| John S Stuart 21.10.2004 19:34 |
Greg, you are so correct. I used to be a proper little "Stepford" and groveller and slide my tongue along any ar*se with a QP tattoo. Then one day, the penny dropped. There are as many (if not more) rarities OUTSIDE QP - than there are inside. So I went for those instead. This world is an evil place. Everything is available. Dancing bears, loose women, drugs, pills, uppers, downers, penis-extensions, (hope you like the link here) cannons, arms, spent uranium... and in that context, a few Queen tracks become small and irrelevant. Then suddenly, one day - MINE was the ars* being kissed, and re the "Hangman" acetate - we both know there is a world of difference between "can't be found - and does not exist". So the thing is (and this is NOT "holding a grudge" or a "shoulder chip") I don't care anymore. Below is what I have to say about the box-sets. I know that you may not be interested - but I think it is worth saying anyway. |
| John S Stuart 21.10.2004 19:45 |
This will have to take place over a few mails so I will start with Part one: "The bottom line is - nice, but nothing special". Do not pin your hopes on the magical boxsets – as they will only disappoint. The proposed “Queen” boxsets are not a new idea. Possibly the best example of such an archived anthology would be the seminal “Beatles Anthology” DVD and CD sets. However, as we all know “Queen” are not the “Beatles”. To start with - the proposed “Queen” anthology stretches over twenty years of material, while the “Beatles” collection barely covers twelve (1958 – 1970), and while the “Beatles” remained faithful to EMI and it’s subsidiaries, “Queen” (and their solo works) – especially abroad - are a logistic nightmare. For example: Have you ever asked yourself why there are NO “Solo Flix” DVDs? Roger Taylor alone worked with two “bands” over many labels - EMI, Electrola, and Virgin. All have separate territories, and separate rights – so even if he wanted to release Solo/Cross material, it would be a very difficult project to legally undertake. (Not impossible – but very difficult). Add to that the works of Brian May, The “Immortals”, and numerous collaborations and guest appearances – and you really do create an impossible task. Like the “Beatles”, the “Queen” box would cover four main periods (Excluding interviews and live performances), namely: Pre-success, At The BBC, Alternative versions and Unreleased demos. Following the same pattern, let’s begin with pre-Queen. Pre-success: “Smile” and “The Left Handed Marriage” have previously been released. A pre-Queen Freddie has also been released with the “Ibex” and “Wreckage” material appearing on the 10 CD “Freddie Mercury: Solo Collection”. We already know that further pre-Queen Freddie will NOT feature as part of a “Queen” collection, but no matter, as this has been heavily bootlegged anyway. Unless both Brian and Roger have a change of heart – there will be NO “Reaction” or “1984”, and as for John, I can not see him coming out of retirement to plug an “Opposition” acetate. The bottom line is - nice, but nothing special. At The BBC: Unfortunately, unlike the “Beatles” massive BBC collection, “Queen” by comparison recorded a small number of tracks for the Beeb. Besides, all the “Queen” BBC sessions have also been “released”, (two of which are still officially available). The remaining sessions have been heavily bootlegged, and I believe, exist in the “Queen” Hub, so no surprises there either. Again, the bottom line is - nice, but nothing special. |
| John S Stuart 21.10.2004 19:50 |
Alternative versions: Forgive me if I return to the mammoth 10 CD “Freddie Mercury: Solo Collection” as an example, because this success has raised unattainable expectations for the “Queen” equivalent. Simply, this is because we are not comparing “like for like”, it is like comparing apples not with other apples (notice the return to the “Beatles” reference) but apples with oranges. Let me explain. First: Material. The Freddie set was not crammed with as many rarities as people think. Dismissing the “David Wigg Interviews” CD and the “Video Collection” and the “Untold Story” DVDs - “Mr Bad Guy”, “Barcelona”, “Great Pretender”, “Singles 1973 – 1975”, and “Singles 1986 – 1993” had all been previously available - nice, but nothing special. From the disc entitled “Rarities 3 (Other Sessions)”, “Rain” (Ibex), and “Green” (Wreckage), and “Have A Nice Day (Fan Club Message)” had all been bootlegged, while “Man From Manhattan”, “Love Is The Hero EC 12” Extended”, “Hold On”, “Heaven For Everyone (Cross Version)”, “Love Kills (Rock Mix)”, had once again been in their time, official releases - nice, but nothing special. Of the three remaining CD’s, one was a dedicated disc of Instrumentals: (Not that there is anything wrong with instrumentals – but - perhaps it’s worthwhile noting that because of the process of recording vocal and instruments separately ALL “Queen” tracks would exist as purely instrumental and acapella versions). Some of these Mercury karaoke versions like “Ensueno” had also been available previously - while others like the “Great Pretender” were a welcome addition. From the remaining “Rarity Discs” other instrumental fillers (again the official version with the vocal channel removed), included tracks like “Foolin’ Around”, and “Love Kills”. Now while these instrumental sets may have worked with Mercury, they would not work so well with “Queen”. This is because we are ALREADY swamped with official “Queen” instrumentals. We have a two CD/DVD set of “Karaoke Greatest Hits”, and a five CD set of “The eYe”. I concede that I would love to hear instrumental versions of “Killer Queen” or “Love Of My Life”, but they are hardly going to release every Queen track recorded as an instrumental variation. Again nice - but nothing special. (Unless it was a disc of never issued anywhere tracks). Second: chronology. Much of the early “Queen” masters have been stolen, destroyed or erased. This means most of the pre 1980 “Queen” material is missing. Therefore, in terms of chronology, the “Queen” box set would be “top heavy” – that is very little representative from the early years, but a glut of material from the latter. (A bit of a famine and a feast really). Even the De Lane Lea demos would have to come from either an enhanced copy of the “In The Beginnig” bootleg, or a copy of Brian May’s home acetate, either way – very little from the period survives. Third: Official Alternatives: Many Queen alternatives (non-CD “B” sides like “A Human Body”, “Box Of Tricks” 12” collection, and Hollywood releases and remixes) have already been released as official product. Returning to the Freddie set many of the alternatives were variations of the same track. Love Me Like There’s No Tomorrow, (Early Version), Love Me Like There’s No Tomorrow (2nd Early Version), Love Me Like There’s No Tomorrow (3rd Early Version), Love Me Like There’s No Tomorrow (Live Take), Your Kind Of Lover (Earlier Version), Your Kind Of Lover (Vocal & Piano Version), Idea (Barcelona – Garden Lodge Extract), Idea (Barcelona – Garden Lodge Extract II), Barcelona (Early Version), Barcelona (Freddie’s Vocal Slave), Barcelona (Later Version), Golden Boy (Early Version), Golden Boy (2nd Early Version), Golden Boy (Acapella). Of the “Top heavy” end, bootlegs of “Convention Greatest Hits” (NOT my titling) are also popular in the hub. “Robbery”, I Guess We’re Falling Out” “My Secret Fantasy” and “Self-Made Man” – to name a few (tracks never heard of |
