| dudeofqueen 31.01.2020 17:46 |
So, we're off then. Finally. Auf wiedersehn, pet. Ta ta! Good luck plugging that financial hole and supporting those initiatives we've been bankrolling for 44 years. Our apologies for the crassness of Nigel Farage and his right wing loonies, though. They're not representative. However, on balance, we'll be better off on the whole and it'll not be too long before other countries see the "Union" for what it is - a method of making more successful economies prop up this shitty ones. It's been.........real. |
| pittrek 31.01.2020 18:00 |
The main question is - how will it influence my shopping on amazon.co.uk and ebay.co.uk? But anyway, congratulations. Hopefully you won't regret it. Neither do we. |
| Dr Magus 01.02.2020 11:07 |
Goodbye and good riddance to the EU. Shame we couldn't have left 20 years ago. |
| rockchic65 01.02.2020 16:58 |
So have we left with a deal or no deal, does anyone know? |
| YourValentine 01.02.2020 21:47 |
Bye, bye England. Thanks for fish and chips, warm beer and weird sausages. May the left lanes lead you into a shining tax heaven and business paradise for Boris and Donald. |
| brENsKi 01.02.2020 22:15 |
rockchic65 wrote:So have we left with a deal or no deal, does anyone know?when you say "we" you're implying you're in the UK. if this is the case then shame on you for not knowing after the last 3½yrs that we have officially left, but now the "future arrangement" is discussed. this is the "transition period" and runs up until Dec 31st 2020. if no trade deal has been agreed by that time - highly likely when you hear the demand from the unelected in Brussels, then at that point we would leave without a deal. if someone can tell me why "being bound by the european court" and "access to UK fishing waters" (EU demands) are reasonable demands for a deal, then I'm all ears. fact is, the eu sells more to uk than we do to the eu. therefore a zero-tariff trade deal is in their interests - without all these extra demands. how much wine and cheese do france and italy, and cars do germany think they'll sell to the uk when it all has a 25% duty levied? an italian MEP has really criticised Barnier and co today. the european council have - once again - postured beyond their own powers, and unless they dial down on this, they'll end up breaking their own project. maybe not now, but certainly within 5-10 years...it could all be gone. |
| rockchic65 01.02.2020 22:55 |
brENsKi wrote:Yeah I'm in the UK and I know we officially left yesterday but after Maybot's endless trips to Brussels with the same rejected deal I lost the will to live over the whole thing and stopped following the situation so I wasn't sure exactly where we were up to. I realized a while ago that aside from casting my vote I can't do a damn thing about any of it but I was just curious if a deal was anywhere near being struck since I wasn't closely following things.rockchic65 wrote:So have we left with a deal or no deal, does anyone know?when you say "we" you're implying you're in the UK. if this is the case then shame on you for not knowing after the last 3½yrs that we have officially left, but now the "future arrangement" is discussed. this is the "transition period" and runs up until Dec 31st 2020. if no trade deal has been agreed by that time - highly likely when you hear the demand from the unelected in Brussels, then at that point we would leave without a deal. if someone can tell me why "being bound by the european court" and "access to UK fishing waters" (EU demands) are reasonable demands for a deal, then I'm all ears. fact is, the eu sells more to uk than we do to the eu. therefore a zero-tariff trade deal is in their interests - without all these extra demands. how much wine and cheese do france and italy, and cars do germany think they'll sell to the uk when it all has a 25% duty levied? an italian MEP has really criticised Barnier and co today. the european council have - once again - postured beyond their own powers, and unless they dial down on this, they'll end up breaking their own project. maybe not now, but certainly within 5-10 years...it could all be gone. I won't pretend to know much about the ins and outs of the rest of it, I'm not exactly into politics tbh. |
| YourValentine 02.02.2020 09:35 |
