| FreddiesGhettoTrench 13.05.2004 16:34 |
Hello everyone! Sorry for the mass-messaging! I am making a tribute site to Nick Berg, the U.S. civilian who was murdered in Iraq. I did not know Mr. Berg, but since he was from my county I felt it was my duty to make a tribute. I request submittions: poems, eugolies (sp?), artwork, etc. Please keep in mind these rules: 1. NO mentions of the way Mr. Berg was killed, please. 2. NO politics: war, anti-war, it's not the matter here. If we start politics, people will start fighting, and SOMEONE will bring up abortion. It always happens. 3. No "revenge" mentions... We all want to catch his killers, but dwelling on his murder is NOT going to work for a remembrence site. 4. If you are from the state of Pennsylvania, please put an * next to your name, and if you are from the Delaware County area, please put ** next to your name, because this area is where Mr. Berg was from. Disclaimers: 1. I am not associated with Mr. Berg or his family, and should his family wish me to end this site at any time, I will do so. 2. Any and all submittions to this website are reviewed by Sarajane Elizabeth Sein, and, should she find your submittion inappropriate in any regard, she has the full right to refuse it, as does (do) any future webmaster(s). Please send any and all submittions either to this e-mail or (preferably) to nickbergtribute@yahoo.com. Thank you! |
| -fatty- 2850 13.05.2004 18:45 |
I don't want to this to be taken the wrong way and I am sure your heart is in the right place but what's the point? You didn't know the guy, he did nothing worthy of notice other than die in the most horrible circumstances and you don't even want to discuss the utter futility of his death. I have nothing but the deepest sympathy for Mr Berg's family but it would be hypocritical of me to pay tribute to a guy I didn't know. I used to know a guy way back in the eighties called Eddie Salenzi. He died in pretty much the same way as Mr Berg. He had a broken ashtray plunged into his neck and drowned in his own blood. A couple of years ago my next door neighbour was murdered. He was stabbed in the throat by his girlfriend yet it never made the 9 o'clock news. Only a few short weeks ago, a woman who's daughter attends the same primary school as my eldest daughter had her head caved in by her ex-husband and she died a couple days later in hospital. Sad as it may seem, these three people were no better or worse than Mr Berg. It just so happens that their deaths weren't caught on camera. It seems to me that Mr Berg's untimely demise has sparked another bout of forced grief, in much the same way as Princess Diana's did. I will politely decline your kind invitation to leave a tribute but I do so for my own reasons and I hope you will respect them just as I will respect anyone who genuinely wants to pay tribute. fatty. |
| FreddiesGhettoTrench 13.05.2004 19:15 |
I want to have a tribute to Mr. Berg because he lived so close to me - when I said "county" I did not mean "country", I meant literally county. His hometown is an approximate hour and a half distance from mine if you use public transportation. |
| dragonzflame 13.05.2004 19:23 |
what about the people who lived in the same town? I think fatty said it all really. But it's still a nice thought, don't get me wrong. |
| geeksandgeeks 13.05.2004 19:54 |
Folks, she's really upset about this. Frankly, I am, too. What did I say, right after the Abu Ghraib photos were coming out? I said "I wonder what's going to happen to our people now, eh?" And look how right I was. Sara, I'm working on something for you - as soon as I finish my science project. Oh, how I hate physics... |
| ilizarov 14.05.2004 06:42 |
I agree with fatty. I was trying to say the same thing, but couldnt think of a way to put it that didnt make me sound offensive. Thankfully fatty has saved me the trouble. Im sure that Mr Berg is not the only person who has died in horrific circumstances in Iraq. I assume you will be constructing separate tribute pages for each and every other person from the state of Pennsylvania who died in iraq on your site; it only seems fair. |
| Mr.Jingles 14.05.2004 10:27 |