| wstüssyb 21.10.2004 19:53 |
*chew some popcorn* |
| Lester Burnham 21.10.2004 20:25 |
wstüssyb wrote: *chew some popcorn*Pass the popcorn, I've got some artificial butter topping. |
| joeyjojo 21.10.2004 20:49 |
So...you're saying the boxsets will be nice but nothing special since bootleggers and die-hard collectors already have heard it all? Umm...OK. |
| Adam Baboolal 21.10.2004 20:53 |
Yeah joeyjojo, I'm thinking the same thing. |
| Lester Burnham 21.10.2004 21:00 |
Well it's a good thing you posted about it! |
| Richard Orchard 21.10.2004 22:24 |
fantastic post John. Can't wait for the rest. |
| Penis - Vagina 22.10.2004 00:08 |
Hey, you took out the underaged boys comment. That was funny! You edit too much John :-P |
| John S Stuart 22.10.2004 00:22 |
It's Adam's and Lester's fault. Lester Burnham: "How dare you inject a bit of personality into your posts, John"! "All we want is information! Nobody asked you to be a standup comedian! Just deliver the facts, John!!" These bigger boys threatend me with a wedgie!!! |
| Lester Burnham 22.10.2004 00:37 |
And don't you forget it! I'll steal your lunch money next. |
| iGSM 22.10.2004 04:05 |
Don't worry about Lester John. He's as tame as a brumby. |
| deleted user 22.10.2004 06:56 |
*Sitting next to William and Richard, chewing popcorn and can't wait for the following...* |
| Whisperer 22.10.2004 07:18 |
I don't understand why they couldn't include the complete Ibex concert and all the Wreckage out-takes to the box. |
| deleted user 22.10.2004 07:30 |
My guess is: the FM solo collection was meant to be the complete and final work over Freddie's carreer. Adding some other (forgotten, or "unfounded"...) stuff on the QUEEN boxset would be equal to say: "We failed, we forgot some recordings, what you actually have is NOT the complete "opera omnia" over FM..." And I'm sure this won't ever happen, especially after all the quarrels we had here recently... |
| AlexRocks 22.10.2004 17:01 |
People, people. This guy has some interesting comments but is comming off as a spoiled little brat. Claiming all this stuff is already out there as bootlegs or what have you. Well guess the hell what? The rest of us here on earth don't have or know where to get these magical mystery bootlegs so a proper good sounding nice packaged set is welcomed. I find it hard to believe that Queen are somehow lying that they don't have good stuff to release as many box sets or making the catelog into double c.d. sets. I also would like to say forget the FM Solo Collection box set for what it was or attempted to be. Compilations can always be deleted if so chosen if they are so "terrible" like this guy is saying. For god's sake dude don't buy them!!! They won't bite you in the night when you are not looking!!! For those who can't figure it out on their own since the FM Solo Colleciton box set didn't sell so well the first time don't be surprised if a more apropriate version is released some day and what material did not need to be on the box set is just released again with the actual single c.d. releases perhaps making them into double disc sets too... |
| AlexRocks 22.10.2004 17:05 |
I also would like to say that there is an appropriate way to release material like this. Some of the timing depends on what the rest of the industry are doing, the upcomming technology, or what is best to get the public interested over time so it doesn't flop unnoticed when it is released. As it is there is more on the market than the public can even be aware of at this time. Just about every artist or movie out there has more to be released whether they would like to admit it or not. Just give them some time! |
| LiveAidQueen 22.10.2004 20:33 |
*Picks an orange from Richard's Orchard* How silly... |
| AlexRocks 22.10.2004 21:05 |
Who? Me or the original poster? Or both? |
| John S Stuart 22.10.2004 22:17 |
Part Two: "The bottom line is - nice, but nothing special". Do not pin your hopes on the magical boxsets – as they will only disappoint. It was my intention to write another "feature-length" article, but with the events of the day (The "100 Greatest Bootlegs" rip-off) being uppermost in everyone's mind - why spend my precious time providing an academic point of view, when Queen Productions have already expressed my position for me? As they say "actions speak louder than words". Let's cut to the chase. What I am actually saying is "do not pin your hopes on the magical boxsets – as they will only disappoint". Here's why: Of the over-bloated 10 CD “Freddie Mercury: Solo Collection” only two discs worth of material were of any real value. That means that many, many people (not just collectors) payed well over the odds for the few (2/10 CDs = 20%) unreleased tracks. Why for example, include the easily available "Mr Bad Guy" and "Barcelona" CDs - if it was blatantly obvious at the start of the project that the set could NOT be complete, and that a number of tracks from "Wreckage", "Ibex", and "Time" (to name a few) would NOT be included? Ofcourse it was very handy to have most of Mercury's music collection in the one place and on a few shiny discs. (Previously the collector had to gather veritable armfuls of multi-sized vinyls, tapes and CD singles). It was also a very handsome book and beautifully presented, (and very handy for the first time collector). All in all, a very impressive package - but the bottom line was still - nice, but nothing special, because like thousands of other fans around the globe, I was FORCED to re-purchase, for the third time (first vinyl, then CD) discs which I did not want or need - if I desired access to those exclusive two discs! If we again return to the "Beatles", when they first released their complete back catalogue on CD - they sold each disc separately. They also compiled two discs of rarities (again they could be purchased independantly) called "Past Masters Volumes One & Two". They also sold a black wooden box container to hold all 16 discs, and an accompanying glossy book (written by "Beatles" expert Mark Lewisham) providing additional linear notes and triva for the tracks from each album. The catch? There was none. As a "Beatles" fan you could either purchase (like the Freddie Box Set) the complete package - or you could buy the component bits seperately. MGM followed suit with a similar collectable James Bond DVD set. You could either buy the complete package as a whole, or order the box and discs independently from each other. Makes sense whether you are a long-time collector, or a fresh-faced newbie. Similarly, when the "Beatles" released their Anthology trilogy of double CD sets, NONE of the massive 152 tracks were previously released, and very few proved to be muliple variations of the same track. Add to this - that no repeat purchase of back catalogue product was necessary - and that the set was released at a very affordable c£25.00 over a six month period (that's one set every two months), one can begin to see how the "Beatles" worked with their fans, rather than foist unwanted products upon them, and at the same alient poorer residents of the "Beatles" community. However as I said earlier, we are discussing "Queen not the "Beatles" - but as a postscript one wonders how the "Beatles" could get it so right, while "Queen" (trailing behind in their manufacturing wake) get it so wrong - considering that essentially they are both EMI flat-mates. So what of the proposed Queen box-sets? Forget the hype. Forget the seduction of big packages (a bit Freudian if you ask me) and colourful glossy pages. The "Queen" box will be yet another &qu |