@brenski - just to say a few words from EU perspective: England does not want a simple trade deal with one country, they want access to the single market of now 27 countries. The single market was created to enable the member countries to move goods, services and people freely within that market. Therefore, we have the same working rights, food and safety protection rules etc as the basis for this single market. You are either out or in the single market. If you are a third country and you want to trade with the single market you have to accept these rules or else you cannot move freely within that market, it's easy. If England now wants to be a tax haven, reduce worker rights and safety regulations and also wants to close their border to free movement from other EU countries, they cannot be part of the single market. They also cannot have trade deals with single member states because in the EU we all follow the rules of the single market (which is very beneficial for all of us). You say that England does not trade as much with the EU as the other way round. Half of England's trade goes to the EU but no EU country trades that much with England, it's because we are 27. Also, foreign companies in England must abide by EU rules if they want access to the single market. If England leaves the market, a Japanese company in England (for example) needs to leave the market as well - or they relocate into the remaining EU to ensure access to the single market. German companies in England are very alarmed about that. It will be very unfortunate to be in a third country so close to the EU. All of that was not invented to annoy the English, it's been a development which gives big and small EU countries more economical power in the world. For 47 years England was a part of it and helped to build that union. If they now leave they should not blame the remaining members. |
| brENsKi 02.02.2020 12:08 |
@yourvalentine i think you miss my points: "If we leave"??? I think you'll find we have already left. No one in the UK is blaming the remaining member states. We're blaming unelected officials making laws and taking arbitrary decisions without consultation. >> we don't want a single market style trade deal. we want a Canada-type deal. that's fine by us. >> you're making spurious claims about tax havens, and worker's rights. you forget that most of European equality laws came from laws originally passed in the UK - BEFORE the EU ever existed. >> I'm talking about the import/export balance with the EU as one Federalist state (which is how it considers itself). We the UK (not England as you state) export less to the EU than the EU exports to us. Therefore, any trade deal is of more interest to the main countries financing your bloc; Germany, France, italy - countries who just happen to be those exporting the most to the UK. These countries - especially your won (Germany) are not going to be able to sell their products to the Uk when they cost 25% more. How many Audis, Mercs and BMWs do you think you'll sell to the UK when they ALL cost 25% more? Further compounded by the USA alternatives suddenly becoming 25% cheaper - when our trade deals are struck outside of the EU shackles. The EU project is dead - not yet, but it's on its knees and gasping for air. why? >> your second largest financier (UK) has just left, someone has got to pick up the tab for the financial (£18bn) per year shortfall. Don't expect the poorer countries (Italy, Greece, Portugal) to contribute more, and don't expect your newer members to afford it either. France is in a mess (financially) which leaves just Germany. Can you imagine the reaction from Germans asked to pay more for everyone else? >> Your bloc has been trying (incredibly) unsuccessfully to strike a trade deal with the US - the problem being that 27 countries just can't agree. And they won't while a trade deal only ever benefits a few. >> immigration, the southern EU countries are not happy with immigration - and what how it has changed their unique identity. >> Merkel's legacy for Germany will be a bad one, she made a brave (but ill-considered) move to accept 900,000 immigrants. we possibly won't be around to see it die, but the EU is going to die - within 10 years. The UK has left, and other countries; especially those bullied by the non-elected EU into having a second referendum to overturn one "LEAVE" vote, will now start to rethink their position(s). Then there's the Eastern countries who want to leave anyway. - they'll take our lead and follow. People don't like being told how to live their lives by unelected rule-makers. What will be left will be ONE EU superstate: France, Germany, the Baltics and Ukraine, and that will wither on its own vine. Rant over. But really, we're better off out. Any mistakes, are ours to make and not that of some dictatorial bureaucrats in Brussels. We're constitutional Peasants (like the opening scene from Python's Holy Grail), and we're proud to have our identity and sovereignty back. One day, you'll see this too. |
| YourValentine 02.02.2020 12:56 |
