|Hello Fellow Book Lovers
I've read several books about Freddie and Queen and thought others would like to discuss. Think of this as a mini book club, all devoted to discussing books about Freddie and Queen.
So far I've read:
- Peter Freestone's 2 books about Freddie
- Jim Hutton's book ("Mercury & Me")
- Peter "Ratty" Hince's book ("Queen Unseen")
- Matt Richards/Mark Langthorne ("Somebody To Love")
Next I will be reading:
- David Evans/David Minns ("This Was The Real Life")
Please join in!
|hey hey NeverTooLate thanks for starting this :)
I have read both Peter Freestone's books, Jim Hutton's book, Peter 'Ratty' Hince's book, Matt Richards (somebody to Love ) Marc Blake's book (forgotten what it is called) , Lesley Ann Jones and Laura Jackson. Yep I went a bit crazy lol. Oh and I have Queen in 3D by Brian May .
I now know not to trust the book written by Lesley Ann Jones and Laura Jackson and also Somebody to Love . Although SBTL has lots of information about AIDS it also has a lot of inaccurate information. For example Freddie did not sleep with John Murphy and 'm pretty sure the person they label as patient zero, isn't actually patient zero. I think they used Lesley Ann Jones' book for a lot of their information.
You will enjoy This was the real Life :)
Thanks for joining.
I appreciated the interspersing of the AIDS info in "Somebody To Love" (SBTL) as I think it's important to get HIV info out in any way possible, but I agree that speculation about who FM got the virus from was futile and anything proposed that cannot be verified is wholly unfair to all.
[ On a side note: obviously "Patient Zero" (identified incorrectly as Gaëtan Dugas) couldn't have been the first to get AIDS because he got it from someone else. The virus was scientifically traced back to as early as 1908 and the virus we know today as HIV1 started as SIV (Simian Immunodeficiency Virus) which affected multiple non-human primate species. The virus passed to humans, most likely through bushmeat hunters around the turn of the last century, who would have been in contact with infected simian blood. There's a lot of history and science around that topic and tons of good reading info for those who wish to delve into all of that.]
I also have Mark Blake's book ("This Is the Real Life") but haven't read it yet and it's further down the queue. The titles between Blake and Evans/Minns book is confusing because they are so similar, but I have both books.
I want to join in :)
I have read Phoebe's first book and the second is in the queue.
Mark Blake's books about Queen and Freddie
And most appreciated is Mercury: in his own words by Greg brooks
David Minn's This was the real life is also great. Not only the part written by David Minn's but also all the lovely memories by other people. It gave me the best picture about Freddie and for me personally it's fascinating how all these people described Freddie in the same way - as a shy, hunble, generous and loyal person. You know, one person writing a biography can be biased, can have inaccurate information, can lie in some way, but when 20 people see the person in the same way, you simply have to believe that's the way he really was. And I love how Freddie was seen by his friends.
|oh yes I forgot that I have also read Mercury in his own words.
It was nice reading 'this is the real life' as you say Mika everyone described Freddie as you have said. I did really feel for David Minns as I believe Freddie really broke his heart. David was the one to say 'no' when Freddie said he had enough love for the both of them; David and Joe. I believe he felt David would stay in his life just as Mary had. Luckily David knew that mentally it just wouldn't work .
Freddie to me was very much affected by the stardome at that point and was I'd say a little arrogant. He seemed to really mature as he got older.
|oh poo, I forgot you haven't read it yet NeverToo Late....apologies :(
|Mercury and Me
I was deeply affected by this book. I surprised myself as I reread it and felt great upset towards Freddie for messing Jim around at the beginning. When he flew Jim out to Munich and then announced he was off to Winnie's , well I didn't like that lol. I know Jim eventually gave Freddie an ultimation , boy do I hope he give him a good strong ultimation; carry on and I am out of here, I'm not putting up with it !!
I have been surprised at the feelings it evoked in me. Hence I have a big soft spot for Jim .
|Actually I don't really know what to think of Mercury and me. Not because it should be too private but it was written by a journalist from News of the world. Jim told the story to him and he wrote it. So it's not a "first hand" source and even Peter Freestone admited some things were not very accurate. But I still like it.
I absolutely refuse to read Lesley Jones' book and it really annoys me that this is the only book available in the stores right now in my country as the "best biography of FM." making money of BoRhap movie hysteria. And everybody buys it like mad and praise it as a fantastic book.
doughnut wrote: Mercury and Me I was deeply affected by this book. I surprised myself as I reread it and felt great upset towards Freddie for messing Jim around at the beginning. When he flew Jim out to Munich and then announced he was off to Winnie's , well I didn't like that lol. I know Jim eventually gave Freddie an ultimation , boy do I hope he give him a good strong ultimation; carry on and I am out of here, I'm not putting up with it !! I have been surprised at the feelings it evoked in me. Hence I have a big soft spot for Jim .I have to admit, I would love to have a conversation with Freddie about love and relationships. Because it seems his general view of love was quite unique. I don't know if it comes from childhood spent alone without the family but he really wasn't a conventional partner. I crave for some answers which I probably won't get.
|Hi all <
I've read most of the books mentioned here and I agree somewhat about Mercury and Me. I love reading Jim's perspective but I do wonder how much was actually in his words. I do think some of the personal/embarrassing details could have been left out and I do think they were probably pushed by the journalist who wrote the book.
mika251, I am also fascinated by Freddie's view of relationships. I think there was an interview in 1987 where he discussed this somewhat (I have to dig it up on youtube to get the exact wording). I think it was with David Wigg, the one where he was talking about having found his "niche". He said something about realizing a "one to one" would never work for him and he had to abandon that idea and realize his life would be more of a "one to one to one" kind of thing, and that he accepted that and was finally fine with it. He didn't express himself that clearly but I think he was saying he is not the kind of person who could have one monogamous relationship that would give him everything he needed (love, companionship, sex, friendship, conversation, etc), even though he had spent his life searching for that. So he surrounded himself with a small group of people who, collectively, gave him what he needed.
|Mika , I too would love to have that conversation.
