QueenZone discussion #296003
Roger's drumming at 46664
| The Real Wizard 06.12.2003 11:07 |
It was pathetic folks, there's no doubt. For those who watched the whole broadcast, you'll recall when he was asked what he does before he performs, he mentioned that he has a good drink, or something along those lines. He looked half-tanked on the stage. He could barely keep the beat in Toss The Feathers, and he was constantly missing cues of the irregular beats. He had similar issues at the Jubilee concert in June of 02. During God Save The Queen, he was barely hitting his drum at all, and it was a single drum! Now before everyone jumps in and says, "Roger's in his 50s, give him a break", I'd like everyone to be aware of the fact that Neil Peart from Rush is over 50, and he's at the top of his game. So is it the alcohol? If not, then what the hell is wrong with Roger? |
| Azmandaman 06.12.2003 11:17 |
"Respect your elders son" see how you feel little spring chicken after living the rock n' roll life, to get you conciously goin why not have somthing to warm the old cockles. Age is nothing and comparison is a cheap shot every one is different, like the heavily thought out views that me and you wanna share. Roger rocks he did and will continue woteva fuel is gonna spring him back he was da pesronal original universal rock drumming beat creator of the Queen sound big up! |
| Daz85 06.12.2003 11:24 |
Sounded fine to me. Nothing wrong with it. |
| Bohardy 06.12.2003 11:45 |
"So is it the alcohol? If not, then what the hell is wrong with Roger?" - The alcohol has nothing to do with it, given that he presumably always used to drink before a gig when he was on top form. The only thing the hell wrong with Roger is that he obviously very rarely plays drums these days, and obviously likes the situation to be like that. When he was at his prime he confessed to never practising, but at that point he was pretty much either touring or recording constantly. Now that he's doing neither of those things it should be obvious to see that he basically never plays the drums, save for the odd "Queen" gig every now and then. To say "Neil Peart can do it, so why can't Rog?" is just pointless. Peart's always been a more virtuosic drummer than Roger, and I would assume he still practises and gigs alot, allowing him to retain the chops that he's built up over the years of practising and playing. If Rog could be bothered to practise for 8 hours ever day and get himself into shape, then I daresay he could possibly be doing what Neil Peart does now. I'm 24 and I can bicep curl 15kg, yet I expect when Arnie was my age he could do at least twice that amount, so should I have to be able to do that amount? Rog seems to not have the inclination to play the drums any more, and as such has obviously declined as a drummer. And that's it, surely. |
| NoOneButYou1975 06.12.2003 11:45 |
maybe he wasnt playing the lead drums on it...The Corrs where playing and Roger was a guest on that part of the set i guess |
| Wayne Gretzky 06.12.2003 12:36 |
I think Roger was quite good at the 46664 concert. I have not heard Toss The Feathers, but I've heard some other tracks and he wasn't that bad. |
| FriedChicken 06.12.2003 13:29 |
" I'd like everyone to be aware of the fact that Neil Peart from Rush is over 50, and he's at the top of his game." Roger plays maybe a maximum of 5 shows a year, Peart...a lot more! If Roger tried to get in shape again with practicing a lot I have no doubt that his drumming would get better. And as for God save The Queen, I think Roger didn't play the drums much cause he thought it was Brians moment, Brians time in the spotlight |
| siljeoen 06.12.2003 14:36 |
*agrees* |
| Mr.Jingles 06.12.2003 14:45 |
Leave the man alone, will you. That guy from Rush is still in good shape because he still constantly plays with his band, and Roger doesn't. He might not be at the top of his game, but I don't think Roger is as bad as to call him "pathetic". So now what are you going to call Roger next?... a "sell out"? |
| Daburcor? 06.12.2003 14:46 |
"Roger rocks he did and will continue woteva fuel is gonna spring him back he was da pesronal original universal rock drumming beat creator of the Queen sound big up!" ...What? |
| Robin 06.12.2003 15:21 |
I thought his performance with the Corrs was cool! He was fine. He admits he does not practice so there ya go. |
| jeff payne 1680 06.12.2003 16:03 |
well gh you are a prat you obviously don't knot much about drumming I sat and listened to toss the feathers (the original) and the drumming is as Roger does it slightly out of sinc and how the fuck can you slag off a a man when what do you know about drumming you prat get a life I sat with Steve Ferrone (if u know about drums u know him) and we went over and over the drumming and thought it was ok |
| wstüssyb 06.12.2003 16:53 |
maybe RT does not want to play so good, so Brian will give him the lead singing job =) |
| AlexRocks 06.12.2003 17:09 |
I think Roger is great! He does need to get into shape more, do more practicing playing AND singing at the same time, and do more solo stuff. Same for, uh, John Deacon...I can't wait until his solo album and tour comes out. You hear me out there John? Anyone who knows someone who knows him can let him know I am waiting...and waiting... |
| Pim Derks 06.12.2003 18:00 |
Uh... Man In The Shadows was already released years ago Alex? |
| [StArMaN] 06.12.2003 20:53 |
Yes, you're right Pim, I saw an add at the UK convention, this year. John still rules the world !!! :) |
| AlexRocks 06.12.2003 23:19 |
Huh? What's "Man In The Shadows"? Is that some solo thing with Roger? Sorry! I don't know his solo stuff that well but would LOVE to! I just haven't gotten the chance (or money yet too) but I intend to someday! |
| The Real Wizard 06.12.2003 23:34 |