You bring up a lot of new issues. I don't think the EU will die but I cannot look into the future, so we will have to see. Actually, Germans will have to pay more after Brexit but I don't think it will cause a public uproar, Germans are used to it. The majority in Germany thinks that EU gives us peace and a good relationship with our neighbours and therefore the money is justified. Like we are not half as concerned about the future of the car industry as English people seem to be. The big concern and danger to the Union is the alarming tendency to give up democratic principles in some Eastern countries which could in fact lead to a split of the EU. The hatred and spite versus the Syrian refugees let into the country in 2015 is beyond me. Yes, we have problems, yes the right wing extremists successfully addressed the xenophobia within our country and now we have a right wing problem on top but what exactly should we have done with a million people already in Austria and Hungary. That has nothing to do with the EU because the refugees are not EU citizens and cannot move freely to other EU countries. What I don't understand is how we can watch unmoved when thousands of poor men, women and kids live under inhumane conditions in tents on Greek islands and nobody helps them. What are our European values worth when we allow this to happen? I always find it funny when English people claim that the EU officials are unelected, no they are not unelected. The voting procedures should and must be improved and mainly the commission should be elected via the EU parliament and not be picked by the heads of national governments. However, the national governments were all elected in proper elections and have the authority and democratic legitimacy to act on behalf of their countries and thus the institutions are not "unlected" quite opposite to the House of Lords and the Queen of England who are not elected. I |
| Nathan H 02.02.2020 14:04 |
brENsKi wrote: @yourvalentine i think you miss my points: "If we leave"??? I think you'll find we have already left. No one in the UK is blaming the remaining member states. We're blaming unelected officials making laws and taking arbitrary decisions without consultation. >> we don't want a single market style trade deal. we want a Canada-type deal. that's fine by us. >> you're making spurious claims about tax havens, and worker's rights. you forget that most of European equality laws came from laws originally passed in the UK - BEFORE the EU ever existed. >> I'm talking about the import/export balance with the EU as one Federalist state (which is how it considers itself). We the UK (not England as you state) export less to the EU than the EU exports to us. Therefore, any trade deal is of more interest to the main countries financing your bloc; Germany, France, italy - countries who just happen to be those exporting the most to the UK. These countries - especially your won (Germany) are not going to be able to sell their products to the Uk when they cost 25% more. How many Audis, Mercs and BMWs do you think you'll sell to the UK when they ALL cost 25% more? Further compounded by the USA alternatives suddenly becoming 25% cheaper - when our trade deals are struck outside of the EU shackles. The EU project is dead - not yet, but it's on its knees and gasping for air. why? >> your second largest financier (UK) has just left, someone has got to pick up the tab for the financial (£18bn) per year shortfall. Don't expect the poorer countries (Italy, Greece, Portugal) to contribute more, and don't expect your newer members to afford it either. France is in a mess (financially) which leaves just Germany. Can you imagine the reaction from Germans asked to pay more for everyone else? >> Your bloc has been trying (incredibly) unsuccessfully to strike a trade deal with the US - the problem being that 27 countries just can't agree. And they won't while a trade deal only ever benefits a few. >> immigration, the southern EU countries are not happy with immigration - and what how it has changed their unique identity. >> Merkel's legacy for Germany will be a bad one, she made a brave (but ill-considered) move to accept 900,000 immigrants. we possibly won't be around to see it die, but the EU is going to die - within 10 years. The UK has left, and other countries; especially those bullied by the non-elected EU into having a second referendum to overturn one "LEAVE" vote, will now start to rethink their position(s). Then there's the Eastern countries who want to leave anyway. - they'll take our lead and follow. People don't like being told how to live their lives by unelected rule-makers. What will be left will be ONE EU superstate: France, Germany, the Baltics and Ukraine, and that will wither on its own vine. Rant over. But really, we're better off out. Any mistakes, are ours to make and not that of some dictatorial bureaucrats in Brussels. We're constitutional Peasants (like the opening scene from Python's Holy Grail), and we're proud to have our identity and sovereignty back. One day, you'll see this too.So you want the whole of Europe to suffer? If they suffer the UK will too because we'll have to make future agreements with them. We can't just survive on our own. This is so true: https://i.ibb.co/ScPHYQ7/LR-by-demographics.jpg" alt="LR-by-demographics" border="0" /> |
