| deleted user 07.09.2004 12:15 |
link I applaud him for the things he said about Bush and his administration. A bunch of careless, heartless bastards. I feel so bad for the Russian people, and I hope that they can find, and destroy the horrible pople that commited these atrocities. My thoughts and prayers are with Russia. |
| Albyboy 07.09.2004 14:23 |
USA had been financing Osama for years while he was fighting against Soviet Union in Afghanistan... USA took Saddam Hussein to power in Iraq and financed him for years during the Iran-Iraq war (while Iran was financed by CCCP)... I don't exactly know, but many reliable rumours say that many years ago USA financed separatist too in Chechenia and Georgia in order to weak the Soviet Union central power... As I have said in another post, in Europe we look at USA foreign policy with more objectivity than Americans do... Even if nobody says it, there aren't many people here who think that 11/9 was managed and tragically executed by Arabs ALL BY THEMSELVES... Anyway, weapon manufacturing companies are a very very very powerful lobby... And it's not strange they have always supported Republicans in the USA, is it? Today, two more Italian women have been kidnapped by a so-called Islamic fundamentalist brigade in Irak... I said WOMEN, not soldiers... I fear I know what the epilogue of this story will be... :-I Albyboy |
| MetzgerR 07.09.2004 14:41 |
Why is it that in every news report I read on the Russian Hostage 'situation', the Chechens were called 'freedom fighters' and 'rebels', when it appears to me - simply because of this latest act, if nothing else - they are nothing but terrorists? |
| deleted user 07.09.2004 16:44 |
It is a sad world we live in. And to be honest, it disgusts me. Turning your back on people that need your help is nothing short of arrogance and condisention. The USA sent $50,000 to Russia. As far as I know they didn't offer help, or condolances to the people of Russia. What kind of people would do this to a country that is bleeding so badly right now? I don't understand. If I had the funds, I would offer my carpentry talents to help them in whatever way I could. |
| Albyboy 07.09.2004 17:12 |
It seems you're a nice man, M@tt... It's astonishing to find people who still are able to feel really moved by what they see around'em... I think I'm a little younger than you (not too much... I can't remember exactly), but in the last years I've become too cynic... I don't like it so much, but I can't help... Anyway, I admire you quite a lot... :-) Albyboy |
| deleted user 07.09.2004 17:45 |
Hey Buttlick. Here is what Putin said. Do you still think that Bush is truly compassionate? I doubt it. Putin's charge, made in a meeting with a group of western foreign policy experts, came just days after hundreds of people, mostly children, died in the bloody end to the Beslan siege. Putin also defended his government's decision to storm the school and said the hostage holders had begun shooting children out of boredom. His comments did not suggest the final raid was triggered by the shooting of children. In the wide-ranging meeting which lasted almost four hours, Putin said he likes President Bush, calling him a friendly, decent, predictable person. But Putin said each time Russia complained to the Bush administration about meetings held between U.S. officials and Chechen separatist representatives, the U.S. response has been "we'll get back to you" or "we reserve the right to talk with anyone we want." Putin blamed what he called a "Cold War mentality" on the part of some U.S. officials, but likened their demands that Russia negotiate with the Chechen separatists to the U.S. talking to al Qaeda. These are not "freedom fighters," Putin said. "Would you talk with Osama Bin Laden?" he asked. Putin said the Chechen separatists are trying to ignite ethnic tensions in the former Soviet Union and it could have severe repercussions. "Osama Bin Laden attacked the United States saying he was doing it because of policies in the Middle East," Putin said. "Do you call him a freedom fighter?" Putin's comments came a few weeks after the U.S. granted asylum to Ilias Akhmadov, the "foreign minister" of the Chechen separatist movement. The Russian president also justified the rescue operation in Beslan, conceding that it took time to mobilize the operation. He said Russian special forces stormed the school knowing they themselves were likely to be killed. In one dramatic moment, Putin said Russian security forces overheard a disturbing walkie-talkie conversation between the terrorists: "What are you doing? Why? I hear some noise. What's going on? I'm