I asked for an honest answer, and I got it, from most people. Yes, of course Roger doesn't play nearly as much as Neil Peart. However, if Rog wants to pass as a professional drummer, even if it's for an occasional gig, he's gotta practice a little. Otherwise, he'll just look like crap. All he did at the 46664 concert was keep simple 4/4 time. An 8 year old could do that. Mr. Payne, why are you attacking me, and not the subject at hand? Sounds like you're getting a bit defensive here! Yes, although I'm a guitarist, I know plenty about the drums as well. Just watch the video of Toss The Feathers. There are several points where there are odd-beat/time cymbals that Roger just doesn't hit. He thinks about it for a second, and realizes it's too late to hit it at the right time. It's just like at the FM tribute concert during Innuendo, Rog missed a very important choked cymbal, which was probably due to a lack of practice. But back to TtF, as soon as the part with the intricate time signature passes by, he can jump right back into the 4/4 time, no problem. Rog has never played outside of 3/4 or 4/4 time in his life, and when TtF rolls around, he hasn't got a chance in nailing it, unless he totally memorizes the piece and practices very, very hard. It was blatantly obvious that Roger didn't look comfortable on his kit. His singing is another story, of course. His performance on "Say It's Not True" was a definite highlight of the day, and is certainly one of his best tracks in recent years. |
| Lester Burnham 06.12.2003 23:34 |
It's John Deacon's first solo album, released in 1998 (?). Some good tracks, my favorite is 'Birdman's Blues'. |
| Lester Burnham 06.12.2003 23:40 |
Speaking as a drummer, drumming is certainly one of the more physically challenging professions in a band. Yes, I'm sure that all professions within a band are equally challenging, but drumming is difficult and shouldn't be taken lightly. Given that I didn't watch the concert, I won't comment on Roger's performance, but I'm certain that it's just the lack of drumming regularly. A similar problem occured with Keith Moon back in the mid-70s; as I'm sure most of you know, Moon was one of the most energetic, albeit erratic, drummers around. Unfortunately, his excessive lifestyle took precedence over fine-tuning (excuse the pun) his drumming, so he fell into a period of decline and never fully regained. If you listen to the last album he recorded with The Who ("Who Are You"), his drumming is pretty sluggish and uncharacteristic. And if you watch "The Kids Are Alright", for 'Baba O'Riley' and 'Won't Get Fooled Again' (taken from the last live performance The Who gave with Moon), he struggles to keep up. So I'm sure that Roger is just out of practice, although he doesn't seem too concerned with it. |
| The Real Wizard 07.12.2003 00:55 |
Yeah, I understand what you're saying, Lester. Thanks for being level-headed, and not having the need to resort to name-calling, like someone who's name I don't need to mention yet again. |
| Daburcor? 07.12.2003 01:07 |
Can anyone tell me what the hell Azmandaman was talking about?! |
| Lester Burnham 07.12.2003 01:23 |
You actually read all that? I tried reading what he wrote once and gave up. I find it odd that one has to type with an accent. |
| Matti 07.12.2003 01:25 |
Lol! |
| Borhap80 07.12.2003 04:15 |
Interesting topic... I respect Roger as great musician. I had the pleasure to attend one of his solo gigs in 1999 (Manchester), and it was great... But... - I also find Roger's drumming lazy these days. The Modena gig, The Jubilee and 46664 doesnt give the impression that he is a great drummer. The last time I remember some strong drumming was with the Foo Fighters in 1999 on Now I'm Here. I think Roger can do much better. I mean, I'm a singer and I have learnes to play drums now that last 3 or 4 months. I'm not good, but when I get to the point that I realise that I can reproduce much of his drumming based on his live performances nowadays, something must be wrong. And for those who slams us who think he does it pretty lame these days : - Come on you got to admit that he is doing the things quite easy, look at his kit !!! I have seen Dream Theater and seen HUGE kits, and I'm not comparing this to Queen. I just find the kit boring, and I'm not a drum freak who thinks the kit should be "that" big. He is playing "sparesome", "less is better" is possibly his attitude these days... But with modificatinons I've to say... |
| FriedChicken 07.12.2003 08:16 |
Man in the Shadows is from 1996 |
| All Star 07.12.2003 15:54 |
Roger is obviously not as good on the drums as in his younger years. This is due to a combination of a lack of regular practice and a decrease in his stamina. If Roger was to get in to proper shape, and practice for a tour than his drumming would definately improve as he becomes more familiar with the songs again. As for his drumming at the 46664 concert, it was quite good - Show Must Go On was a great performace as was 'The Call' and 'Invincibe Hope'. There weren't any many mistakes during the Queen medley either so i'm sure people are just being over critical. "Rog has never played outside of 3/4 or 4/4 time in his life" Obviously forgetting We Are the Champions (6/8) and Innuendo (5/4) |
| AlexRocks 07.12.2003 16:50 |
Well if you watch the Led Zeppelin performance from Dutch t.v. on their latest d.v.d. release called "D.V.D." then you will someone (John Bonham) do more with a simple small drumset than most will do with a full one in my opinion. So I do not think that a small drumset neccesarily means that the drumming would or could not be great. Has Roger ever had a drumset that was that much bigger anyway? |
| [StArMaN] 07.12.2003 17:49 |
The size of the drumset does not mean anything. I play drums for five years, and I saw people doing incredible things with only snare - HiHat and Bass Drum. Bigness of the kit is here to give various tones effects and good looking. A drummer can't be judged by the size of his drums. John Bonham is the perfect example. |
| NoOneButYou1975 07.12.2003 17:56 |
A drummer can't be judged by the size of his drums. now there's a bumper sticker or t shirt in the making for a drummer to have :) |
| Fenderek 08.12.2003 08:29 |
I'm a huge fan of Dream Theater and Portnoy, but comparing him with Roger... It's maybe the same competition but "different weight category", like in box... I thought Roger's drumming on 46664 was pretty bad... And I'm not sure, but he seemed to mess up during WE WILL ROCK YOU, on the begining of the second solo- but maybe it's just me... Jingles>> Yes, of course we'll call roger a "sell out"...he's selling he's music, isn't he? just like any other musician. What's your issue?! |
| inu-liger 08.12.2003 10:03 |
I thought this was Roger's best performance on drums since...for a long time, in my opinion. Definitely the best post-Freddie Queen concert since the tribute concert! |