Nick Berg died in a very horrible way, but as harsh as this may sound just because his death was seen by millions doesn't mean he deserves more respect than those who were in the line of duty, or were just simply innocent Iraqi citizens. If you think about it, soldiers and Iraqi people have no choice but to stay there, and as much as they wish to be somewhere else, they have to live everyday with the risk of dying in a war zone. No disrespect to Nick Berg, he obviously didn't deserve to die (mostly by having millions witness an absolutely horryfing death).. but what the hell was he doing in Iraq in the first place? Why didn't he leave when he had the chance to do so? He was told that his life was at risk, and that by being an international citizen (especially American) he was a constant target for as long as he stayed in Iraq. He was offered a flight to Jordan that'd take him back to U.S. soil, but he turned it down. You don't know how many people living in Iraq right now wish they had an oportunity like that. |
| Penis - Vagina 14.05.2004 10:56 |
I applaud you for what you're doing! I've never understood people who post replies merely to tell people their ideas are pointless in their own unwanted opinions. I guess they're trying to say "No, don't do anything creative with your pain, just hold those feelings inside" Best of luck to you hon! Wish I had something to contribute but I have no visual or writing skills. |
| Janet 14.05.2004 11:10 |
I applaud you too. I truly do understand what fatty and the others are trying to say. But I feel that ANY random act of kindness towards another person, especially with all the horrific acts we've heard about lately, is truly a wonderful thing. And if it makes YOU feel good, you should do it. |
| Krizzy 14.05.2004 13:10 |
What happened to Mr. Berg while horrifying, unfortunately, happens all over the world, it's just not filmed and shown on international TV. The Iraq war has shown to the world the utter brutality of humanity and what our world has become. Sick, sad and unhumane in all its gory detail which the press and media seems to glare into our TVs, radios and newsprint everyday. What happen to humanity? Where's mercy? It's frightening to think about the rage people are expressing not only in Iraq but everwhere in this world. Just driving your car on a street anywhere in this world and you are sure to find angry people ready to take potshots at you for obeying the rules. Nobody it seems has any patience, nobody seems to be happy doing an ordinary job, everyone especially young people want to be models, or rockstars or have money handed to them for doing nothing or a lousy job and having a real crappy attitude while doing it. If this is what we have now what will we have in the next ten years, BE AFRAID I KNOW I AM! Kriz :o( |
| Maz 14.05.2004 13:34 |
I have a feeling that she is merely trying to cope with this tragedy in her own way. I'm sure that living in Philly, the same place as the Berg family, this event has overwhelmed the community and media. It would be impossible to escape what happened, and let's face it, I'm an adult and it gives me nightmares to think of that video. I can only imagine how it would effect a 14 year old. I know Fatty means well and I agree that his point is valid, but I think she is trying to do something that she feels is worthwhile in order to cope with her grief. |
| FreddiesGhettoTrench 14.05.2004 15:21 |
I thank everyone for the replies, both positive and negative. (Especially the positives, I always like them :)) I am actually 16, not 14, but it's all good. The site is coming along so far, but Geocities is annoying. I also have to fight my "weird website" urges that I do with less serious websites, as in putting pictures of rabbits in the site for absolutely no reason. I'm sure that would be very strange in this case. |
| Sicmot 14.05.2004 20:02 |
Yes.. he died a horrible death.. but it was commited in a way he didnt have to suffer too long.. I mean he died instantly when his spinal tap was broken.. One human tragedy by people who doesnt respect anything living. the world is fucked up.. there's nothing we can really do by paying tributes to help to make it better.. the only way to try it.. is to create more anti-bush sites.. One man.. what has he done.. for god's sake.. he should be put in trial for every single casualties the mindless invasion and war after has caused.. We wont do any honor to Mr. Berg by promoting him to status of martyr.. there's no time to grief anyone.. we must act.. not spill any more tears passively.. |
| Bob The Shrek 14.05.2004 21:28 |
I have never understood why people get upset over the death of someone they didn't know. |