All I'll say on the help Jim had and this is also what Peter said, the recounts were all from Jim as otherwise there wouldn't have been a book, it is Jims story of his time with Freddie. Try not to focus on the help Jim had as I don't think Peter said things were not accurate , more senualized . I have tried to figure out what parts this may be and I can only assume the sex life part maybe or the rows they had. He goes on to say that Jim would never had said anything to darken Freddie's name although to be fair I have seen Peter say a lot about Freddie's sex life over the years.
I watched a UK youtube video yesterday and Peter was on it, it made me feel so sad. He said that Freddie was very promiscuous, as we know , he would often end up with a man most nights and Freddie knew that they were with him because of who he was but he didn't care as he got what he wanted. To me that is so sad and lonely in a way.
The part where he talks about having a one to one is from an interview with David Wigg in 1986. In it Freddie said he was very content and Jim said that Freddie told him he was referring to him but kept to the 'i'm not in a relationship type talk to protect Jim. Thor said they were equally protective of each other.
I took the one to one comment as he couldn't just live with Jim, he would need more people around him and that is why he moved Peter, Joe and Jim into Garden Lodge. I also took it that at this point he had realised that if he wanted to keep Jim in his life, he needs to change.
The part where he says 'I have finally found the niche I have been looking for all my life' was the interview with David Wigg in 1987.
|Mika what country are you in ?
doughnut wrote: Mika what country are you in ?Same as Phoebe :) Czech Republic.
|There is also an interview with David Wigg in 1985, about his solo plans and there are several bits on YouTube and in one of them he really opens up speaking about love and how it affects him but unfortunately it is finished literally in the middle of sentence! I have a crazy idea to contact David and ask for the rest :)
|Mika I really feel you and me are alike as I wish I could contact any and everyone who knew Freddie to get to the bottom of his life and relationships . Actually that is what lead me to this site. Freddie had an annoying habit of starting a sentence and then starting another mid way through ...arrrrr he did this a lot in his 1986/1987 david wigg interviews
have you met Phoebe and what is it like in the Czech Republic?
Actually it wasn't Freddie who didn't finish his sentence, the whole recording is just cut in the middle of his sentence. I don't have a clue why and where is the rest! ??
This thread actually inspired me to listen to his interviews with David in 85/86/87 and man he was really special. Can't get enough of his voice and opinions.
Back to books before I start to be too sentimental :)
I agree with you, it is very important to get as many sources as possible, but real sources I mean people who really knew him. Every memory is a small treasure and makes the whole picture of a human being. And actually I'm really glad that they also speak about his weaknesses because this makes him real.
Yesterday I went through Ask Phoebe blog and found some interesting insight into Freddies refusal to believe that some of "friends" weren't real friends. And on the other side he simply stopped talking to people when he felt betrayed by them without giving them a chance to explain the situation. This creates a picture of his whole personality and helps to understand how he really was.
What do you think about Peter Hince's book? It is quite a unique piece. I laughed so hard when reading it that I had to stop to read it in public because people thought I'm crazy.
I have never met Phoebe and our country is quite boring actually, but still a great place to live. But I still don't get why Phoebe choose this place on Earth to live in :)
In his '86 interview David ask him how does the crowd affect him and Freddie answers he looks at the bank balance and both of them laugh.
My English is not good enough I simply didn't get it. What does it mean? Money darling? :)
|Nevertolate - good idea of the book thread.
I have read most of the books mentioned - but my problem is they are all digital - which was economical, but it's hard to go back to reference things. It would be much easier to flip through pages to find what I am looking for.
I am still reading the Minns/Evans book.
I did buy the Somebody To Love bio in paperback. After reading about the inaccuracies, I don't know what's true or not.
I really liked Mercury and Me. I've read a lot of reviews from people who thought it was a "kiss and tell" book, but I just don't see it that way. I suppose when it was published relatively close after Freddie's death- many were angered. I just wonder how much of this stemmed around the fact that some didn't want to accept Freddie as being gay.
Also, after I read the part in the book when they exchanged wedding bands, I always look for the ring on Freddie's finger in his interviews!!
Finally got started on the David Evans/David Minns book today.
My favorite so far has been Jim Hutton's book and I didn't think it was too intrusive into their lives. He told it how it was from his perspective and I respect that. I didn't have a preconceived notion of Freddie's life, so there was no particular image I needed to have validated. I want and accept the truth, regardless of what it is.