| Togg 08.12.2003 13:08 |
I have been reading this board for a while now, and I have to say that it does suffer from idiots posting comments about things they clearly know very little about. I have played in a band for nearly 23 years drums, guitar and vocals, and as anybody knows that plays drums it looks very easy but in fact is very difficult to do right. Roger has always been (and still is) one of the most techically (in terms of timing) skilled drummers around. Watch him closely and you will see that in fact his skill is not about how fast or how powerful, it is all about timing and what is right for the song. During 46664 he displayed his usual skill and I would hazard a guess that pretty well any professional drummer watching would agree he can still cut it with the best of them. The comment about missing beats etc in this and the Queens jubilee concert is as usual mis-informed, as in fact at the Queens Jubilee concert if anyone remembers the osund on stage was so bad at points that he and other artists had to play without much idea of what was happening around them from other musicans, see Brians comments after the show. Try sitting behind a drum kit with a row of AC30's in front of you and see how much you hear, they are bloody loud and believe me if you don't have good on stage foldback you just have to guess if you are in time or not. If you remember the feed from Brian at the Queens Jubilee went down and Roger and the band had to practically play by just watching Brian on a moniter. Lets try to think about things before we slag people off, these people are professionals and they do the job better than any of you could even dream of. |
| inu-liger 08.12.2003 13:49 |
Agreed; the sound was terrible on recordings from the PATP performance |
| The Real Wizard 08.12.2003 23:14 |
"As for his drumming at the 46664 concert, it was quite good - Show Must Go On was a great performace as was 'The Call' and 'Invincibe Hope'. There weren't any many mistakes during the Queen medley either so i'm sure people are just being over critical." The Queen segments were great. But as I said before, it's because he knows those songs, and they're in simple 3/4 and 4/4 time. Toss The Feathers had time changes, and Roger clearly had no clue what he was doing for half of the song. |
| MercuryArts 09.12.2003 00:43 |
Guirat Hero: "It's just like at the FM tribute concert during Innuendo, Rog missed a very important choked cymbal, which was probably due to a lack of practice." WHAT!!?? I know the exact moment your referring to during the FIRST & ONLY performance of Innuendo. He did have a minor mis-cue. But you know what? It didn't matter. Unless you knew the song inside and out it was hardly noticeable. Furthermore, being a drummer for the last 16 years, and a guitarist for 5 year longer than that it was reassuring that even a professional can make a mistake. He's only human. Believe me, this wasn't from lack of praticing. It was from lack of performing, that song! Like I said, it was the first & only time it was ever performed. Cut the man some slack. I hate to say it, but that one little piece of nit-picking just discredited your entire post as far as I'm concerned. |
| Togg 09.12.2003 05:27 |
"The Queen segments were great. But as I said before, it's because he knows those songs, and they're in simple 3/4 and 4/4 time. Toss The Feathers had time changes, and Roger clearly had no clue what he was doing for half of the song." So you know a lot about music then! check out a few of the song books Queen have published over the years, you might be a little surprised at some of the time signitures. And as for "he missed a very important cymbal choke" well he Co/wrote the bloody song so I'm guessing he can play it any way he wants 'live'. By the way Guitar hero, how many albums have you played on? sold out many stadiums recently? |
| joep the rocker 09.12.2003 07:50 |
'By the way Guitar hero, how many albums have you played on? sold out many stadiums recently?' You dont have to have sold out any stadiums to realize Rogers drumming was crappy. Just look at his performance with the corrs. You see him thinking: " When is the break.....dammit gotta focus...1.2...3...4....he, that corr-drummer is good looking..2..3..4...hell missed the break...well i'll get the next one right...oh shit..missed it again....well two breaks so close to each other is asking for problems....2...3....4.! gotta look cool...gotta look cool...2...3...4." |
| Hank H. 09.12.2003 08:30 |
"It was blatantly obvious that Roger didn't look comfortable on his kit. His singing is another story, of course. His performance on "Say It's Not True" was a definite highlight of the day, and is certainly one of his best tracks in recent years." I totally agree. During Toss the Feathers he looked completely helpless and unprepared. I would like to know why the Corrs wanted him to join in, since he was redundant. |
| Mr.Jingles 09.12.2003 10:07 |
Don't blame Roger for not playing at his best next to that chick from the Corrs. When you have such a hot chick sitting next to you, it's hard to concentrate on doing something else... especially when she's "bouncing". |
| NoOneButYou1975 09.12.2003 11:20 |
When you have such a hot chick sitting next to you, it's hard to concentrate on doing something else... especially when she's "bouncing". hmm bounce |
| the HEATMAN 09.12.2003 11:56 |
maybe roger have a problem of salud. |
| Lester Burnham 09.12.2003 14:23 |
That's probably it. |
| Tommy 09.12.2003 14:38 |
I saw the concert, and I think Roger was a bit out of shape. But hey, he's 54 and has lived a hard life on the road for about 25 of those 54 years. And by the way, it was'nt that bad, try to name someone who's never done a bad performance. Let's stop talking crap about Roger, and talk about him as one of the best drummers in the game for 1/4 century and a writer of great, timeless music. YOU ROCK ROGER! |
| Mr Mercury 09.12.2003 18:42 |
"A drummer can't be judged by the size of his drums. John Bonham is the perfect example" And Simon Kirke from Free As for Rogers playing on TTF, from what I saw thanks to a certain Corrs site, I thought it was alright. |
| The Real Wizard 09.12.2003 20:35 |
