| jasen101 08.09.2004 19:50 |
Hmmmmm, just watching CNN earlier and they were blabing about how over 1000 US soldiers and marines have died in Iraq since the US led invasion. Funny how when I changed the channel to CBC I saw that their top headline was over 11,000 Iraqi civilians and militans have died since the US has invaded Iraq. 11 fucking thousand! And the American's can't even give that a headline? I guess only american citizens are the important ones. This is the kind of message you get when you watch American TV. |
| MayFan 08.09.2004 20:00 |
That's funny....last time I checked, Canada was in America too |
| jasen101 08.09.2004 20:01 |
yeah well you're an idiot |
| MayFan 08.09.2004 20:04 |
jasen101 wrote: yeah well you're an idiotLOL That's the best, dude!! (I love this place) |
| Music Man 08.09.2004 20:19 |
Why don't you just cry about it? Do you lose jobs proportionally to the amount of people who die in Iraq or something? |
| deleted user 08.09.2004 21:43 |
DUDE i heard that Osama Bin Laden or whoever attacked Sweden today... >.< my friend roni lives there dammit! >.< |
| jasen101 08.09.2004 22:53 |
fuck you as usual Music Man. You stupid pig. |
| joeyjojo 08.09.2004 23:03 |
Why are you here Jasen? Serious question. You post a comment, then start spewing vulgarities at everyone. What is the point of that? |
| Saint Jiub 08.09.2004 23:35 |
Jasen is here to make ultra-conservatives look good. He even makes Alan Keynes look sane. |
| MayFan 08.09.2004 23:57 |
I agree! He makes water look dry and sand look refreshing! He distinguishes not between the butterfly and the bee, for they are both pests worthy of exterminating! Somewhere, there is an empty "village idiot" house with his name on the mailbox! |
| jasen101 09.09.2004 00:41 |
Bullwinkle, do me a favour honey...go cut your mullet, brush your one tooth real good, learn some fancy words, and then run for governor of kentucky...or wherever the fuck your trailer is from. haha me make ultra conservatives look good? Please...we all know they've got Bush to do that. I'm gonna say what I feel like saying...I don't care what you think of it! Too bad you bunch of bush pigs can't even address the issue of so many innocent people being murdered. Why? Because, you know your beloved leader has done the wrong thing and you're necks are all a little to red to admit it. |
| jasen101 09.09.2004 00:50 |
Fuck, Am I the only person here just Horrified that over 11,000 people have died for american propaganda? Not to mention the 1,003 American service men! I say vulgar things...because I am a nasty ho...but to ignore the issue of this topic is REALLY DISGUSTING. |
| The Real Wizard 09.09.2004 02:32 |
MayFan wrote: That's funny....last time I checked, Canada was in America tooWhen the word "American" is used, it refers to the USA, not the continent as a whole. I am very proud to say my country has little to no similiarity to the current political views of Bush and co. jasen101 wrote: Fuck, Am I the only person here just Horrified that over 11,000 people have died for american propaganda? Not to mention the 1,003 American service men! I say vulgar things...because I am a nasty ho...but to ignore the issue of this topic is REALLY DISGUSTING.Agreed. Too many people are beyond ignorant, and are far too blind to see what is wrong. You are 100% correct about the differences between US and Canadian media. Here on CBC we get neutral news, and Fox/CNN give US-friendly news. Folks, just because Jasen is a self-proclaimed nasty ho (his words, not mine) doesn't mean he is blind to what's going on in the world. OUR world. Everyone's world. Eyes were made to be open, and brains were made to be used. I'm with ya, man. The only hope for the US (and a huge portion of the rest of the world) is that the voter turnout is higher than ever, and that it brings new voters who can think for themselves, free of religious and political manipulation, and therefore vote the correct way. I bet there aren't too many republicans in the US who aren't motivated by Christian fundamentalism and/or governmental/media scare tactics. The difference between the right and left: The left wants everyone to be happy. The right wants the right to be happy. |
| Flashman 09.09.2004 03:11 |
For someone who likes nothing more than to preach your anti-war spew, jasen101, you are pretty much the most intolerant person on this board. You are also its biggest knacker. |
| willem-jan 8923 09.09.2004 03:20 |
The left wants everyone to be happy. The right wants the right to be happy.They have left in the US as well? :o I thought it was either right or conservative! |
| joeyjojo 09.09.2004 08:43 |
"Too bad you bunch of bush pigs can't even address the issue of so many innocent people being murdered. Why?" What issue? You come in here blurting out a statement. Then you start spewing ad-hominem attacks and vulgarities. If you want to debate and discuss issues, then pick up some communication skills. |
| Mr.Jingles 09.09.2004 08:52 |
Will there ever be a day when republicans start loving America more than they love money and power? Of course, they conservatives have always disguised their greed with patriotism by blindfolding the American public with an American flag. I don't like democrats and politicians in general that much, but republicans just plain disgust me. |
| Lisser 09.09.2004 10:00 |
