| Maz 09.04.2004 01:15 |
First off, this is not aimed at anyone in particular. It's more in response to a general sentiment I've seen in many different places. I find it somewhat insulting that the press and public have made such a big deal out of the tenth anniversary of Kurt Cobain's suicide, yet given only a fleeting mention of the tenth anniversary of the Rwandan genocide. I freely admit that Cobain's life and death influenced our culture and society, but it in no way is more important than the murder of 800,000 people in 100 days due to racial and ethnic cleansing. The Rwandan Genocide represents the myopia of a democracy. While the US probably deserves the most blame, it was not the only democratic nation or institution to stick its head in the sand and ignore this. For those who believe that America should take care of its own first, we did in 1994 and 800,000 people were killed. If you are not familiar with the Rwandan Genocide, it is not a happy event to study. Simply put the word "Rwanda" into Google's or Yahoo's image search and you'll get an idea of what happened. |
| jasen101 09.04.2004 02:55 |
Hey, Let me explain to you why the USA never cared about the situation in Rwanda 10 years ago and why they still don't care now... THERES NO OIL IN RWANDA! |
| -fatty- 2850 09.04.2004 07:50 |
I couldn't agree more. Rwanda has no one to blame but themselves. If they had spent a little more time discovering oil instead of chopping each other up, then America would have come to their aid years ago. fatty. |
| Maz 09.04.2004 14:48 |
"Let me explain to you why the USA never cared about the situation in Rwanda 10 years ago and why they still don't care now... THERES NO OIL IN RWANDA!" Of course, the US wasn't the only country to ignore Rwanda. So what was France's, Belgium's, Canada's, England's, and the UN's excuse, just to name a few? |
| Saint Jiub 09.04.2004 18:14 |
The Somalia syndrome - The reward the US got for trying to be dogooder in Somalia was to get their asses kicked by the warlords there. Of course the US and Europe stepped in to save Bosnia when it was not so strategic. I wonder what the difference is between Bosnia and Rwanda?? Anyone? Anyone? Anyway, no country was willing to commit to the thankless and politically risky job of peacekeeping in Rwanda. |
| Mr Mercury 09.04.2004 19:14 |
The New and Improved Zeni wrote: "Of course, the US wasn't the only country to ignore Rwanda. So what was France's, Belgium's, Canada's, England's, and the UN's excuse, just to name a few?Dont know about the rest, but the UK's excuse was probably that the US wasn't there. (Only joking) |
| Saint Jiub 10.04.2004 15:28 |
Maybe the US should go into Israel, the West Bank and the Gaza strip, and, and using newly invented terrorist detection technology (patent pending), kill off ONLY all the terrorists? Of the innocents left - how many would be Palestinian, and how many would be Israeli's? But the biggest question would be: Will I need my toes to count the number of innocent people left? |
| Holly2003 10.04.2004 19:21 |
Good topic. But I bet if some pretty girl puts a picture in her profile it will get more replies than this one. What does that tell us about the nature of the world? I'm asked to feel guilty about a lot of things. Because I'm white, I'm asked to be ashamed of slavery. Because I'm European, I'm asked to be ashamed of the genocide of Native Americans. Because I'm British I'm supposed to feel guilty because the Brits once had an Empire. Because I'm irish protestant, I'm supposed to feel ashamed of the potato famine. Because I'm not jewish, I'm supposed to feel guilty about the Holocaust. I'm supposed to feel guilt about African aids victims. And now I'm supposed to feel guilty about Rwanda. Guess what? I don't feel guilty about anything that I personally had no control over or no ability to influence. Europeans realized after World War Two that we're ALL two square meals away from barbarism. That's why the European union was created. I'm quite proud of that. Don't ask me to be ashamed for events that occurred before I was born, or for the barbarism of other cultures thousands of miles away. What I CAN do is try to counter dangerous or hateful propaganda when I see I it. I vote for liberal politicians and parties in the hope that they will instigate a morality-based foreign policy, rather than a totally self-interested one. I vote for those who I think will try to reign in the powers of big corporations and special interest groups. In practical terms, what more should I be expected to do? Political parties and governments wield power. With few exceptions, individuals are powerless to effect change by direct action beyond our own very limited horizons. |