just in the middle of shooting some children." "They were bored," Putin said. "So they shot children." Putin said investigators determined the hostage takers included 10 fighters from "Arab" countries, along with others from the former Soviet Union and one person from North Ossetia where the hostage crisis unfolded. Putin said the terrorists' goal was to ignite conflict between two local ethnic groups, the Ingush and the Ossetians. In other comments, Putin said Russia would take its own approach to democratic reform. "We'll do this at our own pace," he said. Democracy can mean different things in different countries, he said. "In Russia, democracy is who shouts the loudest," he said. "In the U.S., it's who has the most money." |
| deleted user 07.09.2004 17:46 |
And thanks albyboy. I too am a big one to question things, and I may have a much different point of view than most, but when somehting like this happens, ecspecially to kids and truly helpless people, it hurts. |
| Albyboy 07.09.2004 18:15 |
Señor Buttlick wrote: Yes it does, Matt.It does for sure, Señor... Hold on... Albyboy |
| Albyboy 07.09.2004 19:29 |
Señor Buttlick wrote: How long do you think it will take for Putin to take the kid gloves off and really go after these bastards??? Give me a rifle, I'll be glad to hunt some of these scum myself....If it's not some kind of "combine", you can be sure that it won't take too long to him to have them assfucked!!! Anyway (I had just a quick look to the newspaper this morning), it seems that one of the members of the brigade, who was arrested, has identified some of his dead partners... The strange thing is that he was able to say just four names out of twenty!!!! And it seems that he wasn't caught during the blitz but that he has been stayin' in a Russian jail for five years... Rumours???? As you would surely know, they try to make us know what they want... It's up to you to decide if it satisfies your thirst of truth or not... For me it's not enough... God, sometimes I wonder what is it all about and I can't have an answer back... :-I Albyboy |
| deleted user 07.09.2004 20:01 |
You guys have a good argument. Which brings me to another. You can be sure that the Russians will get, and kill the ones responsible. Unlike our President, or if you will, Armed Forces. When he (they) couldn't find Bin Laden (I'm not sure if they couldn't find him, or they are waiting until a week before the election...I don't know) Then they turned thier eyes on Saddam. After the UN warned agaisnt it, and most of the other countries that used to be our allies did as well. My parents (die hard Republicans) justify this action because Saddam was a 'bad guy'. And so he is. However, that in and of itself, has nothing to do with 9-11. And what happened to our relationship with France,Germany and Russia is tragic. They (my parents and others) feel that those countries owed the US a debt of gratitude for what the US did for them in WW2. That is probably the biggest bunch of crap I have ever heard. If you give a homeless guy $100, and he goes and gets a night of sleep and food (presumably), do you go find him in a couple of weeks and demand he help you with a project? That would be assinine. Which brings us back to the Russians. It's no wonder that the US isn't REALLY doing all that much for them as they should be in my opinion. They were not a part of the 'Coalition of The Willing'. What a line of shit. From what I understand, Blair is facing Impeachment, and I think Bush should as well. This world is one big mess, and kids, it aint gettin' any better. |
| FreDRicca_MeRcUrY 07.09.2004 20:51 |
PIGS like this who shoot innocent woman and children should be HUNTED down like the dogs they are and put out of their misery as quickly as possible, the world has spiralled out of control since 9/11 and its just gonna get WORSE and WORSE. I hate to think what society is going to be like when my son gets of age mama mia.. i really hope that russia tells the US to go fuck itself and hunts each and every one of these bastards down, i heard something just after 9/11 george bush twittles his hands wondering what to do had that been russia iraq would have been this HUGE parking lot!!!! |
| Holly2003 07.09.2004 23:21 |