Hi Jasen, I live in America and I am very upset at every life that is lost, in every country, and in every situation. That being war, car accident, terminal illness, etc. I didn't take that headline like you did though. When I saw the headline I knew that there were many more lives taken that weren't American. I just took it as a news report that was highlighting the lives that were taken that were American bc it was on American TV. I assume now though that the headline was shown in other countries too? I can't speak for other Americans but I am not able to see the headline news of other countries. I only get American TV channels that I am aware of. I hope this doesn't make you think that I am being "American" and only thinking of our headlines and only caring about my country, bc that is not how I feel at all. But that is what I see, what our news people put on our TV. I haven't been watching much news lately though. I almost am to the point where I can't even stomach anymore. I can tell you that I am aware that many, many lives have been lost in this war. I am also aware that the majority of lives that have been taken have not been American, but to me I'm not concerned over who has lost the most lives. I am most concerned with any lives being taken. I am sorry for the losses but I choose not to get angry over it. Anger doesn't do any good and I think this war proves that even more, anger makes it worse. I just try and do what I can to treat the people I come in contact with everyday as I want to be treated. I was a little disappointed at your Kentucky remark though. I happen to live in Kentucky and yes our State is not the most perfect place to live in the world, but I make the most of it. Also the trailor comment...Although I do not live in one, I have a lot of friends that live in trailors. They are pretty ok people. I don't think its where you live that matters, I think its what is in your heart. I have never chosen my friends on what type of housing they live in or what type of clothes they wear. So if you live in America, Russia, Iraq, Canada, or where ever, it doesn't mean that you are a useless piece of shit just bc of your geographical location or your address. What makes you a useless piece of shit is if you treat others like shit. Atleast that's what my definition of an asshole is. I could be wrong though. I still think you are a hottie though. :) |
| MayFan 09.09.2004 12:17 |
I have a couple of questions....what about the hundreds of people that died in the twin towers incident? What about the children in Russia that died? CHILDREN!!! Children that were in school where they should be....why are those lives not counted when we are counting Iraqi's?? And what about the number of Iraqi's that were killed by Sadam's own hand?!?!? Do they not count? Men and women killed while their family members are made (forced) to watch. Living human beings put through human shredders to make an example of Sadam's oppression. It's not a matter of standing behind Bush or Kerry or who ever. It's about standing up for what's right. Yes, I live in the United States of America and, yes, we are the ones making a stand in this and taking the flak. But I'll guarentee you one thing, if Toronto or Montreal had been the one to sustain the casualties that New York did, the USA would be the first there to help out!! This is about terrorism! Not Bush! Not the US of A! And it will never be solved until people relise that! So if you are going to make a statement, get all the facts before you go blabbering and slobbering all over yourself. Ya know, my father has a saying that I absolutely love....."Better to let people think your an idiot then opening your mouth and proving them right." And buddy, you opened your mouth...... |
| MetzgerR 09.09.2004 12:36 |
I agree with Lisser and MayFan...Does nobody care that the Iraqi people were more than just oppressed before this war was begun? People were shoved through shredders feet first - so they would be alive for part of it, and able to feel all the more pain! Athletes who didn't win competitions were put through excruciating tortures, including having the bottoms of their feet beaten until it broke several bones in their feet. So many people were killed for no reason at all! But all anyone ever talks about is how greedy the conservatives were in forcing the United States to start this war. It seems to me that maybe those who say America should've stayed out of Iraq to begin with are the heartless ones; didn't they care about what people had to endure there? Regardless of whether we agree with what happened before, it's over and done with - there's no way we can change it. But going and mindlessly insulting everyone who disagrees with you is going to do absolutely nothing to improve or change what is happening now. And using the deaths of 11,000 innocents to spew vulgarities as those who committed no crime, seems to me, to be a very cold and heartless response to their plight. Finally, please don't make any more comments about trailers, etc. Though I'm from Florida, and not Kentucky, the great majority of my friends, actually, live in trailers and such. And it's because of comments like the one you made that they're embarrassed to have people over. So again, it looks to me as though you are the one who is unconcerned for others, and doesn't care about the consequences of your words and actions. Please take the time to think about what you're saying! Gomen - again - for getting on my soapbox...I didn't mean to sound preachy or whatever... Ja ne! |
| joeyjojo 09.09.2004 13:32 |
"why are those lives not counted when we are counting Iraqi's??" Why would you count foreign, unrelated terrorist victims in a Iraqi War casualty numbers? "And what about the number of Iraqi's that were killed by Sadam's own hand?!?!? Do they not count?" Sure they count. But we're talking about the war, not Saddams rule. Don't justify one death with another. " It's about standing up for what's right. " Absolutely. The debate is whether or not we, as in the 'US' were 'right' in how we handled this entire Iraq situation. " This is about terrorism! Not Bush!" Going to war with a country does nothing to stop terrorism. You can't fight terrorism with wars. In many ways, you feed terrorism with wars. *THAT* is the crux of the issue. The bush administration has half the population here believing that the Iraq war is somehow a war on Terrorism. It is not. It can't be. That's not how terrorism works. It defies basic 'art of war' fundamentals (know thy enemy). The rest of the world seems to be taking a much more pragmatic and reasoned view of the entire situation. They're seeing it full grey scale (if not full color). While many US citizens are still seeing this as a purely black and white issue. This is GREAT for the Bush administration, as it's so much easier to market 'product' to an audience who simplifies issues down to pure black or pure white. |