| brENsKi 02.02.2020 15:35 |
YourValentine wrote: I always find it funny when English people claim that the EU officials are unelected, no they are not unelected. The voting procedures should and must be improved and mainly the commission should be elected via the EU parliament and not be picked by the heads of national governments. However, the national governments were all elected in proper elections and have the authority and democratic legitimacy to act on behalf of their countries and thus the institutions are not "unlected" quite opposite to the House of Lords and the Queen of England who are not elected.@YourValentine, they are unelected. The chief posts on the EU council are appointed by three individuals. that is not elected, that is nepotism. These people get to make decisions and then when other countries - Ireland for example - vote to leave, these autocrats instruct them to vote again until they get it right. How democratic is that? It's dictatorial. The UK house of lords and the queen do not actually decide our laws, they scrutinse them and recommend amendments, but where a parliamentary democracy presides in the commons with Govt benches holding a healthy majority. any influence (perceived or otherwise) that the Lords may hold is negated. Young Music Fan wrote:So you want the whole of Europe to suffer? If they suffer the UK will too because we'll have to make future agreements with them. We can't just survive on our own.No. far from it. I would prefer the EU to succeed - but it is doomed, regrettably by it's reluctance to accept requests for operational change. And, you have missed a point here, we will not be alone. The UK will have the rest of the world to trade with, to grow again with and to forge relationships with. The EU will not, because 27 countries cannot agree universally (historically). It's a self-fulfilling failure - by default. "On our own" (Sinn Fein) - as (they) say in Ireland (I'm Irish/British) is the best way to be. A confident proud nation should always chart its own course, and make its own decisions. We will be Great (again). I also think the "peace" thing is a myth Barbara. There have been no wars, because no one wants a war, not because the EU as a concept makes it impossible. @Young Music Fan - your graphic doesn't really say much does it? Or it can say what YOU want it to say - or what I want it to say. Sure, the liberal-left (you know who I mean) the group of elite parliamentarians who spent three whole years subverting the largest democratic vote in our history - on the basis that "yes, you can have your vote, but WE know better". Sounds exactly like the EU telling Ireland and others to re-run their referendums until they get the "correct" result. present the time-worn argument that it was all racist, bigoted, old people that voted leave and that "they've had their lives and it was selfish voting", by people with no futures anyway. I would counter, that the older generation have the ACTUAL experience of the EU, the day-to-day life of what new laws and bureaucracy have done to our country. I would also say that all of those "old racist bigots" that the left-wing elite keep criticising may well be the ONLY people qualified to know what it's like, and they've very unselfishly voted leave to ensure their children/grandchild/great-grandchildren have the chance of a self-governing, better future. |
| SweetCaroline 02.02.2020 16:39 |
As everyone knows, I am not from the UK or the EU, but what stands out to me from this conversation is “the Baltics and Ukraine.” Sorry If I sound like a conspiracy nut, but I think the goal IS to weaken and completely destroy the European Union so that those right wing radicals can take over. |
| Saint Jiub 02.02.2020 19:51 |
SweetCaroline wrote: As everyone knows, I am not from the UK or the EU, but what stands out to me from this conversation is “the Baltics and Ukraine.” Sorry If I sound like a conspiracy nut, but I think the goal IS to weaken and completely destroy the European Union so that those right wing radicals can take over.LOL Do you even have any circumstantial evidence that might satisfy a conspiracy nut? |
| brENsKi 02.02.2020 23:05 |
SweetCaroline wrote: As everyone knows, I am not from the UK or the EU, but what stands out to me from this conversation is “the Baltics and Ukraine.” Sorry If I sound like a conspiracy nut, but I think the goal IS to weaken and completely destroy the European Union so that those right wing radicals can take over.yes you are - a conspiracy nut. there is NO GOAL to do anything, idiot. my reference to the Baltics and Ukraine is this: the Baltic states all joined together, so I would think the "three musketeers" would either stay together, or leave together. makes it harder to leave if there's a collective sub-group. Ukraine is not a member, but holds a special associate member status combined with a free trade deal. so, my conjecture is that - as others leave, Ukraine may actually fully join, and by consequence be one of the few remainers when the EU project finally expires. |