| deleted user 10.04.2004 19:28 |
"I'm asked to feel guilty about a lot of things. Because I'm white, I'm asked to be ashamed of slavery. Because I'm European, I'm asked to be ashamed of the genocide of Native Americans. Because I'm British I'm supposed to feel guilty because the Brits once had an Empire. Because I'm irish protestant, I'm supposed to feel ashamed of the potato famine. Because I'm not jewish, I'm supposed to feel guilty about the Holocaust. I'm supposed to feel guilt about African aids victims. And now I'm supposed to feel guilty about Rwanda. Guess what? I don't feel guilty about anything that I personally had no control over or no ability to influence. " That, Holly, is absolutley brilliant. Thanks for posting what I have wanted to say but couldn't find the words. |
| Saint Jiub 10.04.2004 19:29 |
"Good topic. But I bet if some pretty girl puts a picture in her profile it will get more replies than this one. What does that tell us about the nature of the world?" Pictures of Rwandan corpses make for poor masterbation material? |
| Maz 10.04.2004 20:48 |
It is a good post by Holly, Matt, but did you read all of it? It does more than simply absolve white Europeans from the world's evils. I agree with Holly's comments on guilt, but I don't think guilt ought to be what we take from Rwanda. In many ways, assuming guilt for an event is the easy way out and does not change the situation. I think there are many people who look at Rwanda and cringe, wring their hands a bit, shed some crocodile tears, and then forget about it until the next anniversary. What we need to do is learn from Rwanda and investigate how and why it happened in effort to assure that these events don't happen again. But how can individuals learn about these events and try to vote for those who support a morality-based foreign policy if people avoid the topic altogether? Again, this shouldn't be about assigning guilt, but about learning from history. In the end, we are two square meals away from barbarism, which makes my post quixotic in nature. Sometime in our future, distant or not, there will be another mass murder because few acted. But I can make a choice to be a barbarian and ignore it, or I can try to affect change. Simply starting this topic and inciting discussion is more than most Americans or Europeans have done so far. |
| deleted user 10.04.2004 20:58 |
Yes I did read it all, and that was the part that I commented on. It was in all, a great post. |
| Sir Archie 'Tiffany' Leach 10.04.2004 21:18 |
'I vote for liberal politicians and parties in the hope that they will instigate a morality-based foreign policy, rather than a totally self-interested one.' Well that counts out Labour and the Tories. If you chose another you shouldn't have bothered. |
| deleted user 10.04.2004 22:05 |
The New and Improved Zeni wrote: It is a good post by Holly, Matt, but did you read all of it? It does more than simply absolve white Europeans from the world's evils. You know Zeni. I don't apriciate that. If someone posts something I like, I will reply to it. Who are you to say what I read or didn't read. I commented on the part that struck me the most. And you just assumed that I didn't read the entire thing. I still think that the US cannot continue to be the 'big brother' of the world when there are very many things that we need here. Not abroad. It is a shame when things like that happen. But it is not my fault, and I find myself unconcerned, and generaly numb to the problems of the world as a whole. You have the Branch Dividians who were murdered in thier compound. That includes women and children. Innocents. The WTC disaster. The bombing of Pearl Harbor. The murders of the Indians (American Indians). These things were caused, or allowed by the wonderful government of the USA. Until this government changes, which will bring change to the US, and from that the world, I still will pay more attention to the problems here. To all people of the US instead of the people of the world. |
| Maz 10.04.2004 22:22 |