| MayFan 09.09.2004 14:26 |
I am not suggesting that war is a cure all or that I believe in "war". What I am stating is that if we sit on our arses and do nothing about it, nothing will change. I would love to hear an alternative solution. I have a personal friend fighting in Iraq as we speak. There is nothing I would like more than to have him home. But what would you suggest?? Let's just let Sadam and anyone else for that matter who can continue to oppress and kill do so. We'll just sit here and shake our finger at him..."Now, now...play nice." "That's not the way things should be done." I don't always agree with our country and how it is run. I still can't understand why the government can't find Osama, but can find a couple of pot plants hidden way out in the middle of nowhere on my neighbors land! But the bottom line on this thread was that the US was being slandered for what we have done yet nothing is mentioned of the bigger picture here. We didn't just look around and say, "Hhmm...let's go kick their ass." This is a reaction to things that should not go on. If that sounds black and white, I'm sorry. I realize that there is alot of grey area in anything of this type of matter. But, again, what else is being suggested to deal with these tyrants? |
| deleted user 09.09.2004 14:42 |
joeyjojo I couldn't agree more. The Bush campain SWORE on or after 9-11 that they would not use this for political gain. I guess they forgot about that. |
| Music Man 09.09.2004 15:39 |
MayFan had a couple of really great posts in this thread that I believe are very worth reading if you haven't. Someone once said, the left wants everyone to be happy and the right wants the right to be happy. That is untrue, the left wants the left to be happy and the right wants the right to be happy. It's pretty simple...two adverse sides fighting a battle won by a narrow margin, but to the victor go all the spoils until the next election. Here's the thing. I really do care that all those people died. I feel it. But I can't stand it when all people can do is complain about something. You should only complain about things that (a) affect you or (b) you can affect. Let's see, you would belong under the category "(c) I'm a little bitch who has nothing to do but bitch all day about America. Why, I'll just throw in a little ignorance and racism as an added bonus." Debates, however, I welcome with open arms. What you aren't doing is debating, jasen101. You are just bitching about something you are not willing to do anything about, backing it up with about zero points, an unmeasurably low amount of logic, and a complete lack of intellectual reasoning. "The world is a tragedy to those who feel, but a comedy to those who think." |
| the oppositionist 09.09.2004 17:00 |
Jasen, yes people are upset that 11000 people have died. Any loss of life has to be a horrifying thing in a day and age when we could be stopping it all. But at the end of the day, hussein had to go down. He was an incredibly evil man- it was wayyyy time to get him. If we had left hitler to it, look what he would have done. Sometimes your point is good, its just the way you insult people for not agreeing with you totally. I agree with lisser- shame cos you are fit! |
| Lisser 09.09.2004 17:33 |
I am fit? Like physically fit? I don't think that means the same thing for me as it does you. I dunno what you mean by that oppo. lol |
| MayFan 09.09.2004 18:20 |
lol lisser...I was wondering the same thing! Is that pic in your profile you in the hospital??? ....thanks Music Man (giving points to Music Man in my book) =) I have another question...anyone ever hear of a band called "Queen"? Sort of an obscure band from the 70's I think from England..... =) |
| Music Man 09.09.2004 18:52 |
Who are the Queens? |
| Lisser 09.09.2004 19:29 |
yes I am in the hospital in that pic. I was having a baby!! yeaa aren't you glad you asked!! ;) |
| MayFan 09.09.2004 20:29 |
Hey that's cool =) That's what hospitals are for. |
| joeyjojo 09.09.2004 21:12 |
Mayfan: You're falling right into Bush's reelection campaign line of thought which is: Saddam was a very very evil man THEREFORE Everything Bush has done is justified. The right sees that. They're willing to forgive several of Bush Admin wrongs based on that justification. Other folks aren't making that same connection. They see: Saddam was a very very evil man THEREFORE that may very well be validation to go to war with Iraq BUT THAT DOES *NOT* JUSTIFY - Bush acting unilaterally - Bush using 9/11 as an excuse for the Iraq war - Bush calling Iraq a war on terrorism - Bush not following through with the mess in Afghanistan - Bush sending the US into record debt - Bush going into a premeditated war WITHOUT an exit strategy - Cheney's company getting exclusive rights to all contracts - Bush using faulty/invalid evidence to justify the war - Bush, a military deserter, using the war to set himself up as a 'war president' It's not the war, per-se, people are against. It's HOW and WHY and the MOTIVATIONS behind the war that everyone is against. This was not a war due to an attack. This was the united states invading a soverign country. YES, the leader was evil. That does NOT change the fact that we invaded a country unprovoked. |
| MayFan 09.09.2004 21:29 |