I don't take anything written about Freddie personally, as I am not him nor did I know him. Those that did know him may have different opinions on what he was like simply due to the nature of their individual relationships with him. Freddie was a complicated man; he wasn't all sweetness and light, he wasn't all just one or 2 things.
|To anyone who has been looking for the book Freddie Mercury: The Great Pretender, A Life in Pictures, it is back in stock on the official Queen website
Also, this is the link to order Peter Freestone's cookbook
|The list of books I've read:
1. Both of Phoebe's books
2. Jim Hutton's book
3. Ratty's book
4. Somebody To Love (do not read this book)
5. The Virtuoso in The Closet 1&2 (fiction story about Freddie's early life. It is very good and the author really did her research)
6. Queen in Cornwell (about one of Queen's first tours after Freddie joined Brian and Roger and changed the name from Smile. The tour was partially arranged by Roger Taylor's mum)
7.Queen: The Early Years (tells how each member first began in music up and came together. Continues through about 1975 )
8. Life on Two Legs (this is written by Norman Sheffield, the manager the band had at the beginning for whom Freddie wrote the song Death on Two Legs)
9. This Was The Real Life (David Evans&Minns book)
*Though not a book, I also recommend Peter Freestone's blog Ask Phoebe. There is a lot of information there. One of the things I found there is he disputes the long running rumor the Freddie had 4 extra teeth. He says that, nope, Freddie only had the standard 32.
This is actually very interesting I have read it too in his blog and I was quite confused. He is the only one who says that the 4 extra teeth story isn't true. Who knows. The matter of fact is, third molars when not extracted are often too much to fit in the mouth. I would rather believe 4 extra teeth were simply wisdom teeth and they probably grew at a very young age, which is unusual.
|mike I have attached a link to the transcribed interviews. Maybe the cut out part is here.
Also when Freddie says 'i look at my bank balance' he means he looks at how much money he has got. He was being flippant in saying I look at the crowd and see how much money I am making from being in queen.
I read somewhere, maybe his blog, that he moved to the C Republic to get away from all things Freddie. It seems he was still struggling with his loss at that time but as we now know he has fully embraced that Freddie will always be part of his life. Bless him .
I also read Death on Two Legs. I found it interesting to read that situation from Norman's point of view.
I am starting 'The Virtusoso in the closest - part 1' today.
I have been thinking about buying 'The Great Pretender'. I have found it on amazon uk for £14
emdee you can't beat having a book of pages to flick though .
I too like Peter Hince's book. He certainly got himself into some situations lol. I can understand why he decided to stop as it seems such hard work although there were lots of positives from being a roadie with Queen. I like the part where Freddie asks him what gift he would like LOL. Was it a record player or something lol.
Again the end was interesting from Freddie's character point of view. I think Phoebe has said that Freddie did not like confrontation or suchlike so I feel that is why he didn't approach Peter about his plans to leave . This is also evident as he got someone else to tell David Minns their relationship was over and Mary/Joe to tell Jim to move out.
|sorry meant mika :) not mike
I have a lot of catching up to do after a hectic start to the weekend.
I think I love Phoebe's books best of all then Jim's then More of the Real Life.
I agree David Minn's seemed heart broken at the break-up, and Freddie did behave pretty badly toward him. I certainly wouldn't have stood for it. Freddie was a very, very complex creature. Highly strung, and I think deeply affected by that "upheaval of an upbringing" He certainly had separation issues, and speaking from the POV of someone who was a complicated child with difficulty making social connections to other humans, I too have a tendency to push people into a space I'm comfortable with. I tend to reject people before they can reject me. I think Freddie, in those days especially, pushed people to the limit to see how far they'd be pushed. Not nice, not kind, but a sign of insecurity, I think.
Somebody to Love was an interesting read to learn about the evolution of HIV, but as someone who has made a study of Fredie, many statements within it (many almost copied and pasted from Ms. Jones's book!) We're glaringly erroneous.
The authors also made some alwparmjng conclusions with little or no historic or scientific evidence. Such as Gaetan Sugar being Patient O (and that's the letter "O" not 0 as in zero! That is what the initial title that was given to the first known patient who contracted and was a vector for the virus was called. Somebody just thought zero sounded more dramatic!) and making assumptions about precisely when Freddie contracted HIV (around the SNL performance when they assumed Freddie was hoarse due to a flu-like illness, supposedly an indicator that he had been exposed to the virus in the previous weeks when we know the hoarseness was due to a screaming match with Bill Reid!)
Then to say he likely caught the virus from John Murphy who he never had sex with, who in turn caught the virus from Gaetan Dugas. Pure fiction! We cannot know when Freddie was unfortunate to contract the HIV virus, as incubation period is not exact.
Nor can we tell who passed the virus to him. Let's be honest , our boy had a very promiscuous period to his life, as did most rock stars, especially then, and anyway, you could have sex with only one person in your whole life, but if that one person was infected, then there's your method of contracting it. Nobody should assume or judge.
Has anyone read Rick Sky's book The Show Must Go On ? It's not the best book I've read, and has a rather too dramatic tasteless start, but there are some interesting anecdotes in there including from Tony Pike.
Gotta go look at starting to make the dinner now, folks!
Hope you all have a good day.
Bye for now
thanks a lot for the link, I know about this site and this particular interview isn't included - it isn't included in the solo collection box as well. I don't know why.
I mean this part:
at the end he explains, when it comes to love, everybody is equal, doens't matter if you are a rock star or a butcher. But he has to prove it, speaks he has to try so hard to show he is normal, he has to overcompensate his rock star status. I think he quite made a point. And then he continues and the video is cut. Damn! :)
You made a good point with Peter's deciding to leave and Freddie's reluctance to speak about it. I mean he was such a coward :D A can imagine living in this time, he would be exactly this type of person who writes an SMS to end a relationship :)
I like Peter's book because he wasn't an ultimate fan and also not a very close friend. So his perspective is quite interesting and so to say "healthy".
The person I would like to read more is Crystal, Roger's roadie. He made some good points in David Minn's book and there are several stories on the internet and I laughed for hours reading them. he and Roger together, it was apparently a dangerous combination :)
Real books are much better than ebooks for me too. I like to write notes and go back and read some parts again which is much easier with a real book in hand. Sadly there are not many available, or the price is too high. But once there will be a reprint, I will definitely buy them.