"I know the exact moment your referring to during the FIRST & ONLY performance of Innuendo. He did have a minor mis-cue." Okay, I'll take back my comment about Innuendo at the FM Tribute. But that does not excuse Roger's performance at 46664. "I hate to say it, but that one little piece of nit-picking just discredited your entire post as far as I'm concerned." So a single comment negates the other 6 or 7 comments? That's Queenzone logic for you. "check out a few of the song books Queen have published over the years, you might be a little surprised at some of the time signitures." I was talking only about the songs performed at 46664. I'm well aware that some Queen songs do indeed have obscure time sigs. :) "By the way Guitar hero, how many albums have you played on? sold out many stadiums recently?" So in other words, you're not allowed to listen deeply and critique music unless you're an international sensation? God, how many times on this board in a week can I find people who attack the person, and not the problem? It's getting really tedious. Stop making stupid comments like this, and realize that Queen weren't perfect at all times. It's okay to critique; that's what the message board is here for! "You dont have to have sold out any stadiums to realize Rogers drumming was crappy. Just look at his performance with the corrs. You see him thinking: " When is the break.....dammit gotta focus...1.2...3...4....he, that corr-drummer is good looking..2..3..4...hell missed the break...well i'll get the next one right...oh shit..missed it again....well two breaks so close to each other is asking for problems....2...3....4.! gotta look cool...gotta look cool...2...3...4."" lol! Right on... :) "Let's stop talking crap about Roger, and talk about him as one of the best drummers in the game for 1/4 century and a writer of great, timeless music" I'm not denying any of this. :) Post a new topic and talk about that, if you'd like. But in this topic, we're talking about how his drumming sucked ass at 46664. |
| Togg 10.12.2003 04:59 |
"Rog has never played outside of 3/4 or 4/4 time in his life" Look, as far as I can see from this statement you are not talking about just the 46664 concert, you say "in his life" please write what you mean rather than trying to defend stupid statements like that, as we all know there are plenty of Queen songs not in these time sigs. The problem I have with your post is not that it is attacking Roger, it is that you are factually incorrect. Music is not about preforming a song without any variation, it is about creating a mood and if you do that by playing faster or slower in a live situation or with or without cymbal chokes then so be it, just because he didn't play it the same way as on the album does not mean it was crap, just different. And as I said until you have been in a stage situation like the ones of that size, you have absolutly no idea how difficult it is to hear what everyone is doing, it's not like the record, it's live and you have to play with other people whos timings may vary and will play it differently to the way you expect, so it becomes more fluid. I really believe if you knew how hard it was you would cut people more slack. |
| Hank H. 10.12.2003 08:27 |
"I really believe if you knew how hard it was you would cut people more slack." Hard or not hard - it doesn't matter. Roger is supposed to be professional and to be used to all the difficulties that a live event has. He simply doesn't fulfil his own high standards anymore. He only gets to play such huge events because of past glory, not because of his present-day abilities. And that's a shame. Younger people who play like he does today wouldn't have any chance in the business. |
| Togg 10.12.2003 08:55 |
Sorry Hank but I just don't buy that, professional or not doesn't make any difference if there are technical difficulties in hearing people, but basically I just don't understand what the fuss is about, having watched it several times from TV to internet I just don't think he played badly. There was nothing wrong with his playing on either the Corrs song or any other, and the comments about why does he need to have two drummers are plain stupid, it was not done for support it was done for effect, it was a live show and it was fun to have two drummers on some songs whether it called for it or not. I just find it ammusing to see folk on this site be so critical of something, when there was nothing wrong, I can only think it's because they feel it makes them look good. Basically I'm sure in his younger days he was faster and fitter, but he did nothing wrong on the night and played well. Now everyones intitled to their opinion, but the majority of facts in this post have been incorrect, just look back and see how many holes have been picked in Guitar heros argument. Just being a member of Queen does not mean he is blameless and can walk on water, but in this case he doesn't deserve the bad rap he is getting. And as the concert is now available on the 46664 web site lets all have a look and see, show me the exact spot you say he was not in time, there is a time counter in the bottom left hand corner of Windows media so tell me the point, and we can all go a check it out, it only takes two minuets to check. |
| The Real Wizard 10.12.2003 11:25 |
"Look, as far as I can see from this statement you are not talking about just the 46664 concert, you say "in his life" please write what you mean rather than trying to defend stupid statements like that, as we all know there are plenty of Queen songs not in these time sigs." Okay, I completely apologize for making that comment. I am a musician who (usually) knows what he's talking about, and I don't know what the hell I was thinking with this one. "Music is not about preforming a song without any variation, it is about creating a mood and if you do that by playing faster or slower in a live situation or with or without cymbal chokes then so be it, just because he didn't play it the same way as on the album does not mean it was crap, just different." Yes, very true, but when a song is missing key elements, it will certainly not sound good, compared to the record or not. Honestly, how would Toss The Feathers have sounded had the Corrs drummer not been there? "until you have been in a stage situation like the ones of that size, you have absolutly no idea how difficult it is to hear what everyone is doing" Absolutely not. As Hank said, if you're a professional, then you should perform like one. I've never once heard Mike Portnoy from Dream Theater screw up on the drums, and he plays concerts for hours in dozens of time signatures. "He simply doesn't fulfil his own high standards anymore. He only gets to play such huge events because of past glory, not because of his present-day abilities." Right on. "Younger people who play like he does today wouldn't have any chance in the business." Unfortunately, the same doesn't go for guitarists. 