| wstüssyb 22.10.2004 22:29 |
So it basically means we get nadda Figures > > |
| Lester Burnham 22.10.2004 22:58 |
I'd really like for you to be proven wrong, John (don't take that as an offense!), because I want these box sets to be special. However, they're quickly turning into a mystical thing that will eventually just drizzle away. QP's best decision would have been to not announce something like this happening, or at least saying "it's possible this may happen sometime in the future" without giving any specific dates. I've heard "Christmas 2002", "Spring 2003", "Christmas 2004" so many times that it's just becoming boring now. |
| Adam Baboolal 22.10.2004 23:09 |
I speak as someone who held off as much as possible on buying any Freddie related stuff because I knew of a boxset. I caved and bought a Mr Bad Guy cd. But when I finally bought the Freddie box, I felt very happy. And the Bad Guy cd included was much better than the one I had. Now, I can see why collectors weren't pleased with the repackaging, but for people like myself, it worked well. I had heard a few things, but most of the whole package was new to me. Even the videos. John, how can you compare a Freddie Boxset with a Beatles anthology? The Freddie set was a completely different animal. Unfair to say the least. Especially since there was a decent 3-cd side set that sold for a mere £15 and had a fair amount of tracks for the casual fan. The ultimate response to this comparison is that they could only spend so much on the Freddie products. Not enough demand. There is no rule that says that all boxsets must be such and such. Until a month or so ago, I hadn't heard anything bad on the box apart from, "they didn't include this" or "didn't cover this much." Fair enough, but that was that. Then suddenly people start saying it's a huge disappointment. What I'm wondering is, why do people say that now? It's been 4 years since its release. I don't want to say anything about a trend, but it is hard not to notice how dark this place has been getting over the last couple of months. And yeah, after hearing a few things on here, it could've had a few more bits and peaces. But I'm guessing they couldn't go ahead with everything. They did a good job, like you say. Could you answer a question I asked a while back? What extras would you add to the FM box? Peace, Adam. |
| Adam Baboolal 22.10.2004 23:12 |
I hear ya Lester! I used to make the same mistake as QP, e.g. announce covers that I was working on and then couldn't deliver or spent so much time on something that it was going to take ages before anyone saw anything. I changed my tune since then and it is kind of remarkable that QP don't do the same! Peace, Adam. |
| John S Stuart 22.10.2004 23:17 |
Lester Burnham: "I'd really like for you to be proven wrong, John... " - no more than I Lester, no more than I. But I am Scottish, I love football, and even before a ball was kicked this season, I KNEW that our World Cup campaign was going to be dreadful. It always IS dreadful - and with each passing season, I lament the missed opportunities - because we NEVER learn. Queen Productions are the same. They do not learn from bad mistakes, in fact, they get worse. Each season since Freddie's death - Queen have slowly become poorer and poorer. Queen are no longer heavy-hitting prize-fighters. They are two old men fading into extinction making way for the Robbie Williams and the Gareth Gates of this world, and it is like watching Mohamad Ali's crown slipping to Joe Bugner or some other less talented boxer. (Which is a shame because the "Beatles" star is yet to tarnish). As I said at the top of the thread I'd really like to be proven wrong, I really would but somehow I think the rot is too deeply set, and "nothing really matters" except the almighty dollar... |
| joeyjojo 22.10.2004 23:39 |
I don't think they're marketing to you John. They're marketing to the masses. That's how you make money. Duh. |
| Maz 23.10.2004 00:00 |
Adam Baboolal wrote: Until a month or so ago, I hadn't heard anything bad on the box apart from, "they didn't include this" or "didn't cover this much." Fair enough, but that was that. Then suddenly people start saying it's a huge disappointment. What I'm wondering is, why do people say that now? It's been 4 years since its release. I don't want to say anything about a trend, but it is hard not to notice how dark this place has been getting over the last couple of months.Let me preface this by saying I loved the Box Set and consider it one of the best purchases I'v made. Why the negative attitude now? Probably because of what it might mean for future Queen box sets. An example: Greg gets upset on the Q&A and says that the Queen set will NOT include studio albums, while at the same time saying it will follow the Freddie set in concept. Rumors, he says, bloody rumors. Well, as we all know, the Freddie set did include studio albums, thus leading to rumors. As John points out, most of what was on the 10 disc set was previously available in one way or another. What the Set did was an excellent job of collecting this material into one place, but it added very little new material (comparatively speaking). From a personal perspective, much of this commercially available stuff I did not own or had poor copies of. That is not the case with most comparable Queen material. By now, the majority of Queen collectors have the various b-sides, 12" remixes, single edits, etc. A Queen Box Set that collects this material into one place is NICE, but not GREAT. This is probably the reason that we pin our hopes for the Queen Box Set onto forgotten demos, alternate versions, and the like. And let's not forget what's been discussed in the last few days. Things like IBEX or the Time Performace could have been included in their entirety, but were not due to rights issues or were in the hands of private collectors. If that happened to a few Freddie items, it's fairly logical to assume the same happened will occur for Queen stuff. |
| John S Stuart 23.10.2004 00:00 |