Have you read all the books in English? (if English is not your native language). I have read also some Czech translations and it was a disaster.
I think you hit the nail on its head with separation issue. This itself would be hard enough but you have a to add an "I can do what I want" rock- star attitude and let's say little exaggerated sexual appetite and voilà - try to handle this!
|Mika I am English and a stereo typical english person who can only read English lol.
which books are you looking for ?
I have read Crystal's posts, very amusing. He and Roger used to get up to all sorts lol. He should def write a book. I think he was quite close with Freddie.
I read some comments from Tony Pike in Laura Jackson's book . He was very complimentary about Jim as was the man who worked with Montserrat (can't remember his name) .
Read Munich 1984 part 1 as that is the interview you are looking for.
|I am going to continue reading Somebody to Love - just half way through when I realized the errors thanks to everyone on this forum. I find myself reading the endnotes so I can at least have an idea of credible sources.
It looks like I am going to need to read Ratty's book- I like the fact it's from someone not quite within the tight inner circle.
I also started the The Virtuoso- I am enjoying that. Those that have read that series- is her book a more accurate account of Freddie's life than Leslie Jones biography?
When looking on the ask Phoebe blog- does anyone have a particular favorite they would suggest? I just pick a number- probably not the way to read it :)
Also- thanks to everyone sharing their knowledge of Freddie- I am learning so much!!
|oh my...nobody mentioned the sex in Virtuoso lol
This is another one, BUT he says something very similar. My interview was really done in 1985 and most famous quotes are "the bigger the better" and "I can make bigger bang than that" and "not easy to replace me" It was acutally pretty long I think :)
It seems David Wigg offered this toppic quite often and Freddie really opened up sometimes.
Laura Jackson's book - is to worth to read? Or is it the same crap as Leslie Jones? This one is missing in my collection.
Almost all my books are e-books except for Peter Hince, which I have as a paperbook edition with 0 (zero!!!) photographs - I think it's quite a shame considering it was written by a photographer. But I know there are some very interesting photos in other editions.
Some of printed versions are available here, but all in Czech language. I have made my experience and I'm definitely not interested, because the translation is simply horrible.
I had to buy a Czech version of "As it began" Jackie Gunn as there is no ebook available. There were several flops, the biggest at the end, when Freddie himself makes a statement about his AIDS status in front of his house to all journalists 24 hours before he died. I culdn't believe my eyes.
I also read Phoebe's first book in Czech before I bought the English version and it was even worse. After reading several chapters I thought - "this is the person who knew him the best?" There were several contradictory statemens, factual errors and absolute rubbish e.g. "Queen always wanted to play their songs in concerts exactly the same as on the records". And you think what??? You spent 12 years with them and you write this? I was totally dissappointed. Then I found the blog and found out Phoebe is really very nice and well informed guy. Then I bough the English version and it was completely different.
So not even you have to be carefull when picking up the right author, you also have to learn English because there is always a big danger that many things get lost in translation.
|I'd like to suggest we keep the fan fiction type stories off of this thread and just stick to published books, if that's okay with everyone?
|I love ebooks as I can start reading on one device and bookmark the page and pick right up from another device. I make notes, I highlight passages, which are captured in a notes section and link back to the original place in the book, I can look up any words I don't know, and I can have hundreds (actually thousands) of books on a small eReader or tablet or any device that allows the loading of ebook software.
I'm in the first few chapters of "This Was The Real Life," specifically the David Evans section at the beginning of the book.
|I would skip Laura Jackson as she is another one who didn't really know Freddie, I bought the book before I realized .
My Peter HInce book has no photos even though it should have...I'm annoyed about this
I would like 'Queen - as it began but it is out of print and versions for sale are really expensive. I'm hoping it will be reprinted since Queen have become very popular since the film came out.
I noticed that David Wigg seems to ask him about relationships a lot. There is a clip of a david wigg interview where he asks Freddie if he can print that his relationship is with a man. Freddie says 'no, you mustn't, I said I'm happy in my relationship and that's it'.
It seems Freddie wasn't happy with what the Express printed from the 1987 Ibiza interview. Peter and Jim both said it put a spanner in the works of their friendship and he didn't do another interview with him.
|NeverToo Late I am not really into fan fiction but the books recommended are helping me understand better what Freddie must have been going through when he was with Mary and hiding his sexuality.
|I like old books, the ones from 1976. I find them less 'infected' by fanon and less into blowing up legends and rumours to make them look more spectacular. For instance, one of those early band bios mentions Everett played 'Bo Rhap' four times - not fourteen - as they were saying what actually happened instead of perpetuating the false myth (which, at the time, didn't yet exist).
|There's this very droll passage in David Evans' book where he describes meeting Freddie for the first time:
"One night in 1974, a large boat-like Daimler limousine pulled up outside my house in Werter Road, off Putney High Street. Werter Road only saw limousines at funerals. David, my flat mate, came in with a very exotic flower. Thin and pinched with nervous lips covering a positive horde of unmissable ivory gnashers, long stringy back-combed blue-black hair, eye make-up, one hand painted with black nail varnish, this visitor arrived wearing a raggedy grey fox-fur jacket which he didn’t take off. Tacky beyond belief, the new arrival was heralded as lead singer in a rock band. I’m glad he was. He looked as though he was still wearing his stage clothes. Surprisingly and rather awkwardly, we shook hands and in his there was a prickly hairbrush. I felt like Queen Mary receiving a rather confused and embarrassed Indian Maharani.”