95% of the guitarists in rock bands (commercial or not) couldn't do what Brian May is doing now, never mind in 1975. "I just find it ammusing to see folk on this site be so critical of something, when there was nothing wrong, I can only think it's because they feel it makes them look good." There was nothing wrong, in your opinion. We're not here for a ego-boost, like you're suggesting. We're here for a discussion. "just look back and see how many holes have been picked in Guitar heros argument." Where are the other holes? "And as the concert is now available on the 46664 web site lets all have a look and see" I really wish I could take you up on your idea, but I couldn't possibly be able to do that with a dial-up connection. :( The best I could do is watch my VCR tape, and set the clock back to 0:00 when TtF starts. |
| FriedChicken 10.12.2003 11:37 |
"I've never once heard Mike Portnoy from Dream Theater screw up on the drums, and he plays concerts for hours in dozens of time signatures," I want to see him when he's 55 and plays 4 concerts a year |
| The Real Wizard 10.12.2003 11:46 |
Neil Peart from Rush is 51 now, and he's showing no signs of decline. Peart now is leagues ahead of Taylor at any point. Also, Mike Portnoy in his prime and Roger Taylor in his prime aren't even comparable. Portnoy is doing things on the drums that Roger would have no clue of at any point in his life. 15/8, 7/8, double-kick, and 3 hour shows. They're not even in the same league. Rog was a great drummer in his prime, but nowhere near guys like Bonham, Portnoy and Peart. But really, it's like comparing apples and oranges. Rog played in a pop-oriented band (although I'm well aware they steered far away from pop at times). Rush and Dream Theater are not pop-oriented bands. They are progressive rock bands, and they create music that could never be caught dead on the radio, simply because it's far beyond the mindset of the average listener. Not to condemn people who aren't musicians, but non-musicians just cannot understand that previous sentence. Dream Theater in particular are so musically brilliant that the average person just cannot tell the difference between them and the fast guitar soloing of someone like Billy Corgan. I already talked about this once in a topic, but nobody replied. Too bad, as it could have been a damn good discussion. "I want to see him when he's 55 and plays 4 concerts a year" Portnoy won't be stupid enough to play this little, and get out of shape and practice. Peart too. Both practice like crazy. |
| Holly2003 10.12.2003 12:48 |
I haven't seen the TTF video yet but from the mp3 it sounds like there's a Bodhran player in there as well as two drummers. |
| Mrs.Taylor 10.12.2003 13:11 |
bitch, moan, gripe Is there the faintest possibility that people could watch a performance by Brian and Roger and NOT feel the need to come online and slag them off? Not being the least bit musical I have no idea what you're referring to (although I CAN tell if a beat is out of time), especially as I haven't watched the thing yet. However, I wouldn't expect Roger Taylor to sit at my keyboard and whack out 14,500 keystrokes per hour at 98% accuracy like me so I don't think I have the right to start slagging him off for doing what he does, when I wouldn't know where to start with a drumkit. I'd prefer to bitch and moan that the TV coverage of a concert to highlight what is after all a global problem was beyond poor; the heavily edited 70-minute version shown on Channel 4 had commercials after the first number - all of five minutes. And although I did stream it off the internet I couldn't actually sit and watch it because the image was just too small. |
| inu-liger 10.12.2003 14:02 |
You know what, you guys? If you heard my drumming, even I at my young age could be barely comparable to Roger Taylor in some areas. I'm certainy no better than he is, or maybe was even when he was younger. I play basic beats most of the time, and I can hardly even play the hard rock section of BohRap on the drums myself. Don't go slagging Roger because of his age - even in my music class, there is one drummer (out of 4 including myself) who is around my age and is terrible, just horrible at drums. Not EVERY one is perfect, and don't bother slagging Roger off either. (And NO I am not saying I am a better drummer than Roger) |
| The Real Wizard 10.12.2003 14:21 |
Dark, you're certainly right about being able to replicate Roger's beats. But Roger does play with a certain precision that's tough to come by. In over 200 live performances with Queen from 73-86, I've never once heard him going off beat. "Is there the faintest possibility that people could watch a performance by Brian and Roger and NOT feel the need to come online and slag them off?" But that's what musicians do. They praise as well as critique other musicians, especially the latter, when it's due. "I'd prefer to bitch and moan that the TV coverage of a concert to highlight what is after all a global problem was beyond poor; the heavily edited 70-minute version shown on Channel 4 had commercials after the first number - all of five minutes. And although I did stream it off the internet I couldn't actually sit and watch it because the image was just too small." Good, your bitching and moaning is welcome. But don't slag off people for dicussing a matter that is over your head, even as you pointed out yourself. We can discuss what we'd like, the same way you can discuss what you'd like. I'm not going to complain in a topic in the personal section about British politics for example, just because I'm not well-educated on the matter. |
| Mr. Teatime 10.12.2003 15:02 |
I am a musician and noticed no mistakes by Roger. With age he has definately slowed down, or seems to have, maybe he just doesn't want to sweat on stage any more. |
| Lester Burnham 10.12.2003 15:04 |
