| KevMull 18.12.2003 17:52 |
As my VHS copy of the longer 80 minute version is ageing fast (21 years this Jan!) and with no offical DVD release on the horizon, I decided to back it up for posterity. This was my first EVER attempt at burning a DVD and I was very surprised on how it came it out....SUPERB, pic & sound identical to original tape. You'll be pushed to find a better quality version of the 80 min version (on DVD) in the public domain than this. Remember this was originally a VHS direct from broadcast copy done on an old Ferguson 'piano keys' VideoStar VCR! (for those old enough to remember them!) I added some smart looking menus (using Hot Space colours as the background), thumbnails and chapters with TMPGenc DVD Authoring software which look VERY professional. At last I have Milton Keynes on DVD (albeit VHS quality)! I'll do some screen grabs soon and post links here. Merry Xmas to one and all |
| Adam Baboolal 18.12.2003 18:06 |
Don't know what use it would be for the average fan to hear of this. But I for one, would like to hear the details of your venture. Peace, Adam. |
| KevMull 18.12.2003 18:12 |
What do you mean by 'details'? The whole process involved from tape to DVD-R, equipment used etc? |
| Adam Baboolal 18.12.2003 18:13 |
The whole encoding process and special settings, etc. etc. |
| pma 18.12.2003 18:15 |
I too am interested in hearing everything from the resolution used to bitrate of the final video and software/hardware used (route from source to finished dvd). |
| FriedChicken 18.12.2003 19:14 |
Whats the use of putting it to DVD, if it's the same quality apart from that it doesn't get worse as it ages, and that it's easy to copy |
| Adam Baboolal 18.12.2003 19:33 |
lol Fried The quality can be bettered through the use of a noise filter for bad video. Adam. |
| KevMull 18.12.2003 20:42 |
OK, here goes... Bear in mind i'm a newbie to all this DVD Authoring etc. I understand some of it but i'm from the 'old school' of linear tape to tape editing, copying! ----THE ORIGINAL BROADCAST---- Bought my very first blank VHS tape (Panasonic) way back in Jan 83 specifically for the broadcast, 'The Tube' on Channel 4 in the UK. As mentioned before, recorded on a Fergusson Video Star complete with 'piano keys'. The programme lasted approx 80 mins complete with pre-concert fan & band interviews etc. It's NEVER been shown in this length since on UK TV. It's had numerous outings and I’ve treated it as 'my precious' ever since. NEVER been out of the house, just stored away with the rest of my Queen vids. Only time will tell how DVD-Rs fair in 21 years! ----FROM TAPE TO DVD---- The years have been pretty kind to it and the quality still looks good and the tape itself is immaculate (no kinks, dropouts etc). It's just good old 'fuzzy VHS' quality. There's the slightest of picture jumping near the beginning and very faint terrestrial ghosting but hardly noticeable. Copied the tape from a JVC SVHS vcr to the HD of a Panasonic DMRE-100 DVD HDD/DVD RAM Recorder (bought only 3 days ago), in the highest recording mode XP. Transferred via S-video din cable. (Whether this makes a difference with VHS is debatable). The HD version came out really well, looked identical to the VHS version and no digital artefacts either. INFANITLEY better than how a VHS to VHS copy would turn out. Anyone familiar with the Panasonic range of DVD recorders will know about the 'Partial erase' feature. This allowed me to remove all the talking by the presenters Paula Yates & Jools Holland at the beginning of the programme. So it now starts straight into the pre-concert build up (Commercials were already paused out at time of broadcast). OK now I transferred it from HD to DVD RAM on the Pan E100 using 'Flexible Recording' (FR) mode. Basically the recorder will calculate the best bit-rate to use based on the total time of the programme. 