Excerpt From: David Evans. “THIS WAS THE REAL LIFE”
|You can't go wrong with Phil Sutcliffe's huge illustrated unofficial book - great objective criticism from different writers, celeb inserts and eyewitness stories, useful timelines and
Oh, you're only interested in how much dick Freddie got.
|"There is a clip of a david wigg interview where he asks Freddie if he can print that his relationship is with a man. Freddie says 'no, you mustn't, I said I'm happy in my relationship and that's it'.
Doughnut, were you able to find an audio of this particular conversation? Because it isn't in 1987 Ibiza interview in Solo box where he is speaking about his "niche" so it was probably cut off.
I have read about it somwhere but I didn't find the primary source.
And yes, that was sadly the last interview with David and I think there was only one interview with Queen in 1989 and that's it.
I was also trying to find the article which made Freddie so upset but not success. Queenarchives.com is not working anymore.
As it began in English is out of stock. It is on my list too, meanwhile I have purchased a Czech version. Phoebe mentioned this is the only Queen - biography Freddie read. It is very interesting reading as it was written before his death but finished right after so there is no single hint about his health issue except for the last chapter. Quite schizofrenic :)
|I like very much "Mercury And Me".
I also like "Ask Phoebe" blog.
Not a book but I recently read blog by girl from Prague, (Mika, she is from your country, maybe you know her?), fan of Freddie and Queen. She wrote interesting things about meeting Jim and Phoebe. I like it. Blog about Jim is very interesting and sad.
If anyone has not read this blog, here is the link: http://terezavin.blogspot.com/?m=1
|Freddie pulled a stunt (2x) with Jim, about 4 years apart, in which he told him to leave/move out of his house. Now that's fine, it was Freddie's house, afterall, but each time Jim came back and they continued on and they worked it out or at least let it go.
What bothered me about it is having a domicile at risk, the risk being the whims of the owner of said house, an owner who was known to be emotional and "mercurial" seems like a lot of risk. Yes all's fair in love, etc., I certainly do know that, and I have no doubt F & J loved each other.
HOWEVER, I don't think I would have ever fully been able to trust someone had they done that to me once, let alone twice. I'd at least want my own pad, be it a rental of some kind, or ownership of a flat, but *something* so that I wouldn't have to worry if the winds of whim blew again and I was told to get out. Plus the whole, "oh and you can't use the car that was purchased for you."
And consider Jim was kicked out of Garden Lodge 3 times (twice from Freddie, albeit temporarily) and then finally forever after Freddie died, by Mary. They had their reasons, but thinking of it from Jim's standpoint, that's a lot of being "kicked out," ya know?
Mika... click on this link and it should give you the short clip of David and Freddie. I think the clip is from that awful documentary with the Australian Freddie lookalike.
NeverTooLate...not sure if you saw my comments yesterday but I was quite cross that Jim got chucked out . It annoyed me as it seemed Jim just went running back so easily although I appreciate that there was probably more to it, at least I hope so ! On one occasion Freddie employed double standards when he chucked Jim out for not making it home. Gosh that really got me cross.
I wouldn't be able to trust someone if they did that to me which I feel is why I got so cross. I am pleased to note that he did seem to keep the car after Freddie's death.
If I could speak with Jim I would like to ask him why he put up with it. Why did he put himself through the emotional heartache.
PS I am a big Jim fan for anyone reading, I am not anti Jim, I have a big soft spot for him.
Invisible woman I just read the blog about Jim, gosh it made me sad. I am sure I read that Freddie had told someone during a phone call that Jim was happy to die. The poor guy :(
What do you think of 'is this the real life'?
|Peter not Freddie
Invisible Woman wrote: I recently read blog by girl from Prague, (Mika, she is from your country, maybe you know her?), fan of Freddie and Queen. She wrote interesting things about meeting Jim and Phoebe.Thank you, Invisible Woman! I read the 2 entries that young woman wrote about meeting Jim and getting to know him a little more over the next few years. How sad it was for him that last year of his life; I hope he and Freddie have been reunited.
|Maybe it won't be a popular opinion here, but I'm not so radical in saying "poor Jim kicked out of the house, how could he deal with this heartache."
I have two points on this:
First - we only know the story from Jim's POV. I'm not saing he didn't tell the whole truth. But maybe when Freddie would tell us the story, we would say - "oh you are completely right to kick him out".
Most probably we wouldn't say that, but ... we don't know what really happened. What went through Freddie's head. So yes, it definitely wasn't nice but there are always two in a relationship and the truth is somewhere in the middle.
Which leads me to the second point.
Maybe I'm biased with my personal experience, but sometimes things look completely different as they really are. I'm in a marriage which is far from ideal. I'm really temperamental a I have said and written things to my husband - when somebody from outside would read it, he would say - oh, she completely hates him, why does she stay with him (which isn't true for most of the time, but what would you think if you would just read this one letter which I wrote in anger)? The relationship is such a complex thing, that you really can't pick up one or two situations and make a conclusion. Because there are so many things hidden, not spoken, just felt and only these two persons in this relationship can understand how things really are. And even within a relationship one can completely misunderstand the other. In such a relationship things can change in a minute, it's like a roller coaster ride and you simply go from one extreme to another. Is it healthy? Definitely not but it is all we have and we have to live it. In my case, after 11 years together, we didn't kill each other which is quite a surprise :)
And I feel that Jim simply understood this temperamental part of Freddie's character and he knew, he doesn't have to take everything too seriously. That's how he got through this situation and was able to stay and trust Freddie again because at the end, Freddie wanted him to stay. He got through his phase "I don't need you anymore" and moved to phase "Please stay". I kind of understand it and maybe Jim understood it too. Sometimes you musn't listen to the words but to the heart.