Just a couple of points: "the reasons behind France, Germany and Russia being against toppling Hussein was the fact that it would cost them untold billions in the Oil For Food scam" There are ALLEGATIONS that INDIVIDUALS connected to that program were taking kickbacks. That's hardly proof or evidence that those three COUNTRIES were against the war for the reasons you state. Almost everything those countries said would happen in Iraq has actually come to pass. It's easier to assign to them some unproven and unprovable motive rather than admit they were actually 100% correct. But let's say you're entirely right. Your argument then becomes "They should've gave up that money so that America could exploit Iraq instead." Hardly a great moral position to hang your convictions on, is it? "Hasn't the UN done a FABULOUS job keeping the lid on this bumfuzzle" Isn't the USA part of the UN? What happened to the Congressional inquiry about this? "That said, it truly was a shame that the foremwntioned nations chose to play politics with the situation instead of backing the US policy" That is your misguided interpretation of events, which is based on assigning the worst possible motives to those who oppose Bush but accepting everything he says at face value. "Had they chose to stand with us, the chance was pretty high that Saddam may have backed down" There's no way to know that of course. However, you neglect to mention that the US didn't want him to back down, and were actively seeking war. Revisionist history of the worst kind. "Though, with all of the ammo Saddam had to use against the likes of Putin, Schroeder, and Chirac, the billions of dollars he had skimmed off of the contracts, especially during an election cycle as Germany was in during the ramp up, one can see why they chose to do what they did" Again, this is a propaganda line that assumes anyone who disagrees with the US must have underhanded motives. And you wonder why people think Americans are arrogant? The USu persues its foreign policy entirely in its own interest and demands that other countries do what it says. When they don't, peolpe like you resort to the "sneaky foreigner" argument to rationalise your own incompetence and unthinking acceptance of the propaganda handed down to you from above. "whether Iraq was part to the real war on terror before or not no longer matters. IT NOW IS, pure and simple. Now, instead of everyone , every country banding together to find a solution to the greater problem..." It does matter. It's just embarrasing for conservatives to admit they were wrong and that their man is either incompetent or a liar. As to your argument that we should all pick up the bill for Dubya's mistakes, dream on. You broke it, you fix it. "we are bombarded with daily lies from the left wing in this country" Such as? "countered by claims from the right. What good is this ever going to do? The last I checked, the intel that EVERYONE had prior to the war was AGREED upon" Really? Perhaps you missed the millions of anti-war protesters on the streets of Europe in the run up to the war? Or the few brave journalists who asked for proof? You may choose to believe everything you're told by the CIA but that doesn't mean everyone else was a sucker too. The fake uranium story was proven false BEFORE the war. The British "dossier" of evidence was plagiarised from a California grad student's PhD dissertation! That was the evidence that many of us saw through completely. Just because you never asked any hard questions back then doesn't mean that others didn't. "And, BTW. Which party started us down this road? Which party began the sniping, the infighting, the outright lies????" The Republicans. "Bill Clinton is to blame," remember? "Somewhere, in some cave, Osama Bin Laden is laughing, because he knew even before the first WTC attack in 1993, when Clinton did NOTHING, that Christian people, all of us Infidels, did not h |
| Holly2003 07.09.2004 23:22 |
Matt - I had originally thought that Putin was doing what all bad politicians do when they're under pressure, namely "blame foreigners" - in this case, the USA. But the link you provided is interesting. Thanks for that. |
| the oppositionist 08.09.2004 10:16 |
I dont get why chechnya want to seperate from russia. Idiots. They should stay with them and make peace. Its never good to make an enermy of a super power. This day and age what affects one country affects us all. We are all tied. Terrorism in russia will only give terrorists world wide the idea that they can get away with it, and thats not on. Good will prevail! |
| Albyboy 08.09.2004 10:36 |