| dragonzflame 14.05.2004 23:34 |
Because you think of how bad it must be for those still living. And how bad it would be for you if it was someone you knew. So you see, I understand where FGT is coming from, it's just not my kind of thing. It seems a very American sort of thing to do, if I may say so; you'd never catch anyone here doing that. Maybe that's why those of us who aren't from the US seem to share the same view...interesting. |
| Mr.Jingles 15.05.2004 00:31 |
It doesn't matter whether it's the guy who lives down your block, or someone who lives in a village at the other side of the world. It's a horrible way to die, keeping in mind how awful it was to witness it. |
| Bob The Shrek 15.05.2004 09:40 |
"Because you think of how bad it must be for those still living. And how bad it would be for you if it was someone you knew." I don't think like that - maybe that's a good thing, maybe it's not, I don't know. |
| FreddiesGhettoTrench 15.05.2004 11:11 |
"but it was commited in a way he didnt have to suffer too long.. I mean he died instantly when his spinal tap was broken.." Classmates of mine who braved watching the unedited tape say that wasn't quite the case. I won't delve any deeper than that. |
| geeksandgeeks 15.05.2004 14:04 |
Oh, Bob, just because you have the emotional range of a fly doesn't mean we all do. Kidding ;) Just kidding. But yes, some people do get upset over ANY death. Death is not a good thing. |
| -fatty- 2850 15.05.2004 14:07 |
I really don't want to start a slagging match but I think a couple of people are missing the point. If you are going to pay tribute to someone then you are recognising what they did while they were alive. That could be anything from trying to find a cure for cancer or asking old Mrs Dalrymple at the end of the street if she needs any shopping. I have no idea if Nick Berg did anything worthy of a tribute in his short life. In fact all I do know about Nick Berg is that he was filmed while having his head chopped off. Now this next comment is not directed at the original poster of this thread. It is aimed squarely at Deacon-fan/Buggery/Pistons a pumpin or whatever you have decided to call yourself next. I tried my hardest to keep it polite and explain why I felt it would be hypocritical of me to add a tribute to someone I know nothing about. I don't have a problem with anyone else adding something to a tribute, it's just not my cup of tea. If you can't accept that then you better have a fucking good reason for me to change my mind or should I just keep my bug fat mouth shut and go with the flow? So if you can't bring anything a little more constructive to this discussion, keep your trap shut while the grown ups are talking. fatty |
| deleted user 15.05.2004 17:18 |
Agreed with Janet. |
| geeksandgeeks 16.05.2004 20:34 |
fatty wrote: So if you can't bring anything a little more constructive to this discussion, keep your trap shut while the grown ups are talking. fattySorry, pal, ain't gonna happen, since the starter of this thread is sixteen :) And yeah, I know you weren't aiming it at her. Here's a novel idea. Why don't we all GO to the site!? Check out what she's actually doing. Sara, the heliotrope is gorgeous, where's you find it? link |
| ilizarov 17.05.2004 04:03 |
Seeing the site implmented just confirms my opinion. It comes accross as so terribly false. For example: "We love and miss you, Mr. Berg!" - why do you miss him? You didnt know of his existence before he got executed on TV. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but as far as I'm concerned its just logic. I wont even go into the poem that someone has written. The best I can say is that your intentions may be good, but I cant see how feelings such as you missing the guy are real. |
| FreddiesGhettoTrench 17.05.2004 16:08 |
DeaconJohn, I write what I feel. You can miss someone you never knew was there - it's true. Knowing that Mr. Berg most likely passed me on the street at at least one point in my life (he also went to college for a while at the place my father used to work at). I am not trying to act "fake"; I say up front that I did not know Mr. Berg. I am not trying to make it that I am Mr. Berg, I knew Mr. Berg, I had illicit sex with Mr. Berg, for anything along those lines. Thank you, Mandy! *hugs* I got it off of Google Images. |
| geeksandgeeks 17.05.2004 16:19 |