And that's why I have so many problems to say after reading all the books written by anybody - "They definitely loved each other" or "They definitely didn't love each other". I can believe one or another, but I can't know for sure. Because all the situations written in a book are just snippets, tiny, miniature pieces of an everyday life and we are far from knowing the truth. I have big respect for Jim, because Freddie was definitely a very complicated partner. But as far as I don't know the story from Freddie's POV, I don't make any judgements.
Here are my 2 psychological pennies I hope I didn't upset you too much :)
|Good discussion and points, MIKA251,
I recognized as I was reading Jim's book that any feelings I had did not represent how Jim felt and maybe my feelings and reactions were opposite of his. Relationships can be challenging and difficult, and there can be cycles where a couple is in sync and getting along all the way to don't want to be in the same town as each other. I have no insight nor claim to when it comes to FM and his various relationships.
I'm taking Jim H's story at face value, meaning I'm choosing to believe what he wrote since I have no reason or evidence that conflicts with what he wrote.
The trigger for me (and I admit this is *my* trigger) is the notion of being told to leave/get out/move somewhere else. Jim had no rights since he was living as FM's boyfriend and then his gardener. He was living in Freddie's house because of his romantic relationship with Freddie. And he could be kicked out since it wasn't his home, despite Freddie telling him multiple times, "this is your home too." Has nothing to do with love or who's a great guy or anything else. It was the simple truth of the matter and it was an area of vulnerability for Jim.
For me it was "Woah, just a minute now! Everyone needs a place to call home where they can control their space and count on that consistently being there and not subject to a partner's whim." It represented something important, something I thought important, even if Jim didn't think it was a big deal. So that stood out to me because it was something that happened more than once and it brought up a reaction within myself. Hope that makes sense.
|You made a good point.
But I think the issue with the house isn't that uncommon. It happens in many relationships when you don't buy your living place together, but one simply moves in to the another's flat or house - and there come all the problems with "where can I give my stuff? - Ehm, there is not enough place for it, put it in the cellar" and "I really hate this style but it was there before I came so I cannot change it" etc. It takes quite a lot of time until you feel at home there and once the relationship is over, the owner will stay and the other one has to move out.
I happens all the time.
Ehm... weren't we supposed to talk about books? :D
|Mika and Nevertolate - Please continue your discussion - I find it very interesting. And it does relate to the Mercury and Me book.
All my books are on a Kindle and although I have read most of them I am trying to read them - unfortunately all at the same time.
No one will ever know the true feelings of Freddie and his relationships, that is true, but I view it as a giant puzzle, trying to put all the pieces together. Unfortunately, this puzzle has some missing pieces.
Invisible woman - thanks for the link.
To open another can of worms - was it Jim's book that hinted Mary might have had something to do with one of Jim's exits?
Oh, this is a really big can of worms :)
But yes you are right.
I think even Phoebe in his blog mentioned something? I'm not completely sure.
I think (again this is what I believe) Mary had her own HUGE bag of feelings and issues which influenced her behaviour. I won't judge her and I understand it at some point. I don't say it was right and I'm not trying to detent her. I just understand.
emdee0809 wrote: To open another can of worms - was it Jim's book that hinted Mary might have had something to do with one of Jim's exits?He hinted that *someone* or maybe more than 1 person was influencing Freddie on the Jim matter, and he even came out and point blank asked Freddie the second time he was ousted out of the house, "so whose advice did you follow," and Freddie claims he followed his own advice. Freddie wasn't going to throw Mary or anyone else who was pushing the matter, under the bus.
No doubt there was some competition for Freddie's attention and general pecking order/standing, and as Freddie's live-in lover, Jim would have been perceived as having power even if he didn't and never tried to push an agenda. We know now that Mary had a set of feelings about the various guys in the house that weren't clearly known until after Freddie died. I'm not saying *she's* the one who tried to encourage FM to push Jim out, but it would make sense that she could have been.
|One thing Mary did have an issue with was when Freddie decided he was going to give Jim a raise.
Jim writes: "Freddie told me he was going to increase my wages from £600 to £1000 per month. Sadly, my wage rise was the reason for an argument between Freddie and Mary. The accountants were on holiday, so Freddie had to sign the monthly pay cheques. I had never questioned how much I was paid. I knew that Joe and Phoebe were paid more, but they were on duty twenty-four hours a day. I never wanted to know exactly what they were paid; it was none of my business.”
Excerpt From: Jim Hutton. “Mercury and Me.”
I understand your reluctance to include fan fiction in books about Freddie, but I feel the Virtuoso in The Closet is an exception. The books are very well researched and based on facts and people that we know about Freddie's life. Of course the dialogue is fictionalized, but I think it is a worthy read that allows you to empathize through the character George what Freddie was going through while simultaneously trying to come to terms with his sexuality and break into the music business.
|NeverTooLate, thanks for starting the book club! I've read the following:
Peter Freestone's 1st book
Jim Hutton's "Mercury and Me"
Brian May's "Queen in 3-D"
"Ask Phoebe" blog
I'm awaiting Ratty's "Queen Unseen" via Amazon. Back in Dec., it was unavailable. I'm eager to read David Evans and David Minns "This Was the Real Life" on Kindle next. My sister agreed to order it for me and loan me her Kindle. She rolled her eyes when I told her it was a book about Freddie Mercury. She calls it "my obsession." LOL
I have a question. Is it the same David Evans from "This Was the Real Life" the same David Evans as contributor for Peter Freestone's 1st book?
|Doughnut, I understand what your trying to say about the interview.
|That David Minns book has alot of info but they sure fought alot.How reliable is it?
|Same reliability as all other books written by someone close to Freddie. They all wrote their stories, from.their POV. The truth is somewhere in the middle.