Some people like to critique a musician's performance. It doesn't mean that person hates the musician or won't ever listen to the musician again, but that person is merely observing what he or she has seen and is sharing it with others to discuss. However, when that person is attacked for saying what he or she observed, it's unjustified. I'll agree that Roger is indeed showing his age - and I don't care what anyone says about what I have to say - but it doesn't make the music any less listenable (which is what Guitar Hero is trying to convey). I haven't been privileged enough to witness the recent performances of Queen, but seeing as Roger's last solo tour was sometine in 1999, and, from what I understand, he didn't play drums all that much, I can only imagine what kind of shape he is in. He himself admitted to not practicing regularly, and I can only gather that he's not interested in playing drums much anymore. If he had any reason to practice - be it a solo tour or something with Queen - then I'm sure he'd be far better than he is, but he just seems very disinterested in being a drummer anymore. But that's not saying he's a horrible drummer - he WAS a good drummer when he was with Queen and as a solo artist - but, because his last major tour that he was a full-fledged drummer was seventeen years ago, the plain and simple truth is that he's not what he used to be. And you can say "how can you go around criticizing Roger for what he does? He doesn't come to where you work and criticize how you do it!", but I'm a drummer, so I'll notice when a drummer is good or bad. Roger's not bad, but he certainly isn't good. And also, anyone can wait tables, so I'm not exactly saying I'm great at my job either :) |
| The Real Wizard 10.12.2003 15:10 |
There's the best post in the topic, right there. |
| Mrs.Taylor 10.12.2003 19:40 |
I'm sorry, GH, I didn't realise that by not being a musician I wasn't allowed to post in this thread. And a pat on the back to Lester for a constructive argument. |
| Mr.Jingles 10.12.2003 19:57 |
Guitar Hero... Perhaps you might be right about Roger not being as good as he used to be. But from there to calling him names and wondering if he was drunk, is another story. We all know he's not at the top of his game, but I'm sure most people here appreciate his effort to still play. Not to mention that he still has a good voice. I think the man deserves more respect than to call him "pathetic". |
| StrangeQuark 10.12.2003 23:18 |
"But from there to calling him names and wondering if he was drunk, is another story." What "names" did he call him? Rog admitted to liking a drink beforehand; wondering if alcohol is influencing his performance is hardly that big of a stretch!! "We all know he's not at the top of his game, but I'm sure most people here appreciate his effort to still play. Not to mention that he still has a good voice." GH never refuted any of that. Some of his comments from this thread, since you obviously didn't read them the first time 'round: < < "I think the man deserves more respect than to call him "pathetic"." Ooooookay....... Perhaps if you'd care to read his first post more closely, you'll notice that he was referring only to his performance at ONE SHOW! Another quote of GH's: "...Roger does play with a certain precision that's tough to come by. In over 200 live performances with Queen from 73-86, I've never once heard him going off beat." You seem to be very selectively reading what he has to say. Despite the fact that I know very little about music, I find this kind of topic interesting, and I don't understand how someone being objectively critical can provoke so many personal attacks. |
| Lester Burnham 11.12.2003 01:19 |
I have to agree, Chantel. Guitar Hero was merely posting what he thought of Roger's performance - not only as a fan, but from a more professional point of view. The casual fan can say, "OK, Roger did fine," but the unbiased musician can view it and say, "Well, it was OK, but..." and point out what he thought were Roger's flaws. And people who have openly criticized what Guitar Hero has had to say are being selective in what they're criticizing him about - they're obviously not taking the time to fully read and comprehend before they post. |
| Fenderek 11.12.2003 05:05 |
It's nothing new on this board, is it? F***in' stepfords can't stand any DISCUSSION... It's not the first time the discussion- really, really interesting one- is attacked by some morons who wish the board would be like "I love Queen"- "Oh, really, So do i"- "OMG, me to"....and so on... We're all Queen fans, but we can discuss for f**k's sake!!! And I think this one is actually one of the best ones recently... But no, let's discuss about banning Charles or ask again about PreOrdained or what we REALLY think about Man In he Shadow or sth like that... That's pathetic...! |
| Mr. Scully 11.12.2003 07:18 |
I think it's not fair to (indirectly) slag Togg off. He just said that Roger's drumming was OK. You may agree or disagree with him (I personally wasn't impressed by Roger's drumming but I'm not a musician) but you can't deny that he's pretty far from being a stepford (unlike Mrs_Taylor for example). He just thinks Roger did a good job and now it's up to Guitar Hero or anybody else to point out mistakes in Roger's drumming, that's it. I wonder why so many discussions recently ended in a heated argument. |
| Togg 11.12.2003 07:40 |
Hmmm, thanks for that Mr Scully, I have to say I have felt all along that the spirit of this topic has been about discussing his recent efforts at 46664 and not an 'I love Queen you can't knock them' rant. To me the whole point of a board like this is to debate, and I firmly believe everyone is intitled to their opinion, in this case I also firmly believe Guitar Hero's post to be in-accurate, but that doesn't mean it's about me knocking people who knock Queen. Anyway back to the subject in hand, having watched it again last night I still feel there was nothing wrong with his performance, the Corrs song was in the spirit of the Oringinal (two drummers being the main point of difference) and one final point, the songs chosen were not ones that demanded much from a drummer, now had they decided to play 'Staying Power' 'Sheer heart attack' etc etc we might have seen what Rogers true caperbilities are these days! Oh and please, 'stepford' I don't think so, give me a break. |
| Togg 11.12.2003 07:43 |