DeaconJohn wrote: Seeing the site implmented just confirms my opinion. It comes accross as so terribly false. For example: "We love and miss you, Mr. Berg!" - why do you miss him? You didnt know of his existence before he got executed on TV. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh, but as far as I'm concerned its just logic. I wont even go into the poem that someone has written. The best I can say is that your intentions may be good, but I cant see how feelings such as you missing the guy are real.Funny...I don't see you complaining when people say they "miss" Freddie. You can miss someone you didn't know, as Sara just said. By the way, it is a relief to know that you did not have illicit sex with Nick Berg, dear. :-S |
| Sicmot 17.05.2004 16:26 |
All I can do is to wonder.. in what sence was Mr. Berg a Great man?.. we he was a family son.. but then arent we all?, sons and daughters.... and also.. Id like to know what he really meant for Delaware county? as far as I know.. he was there on some sort of work assignment?.. so.. theres like hundreds of contractors from all over the world.. Just like there was 2 finnish business men negotiating for business contracts for finnish businesses. They got also killed by drive by shooting just the day before they were due to fly back to Finland.. they knew the risks.. Mr. Berg knew the risks.. still he defied them.. he was captured first by paramilitary forces.. and then released.. he had all the chances to get out of the country.. but he desided to stay untill al-qaeda men found and arrested him. Sounds stubborn and stupid.. and far from being the messenger of peace U declare him. There are no tribute sites for those 2 busines men from Finland.. even they were only 200 km away from my home town.. even they meant much more for finnish economy than Mr.Berg with his one man efforts. And finally.. the music Uve chosen..sounds to fit better to happy independence day march.. than to commemorate anyones death.. He wasnt any bolder than me or you.. He just didnt seem to care of thr risks. |
| FreddiesGhettoTrench 17.05.2004 16:30 |
It's a personal thing, okay? I felt like making a tribute site, I made it. What's the problem? It was better than standing around gawking like an idiot going "omg you guys didya see the part where they hack off his head and then blood splurts" which by looking at my classmates is the other reaction. |
| Sicmot 17.05.2004 16:51 |
So how long Ur going to keep it up?' a year?.. or untill there comes another beheaded hero? |
| FreddiesGhettoTrench 17.05.2004 16:57 |
How about 'untill' you learn spell check or to write a full word out? Why do you have to pick fights with me? I don't see what the big deal is. I felt like honoring someone from around here, I did it. As for your question, I will keep it up at least until I leave for college. Hopefully, longer than that. I will keep updating as long as I have things to update with. |
| geeksandgeeks 17.05.2004 17:57 |
Folks, what exactly is so wrong with wanting to honor an innocent man who died? |
| Bohardy 17.05.2004 19:39 |
"Funny...I don't see you complaining when people say they 'miss' Freddie" - Geeks: You may not have seen DJ complain about this, but I have, and on more than one occasion. And I agree with him. I don't think it possible to miss someone you never knew. Having said that, I still feel FGT's getting a bit too much stick for what she's doing, considering that her heart's obviously in the right place. She's obviously not gonna be moved sufficiently to create a tribute for every single person that's ever died a senseless death, and it would be impossible to do so. Some deaths are gonna hit closer to home though, and mean more to her than the deaths of a couple of guys from a whole different continent. What she's doing is not bad or wrong. |
| Holly2003 17.05.2004 22:23 |
"the world's liberal news media and domestic and international critics of U.S. policy like Ted Kennedy and Nelson Mandela have given disproportionately more attention to the Abu Ghraib prison scandal blah blah" Pro-Iraq war types like you waved flags and bought every lie. You were subsequently proved wrong on every issue (no nuclear program, no WOMD, no connection between Bin Laden and Hussein, no imminent threat, not "treated like liberators," no stability, an increase in terrorism instead of a decrease, thousands of civilian casualties, and the inevitable abuses that war brings). You would look less foolish now if you faced the fallout from that with some dignity (i.e silently) instead of mindlessly attacking everyone whose judgment was proved correct in the first place. |