Yes it is the same David Evans.
|And I feel that Jim simply understood this temperamental part of Freddie's character and he knew, he doesn't have to take everything too seriously. That's how he got through this situation and was able to stay and trust Freddie again because at the end, Freddie wanted him to stay. He got through his phase "I don't need you anymore" and moved to phase "Please stay". I kind of understand it and maybe Jim understood it too. Sometimes you musn't listen to the words but to the heart.
Mika thank you for this as it has helped me try and see if from a different view point. Like NeverTooLate has said, from what is written it seems my feelings on the issue are different to what Jim's were and this is what frustrates me.
I feel the way the book is written in parts doesn't help. It annoying that JIm tells us an important part regarding Freddie's treatment of him and then doesn't explain it fully. To me it reads 'we had a row, we made up, and then the story changes direction. I would have liked him to explore his/ their feelings following the big row; why it happened and how Jim felt and if possible Freddie's explanation of why he did it.
When Freddie chucked him out because he didn't come home , well this was such double standards. Jim had from his POV seen another man leave Freddie's flat and yet this was totally disregarded following Freddie's decision to ask him to leave. Again I feel we needed more explanation of how this resolved this.
I will say in Freddie's defence that Peter has said that Freddie often needed to create situations so that he could work out how he felt. Maybe when he told Jim to 'f off' at the very beginning, it was his way of trying to find out how he really felt about Jim. Maybe it was also a way of testing Jim's reaction as Freddie did seem to like a good row to get his creative juices flowing and maybe he was testing to see if Jim was after Freddie' the rock star' or Freddie 'the normal man'. I do praise Jim as no matter what could have happened I don't think he would ever have gone and sold a story to these nasty hacks.
Can of worms......I do feel that MA had something to do with Freddie's decision for wanting Jim to leave in 1990 (I believe). The things that happened after Freddie died back this theory up for me. As someone has said, Freddie was not going to tell Jim as for one he seemed to hate confrontation and this surely would have created some kind of confrontation.
Peter has said that there was always people around Freddie telling him things and causing issues, trying to get closer to him.
There is one story that does make me smile. Following a row, Jim had left to cool of his frustrations and Freddie headed into the garden and snipped off all the flowers from the tulips in anger. Peter said that Freddie regretted doing it almost immediately . I can just imagine Freddie's face once he realized what he had done. I bet he did a lot of crawling to Jim lol.
I feel the book written by David Evans/Davaid Minns is reliable as it is their memories of Freddie. It's a hard pill to swallow when you read how awful Freddie was to David back then. I feel it took Freddie a while to change and grow up.
Freddienotfreddy..I agree I have read both of the mentioned fan fiction books and he did help me understand how hard it must have been for freddie.
All in all Freddie was a very complex man and he appeared to have a lot of insecurities .
Thank you all as finally being able to talk about my feelings after reading Mercury & Me is fab
|"I feel the way the book is written in parts doesn't help. It annoying that JIm tells us an important part regarding Freddie's treatment of him and then doesn't explain it fully. To me it reads 'we had a row, we made up, and then the story changes direction. I would have liked him to explore his/ their feelings following the big row; why it happened and how Jim felt and if possible Freddie's explanation of why he did it.
When Freddie chucked him out because he didn't come home , well this was such double standards. Jim had from his POV seen another man leave Freddie's flat and yet this was totally disregarded following Freddie's decision to ask him to leave. Again I feel we needed more explanation of how this resolved this."
Well, the book was written by a man :) Even it was a gay man, I feel that men simply don't examine and analyse situations and feelings in that depth. That is what women do (of course there are exceptions, it's a big generalisation). And I think also the book didn't have this aspiration. It was a simple description of his life with Freddie, not an analysis of their love. And we definitely don't have enough information about their feelings.
I think (and again, this can be far from true, it's just my assumption), that Jim's character was an opposite to Freddie's which helped in lots of situations. Freddie was temperamental, Jim flegmatic (generalisation again!). So I can imagine in lots of situation when Freddie would be moody and nasty, he would say "ok, he has his moody time again, let's wait until it's over and don't take it to heart" - that't the thing David Minns wasn't capable of and a lot of his other lovers reacted exactly how Freddie wanted them to react and lead the row to the extreme and nasty incidents. You need a very strong personality NOT to react and say "ok, come later when you cool down I won't speak to you until then".
The second thing is Freddie rejected people so they couldn't reject him and pushed the situation to extreme to test their limits. I think Phoebe mentioned it, that he expected to be turned down /not sure if I use a good word for it/ by his lover and he was rather surprised when it didn't happen. He literally expected he will suffer at some point. It is quite sad but on the other hand, ce created a lot of situation by himself when things were nice for too long.
I whink that David Minns' and Jim Hutton's book together bring a good picture of Freddie's character in terms of love. On the other side, I'm sure, he was wonderful and very very easy to handle when he was in the right mood. A man of extremes. You need someone very special to stand this. Glad he found Jim at the end.
|I understand Jim. He wasn't with Freddie because of his fame, money or big house, he was with him because of love. That's why he always agreed to go when Freddie said that. Jim wasn't the person who would be begging Freddie to be with him. I think Freddie also understood that he must to change his habits if wanted to be with Jim. And obviously Freddie wanted to be with Jim.