Why has my last post arrived at the top of page three?, it was a reply to Mr Scully at the bottom, is it me, I was at a Christmas party last night but... |
| Mr. Scully 11.12.2003 08:04 |
Togg - it sometimes happens on this board, maybe the posts are simply not sorted correctly. Must be some mysterious error in the ASP script. |
| Fenderek 11.12.2003 08:21 |
Sorry TOGG but actually I wasn't even reffering to you... Exactly, as Mr Scully said, you had your points and you were trying to put them across- AND THAT'S WHAT I LIKE!!! I said- we can and actually SHOULD discuss, meaning have different opinions... You're absolutely right- this is a place to DEBATE!! And I didn't call YOU a stepford; AGAIN- WASN'T REFFERING TO YOU. Ok, what the heck... Check MrJingles' post- he didn't even read GH's post correctly, but he just slagged him... That's what I'm against!!! There are ppl on this board that can't, just simply can't discuss about anything... Check "Queen were vastly underrated" some 2 months ago...... Togg, sorry if you felt attacked- it wasn't my intention...maybe should have been more specific! |
| Togg 11.12.2003 08:39 |
It's OK non taken Frederek |
| Togg 11.12.2003 08:41 |
Ooops sorry ment Fenderek |
| Mrs.Taylor 11.12.2003 08:43 |
I've watched Channel 4's broadcast now and it's even more pathetic than I thought - 70 mins, including commercial breaks and only WWRY/WATC featured *yawn* so I guess I'll never know what other songs you're all referring to till someone sensible decides to broadcast the entire concert. For the record, I thought Roger looked and played them fine - but I suppose that's cos he's familiar with those songs? |
| Holly2003 11.12.2003 13:37 |
Anyway, like I said, "I haven't seen the TTF video yet but from the mp3 it sounds like there's a Bodhran player in there as well as two drummers." No one picked up on that. A Bodhran is a loud percussion instrument used in Irish folk music (in place of drums)usually to play really fast and complicated beats. It may well just be that Roger wasn't tasked to play "complicated" stuff in TTF because of the Bodhran player. |
| The Real Wizard 11.12.2003 22:41 |
"I'm sorry, GH, I didn't realise that by not being a musician I wasn't allowed to post in this thread." Wow, way to twist my words. Did I say that non-musicians couldn't post in this thread? No, I think not. I contemplated throwing a childish insult at you, but I thought I'd refrain and maintain my dignity. "But from there to calling him names and wondering if he was drunk, is another story." Isn't someone allowed to wonder? At least I didn't say, "Roger is an alcoholic, end of story". Chantel's words are better than mine on this subject. Read above. "I think the man deserves more respect than to call him "pathetic"." I didn't call him pathetic... I said that about his drumming. There's a difference. :) "And people who have openly criticized what Guitar Hero has had to say are being selective in what they're criticizing him about - they're obviously not taking the time to fully read and comprehend before they post." At least some people here have a good head on their shoulders. Thanks Lester and Chantel, I can always count on you two. :) "I wonder why so many discussions recently ended in a heated argument." Because people blow their fuse when someone says Queen wasn't perfect. I can't count how many times I've had to say on this board that people tend to attack the person before they attack the problem/situation. It's too bad that people are so intellectually weak that they have to revert to attacking the bringer of words they don't agree with. "It may well just be that Roger wasn't tasked to play "complicated" stuff in TTF because of the Bodhran player." Nah, simply put, he was there to play, and he didn't know what to do, because he was unrehearsed. As a musician, I know what it feels like to be disoriented in a song, and try to make it look like you know what you're doing. It's a really helpless feeling! The only consolation is that you know that only musicians are the ones who will notice this. Anyway, this is possibly what Roger was going through during that song. I think I'm going to take back my "I completely apologize for saying Roger has never played outside of 3/4 or 4/4 before" comment for a moment. Could someone tell me even 1 Queen song outside of these time signatures? May I note that 2/2, 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8 all fall into this category as well, as they're all rather common time signatures. I just mentioned those first two initially as simple examples. When someone talks about obscure time signatures, we're talking about things like 5/12, 7/8, and 15/16 time. That stuff isn't in Queen songs. So yes, although drum beats can be fast and rather difficult to keep up with, my point was that Roger has never played in an obscure time sig in his life, hence it furthering my argument of how he was disoriented during Toss The Feathers. The only exception I can think of would be April Lady, which falls in and out of a 3/2 (or a quick 3/4). In the liner notes of Ghost Of A Smile, Tim is very incorrect when he mentions a 5/4 time sig. |
| Togg 12.12.2003 05:08 |
Hang on hang on, Queen are a rock band, what time sigs do you expect them to play in, the fact is Roager has probably played in more time sigs than pretty well any other rock drummer unless you play with Dweezle Zapper! I think Queens catalogue is more varied than most, how many other bands write stuff as varied as Bo Rap, ABTD and Bring back Leroy Brown! Look, I think you are now twisting your comment to suit your arguement, what I objected to was you saying he had never played outside 4/4 3/4 in his life, if you are now going to add every variation of that then that's fine but it is not what you said. And in answer to your question, I don't know off the top of my head I will have to look back over the song books, but keep in mind he also has played with a lot of other people/bands. By the way one other point, in these type of mega concerts, how much time do you think he get to practice, my guess would be they only decide who's playing what a day or so before hand, so that doesn't leave a lot of time to get to learn it does it, I know when my band play a song the first couple of times we are pretty ropy to start with, the thought of only getting possible one proper run through and maybe a CD to listen to before you play in front of millions of people would fill me with dread. So that being said, I reckon he did pretty bloody well don't you... |