| Iron Butterfly 03.02.2020 03:49 |
SweetCaroline wrote: As everyone knows, I am not from the UK or the EU, but what stands out to me from this conversation is “the Baltics and Ukraine.” Sorry If I sound like a conspiracy nut, but I think the goal IS to weaken and completely destroy the European Union so that those right wing radicals can take over.You have lost the plot, full stop. |
| Chief Mouse 03.02.2020 08:29 |
The Baltics have no intention of leaving as far as I've noticed, being from there. The eurosceptic parties don't get elected (at least in my country) and the majority of people have no problems with being in the EU. To call us right wing radicals who would love to destroy Europe is quite something. |
| Iron Butterfly 03.02.2020 09:32 |
Chief Mouse wrote: The Baltics have no intention of leaving as far as I've noticed, being from there. The eurosceptic parties don't get elected (at least in my country) and the majority of people have no problems with being in the EU. To call us right wing radicals who would love to destroy Europe is quite something.SweetCaroline has no idea of how offensive, insulting she comes across. This isn't the first time she has wrongly judged people, and labelled a whole group of people. She may turn this around to Trump...just because. @ SweetCaroline...I think you owe an apology here. That's a fkd up statement you made, either way it's looked at. |
| SweetCaroline 03.02.2020 15:01 |
Chief Mouse, I certainly was not referring to the Baltics and Ukraine as the right wing radicals. Sorry if that is how it came across because I mean the exact opposite. My view is that Vladimir, Nigel, Boris and Donald are the right wing radicals who want to destroy the EU, NATO and reshape that area to their liking. I think the incursion into Ukraine and Brexit is part of their plan to restore the old Soviet Union. Vladimir wants the Baltic countries and Ukraine back under his rule. Am I wrong? Icy, as usual you are interfering in my business and sticking your nose where it doesn’t belong. Get out of my life! |
| Chief Mouse 03.02.2020 15:10 |
SweetCaroline wrote: Chief Mouse, I certainly was not referring to the Baltics and Ukraine as the right wing radicals. Sorry if that is how it came across because I mean the exact opposite. My view is that Vladimir, Nigel, Boris and Donald are the right wing radicals who want to destroy the EU, NATO and reshape that area to their liking. I think the incursion into Ukraine and Brexit is part of their plan to restore the old Soviet Union. Vladimir wants the Baltic countries and Ukraine back under his rule. Am I wrong? Icy, as usual you are interfering in my business and sticking your nose where it doesn’t belong. Get out of my life!The Baltics are afraid of Putin and whatever steps he could take, that's true. It's been quiet for a while now. A few years ago there were several instances of their "training" aircraft just happening to cross our airspace borders. |
| brENsKi 03.02.2020 15:28 |
SweetCaroline wrote: My view is that Vladimir, Nigel, Boris and Donald are the right wing radicals who want to destroy the EU, NATO and reshape that area to their liking.what utter tripe. You don't know the first thing about Boris, but I'll tell you anyway. He is not trying to destroy the EU - the guy only "moved to the Leave campaign" late in the day. why the fuck do left-wing radicals insist on calling anyone right of centre a radical? there are radicals (nutjobs) in European politics - but you'll be disappointed to hear that they are all on the left side of of the political divide. |
| SweetCaroline 03.02.2020 16:04 |
What about Poland? I keep hearing that the new leader and administration there are very far right! I kind of agree with Nancy Pelosi that with Trump, at least, “all roads lead to Russia!” Or Putin? |
| pittrek 03.02.2020 17:34 |
SweetCaroline wrote: What about Poland? I keep hearing that the new leader and administration there are very far right! |
| Iron Butterfly 03.02.2020 21:30 |