| yamaha 17.05.2004 23:24 |
That's great that you care enough to take the time to show respect for someone who has paid the ultimate price for attempting to make the world a better place. Little correction for you; West Chester is in Chester county. I happen to live just outside the borough limits. This whole situation has affected everyone that I know. It does NOT matter whether you know a person on a personal level. Democracy lovers worldwide should feel some level of sympathy and a certain anger toward those responsible for the killing of Greg Berg. |
| Penis - Vagina 18.05.2004 01:13 |
fatty wrote: So if you can't bring anything a little more constructive to this discussion, keep your trap shut while the grown ups are talking. fattyFuck off, loser. And try keeping your own mouth shut if all you're going to do is make someone feel bad for trying to do a good thing. Stick to your little idiotic 'joke' writings that a few seem to enjoy. |
| ilizarov 18.05.2004 06:10 |
""Funny...I don't see you complaining when people say they 'miss' Freddie" - Geeks: You may not have seen DJ complain about this, but I have, and on more than one occasion. And I agree with him. I don't think it possible to miss someone you never knew." - yep, I have indeed. Repetitive git that I am ;-). I can't stand the way some people are obsessed with Freddie *cough*Malina*cough*. But for me, this actually makes LESS sense than the 'I miss Freddie' thing, since the creator of the site did not even know of this person's existence before he was murdered. I agree that her heart is probably in the right place, but I still stick by every word I say. |
| FreddiesGhettoTrench 18.05.2004 06:58 |
"Little correction for you; West Chester is in Chester county." Yeah, I thought of that later and am changing it to "Philadelphia area" though I'm keeping "Delaware County's finest" since it sounds good :) And it's close enough to Delco as far as I'm concerned. Counties confuse the hell out of me. I think as long as I can go there, it all should be in one damned county. :) |
| -fatty- 2850 18.05.2004 07:15 |
Why do I get the feeling that no matter how many times or in how many different ways I try to say the same thing. Some people will never understand. I'm not saying FGT (sorry for the abreviation but I'm a lazy bastard) is a bad person or that her tribute to Nick Berg is a bad thing. All I said was that I, me, myself, fatty would be a hypocrite if I posted a tribute to a guy I knew nothing about. If someone else wants to pay tribute to the guy, then it's up to them. I will not stand in their way. FGT announced her decision to make a tribute site on a discussion board and she herself welcomed the critisism. Good and bad. So as far as my feelings towards FGT go, I respect her decision to follow her heart and I applaud her for taking an interest in what's going on in this crazy fucked up world we live in. Now this next part is directed at Her Honourable Piston Pumping Majesty Deacon Fan Buggered If I Know What Your Name Is. Read the bit above carefully and try to inwardly digest what I am trying to say. If you still think that I am an evil ogre who is out to pour scorn on someone's attempts to make sense of a horrible murder, then think about that for a day or two and come back with a half decent argument. Let's have another look at your last attempt. "Fuck you loser." It's kind of difficult to maintain a grown up discussion with someone when all they can come back with is "Fuck you loser". So until you can prove to me that your contribution in what is an otherwise interesting thread will be worthwhile reading, I will continue to treat you like a silly wee girl who is out of her depth on grown up issues like this. fatty. |
| Holly2003 18.05.2004 14:42 |
