the B-Side such as 'Put Out the Fire' (not his kind of thing) and 'Las Palabras de Amor' (not his kind of thing) and voila, you get an album he disliked. On 'The Game' John did a lot: he wrote two songs, played some nice rhythm guitar on both, and the bass is very interesting on nearly all the songs (PtG, DA, AOBtD, NYLT, CLTCL, DTS, SASS, CS and SM, 'Rock It' is arguably the only exception). On 'Hot Space', on the contrary, there are several songs where he doesn't even play, and others where all he does is a very static line. 'Under Pressure' and 'Back Chat' are the only ones where he's got a 'lead' role of some sort. John was into disco, R&B and soul, but it doesn't mean he liked EVERYTHING that was done in any of those styles. On the contrary, an expert will be harder to please. Who moans the most about a Queen release? The fans, because they (we) can identify the mistakes and get annoyed by them, whereas someone else wouldn't even notice or care. John would be more likely to dislike 'Dancer' (a song he didn't even play on) if he felt it was a 'wrong' way to do that kind of music. |
| shannaschaffer 19.12.2013 13:27 |
I love this "geeky" banter! You guys make my day better. And Moog, thanks for changing your avatar :) |
| musicland munich 19.12.2013 18:59 |
.. |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 19.12.2013 19:51 |
hahaha, Sebastian, you are one in a million! I enjoy our discussions ;) With good brivations, without irony. I always prefer to talk with someone who doesn't have my vision of things and can do it with respect. |
| Thistle 19.12.2013 20:07 |
^ there's a sarcasm in a lot of Seb's answers that make a mockery of respect. In fact, a lot of his QZ persona is based around pure cuntery. Which I like!! He does it with class and sophistication, and, amongst it all, teaches us things with his undoubted, Queen oozing brain. 99.9% of the time. :P |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 19.12.2013 22:59 |
Im not agree with a lot of Sebastian's opinions, but I don't matter. Is arrogant and endering at the same time ;) He knows a lot about music. I would pay to assist a discussion group with Sebastian, John, Maylor, Mack, David Richards, Roy Thomas Baker... But my prefer character in Queen Zone is Frank Zappa! |
| Sebastian 19.12.2013 23:43 |
Apocalipsis_Darko wrote: hahaha, Sebastian, you are one in a million!Everyone is one in a million. That's the whole point of it, IMO. |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 20.12.2013 06:30 |
;) |
| Sebastian 05.09.2016 12:22 |
By the way: https://youtu.be/gzOt2VGUAlk?t=8m12s There, crystal clear: John didn't like it. Source: John himself. |
| Sebastian 05.06.2017 08:17 |
The new book has Brian, yet again, claiming 'Hot Space' was the inspiration for 'Thriller,' even though it's utter non-sense. |