80 mins in this case, so somewhere in between XP and SP modes. As it was in real time then it re-encodes it unlike in High Speed mode (see below) which doesn't re-encode. So some slight degradation. Note the Pan E100 has several recording modes all giving different levels of pic quality. Max times For DVD RAM/DVD-R... XP = 1hr (digital broadcast quality) SP = 2hr (better than SVHS) LP = 4hr (better than VHS ?) EP = 6hr (LP VHS equivalent). FR = Depends manual time input The other option I had would be to use SP mode originally then I would be able to do a high-speed dub to RAM in SP mode (you can only high speed dub at the same modes and not in FR). As there's no re-encoding, there would be no degradation whatsoever but I would be using 2hrs (SP) on the disk and thus wasting 40 mins worth of 'bit rate capacity' (This is where FR modes comes in handy). Either way there's a trade-off but I think as it's VHS then I don't think it makes much difference. Maybe I'll try it again in the future using SP High speed dub and compare the difference. ----AUTHORING ON THE PC---- Using an LG GSA 4040B DVD Writer which reads and writes ALL DVD formats. Imported the VRO file into TMPGenc DVD Authoring software which converts it to an mpg file. (Took around 25 mins and created a 4gig mpg file). Now here's where I started having a few problems. The software won't play AC3 (Dolby Digital) so I couldn't create any chapters for each song. Managed to strip out the AC3 file from the mpg using 'AC3 Tools' and convert to a wav which took 20 mins! But upon playing this after a few secs TMPGenc kept informing me that my CPU wasn't powerful enough (900mhz) and stopped! Apparently a lot of DVD, Video software lack AC3 support due to the high cost of the Dolby license. So I put it back in the PAN E-100 and created chapters there using the 'place Marker' feature. OK, done t |
| FriedChicken 18.12.2003 21:04 |
"The quality can be bettered through the use of a noise filter for bad video." Yeah i know, but the topicstarter said the picture and sound quality was identical to the tape |
| KevMull 19.12.2003 05:58 |
"Whats the use of putting it to DVD" 1. Posterity, the tape is 21 years old and i'm not holding my breath in it (long version) being shown again or released on DVD by QP. 2. Convenience, song instant accessibility. (Wouldn't dare use picture search on tape version now, too risky!) 3. Experimental reasons to try out and get to grips with the new DVD hardware/software and to see if the claims were true that 'copying VHS to DVD' give near identical quality to original. Which seems to hold true. |
| Penetration_Guru 19.12.2003 06:27 |
We had that VCR too, although I didn't watch The Tube in those days. Probably still watching Blue Peter. |
| Adam Baboolal 19.12.2003 08:34 |
Nice info. But I'm wondering what the compression was to get a 4GB file. That's really small for 80minutes. But then, you were compressing on the fly with the dvd-ram recorder. Still... Btw, remember that your media may have been to blame with that player that didn't work so well. The most compatible disc I have come across (so far) is the Bulkpaq Orange. Just £13.69 for 25 discs at the link - They've worked in more than 5 different players so far! Peace, Adam. |
| ogre t raylot 19.12.2003 10:04 |
I Hope your satisfied wiuth the finished project Kevo - Best of luck. I too have the original broadcast - Having gone through the same process of buying a VHS tape especially to record that particular broadcast of The Tube. It's at the stage now where I daren't play it anymore. The Mark Miwurdz sketch still makes me laugh. |
| ogre t raylot 19.12.2003 10:06 |
btw are you keeping it in OAR? |
| Guy 19.12.2003 10:53 |
Is it really complete? |
| ogre t raylot 19.12.2003 11:47 |
"Is it really complete?" It isn't the complete concert - But it's longer than the edit frequently shown on VH-1. It also contains interviews with fans, Rick O'Brien (Stage Manager) and Brian & Roger. |
| Guy 19.12.2003 12:52 |
Ah, the "Long Version" concert. Thanks :) |
| KevMull 19.12.2003 16:47 |