So your diatribe against Ted Kennedy, Nelson Mandela, the UN, and the "liberal media" wasn't an attack against anyone then? Maybe you were asking them out on a date? And then you say you're not attacking anyone by calling me a mindless lemming! You couldn't make this stuff up. As for your quotes, post the link so that I can see the context. But let's say they believed all the lies like you did. Does it make you happy that you behaved like a "mindless lemming" (sorry, couldn't resist) too? Are you glad that you're in the same company as many other dupes? So where are the WOMD chum? Where was the imminent threat? Where are the nukes?Where's the peace? Where's the stabilty? Where are the mass amounts of biological weapons that Colin Powell told the UN were an imminent threat? It might've escaped your attention but on "Meet the Press" yesterday, Powell said he was lied to about that. As for "liberal media", perhaps in America you think the WSJ, Washington Post, NYT etc are "liberal" but that's only because at its core the USA is such a conservative country. Where the "middle of the road" is depends on how wide is the road. beleive me, having lived in both the USA and Europe, the American media is dumbed down to the point where it is now just entertainment. From a British perspective, the American media was highly pro-war and they failed miserably to do their jobs. For example, the so called "mobile weapons lab" that is still being touted as evidence of WOMD was exposed by the British media over a year ago as nothing of the sort. It produces hydrogen for balloons and was sold to Hussein by the British Ministry of Defence. One small example. There are many more. |
| ilizarov 18.05.2004 14:46 |
Holly, could you send me a wee email to the address in my signature? Thanks PS: its nothing serious or poltical! |
| Penis - Vagina 18.05.2004 14:51 |
It's even more difficult to carry on a conversation when a participant can't even read. I said 'Fuck off', not 'Fuck you'. And there was more after that. I'm now holding you personally responsible for the death of Tony Randall. |
| Holly2003 18.05.2004 16:08 |
The link doesn't work. What does any of that prove exactly? That America was determined to go to war? Tell me something we don't know. As for the shell, (1) it hasn't been proved yet that it is sarin (according to Donald Rumsfeld). Did my FACTS about the so-called mobile chemical lab not teach you anything about propaganda? (2) is that your evidence for WOMD and that they were an imminent threat to the US? One shell? Probably supplied by the United States 20 years ago so that Saddam could gas the kurds or Iraqis?(3) isn't it a little bit too convenient that it has been "found" in the middle of the prison abuse scandal? All the excuses that were trotted out have been proved to be wrong. Not only that, lies were told to make the "threat" seem real and to scare Americans into supporting the war. The fact there are no WOMD, no nukes, no threat, peace is not breaking out all over, democracy is not being brought to Iraq, one poll says over 50% of the population there thinks it's okay to shoot at US soldiers, oil revenues did not pay for the war, etc etc etc., none of that seems to matter much to you. However, even arch-conservatives lke Pat Buchanon say this was a big mistake (there goes your liberal media theory again). Even Bush lick-spiittle Bill Kristol says planning, intelligence etc was a f**k up. And yet you and other pro-war apologists choose to ignore all that and blame instead "the liberal press" the UN etc. Insetad you should be acknowledging this was a conspiracy cooked up in Texas, as Kennedy said, and you should be thinking how the f**k can we get out of this without making matters worse, and how and when should we hold the lying politicans responsible for misleading us (if that includes Kerry et al, then fine by me - you seem to be under the impression that I'm a Democrat for some reason). But I bet you'll just brass neck it, and blame it all on the pan-UN/liberal media/anti-war side instead. |
| geeksandgeeks 18.05.2004 16:13 |
I need to be rescued now. How, how, HOW did this turn into a debate about WMDs!? What happened to the site!? Can't we just stay on topic for once in our sad bastardesque lives? |
| ^wicked^ 18.05.2004 16:26 |
I really have no opinion on the matter, except that it's a sad state of affairs when a person cannot express grief over a death without being shot down. If you don't agree, don't go to her site. If you think it's a good idea, she has created an outlet for people who have been moved in some way by a death. I'm not sure where everyone is digging up the need to argue, but bury it again. It's not worth it. |
| Holly2003 18.05.2004 20:42 |
You are projecting your own intellectual shortcomings and emotional problems onto me. It's obvious you are going to ignore everything I said and instead keep puffing and blowing. My fault for arguing with a juvenile I suppose. |