It's not a matter of doing war or making peace, you know... Believe me, there are interests which are much much bigger than it may seem... If I picked up the three idiots there are in EVERY country and told them "so, OK, you have to do this, this and this and, as a reward, you'll get that, that and that", you can be sure they'd do what they were asked to... If you put in these messy heads a total ignorance, a little bit of suicidal tendency and, why not, a strong religious fondamentalism, here you'll get the Chechenian thing... Bastards are everywhere, sure... But I am frightened by those acting behind the courtain, those who have money and those whose interest is to make messes come out here and there all around the world... The limit of the active brigades is that they are just too stupid.. The cannot think with their own heads because they simply don't have the means to do that... Think about the Palestinians: how much would they gain in terms of image abroad if, instead of discos and restaurants, they would place bombs under the SOLDIERS' ASSES? If you kill innocent people, you'll obviously get the public opinion's hate, but if you fight for your cause (it doesn't matter if you're right or wrong) with loyalty and honour (and this means killing soldiers too... Don't forget it's a war scenario, anyway!!!!) you'd be called a REBEL... This is the main difference... Unfortunately, they are too stupid and too ignorant to understand that... Forgive me, but I can't stand someone talking about desperation when history teaches us that it is through a carefully planned strategy that wars are won... I hope I was able to convey the point even if, for me, it's quite difficult to do that in English... Try to understand if you can... Thanks :-) Albyboy |
| Albyboy 08.09.2004 10:45 |
the oppositionist wrote: I dont get why chechnya want to seperate from russia. Idiots. They should stay with them and make peace. Its never good to make an enermy of a super power. This day and age what affects one country affects us all. We are all tied. Terrorism in russia will only give terrorists world wide the idea that they can get away with it, and thats not on. Good will prevail!... And, sorry, I forgot one thing: leaving apart the concept of "making peace because peace is beautiful", too remote and naif to be accepted in today's world, if Chechenian would have bollocks under their uniforms, they'd give up doing what they were told to do and would exploit the benefits that being a part of Russia would give them... It may not be easy, this is sure, but, as Gandhi was used to say, peaceful resistance gives their results... Before or after... We were blind in front of Russians' atrocities in Chechenya, but there was Soviet Union and that time and information was not as clear as it is now... As it happened for the yugoslavian conflict, I don't think we will be so blind anymore... :-) Albyboy |
| the oppositionist 08.09.2004 17:23 |
oh the irony- russia wouldnt join us in our fight in iraq but then suddenly its them on the front line. how long until they want 'their friends and allies' (ie usa and uk) to come help them in 'their' fight against terrorism? its different when its you being affected isnt it. |
| Holly2003 08.09.2004 18:56 |
The irony is that 20 years ago neocons like Reagan called the Russian empire "evil" and demanded freedom for Soviet satelite states and now neocon apolgists are demanding the Russians defend their empire with even more brutality than they showed when they were Communists. Shows you how low the American conservative movement has sunk and what absolute frauds they are . |
| jasen101 08.09.2004 19:43 |
Putin has to go. He is in over his head...just like Bush. When they don't know what to do they get the idea that attacking something will make it all better. Kinda like when you see a bug and your first reaction is to squish it...until you realize it is a stink bug. Terrorists are those stink bugs. BTW do you know how ruthless the Russian KGB and army have been toward the Chechyns? In the past they've killed far more than 150 Chechyn children. I'm not, however, justifying what the terrorists did. That is terrible. There is a reason why people do terrible things and it's not because they're "evil". Sorry, I don't buy the whole "evil" thing. "Evil" is to easy of a scapegoat. You've gotta look much deeper than that. terrorists are people just like the rest of us. They are people that have been driven over the edge due to the situations they have encountered during their lives. Terrorism is WW3. |
| MetzgerR 08.09.2004 20:41 |
While many - maybe even most - terrorists have experienced some dismally horrible cataclysmic event that has disturbed them so badly they're incapable of reacting with anything other than brutality, violence, and cruelty, they are still responsible for their actions. Nothing can justify terrorism, and if it's WW3, then what is wrong with trying to fight or stop it? |
| Music Man 08.09.2004 20:46 |