"are you keeping it in OAR?" Lol, I don't butcher my DVDs ! :) |
| KevMull 19.12.2003 16:52 |
Adam Thank sfor the info on the disks. I was going to try a branded name like Panasonic, TDK or Verbatim. I'll probably do it again with better media. How do I found out the compression used? The bit rate of the final DVDR varies from about 6 to 9.9mb.sec if that's of use to you. The South American Concerts (full) next (Brazil & Argentina), which I have in SVHS and better quality than MK. |
| Adam Baboolal 19.12.2003 18:49 |
Well, the compression is ALWAYS mpeg2, as you probably already knew. However that variable bitrate (6-9.9MB) seems more akin to 6MB constant. I made a 6min22sec featurette at 6MB constant bitrate that was 302MB. After a little multiplication, the number was similar to 4GB when I tried 80mins. I usually get (analog) video into the computer and then make a constant bitrate project at 8MB. Then cart it off to software like Dvd-architect (Sonic Foundry). Once it's there, it gives further options for bringing the size down, e.g. bitrate (Very customisable), sound type (PCM or AC3) and the overall size of the project control. Nice software. I'm pretty new to the software that has to be used. I'm still waiting for a professional piece of software, i.e. Sonic Scenarist. That's the one to get PRO results! Peace, Adam. |
| ogre t raylot 12.01.2004 08:05 |
Just wondering if you've managed to do any screen grabs Kevo. |
| Jimi 12.01.2004 08:16 |
i was at the elland road gig (leeds) Great show so i was delighted to see the Milton one filmed. The tube was a great show back then. Do you recall the altered opening credits to the programme using red and green colour tinting of Rog and Bri from the concert.I was impressed by that back then! |
| Mayboy 12.01.2004 08:20 |
soz if this has been mentioned in another thread somewhere but anyone know how many times Channel 4 has shown the Milton Keynes show? |
| ogre t raylot 12.01.2004 08:21 |
'The tube was a great show back then.' It ranks alongsidecOld Grey Whistle Test, as one of the best UK Music programmes ever. |
| KevMull 12.01.2004 09:05 |
ogre t raylot Not yet, but will do this week. Just haven't had time to get round to it. I'll post 'em here. The 80 minute Channel 4 version has only been shown once (the version I recorded). |
| ogre t raylot 12.01.2004 09:16 |
looking forward to it Kevo. please include your menus too. |
| Jimi 12.01.2004 10:10 |
Yep. OGWT was tops also.The tube was never dull. I think they also had the first full screening of Ga Ga if i'm not mistaken... |
| KevMull 13.01.2004 07:46 |
To Ogre and anyone else who is interested, I've made some screen grabs. See them here.... link |
| ogre t raylot 13.01.2004 07:52 |
Nice one Kevo, it looks like you've done an exceptional job on it. |
| Spisso 13.01.2004 08:51 |
Ditto |
| deleted user 13.01.2004 11:02 |
Nice screenshots! So... When are you gonna start selling copies of this dvd to us crazy queen fans? :) I've just gotta see that long version of the milton keynes concert! |
| Q-Nick 14.01.2004 08:38 |
Very impressive Kev. Quality looks great, menus are well constructed and seem easy to use. Now, how can I get a copy :-) |
| inu-liger 14.01.2004 10:23 |
Is it Region All? |
| Mayboy 14.01.2004 10:37 |
Im interested in a copy too :D |
| KevMull 14.01.2004 10:44 |
"Is it Region All? " I've no idea, i assume so. I'll try it out tonight on diff regions. For the record it's PAL |
| Adam Baboolal 14.01.2004 15:29 |
Will this be put on the hub? And if you burnt it yourself, then there shouldn't be any region coding. We consumers aren't as dumb as the studios! Peace, Adam. |
| inu-liger 15.01.2004 17:24 |
I know it's PAL already. If it is Regions 1 thru 6 (or 1 thru 8, or R ALL), it will play fine on my PC. I am interested in a copy if you can make one cheap |
| KevMull 15.01.2004 17:30 |
Just tried it and it's region free. |
| inu-liger 18.01.2004 21:56 |
Ah, good! |
| proton 19.01.2004 06:27 |