Joeyjojo: I think you miss the whole point. I am not alone, there will be thousands of Queen fans in the same boat as myself, and the "Beatles" were able to satisfy ALL of their various customers (regardless of service) because they were able to market without resorting to cheap repackaging tactics. Lets see: does "Queen Rocks" ring any bells? |
| Lester Burnham 23.10.2004 00:11 |
Oh God, the bells! The bells! What horror. It could've been redeemed by GH3. Damn those bells. |
| The Real Wizard 23.10.2004 01:38 |
So basically, what you guys are saying is not to expect any studio demos on the boxed set? |
| joeyjojo 23.10.2004 07:58 |
I see what you are saying, John, but the point is that they're in it for the money...like any label. Repackaging is how the industry makes money these days. It is SO much easier to repackage what they already have than discsover new recordings, artists, or what have you. I agree with what you're saying, but find it a futile endeavor to really protest much. Not that that should stop you. |
| Sebastian 23.10.2004 09:14 |
It's my turn to get in here. In defence of John ("defense" is the American spelling), he's not accusing the box-sets to be bad, just not to get your hopes so high in them, which I agree. From my point of view, they can be good for somebody without internet or access to those great bootleg trees. As far as I know, many of those Beatles demos were already owned by many collectors, but also thousands of people didn't know about them. There was no Beatles hub or something like that back then. Nowadays, I believe the number of people having Queen "rarities" is way way way bigger than 10 years ago. In that time (correct me if I'm wrong) only few dozens of elite traders would have, for instance, White Queen BBC version. Now, anybody can download it from Kazaa or whatever. So a load of the stuff that the box-sets would include is already owned by, at least, 80% of this forum. And I agree with John, if the boxsets are ever released, people shouldn't expect them to include, for example, Hitman's original version as Fred wrote it (i.e. in keyboards, and no guitar), or a Bo Rhap demo (which I think people would kill for). Instead it would be fullfilled with "common" stuff like BBC tracks, the Hot Space demos, the De Lane Lea sessions, B-sides and some previously officially unreleased stuff (like I guess We're Falling Out). Maybe one or two new things like, I'd imagine, Night Comes Down's trident version or whatever. What was great about Beatles demos was that we could see the progress of the song, for example, Two Of Us, how some ideas were added and some ideas were edited, etc. With Queen very few of those "progresses" can be found because, by one side, there's a number of songs (about half of them I'd say) which were already planned before recorded, so there was no experimentation. Moreover, some of those demos were deleted afterwards to make room for more recordings (tapes were expensive and remember the band was producing itself in terms of money). And from the remaining ones, a lot aren't owned by them. So, if they lost master tapes for the definitive All Dead, for instance, I'm sure lots of demos were lost too. The much awaited box-set would have some very incomplete parts. In the case of, for example Queen (I), there's an alternative version for almost all the songs (counting BBC, De Lane Lea and KYA's retake), but in the case of NOTW, most of the tapes are lost (Spread Your Wings and stuff), so from that one maybe all we would get would be the 1977 BBC session. Which most of us already have. |
| fairydandy 23.10.2004 09:54 |
Can we really not expect Face It Alone, and Assassin amongst the other oft quoted demo's that apparently exist? I have no idea if these exist personally, I am just going by what others say, and by what I read on the net. Surely even the most informed of people here, must expect at least some surprises? I know I am. |
| Rich Tea 23.10.2004 10:27 |
I've followed this pathetic soap opera on this board for the last few days realising just how sad some people who post on here really are. "I've got a bigger collection than you! I'm more important than QP! I know more than anybody else!" Jesus Christ some people would be better off taking their over inflated ego's and sticking them right up their own ARSES! Does it really matter - No I don't think so, its just crap the lot of it! You're Just A Hot air Ballon |
| frank39 23.10.2004 11:38 |
congratulations, John |
| Maz 23.10.2004 12:02 |
fairydandy wrote: Can we really not expect Face It Alone, and Assassin amongst the other oft quoted demo's that apparently exist? I have no idea if these exist personally, I am just going by what others say, and by what I read on the net.I don't think that's what John or anybody is saying. More than likely, the box sets will include some demos or previously unheard of stuff, but it's actual percentage in a new box set might be small. The implication is that the box sets will include material that most serious or semi-serious internet collectors already have. While this is still a great set (having everything like that in CD quality) John is trying to dispell the belief that the box set will include 10 CD full of unreleased demos and gems that we've never heard before. That's the issue of debate. |
| John S Stuart 23.10.2004 12:28 |
Final (Part three) "The bottom line is - nice, but nothing special". Do not pin your hopes on the magical boxsets – as they will only disappoint. Perhaps it is now time for me to confess to being a Queen addict. ("My name is John - and I am a Queenaholic"). I crave a "Queen" boxset. (H*ll, I even bought "Queen Rocks" for that solitary additional remix). I WANT the boxset(s) to be special. I want them to be crammed-filled with rarities like some sticky-bun bursting with jam and lashings of cream - and ofcourse a cherry on top. When it comes right down to it - I am a Stepford, and admit that the "Freddie Mercury: Solo Collection", is a jewel in any official collection. So I hope that my cynicism is not perceived as some sort of petty, childish, brattish behaviour. If reasons ARE needed to justify my criticisms, it is simply that as a loyal, long-standing customer, even I am beginning to see that the service from this company is rapidly in decline. Let's face the truth here: "Queen" by way of some very poor personal, management or corporate decisions, have transformed from the Charles Rolls to the Gerald Ratner of the music industry. In Part 2 of this of this discussion, I mainly focused on the presentation, packaging and the management philosophy behind the Freddie box, and as it is the only example of such work we have from QP, it is the sole yard-stick we own to measure future productions against, and as the Freddie box DID suffer some (avoidable) major flaws, as a fully-subscribed member of the "I paid my money" club, I have a RIGHT to say - nice, but nothing special. Here, I return to the heart of the matter: In Part one, I set out a stall stating that: "Like the “Beatles”, the “Queen” box would cover four main periods (Excluding interviews