So what you're say, joey, is that if you are walking down the street and you see someone in an alley about to be murdered, you will turn your head and do nothing because the murderer owns the alley and is not provoking you?? Again, I'm not saying Bush is pure and god-like. He is a typical political figure. It doesn't matter who is in office, they will always be chastised. But there is more to this than bureaucratic bullshit in my opinion. I personally do not feel that these things that are happening in this world should go unnoticed and ignored. What if Abraham Lincoln turned his head? There was alot more going on than old Abe standing on the soap box preaching "free the slaves!" BUT, it was what freed the slaves. Sometimes you need to focus on the good points instead of the bad ones all the time. Hopefully, and I mean hopefully, some of these crazies in the world will start thinking twice before they go and kill our friends and families. And the sadest thing about all of this is that these terrorist proclaim it all in the name of God! And then we all wonder where God is when we need him..... |
| Music Man 09.09.2004 21:31 |
Remind me to say something later. I'm really tired now and I think I'll retire. |
| joeyjojo 09.09.2004 22:29 |
"So what you're say, joey, is that if you are walking down the street and you see someone in an alley about to be murdered, you will turn your head and do nothing because the murderer owns the alley and is not provoking you??" No. I am not saying that at all. |
| joeyjojo 09.09.2004 22:35 |
"I personally do not feel that these things that are happening in this world should go unnoticed and ignored." I don't either. That is an entirely different issue, though. Again, Bush is happy when people mix these topics together. It's important to keep them seperate. "Sometimes you need to focus on the good points instead of the bad ones all the time." I can easily focus on the good point that Saddam is no longer in Iraq. That still doesn't change all the bad point regarding this debacle. "Hopefully, and I mean hopefully, some of these crazies in the world will start thinking twice before they go and kill our friends and families." That's not how terrorists work, MusicMan. Terrorists are not rational entities. You can't fight a war on terrorism. And let's not forget some of Osama's reasons for his acts...the fact that the US maintains a large presense in the Middle east. The very act of us invading Iraq is in many ways more fodder for the terrorist recruiters. "And the sadest thing about all of this is that these terrorist proclaim it all in the name of God! And then we all wonder where God is when we need him....." And bush thinks God is on his side as well. Mixing religion and politics is rarely a good thing for either side. ;o) |
| MayFan 09.09.2004 22:44 |
Look....joey...my man... I'm not here to argue with you...and I say that very sincerely. I do understand where you are coming from with alot of the points you are making and I agree completely with alot of it. I just get very fired up when it comes to the desensitivity and the devaluation of human life and the spirit of humanity. First off, the person responsible for this thread in the first place apparently has no humanitarian spirit in him which a) is very sad and b) pisses me off that he is trying to infect the rest of us. Secondly, I'm become infuriated when people commit evil in the name of God. To me, this isn't about Iraqis or Muslums or whatever race or creed or nationality. Its about sick fucking people. Period. And this world is becoming more infected everyday with this scum. There are days I hate the fact that I brought babies into this world to have to deal with this. Anybody have "The Works"?? I'll bet you do...and I quote.."Is This The World We Created..?" And with that, I hope I made my point. I'm not here to say you are all wrong. Just to voice my opinion and what I believe in. God did not make us to be hateful. We have just forgotten everything else. |
| joeyjojo 09.09.2004 23:13 |
"Secondly, I'm become infuriated when people commit evil in the name of God." I don't disagree with you, MM. That seems to be the exact problem with Saddam, Osama, and G.W. ;o) To be fair, I don't believe any of them actually BELIEVE they are on God's side, they just know it helps uninformed masses go along with their plan. As for the original poster, I think we both agree that he's not realy the 'debating' type. ;o) |
| The Real Wizard 10.09.2004 01:32 |
joeyjojo wrote: To be fair, I don't believe any of them actually BELIEVE they are on God's side, they just know it helps uninformed masses go along with their plan.I generally agree with everything you've said to this point, joeyjojo... except for this one I've quoted. The majority of the US right definitely believes God is on their side. It's called ethnocentric belief. Christian fundamentalists are usually a mix of egocentric (my personal salvation, and screw everyone else) and ethnocentric (God is on my country's side, and screw everyone else). Simple language, but that's pretty much the gist of it. |
| joeyjojo 10.09.2004 09:06 |
"The majority of the US right definitely believes God is on their side." I don't know if it's truly a majority, but I do agree with you. A LOT do. My point was that I don't believe G.W. truly believes it. He's only in it for the power. Or perhaps he's simply convinced himself of it by now. What I've read about Saddam is similiar. Saddam is evil for one reason, it gives him power (which isn't unlike a lot of tribal governments in the region). Saddam has justified his reign of power as being a direct descendant of mohammed. While on a different scale, of course, that's not completely unlike some of the GOP tactics nor even unlike some of the terrorist group recruiting tactics. Fundamentalism (religious or otherwise) is a very powerful tool of persuasion. The extreme right know it's easier to keep people from questioning things too much and keep their line of thinking in a fundamental state than to openly debate issues...Sadam was bad...the war was good...gays are bad...taxes are bad...keep the masses dwelling on oversimplified rhetoric and they ignore the rest. ;o) |
| Kuku 10.09.2004 23:30 |