MetzgerR wrote: While many - maybe even most - terrorists have experienced some dismally horrible cataclysmic event that has disturbed them so badly they're incapable of reacting with anything other than brutality, violence, and cruelty, they are still responsible for their actions. Nothing can justify terrorism, and if it's WW3, then what is wrong with trying to fight or stop it?Many terrorists are also simply conditioned to be terrorists. They live to hate because their ancestors and peers did. There will always be Montagues and Capulets, and they don't need a proven, logical reason to terrorize. |
| The Real Wizard 09.09.2004 03:22 |
As hard as it is to admit, these terrorists believe they are doing nothing wrong. It is all in the name of God. In the same way that most Christians believe their way to God is through Christ, some extremists believe their way to God is using his "permission" to attack those who believe differently than them. It's as simple as that. And for those with a sharp eye, I didn't say "his/her" in reference to God, as most fundamentalist groups refuse to acknowledge any female characteristics in a deity. |
| Bob The Shrek 09.09.2004 06:50 |
The figure I have read is that the Russians have killed 42,000 Chechen children. |
| The Real Wizard 09.09.2004 14:21 |
Bob The Shrek wrote: The figure I have read is that the Russians have killed 42,000 Chechen children.Oh, isn't that interesting? Could someone post more about this, or perhaps a link to a (preferably reliable) website? |
| deleted user 09.09.2004 15:08 |
I looked and found nothing. |
| jasen101 10.09.2004 10:15 |
i get jollies from bashing republicans. It is soooo easy to do. |
| MetzgerR 10.09.2004 11:00 |
Well, it's nice to see that my life does serve some sort of purpose...even if it's nothing more than providing entertainment, apparently... |
| iGSM 10.09.2004 12:32 |
Everyone gets their come uppance. Chechnya will get it one day. I guess? |
| Holly2003 10.09.2004 15:45 |
Do you not have even one single opinion of your own? I don't even bother reading your s##t as it's all from Fox Propaganda & News. Remember the fake weapons of mass destruction stories emanating from Fox that you shamelessly printed here? Same old, same old. You're a shill pal and it's easier knocking off your arguments than it is making fun of Dubya's laughable attempts at speaking English. |
| MetzgerR 10.09.2004 16:22 |
Actually, it looks to me as though much of this ISN'T from Fox News... I've been trying to find a copy of the book Kerry authored, as I was told I'd find it particularly 'enlightening', but it's become rather impossible to find, at least for me. I did see a copy of it going for several hundred dollars at ebay, but I don't have that much money to waste...is there anywhere I could find a copy at a reasonable price? Denki denki! |
| deleted user 10.09.2004 19:13 |
"Do you not have even one single opinion of your own? I don't even bother reading your s##t as it's all from Fox Propaganda & News. Remember the fake weapons of mass destruction stories emanating from Fox that you shamelessly printed here? Same old, same old. You're a shill pal and it's easier knocking off your arguments than it is making fun of Dubya's laughable attempts at speaking English." Holly, will you marry me? I mean you and I have had dissagreements in the past, but reading your last posts to this moron, let me tell you I'm with you 100%. Some people just refuse to see or think for themselves. It's amazing to me, that someone could be so blind to the FACTS that have been not only thrown in our faces, but also the ones in plain sight. You are one excellent debater. :) |
| Saint Jiub 10.09.2004 22:48 |
Sigh, I love internet romances. Am I invited to the wedding? However, I think you both should exchange photos before you get married in order to get better acquainted. Also Matt, I recommend seeing the movie, The Crying Game, before you marry Holly. |
| The Real Wizard 11.09.2004 02:04 |
I'll be the organist. |
| deleted user 11.09.2004 07:55 |
"Also Matt, I recommend seeing the movie, The Crying Game, before you marry Holly." LMAO! |
| The Real Wizard 11.09.2004 14:12 |
link Worthwhile reading, but I think it has been posted here before. But I'm pretty sure most conservatives will be too far into denial to accept that they could fall into the categories outlined in this article. |
| Saint Jiub 11.09.2004 14:17 |
It's from Berkeley - no bias there |
| The Real Wizard 11.09.2004 14:21 |
Bullwinkle wrote: It's from Berkeley - no bias thereWhat's that supposed to mean? |
| Saint Jiub 11.09.2004 14:55 |
link |
| The Real Wizard 14.09.2004 01:43 |
Right, CNN, the most neutral of all possible sources. |
| Saint Jiub 14.09.2004 08:52 |
CNN is the Foxnews of the left. |