and live performances), namely: Pre-success, At The BBC, Alternative versions and Unreleased demos". I think I have delivered on all of these except the most interesting and tantalising of all, The unreleased demos. Unreleased demos: Let's face it. This is the real reason most people want these sets in the first place, but like fossil fuels or the ozone layer, unreleased Queen demos are a limited resource. If released, their value is spent, and unfortunately all that we leave behind is an empty cookie jar. But the question which we would all like answered is - "what cookies are in there?" SPOILER ALERT: Amazingly (and this is the disapointing thing) there are NOT that many. Let me repeat - very FEW cookies remain. The "Champions League" of unreleased "Queen" has ALREADY appeared on "Made In Heaven" and the "Freddie Mercury: Solo Collection", but you already knew that. The next tier or "Premiership" of rarities have already escaped. Tracks like "Face It Alone", I Guess We're Falling Out", "My Secret Fantasy", "Robbery" and "Self Made Man", are the BEST of the rest. Why do you think these particular titles were chosen to be delivered at fan club-conventions - because in truth, very few complete tracks or alternatives survive. From the "Championship" a whole host of "bits" (or partial bits) survive. The much touted "Play The Game - Andy Gibb" version and the "Let Me Live - Rod Stewart version" (if they still survive - you can read elsewhere about lost and stolen recordings) are only "bits" of songs. The best that could be done, is to patch (or hybrid) a new version made up from bits of the unreleased sections - stitched into the released version. (For example: "Living On My Own - Hybrid Edit: Early/Later Versions" from the Freddie box). Other famously touted rarities "Africa By Night" or "Assassin" may sound like wonderful elaborate constructions, when in fact they are as "real" |
| John S Stuart 23.10.2004 12:59 |
Postscript: "The bottom line is - nice, but nothing special". Do not pin your hopes on the magical box sets – as they will only disappoint. So why all the fuss - what is the problem? As stated in previous replies QP are a business. There is nothing wrong with business - but there is something woefully wrong with a business which strings out loyal customers like dope-dependant heroine addicts. I am also a Bruce Lee fan, and in my mind Lee made four great movies. (“Big Boss”, “Fists Of Fury”, “Way Of The Dragon” and “Enter The Dragon”). Then came the very long cash –ins. A very, very poor “Game Of Death”. Even poorer movies like “The Green Hornet” which stitched earlier TV appearances together. Other 90-minute movies like “Game Of Death II” and “Fists Of The Unicorn” because they contained very small cameo appearances. Now myriads of documentaries exist claiming previously “unseen footage” and after parting with £19.99, one discovers that the lost footage is no more than a 30-second clip of a silent home movie, recorded over 40 years ago. It is all a big rip-off! The only excuse I can offer for the decline in this product is that the guy died, and therefore has NO control of the thousands of shysters who are trying to cash in on his trademark. Queen on the other hand, should be very much alive, and they should not be stringing us along with the inducement of a very small carrot at the end of a very large pole. The good news is that on that in July 2002, (the 30th anniversary of Lee’s death), the complete unadulterated unedited (and more importantly uncut) “Bruce Lee’s Game Of Death” DVD hit the stores. No shysters, no gimmicks, just 100% product pure and simple, and that’s what I want to see come forth from the loins of QP, NOT legitimised copies of third rate concerts. Finally (and I mean finally), this is why I love this ‘zone. This thread would not be allowed over on other sites, nor would you be allowed to express your honest opinions. You would either be shut down – or moderated – and because I have the luxury of living in a democracy, I must ask why? Am I such a threat to the “establishment” to QP, to GB, that they choose to ignore such points, or that in order to keep me quiet I have to be ridiculed or trivialised? I have my opinions – and you have your – and at least in here (thank you Richard, YV and all the others) we ALL have a right to reply. YOU are the customer. Make your voice heard. Let QP know that you are unhappy with their performance. Ask Brian May the important questions. Point him to this thread and ask him if the box-set will be a box or yet another excuse to release the complete back catalogue, but with the extra bits as bonus tracks? Let them know what YOU want in your box set. (He who pays the piper calls the tune). This is not a revolt – but an appeal before the sets come out to “get it right”, because if they eventually do see the light of day and you feel disappointed – by then it will be too late to say “I told you so - that the bottom line is - nice, but nothing special". |
| Sebastian 23.10.2004 13:53 |
Yeah, we can tell Brian, but he's very busy right now looking for aliens in digital photos |
| wstüssyb 23.10.2004 14:26 |
The much touted "Play The Game - Andy Gibb" version and the "Let Me Live - Rod Stewart version" (if they still survive - you can read elsewhere about lost and stolen recordings /drool 2 tracks I have long wanted... |
| AlexRocks 23.10.2004 15:10 |
For one I don't understand why you think it is all about you? Why is it all about the VERY small handful of people who supposedly have this stuff already? Queen are a POP group. Popular music is meant to be sold to the masses. Not coniving little wenches whose golden laced diaper needs changing. This is why things are not thrown out all at once and are marketed stragically to sell to their maximum. No one wants to support someone who wants to sell just a bit. Only people in sane minds want to sell to the maximum. Geeze. This is also why it is a good thing the same old stuff is sold in updated ways so there will still be fan support and interest new and old from wherever that still buys the same old stuff. FOR GOD SAKES DON'T BUY THIS STUFF SO MANY TIMES IF IT HURTS SO MUCH! Gregg has already made it clear that THERE WILL BE NO ISSUE OF THE ORIGINAL L.P.S IN THE BOX SETS!!! When he said it would follow a format like the Mercury box set he already explained himself on that too!! He just meant in that it would include the rare, unreleased, alternative versions, demos, outtakes, etc., etc. like the box set! I consider it a good thing that the Mercury box set was the way it was at the time as it not only gave us a newly remastered set of the original solo l.p.s but it also did get people all over the world to purchase and listen to material/releases that maybe they wouldn't have in the first place. I know as I was one. As I have already said the concern I have is the box sets being too big with whatever they do have so that they sell sell enough to stay on the market. As it is the Mercury one was out of print within a year of its release from what I can tell. They can always release a more proper Mercury box set in the future as well! |