Check out this website - link How can one person screw up so many internal as well as external policies in 4 years? I hate to see my relatives in the States having financial trouble because of misguided and selfish economic policies that Bush admin pushed in the midst of war, terrorism etc. OK, so the Bush administration caused many deaths, and many countries are angry about that. But what can the average Americans do to change it? When the American Constitution was written the writers feared that too much democracy in the people's hand would be abused easily and designed the election so that a few representatives rather than everyone can exert their political power during the voting process. So what if the majority of people think Bush has to be removed? You never know what is going to happen in the election, and a few hundred votes are easier to buy than a few million people. On the other hand, I fear that even if Kerry is elected, every time something goes amiss Bush's side will say "I told you so" and spread mistrust. |
| The Real Wizard 11.09.2004 02:06 |
joeyjojo wrote: Fundamentalism (religious or otherwise) is a very powerful tool of persuasion. The extreme right know it's easier to keep people from questioning things too much and keep their line of thinking in a fundamental state than to openly debate issues...Sadam was bad...the war was good...gays are bad...taxes are bad...keep the masses dwelling on oversimplified rhetoric and they ignore the rest. ;o)Truth 101 for the uneducated to read. Excellent stuff, man. Kuku wrote: On the other hand, I fear that even if Kerry is elected, every time something goes amiss Bush's side will say "I told you so" and spread mistrust.Never thought of that, but you could very well be right. |
| Bob The Shrek 11.09.2004 03:26 |
I am fit? Like physically fit? I don't think that means the same thing for me as it does you. I dunno what you mean by that oppo. Describing someone as 'fit' means you think they are good looking, attractive etc |
| joeyjojo 11.09.2004 10:12 |
What can the average american do? Well, at the top level...not a whole lot. Voting certainly helps (we have abysmal voter turnout in this country) but, at the federal level, there is a lot that favours the 2-party system and very little that will enable it to bring in 3rd parties. At the local level, that's a bit different. A lot is actually going on at the local level. The Green party and independants are slowly gaining percantages in government. Many local (ciy-level) areas in the country now use instant run off voting (the ONLY solution to our national election problems, IMHO) so things are going somewhere. If you've seen 'OutFoxed'--an excellent documentary on Rupert Murdoch's incredibly powerful media empire--you'll remember a great quote from the movie (I'm paraphrasing): "The reason propaganda works so well on the american public is because the American public are folks that least expect propaganda". That is a very true statement, and, as such, the ONE thing the average american can do is to ask more questions. We'll see if that happens. ;o) |
| deleted user 11.09.2004 11:48 |
why don't you try going to one SOBER. you might enjoy it more. |
| Mr Coolest Cat 11.09.2004 11:50 |
Yes i would also like to congratulate G.W.Bush and all of your armed forces, 11,000 dead Iraqi's, its a very good start, keep up the good work over the next 4 years, Britain salute's you. |
| Lisser 11.09.2004 12:45 |
Buttlick!!!! We should meet up!! I live ten minutes from Newport!! I think you already know that though..aren't you a Hoosier??? EWWWWW!! Doesn't UK beat IU in basketball like allllllll the time??? University of Kentucky that is, not United Kingdom for all you british folks. ;) |
| Introducing_Christina Lauren 11.09.2004 13:38 |
there are plenty of americans pissed off at bush also, we are not all backing the war, some us hate the fact that the whole world hates us. |
| Mr Coolest Cat 11.09.2004 14:44 |
Britain loves you cause you don't let terrorist's fuck you up, rock on GW, here's to 4 more years. |
| FairyQueen 11.09.2004 15:26 |
People have hated America since the day thos country was born. Don't let it bother you that people hate us. I always know we are the ones to have the have the last laugh so don't fret if some fools hate us. If they didn't like the U.S.A, they wouldn't need America's money, now would they? What about the genocide that is going on in Sudan? Thousands upon thousands of black people are being killed and being driven from their homes. This picture I saw in the National Geographic magazine of this black Sudanese woman in her hut after she was driven out of her home with her straving children. Just horrific. Just as usual the U.N doesn't care. I'm not surprised. After they were being sued for slavery, I'm not surprised at any of the rediculous actions they take anymore. And as usual, America actually cares. Powell was talking about it the other day and how others should help stop this. This world sometimes, just makes me puke. The people who try to do good are struck down and described as fakes and liars. Most of those 11,000 Iraqi people were killed by terrorists who don't care about their own people. They will do antyhing to stop a stable and peaceful country because that means they can't brainwash people. If people are free, they're hard to brainwash because no one is holding them down and they can prosper on their own. Terrorists can't take advantage of these people because they will be too busy exercising their freedom by having jobs, learning and taking care of families. It's hard to find a scapegoat when you have no angry, discouraged people to take advantage of. |
| joeyjojo 11.09.2004 23:06 |
"And as usual, America actually cares. Powell was talking about it the other day and how others should help stop this." And what have we done to stop this? Fairy, we're not a sainted country. We've ignored plenty of attrocities throughout human history. We've contributed more than our fair share with the native americans and african slavery ourselves...as well as putting folks like Saddam, Osama, and various other dicators in power through US backing. We're rather fickle that way ;o) We're certainly a good country, but we can do a lot more to fit into the global club. |
| FreddiesGhettoTrench 12.09.2004 21:08 |