I have converted these recordings now to DVD. Using a dvd-recorder in 2 hour mode. No quality-loss compared with the original VHS tapes :-) Roger Taylor: Cyberbarn concert (from original VHS tape) / Queen: Champions of the World (from the original VCD) The Cross: Geneva 1990 (from VHS tape) Brian: B.T.T.L tour South-America 1992 (from VHS tape) / VH1 1998: semi arcoustic performance (from VHS tape) Brian: Guitar Legends Sevilla 1992 (from VHS tape) Brian: Barcelona concert 1993 (from VHS tape) Brian: Brixton Academy 1993 (from original VHS tape) Queen: Rare Live / Rock in Rio (both from the original VHS tape) Queen's Day Amsterdam '02 (from original TV recording, 66 mins incl. backstage footage and interviews)/Milton Keynes 1982 (from VHS tape) Queen: Hammersmith 1975 (from SVCD) Queen: Greatest karaoke hits (source: vhs tape?) Queen: Budapest 1986 (from the original VHS tape) Queen: Freddie Mercury Tribute 1992 (from VHS tape, the 4.5 UNCUT BBC TV broadcast!) my following project will be converting the 1981 Argentinian concert in Velez Sarfield stadium, about 1 hour 45 mins in lenght. :-) |
| KevMull 19.01.2004 07:44 |
Proton How did you transfer SVCD to DVD? I would appreciate any uselful tips on this. Is your Ham 75 PAL? What's the quality like? Maybe we can trade. Please email me. What recorder are you using? I'm using a Pan E100 (DVD-RAM) in conjunction with my LG 4040B DVD Writer on the PC. I've just done the Argentina concert to DVD (from SVHS) and it came out really well. I use the Pan to add chapters and then on the PC I import the files from the RAM disk and author with TMPGenc DVD Author to create menus and sometimes thumbnail images from the chapters. I then burn to DVD-R. I use MS Word to create Amaray DVD covers. The finished article looks very professional. |
| deleted user 19.01.2004 11:48 |
proton I'd love to see that uncut version of Freddie Tribute!!! Are the songs good, that were cut on the official release? |
| Adam Baboolal 19.01.2004 12:48 |
I second that about seeing the full uncut FM concert. "How did you transfer SVCD to DVD?" Well, since you mentioned using your PC to record to dvd, you can just copy the mpg from the disc to your HD. SVCD and DVD use the same compression. And if you put the mpg from your svcd file onto your dvd software, it'll re-encode it to dvd specs. Peace, Adam. |
| proton 20.01.2004 04:45 |
I don't know what software you use, but TMPGENC DVD author does not accept SVCD resolution, also SVCD has not the same resolution as DVD! SVCD NTSC = 480 x 480 SVCD PAL = 480 x 576 DVD NTSC = 720 x 480 DVD PAL = 720 x 576 The solution is to alter the MPG files with a patcher programme so that the DVD author programme thinks it gets a DVD resolution, then after making the DVD vob files, the same patch has to be run again to set the files back to svcd resolution. Works perfectly! Source: link TRIBUTE: it depends on the songs, some are good, some aren't! The Extreme Queen medley is great for instance. But Innuendo is not good, mistakes in the lyrics etc. Anyone interested in the Tribute, my email addy is in my profile, just contact me :-) |
| Adam Baboolal 20.01.2004 14:47 |
Proton, did I not say, "And if you put the mpg from your svcd file onto your dvd software, it'll re-encode it to dvd specs"? In other words, dropping it onto the dvd software creates all the correct settings for dvd, e.g. resolution, altered compression, etc. Some software will do those things automatically. Some don't bother. Peace, Adam. |
| inu-liger 20.01.2004 14:52 |
I'll third the tribute |
| KevMull 20.01.2004 15:03 |
How does a ntsc SVCD look on a large (40") TV? |
| pma 20.01.2004 15:18 |
There are methods of putting SVCD to DVD (not all players play svcd-dvd) without re-converting the video (audio needs resampling of course). More info... link (and the site in general) The methods are as I recall was based on "patching" the header of the files (as Proton mentioned). Never done a conversion like that "yet" though. |