| John S Stuart 23.10.2004 15:16 |
Alex: You miss the point. It is NOT about me at all. It is about YOU, and millions like you! |
| Rich Tea 23.10.2004 15:38 |
No John it is about you! I expect as I think Alex tried to explain the millions will only be interested in completed songs not un finished half baked demo's. They will only be of interest to the ardent collector. I'm not that arsed that I haven't got the acetate of Freddie farting in the middle of See What A Fool' recorded live in Brian's Mum's toilet. I'm afraid the "millions" are not that anul about it! |
| AlexRocks 23.10.2004 15:45 |
ACTUALLY! LOL! I think the public might be interested in the good demos just not, um, the ones, you are talking about. That was my point. It seems John is the one saying they are not worth the effort of being done the way they MIGHT. Again nothing has been decided. If I understand correctly there is enough material to make the catelog of studio releases (and BBC material) into not only full discs but into two c.d. sets AND three box sets that would have eight c.d.s each. Sounds grand to me. I just hope all of this sells well enough to stay in print. Of course we all have to be careful what to expect as Gregg has supposedly gotten rather perturbed at some of the things people are expecting by saying that not one thing is set in stone yet. Things will be worked out some time later. I think in 2011 when it will be the fortieth anniversary of Queen would be a good time to release the box sets one at a time every five years so they will each have time to sell before the next one hits the shelves. I also would like to think the catelog would be redone, re-released, remastered, and made into double c.d. sets like Brian mentioned earlier this year perhaps when there is a reunion tour in 2006...and I do think a reunion tour should be done before new songs are recorded and unfinished ones with Freddie are released. Perhaps a new live release covering later material that did not get a tour and the earlier material rarely if ever performed live with some new material as well. I at least think that if the catelog is made into double c.d. sets that it should be done before any of the box sets are released so that they will have all of the updated information... |
| Rich Tea 23.10.2004 16:19 |
I'm sure we all have opinions on what will and won't be included. I'm sure we all would like to see different things and some of us won't bother cause our personnal collections are so superior to that of QP! I think I will wait and see what actually gets released before passing judgement. Too many people are expressing opinions about something they no nothing at all about although they would like people to think they are an authority. All I've read over the last few days has in the main been egotistical bullshit! |
| Penis - Vagina 23.10.2004 16:46 |
This is why my personal opinion of what would be best, and my wish is as follows: Another re-issue of the original albums with bonus tracks (continuing onto a 2nd disc if necessary). I realize this is controversial since many fans have expressed disgust at the idea of purchasing the same title multiple times with the promise of either improved sound or extras, but if there is indeed a shortage of interesting material then this might be a more cost-effective way of packaging the stuff. Or a unique alternative might be a separate single-disc collection of material related to each album, ie; "The Hot Space Sessions", "The Innuendo Sessions" if enough material was available for each. I say this only because of the way the Freddie box was put together. It seems a bit disjointed to me.. I would rather see a single disc for each than a big box with 'theme' discs. Or if necessary, special mini-boxes such as a B-side collection, demos collection, instrumentals (what already exists commercially amounts to less than 3 discs worth.. add a few more we haven't heard and collect them all in one place, properly mastered and restored for 'instrumental' use rather than 'karaoke'. "The Instrumental Works" sounds right. I've already made a 3 disc version myself. I must confess that I'm more into the idea of getting previously released stuff in CD quality and in one place than hearing a lot of stuff that wasn't intended to be released.. though that will be interesting as well. My heart certainly isn't broken by anything I've read here. |
| Saint Jiub 23.10.2004 16:46 |
"Queen on the other hand, should be very much alive, and they should not be stringing us along with the inducement of a very small carrot at the end of a very large pole." LOL John - Sad but true. Mostly nothing but empty promises and profiteering. No respect for queen's core customers. How much does a download cost for QP certainly less than one tenth of of the 5 pounds they are charging. I am changing my username back to Rip Van Winkle as it as this time has never been more appropriate. Wake me up when the box sets come -even though they will be packaged to maximize profit at the expense of quality. |
| Lester Burnham 23.10.2004 17:18 |
I think they should forego any kind of box set and instead issue double-disc packages of Queen rarities, a la the Beatles anthologies. It would be more cost-effective, and it would give them a chance to put on alternate takes and rare stuff in addition to the more known unreleased stuff. It seems like it'll be a snowball's chance in hell when they release everything that Queen ever did in the studio, so why not just start by doing the above? |
| John S Stuart 23.10.2004 17:40 |
Here's a relevant post from "Kes" a Queen-on-line moderator: link "I like Greg, and I like the work he's doing archiving the stuff. Poor guy categorically makes those statements about the band not reissuing the original albums, with the best of intentions, and then bloody Toshiba release this new set of remastered mini-albums. At least we can be pretty sure that he's sure they won't be in the boxsets". There it is in black and white. Fulfillment of a previous prophecy I made about 9-12 months ago - and I had the same response then - as I do now. It's not that I want to say "I told you so", it is because there is a difference between "Keeping the customer satisfied" and "bleeding the poor b*stards dry". Please read my FULL mails. Especially the bit about "My name is John - I am a Queenaholic", and as I have also tried to say over and over, this is YOUR/their only chance to get it right - your solitary chance to make a difference. What is so very wrong with that? Is it wrong to "Hate something, change something, make something better?" Some leopards will never change their spots. |
| Rich Tea 23.10.2004 17:48 |
I think everybody has got the message now! Why don't you take a breath and rest a while. It is obvious you are jealous of the job GB has (arn't we all) and feel you could do a far better job. If this post was a job interview I would say apart from slagging your potential employer you did ok. However you don't have the job and it sounds as if you never will so why don't you accept it and get on with your life? Hey DEAL WITH IT!!! |