SweetCaroline wrote: Chief Mouse, I certainly was not referring to the Baltics and Ukraine as the right wing radicals. Sorry if that is how it came across because I mean the exact opposite. My view is that Vladimir, Nigel, Boris and Donald are the right wing radicals who want to destroy the EU, NATO and reshape that area to their liking. I think the incursion into Ukraine and Brexit is part of their plan to restore the old Soviet Union. Vladimir wants the Baltic countries and Ukraine back under his rule. Am I wrong? Icy, as usual you are interfering in my business and sticking your nose where it doesn’t belong. Get out of my life!Oh look, she brings up Trump, who would have ever expected that?? *sarcasm*.. As if the one thread full of your rages and conspiracies wasn't enough, you bring it to this one. I think you are always in such a rush to post that you do not care what is actually in your posts. You just tend to lash out. If I never said about an apology would have even thought about it? I think you are very uneducated about world events, it shows here in this thread and in the Trump one. You seriously think those 4 men are out to destroy the EU, NATO and then reshape the area to their liking, and seriously belive Brexit is a part of the plan to restore the old Soviet Union?? Wtf. How do you come to those conclusions, by what you read on Twiiter? I'm not in your life, you plainly messed up what you posted earlier, and even above I'm replying to you on a message board, it's what a message board is for. |
| Thistle 03.02.2020 22:19 |
I was an atheist until Trump. Now I can see the Antichrist is rising in the world of politics, as the prophecy, well, erm....prophesied. Since then, we've had great fires, pandemics and locust plagues. And the four-headed dragon is gearing up for war. The end of the world is Bill Nighy. |
| brENsKi 04.02.2020 07:07 |
to an extent, it's easy to see why Germany - the EU's biggest member state is also it's driving force. The Federalist and hugely undemocratic EU and a unified, Federal (FRD) (West Germany) and the undemocratric, "Demorcatic" (DDR) (East Germany) - make for ideal partners. A unified Germany leads a unified Europe. |
| YourValentine 04.02.2020 09:26 |
@Brenski - the DDR ceased to exist in 1990. The former member states joined our constitution and there is nothing undemocratic about Germany. In our country the chancellor and government are elected by a parliament that represents the majority of the voters. Much unlike England where the Prime Minister was not elected at all after Theresa May quit - he was appointed by your monarch without the need to be confirmed by the English people or the elected parliament. After the election in December the conservatives won the absolute majority in Parliament with only 43% of the votes which means that the majority of English voters has no representation in the government AT ALL, their votes were totally discarded. Maybe you should start at home when criticising democracy in other counties or the EU. |
| brENsKi 04.02.2020 12:15 |
YourValentine wrote:Much unlike England where the Prime Minister was not elected at all after Theresa May quit - he was appointed by your monarch without the need to be confirmed by the English people or the elected parliament. After the election in December the conservatives won the absolute majority in Parliament with only 43% of the votes which means that the majority of English voters has no representation in the government AT ALL, their votes were totally discarded. Maybe you should start at home when criticising democracy in other counties or the EU.Nothing wrong with our democracy. it's all founded on established law. if a party with a majority wants to change the parliamentary election procedure, then that's their right to do so. and no their votes were not discarded. did you not see what happened to Labour's Red Wall? it collapsed. it collapsed because even their own voters ad enough of their refusal to get on board with Brexit...so when it came to the polls they either voted Conservative or didn't vote at all - rather than vote Labour. The current mood suggests that had those none-voters voted Labour might have lost 10-12 more seats in the North. I wasn't making an allusion to anything. Just drawing parallels between the history of the EUs largest member, and the EUs own history. Coincidental also, that 2 years after German reunification, Maastricht rubberstamps further expansionism for the EU (EEC as was). as I said West Germany = Federal Republic / EU = Federal Union East Germany = "Democratic" Republic (DDR) / EU = undemocratic union. 1990 Germany gets bigger, then 1992 EU starts to grow in powers and (later on) take on more member states. Before you say the EU is democratic, there is NOTHING democratic about instructing countries who voted to leave the EU, to "vote again until they get it right". There's also nothing democratic at the so-called independent head of the EU council spending the last three years backing and encouraging UK Remainers to "keep fighting, it's not done yet" The EU's leaders/council have no desire or interest in respecting their citizen's opinions/votes and are only interested in their own (compulsory) integration agenda. This is a disgraceful way to treat the very people who pay their salaries. It's beyond contempt. |
| richrich 06.02.2020 13:34 |
@brenski: Fully agreed ^ |
| brENsKi 06.02.2020 14:59 |
richrich wrote:@brenski: Fully agreed ^shitting hell!! then I must be wrong. |