I'd just like to add to what MayFan said and point out that a lot (not all) liberals supported the war on Kosovo back in 1999. Slobadon Milosevic was no threat to us, was he? But the argument many members of the left used was that we needed to stop the atrocities that Milosevic was committing against his own people. If you supported the war on Kosovo but you don't support the war on Iraq - WHY? Is it simply because Clinton ordered one and Bush ordered the other? Why do some people have to call Bush things like a tyrant when a real tyrant has been taken out of power? Yeah, Bush isn't perfect but neither was Clinton, neither was Father Bush, or Reagan before him or Carter before him if you keep going back. The fact is that none of us is the president, none of us can make the decisions he has to make. All you can do is try and understand why he does them. Contrary to popular belief he is not up there just pressing buttons and going, "Whee! Why don't we go to war? That sounds fun!" |
| joeyjojo 12.09.2004 22:14 |
Freddie: I think you're oversimplifying the issue. There are certainly those that are anti-war. Period. Can't do much to sway those folks. A lot of what you call 'liberals' aren't so much against the war as they are against the intentions and the process that Bush took to get us into that war. Kosovo was also much more multi-national support, which, alone, makes it drastically different than this war. "All you can do is try and understand why he does them." That's the key issue here. There's evidence that this Iraq war was planned well before 9-11. That's fine, but why? The single BIGGEST issue I have with this war is Bush tying it into 9-11 purely to persuade a portion of the american public. (Other issues include a lack of an exit strategy and a failing in Afghanistan). "Contrary to popular belief he is not up there just pressing buttons and going, "Whee! Why don't we go to war? That sounds fun!"" Based on what? THAT is what we're all trying to figure out. When the VP is tied directly to the single largest military contactor in the world who gets the entire, uncontested contract for a war, you can't help but raise a LITTLE BIT of suspicion over motives. There is NO DOUBT that Saddam was an evil tyrant. That said, he was an evil tyrant for some 30 yeasrs. There are many other evil tyrants and outright genocide going on in the world. WHY this war? WHY this country? WHY this timing? WHY no real exit strategy? WHY the alleged ties to 9-11? WHY didn't we find Osama? WHY can't we fix that damn problem in Israel first? Etc. |
| FreddiesGhettoTrench 13.09.2004 07:05 |
Osama's certainly not DUMB. He masterminded 9/11, he's not going to hide somewhere with "HERE'S OSAMA" in neon lights. As far as Saddam, we should have taken him out thirty years ago as far as I'm concerned... But that's just me... |
| Music Man 13.09.2004 16:17 |
joeyjojo wrote: "Hopefully, and I mean hopefully, some of these crazies in the world will start thinking twice before they go and kill our friends and families." That's not how terrorists work, MusicMan. Terrorists are not rational entities. You can't fight a war on terrorism. And let's not forget some of Osama's reasons for his acts...the fact that the US maintains a large presense in the Middle east. The very act of us invading Iraq is in many ways more fodder for the terrorist recruiters.I'll continue reading the rest of the thread afterwards, but I couldn't help but notice this...I don't think I said that. |
| Music Man 13.09.2004 16:31 |
I would like to hereby dismiss and divert any argument aimed at the amount of people who have died in Iraq. Such information is irrelevant to debate. The argument is whether or not it was the right decision to make war on Iraq, if the decision is justified, so are the deaths; if the decision is proved fallacious, then the deaths are strikes against the Bush administration (but only then are they so). Until such a conclusion is established, the death toll in Iraq should not be used to promote any anti-war argument. |
| Music Man 13.09.2004 16:58 |
Kuku wrote: Check out this website - linkJust looking at this site immediately triggered my bullshit detector. I loved how not only each and every point on that site was backed up with clear and obvious details, but there were also proven confirmations of every listed fact. The facts were backed with detailed examples and clearly proven full-truths. Every point of view was clearly explored. You could tell that there existed no bias at all. Every possible explanation was researched, and each and every one was mentioned. I am merely attacking propaganda and poor argument. What I said here has no bearing on any who are against Bush, nor any who are for him. I like articles like in the site above only if they are purely for the intentions of silly, non-serious jokes, as you would find on satiric news columns as The Onion. But when you are trying to seriously persuade people and "inform" them for an upcoming election, I can only look down upon you. |
| joeyjojo 13.09.2004 19:09 |
Sorry, Music Man...that wasn't you I quoted. I think it was MyFan. Apologise for the mix-up. |
| the oppositionist 13.09.2004 20:42 |
Yeah sorry lisser! fit in england means good looking like bob said. erm, i guess you would say he was spunky?! lol cute? |
| jasen101 13.09.2004 21:14 |
I think they should dress Bush up as a camel in heat and send him over there to work the locals. |
| The Real Wizard 14.09.2004 01:49 |
Music Man wrote: I would like to hereby dismiss and divert any argument aimed at the amount of people who have died in Iraq. Such information is irrelevant to debate. The argument is whether or not it was the right decision to make war on Iraq, if the decision is justified, so are the deaths; if the decision is proved fallacious, then the deaths are strikes against the Bush administration (but only then are they so). Until such a conclusion is established, the death toll in Iraq should not be used to promote any anti-war argument.Ah yeah, the ever-present compassion of a conservative: as long as the reason for death agrees with me, the deaths are therefore acceptable, no matter how many. |