| Lester Burnham 23.10.2004 17:52 |
Actually, you twit, I think it's fairly obvious that John doesn't want the job - in fact, he has stated as such, and that he not only wasn't offered the job, that he also wouldn't accept it if it was offered. Get your facts straight before you cause trouble. I, personally, am not envious of Greg, even though he was put in a very rare and interesting position. It would be interesting to try, but I can imagine it's also incredibly tedious. So, good for Greg for doing what he wants to do, but I have much better things to do with my time than what he's doing. |
| The Real Wizard 23.10.2004 18:01 |
So there are NO demos in existence from Queen II, SHA, ANATO, ADATR, NOTW, Jazz, etc? Just those same few we've already heard? I highly doubt that. |
| Rich Tea 23.10.2004 18:02 |
"Twit" ha ha - I think John is in denial, if he's not interested why drone on and on and on!! Ask yourself why he is pointing out how things could be so much better using his vision of things" Oh its for the people - BOLLOCKS He might not be able to do the job because of other committments but hey he sure as hell is jealous! But opinions are like arseholes we all have one!! |
| John S Stuart 23.10.2004 18:05 |
Rich Tea: OK - I am jealous of Greg = Y A W N ! = As Fatty has already pointed out: (paraphrased) -"When Queen are playing a summer season at Butlin's...!" Also: I "Celebrate" your ability to disagree, that's what makes a democracy - democratic. "I may not agree with what you say - but I defend your right to say it". As for my vision - that is incorrect, it is NOT my vision at all but the vision of Sir Paul McCartney, and if you take time to read the thread properly, you will see that I have a great admiration for the way the "Beatles" work, and as they have set the standard for all subsequent bands - I fail to see why "Queen" can not meet the challange. Some of the guys over at QOL agree with that... link Stayin_Power: "I guess unreleased Queen material is like oil - it's a limited resource, and one day it will run out." Kes Titan's Troubadour: "Probably The Beatles anthology sets were the benchmark for how artists should release their non-master archives". |
| Rich Tea 23.10.2004 18:10 |
Your eagerness to reply confirms my suspicions! Thank You How do you know they can not meet the challenge? You don't and I think thats what you are finding hard to accept! Oh what has Butlins got to do with it all??? |
| AlexRocks 23.10.2004 18:48 |
Let me say again that Gregg has said that nothing has been decided for sure with the boxsets. With that said Brian has already said that there is enough material to make the catelog into double albums PLUS three eight c.d. boxsets. That means that there is enough of whatever material they release and there is not only nothing wrong with them being "profiteers" as they were so accused in another post but that is what they are suppose to do. It makes no sense for someone who is in the business of selling to not do what is best to make money. For those of you who can't figure it out that is what Queen did the first twenty five years before some of you stole their copyrighted product via the internet or bootleggers... |
| The Real Wizard 23.10.2004 18:54 |
Why is my question being ignored? Please tell us flat out, John. |
| Mr Mercury 23.10.2004 19:28 |
Rich Tea wrote: Oh what has Butlins got to do with it all???As john already stated he was paraphrasing what Fatty said in this thread (go to page 3) link |
| John S Stuart 23.10.2004 19:41 |
SirGH; "So there are NO demos in existence from Queen II, SHA, ANATO, ADATR, NOTW, Jazz, etc? Just those same few we've already heard? I highly doubt that". I am sorry - I thought that was a statement - not a question. (That was a genuine mistake - so please do not read into my avoidance anything other than that). As to the answer. Ofcourse there a demos from that peroid, and ofcourse some have escaped, but as you can see, I am not willing to post a fuller answer here, because I do not want to pre-empt any future discusions - simply because, I am working through each album chronologically. I have already posted all I know about "Queen". When I get time - I will then start a new thread on the "Queen II" album - and so on. (Queen II should be ready either tomorrow or Monday - and I do not think that I can write such large posts more than one per week). This is what most have requested for, and to be honest I am far too busy to deal with such a gigantic task any other way. All I can ask is that you wait, and that I will answer all your questions in the next few weeks. I can't be any fairer than that. |
| Rich Tea 23.10.2004 19:41 |
Yea but I still don't get it? Fatty was being his normal obnoxious self and if I might say a little stupid (as usual) Brian and Roger are multi millionaires so playing Butlins is a none starter. personnally I think its a shame because the British Holiday Industry and Butlins in particular could do with a massive shot in the arm and this would be brilliant. Imagine going on holiday and being able to see Queen! Anyway I digress I still don't see what this has got to do with anything! All these people saying we are not jealous of GB? Why say anything it just convinces me that I'm right they are jealous! |
| Serry... 23.10.2004 19:45 |
Now is my turn to add something :-) The opinion of fan from Eastern Europe. Guys, fans over here in most cases even can't find mp3s of some Queen famous demos and most of CD bootlegs which are trade is home-made by more lucky Queen fans, so of course for such fans (I mean real fans, not 'the Greatest Hits Of Any Famous Artist' fans) the FM solo box set and Queen's one would be very welcome. I've bought my FM Set and for all these years have seen another one in free trade just for one time! That's sad reality! So I can agree with Rich Tea when he says that some of you have luck to hear all those Queen rare tracks in CD quality, but we're not and we're interesting in 'Robbery' as well as 'See What A Fool I've Been' BBC version, 'cause I wanna hear it not on bootleg, though I have it! I have 'The Miracle' CD, but when Hollywood Records released their The Miracle with Scandal 12" and I Want It All mistake - I bought it and had not regrets. So the same goes with Freddie's collection - no any regrets, though I have already had Hold On, Love is a hero (different to box set version actually) etc. and all Freddie's albums. That's a music market. It's something what they have to do. And football guys too - they had to bring some attention to football in your country and maybe decide some problems and they did it and no matter what we thinks of it. Sad, but true. I agree with you about some things, but you know - if they'd release all Freddie's pre-Queen performances would it bring prizes and new audience to them? I ain't sure. It's interesting, it's collectable, but not for anyone. And Brian and QP and GB can't think just about die-heart Queen fans. I'd like to see Moscow's afterparty very much and WWRY too, 'cause I know it was my only one chance to see Brian and Roger playing live in Russia, but I couldn't because tickets' price was about 1000 of USD, do you think it was an okay situation for non-VIP Queen fans? But what could we do? What Brian could did? Well, but anyway I see your position and agree at some points. |