Then you obviously read this part, too: "I vote for liberal politicians and parties in the hope that they will instigate a morality-based foreign policy, rather than a totally self-interested one." I didn't assume a thing, Matt, and if I pissed you off, then perhaps my comments are hitting a nerve, which is the point. Your initial comment, along with this last post, does not indicate that you support a liberal morality-based foreign policy. Instead, your comments say that we should avoid foreign policy issues altogether until we "fix" the US first. It just so happens that's kind of what occurred in April 1994. People in the US were "unconcerned" and "generally numb" to the problems in Rwanda, and until we change that short-sightedness, it will happen again. This has nothing to do with being the Big Brother of the world, but instead demonstrates how democracies cannot plead ignorance. Now, none of this was a personal attack on you, Matt, so evaluate why you think it was. |
| deleted user 10.04.2004 23:06 |
"The New and Improved Zeni wrote: ]It is a good post by Holly, Matt, but did you read all of it? It does more than simply absolve white Europeans from the world's evils." You, as usual, throw the race card into every political thing I say or comment on. And I am tired of it. Leave me alone. And I will do the same with you. You find an argument in anything. |
| Brandon 10.04.2004 23:24 |
Pfffft. Anyway... Zeni, are you attending this summer's convention? I'd really like the opportunity to meet you. |
| Maz 10.04.2004 23:56 |
You are impossible to discuss anything with, Matt. No, I didn't throw in the "Race Card;" it's what Holly himself basically said in that paragraph. I essentially paraphased it into one snippet. But it should be noted that instead of trying to discuss this issue rationally and creating a dialogue on the subject, you would rather claim I'm attacking you and level a quick personal jab at me. If you think your beliefs cannot withstand debate, then perhaps you should re-evaluate them. Quick trying to confuse the issue and claiming I'm picking on you. And Brandon- I'm afraid I won't be there this summer. I'll be moving cross-country soon and spare change is non-existent for now. As for meeting me, I think you are one of the few willing to do that. |
| deleted user 11.04.2004 00:01 |
I'm one of the other few. ;^) |
| Saint Jiub 11.04.2004 00:19 |
I'ld like to meet you too, Zeni. and Matt ... Zeni has played the race card on me several times, and I have not developed a persecution complex. The usual chain of events ... Zeni and I debate semi-rationally Zeni wins I lick my wounds No Problem For some reason our debates never get personal, which is unusual, because I can occasionally be a Queenzone trouble-maker (although an easily ignored one). |
| deleted user 11.04.2004 00:26 |
'and Matt ... Zeni has played the race card on me several times, and I have not developed a persecution complex.' I don't have one. You shouldn't let her win and lick your wounds. Stand up for yourself. I've done it plenty of times, but my words are often, if not always twisted into some kind of stupid argument that for some reason I am apologising for stepping on peoples toes. No longer. I will say what I say, and if it is taken out of context, or just plain mis-read, or if it doesn't sit well with some, then tough. Deal with it. You guys stay in your little cliques. It's cool. Or for some of you who think you are more educated than others: Life is more of an education than any book or college professor will ever teach. And this is not aimed at anyone in paticular. Sorry to dissapiont. |
| Saint Jiub 11.04.2004 00:36 |
Matt - IT WAS A JOKE - There usually is no winner in the debates ... JUST AN EXCHANGE OF IDEAS. Matt ... have you met Psyche Star? You guys are perfect for each other. Anyway, I recommend that you stop taking everything personally and develop a thicker skin. Hmm ... maybe I should quit my day job and become a professional matchmaker. |
| Brandon 11.04.2004 00:56 |
And may I add that, noone allows someone else to best them - it kind of just happens. Often because of some of natural or learned advantage. By the way, if there are any cliques established here... can I join? I'll bring the soda. And one more thing, Mike. The thing I noticed about many debates in which Zeni is involved is that there is often a clear-cut winner... *LOL* |
| Merlot 11.04.2004 01:45 |
|
| Brandon 11.04.2004 09:42 |