| Music Man 14.09.2004 17:58 |
Sir GH wrote:Are you implying that there is no cause worthy of anyone's death? And are you implying that I am conservative?Music Man wrote: I would like to hereby dismiss and divert any argument aimed at the amount of people who have died in Iraq. Such information is irrelevant to debate. The argument is whether or not it was the right decision to make war on Iraq, if the decision is justified, so are the deaths; if the decision is proved fallacious, then the deaths are strikes against the Bush administration (but only then are they so). Until such a conclusion is established, the death toll in Iraq should not be used to promote any anti-war argument.Ah yeah, the ever-present compassion of a conservative: as long as the reason for death agrees with me, the deaths are therefore acceptable, no matter how many. |
| The Real Wizard 15.09.2004 01:18 |
Music Man wrote: Are you implying that there is no cause worthy of anyone's death?Yes. There is absolutely no worthy cause of death, besides death by natural causes. Nobody deserves to die prematurely. And are you implying that I am conservative?Judging by many things you've said in topics surrounding politics, yes. But if not, then you can prove otherwise if you wish. |
| joeyjojo 15.09.2004 01:43 |
Death is less of a 'deserves it' and more of 'that's how life works on this planet' thing. |
| Kuku 15.09.2004 03:29 |
Music Man wrote:Good point, Music Man. It was a mere pointer to arouse interest, but yes, the author (or the reader) needs to back it up with details. Yet I still think the list is a good summary of Bush's negative actions over his period of power. Now only if someone could come up with a similar list for Kerry, we could compare...Kuku wrote: Check out this website - linkI like articles like in the site above only if they are purely for the intentions of silly, non-serious jokes, as you would find on satiric news columns as The Onion. But when you are trying to seriously persuade people and "inform" them for an upcoming election, I can only look down upon you. ... or the US could acquire some other party than the two. Every election is so same old game with same old people. |
| Saint Jiub 16.09.2004 15:57 |
You forgot to mention Oil for Food ... |
| jasen101 16.09.2004 16:35 |
you bush lovers can say what you want to justify Iraq...but this war is bullshit. Absolute bullshit...Bush has made america sink to a new low and has killed thousands of people in the process. Simply put, this could have all be avoided if Al Gore had been voted in. |
| MayFan 16.09.2004 16:39 |
Is this thread still going on?!!??? Isn't there a notice board on the internet anywhere that is designed for political bashing?? |
| Music Man 16.09.2004 17:55 |
Sir GH wrote:A) Well, I see that you are very idealistic (which I personally do not have a major problem with, but for the hell of it...). You run with a very ineffective way of promoting anything good in this world. Many times you have to go through war to attain peace. Without the good guys fighting the good fight, this world would be in shambles. To anyone who would deny this point, I would LOVE to see your rebuttal. You need to counteract evil with good, that is how things reach more or less of an equilibrium.Music Man wrote: Are you implying that there is no cause worthy of anyone's death?Yes. There is absolutely no worthy cause of death, besides death by natural causes. Nobody deserves to die prematurely.And are you implying that I am conservative?Judging by many things you've said in topics surrounding politics, yes. But if not, then you can prove otherwise if you wish. B) I have argued why a test should be required for permission to breed. I am a person who highly believes in civil liberties and for me to say something like that would not promote my beliefs. That is only one example. Do you think I would have to do much arguing to say "Bush sucks (oh what a worthless statement that is!)"? I would get twelve "Amens" and maybe two dissenting posts! I am very moderate, so I do not have a heavy or extreme opinion in the matter. On this board I have argued both sides many times, and you would do well to read ALL of my posts. It just appears to be that I argue on the conservative side more (particularly on this thread) because, lo and behold, there are many more liberals here on this board. When a group of people agree upon a topic, ignorance (ahem...jasen101) inevitably presents itself. Such is something I resent and will battle with full contempt. Arguing with a person shows me almost instantly whether he or she is an ignorant person making blind statements, or if he or she is a person with properly working mental facilities and a logical reason for their argument. I resent being tagged to a particular political standard (with no offense to you, of course; you are a good person and I hope that you will always fight for what you believe is the right thing). |
| The Real Wizard 16.09.2004 18:33 |
jasen101 wrote: you bush lovers can say what you want to justify Iraq...but this war is bullshit. Absolute bullshit...Bush has made america sink to a new low and has killed thousands of people in the process. Simply put, this could have all be avoided if Al Gore had been voted in.Hence why the vote was rigged. Is it making sense yet, people? |
| Music Man 16.09.2004 18:46 |
Sir GH<br><font size=1>ah yeah</font> wrote:Actually, quite honestly, what you just said did not really make any sense to me.jasen101 wrote: you bush lovers can say what you want to justify Iraq...but this war is bullshit. Absolute bullshit...Bush has made america sink to a new low and has killed thousands of people in the process. Simply put, this could have all be avoided if Al Gore had been voted in.Hence why the vote was rigged. Is it making sense yet, people? |
| The Real Wizard 16.09.2004 18:55 |
Excellent post, MM.