| The Real Wizard 24.10.2004 01:24 |
John S Stuart wrote: I am sorry - I thought that was a statement - not a question. (That was a genuine mistake - so please do not read into my avoidance anything other than that).No prob! We all make mistakes. All I can ask is that you wait, and that I will answer all your questions in the next few weeks. I can't be any fairer than that.Definitely fair. I shall be patient. |
| Shane Jazz 24.10.2004 03:00 |
I just want to ask John if he has heard Face It Alone? Out of all the late 80's/early 90's demos, this one has been seemingly heard by the fewest number of Queen fans....I am definitely looking forward to his Queen II rundown..Absolutely fascinating, vital stuff, and we appreciate it.... |
| isolar2 24.10.2004 08:37 |
John S Stuart wrote: Similarly, when the "Beatles" released their Anthology trilogy of double CD sets, NONE of the massive 152 tracks were previously released, and very few proved to be muliple variations of the same track. Add to this - that no repeat purchase of back catalogue product was necessary - and that the set was released at a very affordable c£25.00 over a six month period (that's one set every two months), one can begin to see how the "Beatles" worked with their fans, rather than foist unwanted products upon them, and at the same alient poorer residents of the "Beatles" community.Also off-topic: for those of you interested in a really magnificent Beatles Anthology: there's a 43 disc box out on the market called "Rare Notes - Studio Recordings" and a 20+ disc box called "Rare Live Notes". The studio box contains a 300+ page booklet with details on all individual tracks. All tracks were taken from the best quality sources, being from tape, CD, acetate or whatever. Both box sets were "produced" by a US Beatles fanclub. Anyway, for hose who are interested drop me an email... isolar2(at)web.de |
| John S Stuart 24.10.2004 09:29 |
ThomasQuinn: link |
| Oberon62AU 24.10.2004 13:11 |
John S Stuart wrote: "I like Greg, and I like the work he's doing archiving the stuff. Poor guy categorically makes those statements about the band not reissuing the original albums, with the best of intentions, and then bloody Toshiba release this new set of remastered mini-albums. At least we can be pretty sure that he's sure they won't be in the boxsets".I dont know if I missed something here or not... but Greg did say that they wouldnt be included in the boxsets NOT that they would never be reissued at all ever. Thats certainly how I read it. I realise there is some grey area from one statement, but I think taken in the context of the whole statement its not realistic to assume he meant that Queen's catalogue would never be reissued independently of the box sets. Steve |
| deleted user 24.10.2004 13:36 |
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| John S Stuart 24.10.2004 15:07 |
Oberon62AU/Phillip. I think you missed my point. I quoted: "I like Greg...Poor guy categorically makes those statements about the band not reissuing the original albums, with the best of intentions, and then bloody Toshiba release this new set of remastered mini-albums". (ie Before the boxsets). My point was: "Greg categorically state(s)... not reissuing the original albums" BUT "Toshiba release this new set..." (regardless) In otherwords: Greg was wrong. (As this set WAS yet ANOTHER reissue). It was NOT his fault ("with the best of intentions" - tells me that), so "official sources" assured this would NOT happen - but it DID! So what does this tell us about "Official Sources". On the other hand, I am an "unofficial source" - but my prediction that a "new" back-catalogue would be issued was correct. (That does not not imply any competition or personal slurs). But it does mean that official sources can "categorically state..." - "NO new re-issued CDs for boxset" just now - and change their minds six months down the line. The only thing we CAN believe from QP at the present is (to quote the Ruttles) "All You Need Is Cash". |
| Adam Baboolal 24.10.2004 16:13 |
"But it does mean that official sources can 'categorically state...' - 'NO new re-issued CDs for boxset' just now - and change their minds six months down the line." Well, it could mean that if that's what you want to think. But in my view the Toshiba Japan section of QP are always a loose cannon. They've had more remasters than the rest of the world. Now, who knows why that is? The UK/US have had mistakes, but they take the biscuit! It was just as well that Justin was drafted to fix the mistakes made with the previous 1998 Japan remasters. And so the 2001 remasters came about. But why did these take 3 years to pop up in the UK/US? Peace, Adam. |
| Benn 24.10.2004 18:05 |
As for "pointing Brian to this thread"...... He's got no interest in it at all - he'd rather fu*k about with a few wannabe stage stars and play as a session guitarist in a crap musical that concern himself with the day-to-day concerns of the people keeping him in that nice big Surrey mansion. I asked Brian about the Archive at the Albert Hall recently and he just looked blankly back and said something like "It's hopefully being dealt with". Absolutely no idea. |
| Spud 24.10.2004 18:17 |
Not particuarly interested but I think you might find that Brian fucking around with wannabees and the musical are also contributing rather nicely to his mansion!!! |
| Serry... 25.10.2004 06:55 |
I think Brian has some more deals than just sit and find something rare in archives just for your pleasure! I preffer him to record something than disappeared somewhere like Mr.Deacon! |
| Benn 25.10.2004 07:51 |
Sherry, re: > I preffer him to record something than disappeared somewhere like Mr.Deacon! As would I, but that's not going to happen whilst he's tinkering around with WWRY - he's far too busy racking up the air-miles for that. |
| Serry... 25.10.2004 10:19 |
Ok, but I am not Sherry that's Serry. And you know - Roger is VERY tired of all this WWRY fuss, as he told it when he was in Russia. And he really looked tired, so maybe they'd stop soon :) |
| AlexRocks 27.10.2004 20:29 |
I think the plan will not change in NOT including the albums (yet again) for the anthology box sets. The reason is that my understanding is that they have so much material that they need all of the disc space that they can get! That's nothing but wonderful news! |
| AlexRocks 27.10.2004 20:32 |
I think the plan will not change in NOT including the albums (yet again) for the anthology box sets. The reason is that my understanding is that they have so much material that they need all of the disc space that they can get! That's nothing but wonderful news! |