Well then, you can't be in ours... Unless you pledge your unwavering loyalty! |
| deleted user 11.04.2004 09:48 |
LOL Brandon!! *wears her clique badge with pride* ;^) |
| deleted user 11.04.2004 10:50 |
I know you were joking Bull. I've just had enough of the innuendos of others. I'm over it. |
| deleted user 11.04.2004 11:12 |
Alli, my reference to cliques was not meant towoard you. Just wanted to be clear on that :) |
| deleted user 11.04.2004 11:38 |
I hadn't thought so anyway, Matt - and my post was meant to be light-hearted. :^) |
| Merlot 11.04.2004 12:35 |
|
| deleted user 11.04.2004 12:39 |
*shares her Easter candies with her pal Brandon* |
| Merlot 11.04.2004 13:12 |
|
| Maz 11.04.2004 13:12 |
My intent, Matt, was never to make this about you. If you read my posts, even after your first comment, you'll see I was aiming at the bigger issue and not one person's beliefs. Frankly, I'm not concerned with changing your mind, but I do feel that those countless others who do not post yet might agree with that viewpoint are more important. It's those people I'm always arguing to. But when I read comments like "some of you who think you are more educated than others," "the innuendos of others," and "You guys stay in your little cliques," I can't help thinking you would rather denigrate this into a personal argument between you and me and deflect attention from the issue. Again, my intention was to debate the issue, nothing more. I somehow think that the reason this topic bothers you has little to do with me, however, so don't take it out on me. |
| Brandon 11.04.2004 13:42 |
Ooooh, thanks Amanda! Now if we could only get that annoying song off the radio we'd be sitting pretty! |
| deleted user 11.04.2004 13:52 |
LOL :^) |
| Merlot 11.04.2004 14:51 |
|
| Daburcor? 11.04.2004 14:54 |
Crap... |
| deleted user 11.04.2004 14:56 |
Dagnabbit. ;^) |
| Daburcor? 11.04.2004 15:05 |
*taps Manda on the arm and wisperes* Happy Easter Manda Panda! Shhh! Don't want anyone going all 'clique-y' on us. ;) |
| Brandon 11.04.2004 16:35 |
Look, Danno. One of the rules of our fellowship is that you can't change your name every time the wind blows. It's in the bylaws, my friend. Also, you must consistently say, "Oh, I'm not going to THIS year's convention but trust me, I won't dare miss next year's!" Sure, Amanda. Sure. |
| deleted user 11.04.2004 16:38 |
Aaaaw...you know I'd love to meet you again, Brando! :^) |
| Daburcor? 11.04.2004 16:39 |
Hmmm... No dice. I get bored with having the same screen name all the time. As for the convention thing, That is almost exactly what I said last year. So, I have that part down. ;) |
| Brandon 11.04.2004 16:45 |
Well then, I suppose you can't be an official member of our association! You're not gonna fully regret this decision until you see the shirts we're having printed. Oh yes, then will you really bemoan your choice! |
| Daburcor? 11.04.2004 16:49 |
SHIRTS!? Drat... *sniffle* |
| Brandon 11.04.2004 16:52 |
Two words: Pink bunnies... |
| Daburcor? 11.04.2004 16:54 |
Awwwwwwwwlink DOUBLE DRAT!!! |
| Mr Coolest Cat 13.04.2004 06:22 |
Matt, be very aware of the thing called zeni, as i have always said, if you don't agree with her, she doesn't like it, because she is the cleverest person in the world, and when she speaks we should all line up behind her in agreement, and if you carry on debating with her, and if you have any opinion which differs from hers she won't like it, and the next thing she will do is make up accusations about you, so be very aware. |
| Saint Jiub 13.04.2004 10:17 |
She has never made up any accusations about me, and we have gotten into a few spirited debates. Of course, I usually stay on subject, do not normally resort to petty insults (with one or two recent exceptions for other posters), nor do I have a paranoid persecution complex ... Perhaps this is why Zeni does not have issues with me. |
| Lisser 13.04.2004 10:36 |
"nor do I have a paranoid persecution complex" Well said. |
| Maz 13.04.2004 11:55 |
Harvey's comments are a bit misguided. He dislikes me for other reasons, so he feels the need to chime in here with a couple of personal jabs. It is fair to say that Bull and I will never agree on certain issues, yet we still manage to discuss them on occassion without any sort of verbal violence. I stick to the issue, and if you don't agree with me, that's life. I'm sure there are many who don't. |
| Mr Coolest Cat 14.04.2004 06:16 |
mmmmmmmmmm |