With that, I therefore take back what I said about your supposed conservatism. That one comment above did make you look like a conservative, though! Glad you affirmed otherwise.
Thanks for the kind words towards me. But we have to keep in mind, fighting for what one believes sometimes isn't enough. Some terrorists fight because they believe their God told them to fight in that manner. So I think your philosophy needs to be updated a bit. :)
I'm kind of similar to you, in terms of political stance. If forced to choose one side, I would choose the left, but I feel it's safer and much more of an open-minded choice to stand somewhere in the middle. Same goes for religion. I don't believe, but I don't "not believe". I stand in the middle, listening to both sides. The middle is a place in itself.
You seem to be a great guy yourself! :)
Actually, quite honestly, what you just said did not really make any sense to me.I attempted to do it QZ Bill O'Reilly style... I should have added the "will everybody shut up!!!". The previous comment was in reference to Florida and the last election. |
| Music Man 16.09.2004 19:34 |
Sir GH<br><font size=1>ah yeah</font> wrote: Excellent post, MM. With that, I therefore take back what I said about your supposed conservatism. That one comment above did make you look like a conservative, though! Glad you affirmed otherwise. Thanks for the kind words towards me. But we have to keep in mind, fighting for what one believes sometimes isn't enough. Some terrorists fight because they believe their God told them to fight in that manner. So I think your philosophy needs to be updated a bit. :) I'm kind of similar to you, in terms of political stance. If forced to choose one side, I would choose the left, but I feel it's safer and much more of an open-minded choice to stand somewhere in the middle. Same goes for religion. I don't believe, but I don't "not believe". I stand in the middle, listening to both sides. The middle is a place in itself.I think that the 'fighting for what you believe in' idea gets a little sketchy at times. Nothing ever progresses if you don't fight for what is 'right'. However, you may be fighting for what is really 'wrong'. Right and wrong are very open to interpretation; it gets really difficult to explain sometimes. It's actually making me think a lot right now, balancing things in my head, you know? But I think that if you always fight for what is really in your heart, then things will manage to balance themselves in the end. Oh well, this is a whole lot of philosophy; we must cultivate our garden.Actually, quite honestly, what you just said did not really make any sense to me.I attempted to do it QZ Bill O'Reilly style... I should have added the "will everybody shut up!!!". The previous comment was in reference to Florida and the last election. Also, I am very with you on your stance on religion. People think you have to adamantly stand by things which you have nothing but faith to support. I have trouble believing anything without sufficient reasoning or evidence. I am not bashing anyone who can do that, but it's really a personal thing. By the way, I'd rather have someone disagree with me on solid grounds than have another agree with me without due logic. Anyway, that whole Florida mess is something that I have simply passed over. We can't undo the past, so let's look to the future. Look to the past to change the future, not to recalculate hypothetical alternatives. "What if-?" is not progress. Given: George W. Bush is the president. Now what will you do about it? |
| joeyjojo 16.09.2004 22:50 |
"I attempted to do it QZ Bill O'Reilly style" CUT HIS MIC! |
| Lisser 17.09.2004 03:30 |
Very good points Music Man. Good stuff. :) |
| The Mir@cle 17.09.2004 10:27 |
Bush is quite popular in the States. For a European that’s hard to understand. |
| K. S. Fowler 17.09.2004 12:29 |
You kids know fuck all, so shut the fuck up and let us adults get on with running the world. |
| deleted user 17.09.2004 15:48 |
The Mir@cle wrote: Bush is quite popular in the States. For a European that’s hard to understand.It's hard for me to understand too. And I live in the US. |
| joeyjojo 17.09.2004 20:48 |
" Speaking of oil for food, the light will soon shine on this scandal, and I have a feeling that a lot of folks are going to be eating their words.... " Just like all of us that are now eating those words 'there are no WMDs in Iraq'? |
| The Real Wizard 18.09.2004 00:46 |
Music Man wrote: I think that the 'fighting for what you believe in' idea gets a little sketchy at times. Nothing ever progresses if you don't fight for what is 'right'. However, you may be fighting for what is really 'wrong'. Right and wrong are very open to interpretation; it gets really difficult to explain sometimes. It's actually making me think a lot right now, balancing things in my head, you know? But I think that if you always fight for what is really in your heart, then things will manage to balance themselves in the end. Oh well, this is a whole lot of philosophy; we must cultivate our garden.*sigh*... yep, couldn't agree more. By the way, I'd rather have someone disagree with me on solid grounds than have another agree with me without due logic.Same here. I have the slightest inkling you're a rationalist as well. Anyway, that whole Florida mess is something that I have simply passed over. We can't undo the past, so let's look to the future. Look to the past to change the future, not to recalculate hypothetical alternatives. "What if-?" is not progress. Given: George W. Bush is the president. Now what will you do about it?Oh, I fully realize that... but it's still fun to joke around about it... :) Agreed... let's try our best to move forward. |