| Bohardy 12.12.2003 07:08 |
"I think I'm going to take back my "I completely apologize for saying Roger has never played outside of 3/4 or 4/4 before" comment for a moment. Could someone tell me even 1 Queen song outside of these time signatures? May I note that 2/2, 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8 all fall into this category as well, as they're all rather common time signatures. I just mentioned those first two initially as simple examples. When someone talks about obscure time signatures, we're talking about things like 5/12, 7/8, and 15/16 time. That stuff isn't in Queen songs. So yes, although drum beats can be fast and rather difficult to keep up with, my point was that Roger has never played in an obscure time sig in his life, hence it furthering my argument of how he was disoriented during Toss The Feathers". - 5/12? That's a new one to me. Anyway, Queen were primarily a pop/rock band, so to expect there to be songs in their output in time signatures such as 7/8, 9/4 or 15/16 is perhaps expecting a bit much, although I do not doubt for one minute that Queen could have recorded a song in 7 or 9 or 15. There are certainly passages, or at least the odd few bars in Queen songs that momentarily go into time sigs such as 7/8. Hopefully PD might contribute to this thread, as he's the man with anomalies such as these at his fingertips, for example, his analysis of the meters used at the start of the guitar solo/instrumental break in Brighton Rock. That part certainly doesn't stay in simple 3/4 or 4/4. And does the 5/4 section of Innuendo not count as an obsure time sig that Rog has played in in his life then? The argument that Rog is disoriented in TTF due to the fact that he's never played in an obscure time sig in his life is a completely moot point anwyay; the bloody song is entirely in 4/4 (or 8/8) throughout! I haven't seen the video, only heard the performance, so as to whether or not Roger "looked" disoriented I cannot comment. However, from listening to it the only minor mistakes I can spot are in the kicks around 2:17, which to my ears sound more like the guitarist's fault, and in the final breakdown at the end. And I agree with Holly that there's a Bodhran present on the track. |
| The Real Wizard 12.12.2003 12:21 |
"how many other bands write stuff as varied as Bo Rap, ABTD and Bring back Leroy Brown!" I'm not denying the brilliance of these pieces of music! But brilliant as they are, the time signatures (where there is drumming) are still nothing complicated. The drumming part is what we are talking about, right? "Look, I think you are now twisting your comment to suit your arguement, what I objected to was you saying he had never played outside 4/4 3/4 in his life, if you are now going to add every variation of that then that's fine but it is not what you said." I'm not twisting anything. If you'll READ THE POST, I said, "I just mentioned those first two initially as simple examples." Read before you type. 3/8, 6/8, 9/8 and 12/8 are variatons of 3/4. There is absolutely no difference in the drum beat between these time signatures. "Queen are a rock band, what time sigs do you expect them to play in" Led Zeppelin were a rock band too. Tell me the time signature of The Ocean. Rush are a rock band. Tell me the time signature of Xanadu, 2112 Overture, The Trees (middle), Limelight, Tom Sawyer (middle), Distant Early Warning, Time Stand Still (middle), and Big Money. Those are just a few off the top of my head. Those are pathways that Queen never went down, but that's fine! They created brilliant music without such time signatures! But the point I was making, again, there were never strange time signatures there to make the drumming overly difficult for Roger Taylor. What makes/made Roger Taylor a great drummer was how tight he was with John Deacon and Brian May. Their songs remained in common time signatures, but he coloured them up so very much. Could you imagine You're My Best Friend without all the off-beat cymbals and snares? It'd be much less interesting! "I know when my band play a song the first couple of times we are pretty ropy to start with" Uhmm, your band isn't Queen, and your band isn't playing for 2 billion people at your gig tomorrow night. Absolutely no comparison. "So that being said, I reckon he did pretty bloody well don't you..." The Queen segments, yes. But I will never support his performance of TtF. If I was going to be playing for 2 billion people, I'd make sure I knew my songs inside out. "And does the 5/4 section of Innuendo not count as an obsure time sig that Rog has played in in his life then? The time signature may be 5/4, but he still plays his drumbeat like a 2/2 or 4/4. The snare is on every beat. That barely counts. Don't get me wrong... Innuendo is one of my favourite songs of all time. But, if you showed that drumbeat to a Dream Theater, Genesis, or Rush fan, and you called that an irregular drum beat, they'd laugh at you until the cows come home. "- 5/12?" Sorry, I meant 5/8 (or 5/16). :) 5/12 simply doesn't make sense! "There are certainly passages, or at least the odd few bars in Queen songs that momentarily go into time sigs such as 7/8" A couple seconds doesn't count. I'm talking about keep up a beat in something like Rush's The Trees or Tom Sawyer. I couldn't see Rog playing those in his lifetime, unless he practiced very, very hard. It's not in his blood to play this kind of stuff, but I'm not criticizing him for it. My only criticism is that he played in TtF, where he didn't belong. "the bloody song is entirely in 4/4 (or 8/8) throughout!" I'm talking about the dozens of odd-beat cymbals which make it just as difficult to play as an odd-beat time signature. You have to see the video to see what I'm talking about. Roger was always good with the odd-beat cymbals and snares in the studio (like I mentioned above), but he usually didn't replicate them live. Listen to live performances of You're My Best Friend. All of those little things on the record aren't there. He just plays a simple 4/4 throughout. The difference between YMBF and TtF is that in TtF, those little tidbits need to be there. Imagine how it would hav |