About second evict I said already in Thor and Lee's thread I think Freddie tried to distance Jim from himself, tried to release him because he was aware that the disease progressed.
However, he later told Jim that he could continue to work in Garden Lodge. This is evidence that Freddie was thinking about him and his situation. Probably also is the proof of his love for Jim, when he considered about it, he realized that it would be very difficult for him to see Jim no longer everyday. But he couldn't see Jim only as a friend or worker, they could be only partners and lovers. As far as I realized, Jim didn't leave the house, Freddie stopped him when he learned Jim had found the flat.
Maybe I'm such a romantic but this is my view about it.
|From what other people have said about Jim, phlegmatic is how I would best describe him. He seemed to be down to earth, calm, quiet and not affected by Freddie's fame. I'm not sure if he fits into the socially awkward bracket, although I obviously didn't know him , I just think he was quiet and calm by nature. Everything I have found about him is always positive.
Thank you, you have explained it from a point of view that makes a lot sense.
I agree that David and Jim's books bring a good picture of Freddie in terms of love. He did describe himself as a man of extremes . If you listen to the 1987 David Wigg interview he talks about having to change for them . Maybe that is what made a difference to Freddie and Jim.
, I wanted a kind of genuine tranquil after the storm, and I think most of my, everybody expects me to have stormy relationships (David: yes) you know, and I was virtually, er, living my own media, as it were, where I actually thought, and in, in fact you get caught up in it, so I actually thought that was the way I should be, and so I was trying to force people to have a relationship with me in that way and I realise that it's so easy I thought I have to change for them, you know, it's quite easy, or, you can have a relationship without, without sort of harping on about every topic or whatever, it's quite easy. But finding that, that wonderful person is very hard
Gosh he is such an interesting man and so hard to work out at times. If there is an afterlife I would like to find him and have a good chat.
I am glad he found Jim at the end, maybe it was fate :)
|Invisible women I like your way of thinking.
I have seen many of your posts and I have seen how much you love Jim and Freddie's relationship. I am a romantic so I like to think they loved each other. We know Jim loved Freddie with all his heart.
I've never posted on this forum before but I use to read some threads that I find interesting from time to time. I found this thread and I usually never join in because I'm a bit shy and I don't think I have much to say. But I've seen you mentioning David Minns book so I thought I could give my opinion since I found it really interesting and seems like it offers a different perspective of Freddie that's rarely discussed . It's just my thoughts on the book if you're interested in reading it and for those who hadn't read it yet, there'll be spoilers, lol.
There are two different versions of this book. The second one is the one that includes a whole chapter writen by Minns about his relationship with Freddie. He tells how they met; how it started when Freddie was living with Mary some time around 1975 ; how he spent the nights with David at the flat David shared with David Evans; how they shared their own a flat later on, as he came out to Mary. He also tells (more extensively) about the wrong side of the relationship. How much they argued and fought, how he resented when Freddie brought Mary to places instead of him, he explains how Freddie's increasing fame affected them and how hurt he felt because Freddie, apparently, was messing around with him and had found Joe Fanelli when on tour for America.
He also describes a side of Freddie not so kind but rather cruel.
When I read the book I kept in mind that David is the author of that chapter, and that's important because he focuses on HIS OWN FEELINGS AND THOUGHTS about the things that happened and how it all affected him, so I wasn't alarmed to find out that he talks about himself too(wich he obviously do, all through the chapter. It's HIS story what he is telling, not just Freddie's )
I just want to make clear that I completely understand and feel for David and I don't judge him bad for writing those things (Why should I?) . I don't think he lied or wanted to "tarnish" Freddie's reputation like some people think.
BUT having said that, I didn't take all he said as a "Bible" of what is the absolute truth or the facts, because every person has a different view of the same story and what he tells is HIS side of it (a very valid side and surely honest with himself, but not the integral vision of the relationship, NOT THE ENTIRE PERSPECTIVE as he is no God and he can't read minds or be everywhere). He knew how HE felt himself and how he lived it, but sometimes, and maybe this is an unpopular opinion, he falters a little to recognise the fact that Freddie may had had suffered a great deal as well.
Freddie may had been a tease and may had liked to push David as to see what he could get from him or even to proof something to himself, but I'm sure he LOVED HIM and I don't think he ever wanted to hurt David on purpose or make him suffer.
I've learnt not to judge anybody by their actions before listening their story first, so I won't judge if what Freddie did was right or wrong. I have my thoughts on it, but I'd never judge him. I am in my last year of psychology (Psycology was not my first choice, I changed the subject when I understood I didn't want to become veterinarian. I find the education system forced us to make decisions too early) and partaking in group therapies you learn to listen without any judgement because everybody has a different background, everybody has experiences in life that make them act in some ways that maybe you would find weird or wrong.
Another thing I learnt, especially when it comes to relationship/conjugal problems, is that none of the parts involved would never tell the story of their relationship in an absolutely objective way. It could seem very obvious, but many times that's not because they are lying, but because there are too many feelings involved and their side of the story will tend to be filtered by all the emotions they felt towards the partner or the thoughts they had when some events during the relationship happened. And the bad stays with you longer (if not forever) than the good. And if the story ended badly, the bad tends to overshadow the rest.
That's why, when David and Freddie split up, David said he didn't even want to listen to Queen music or hear anything about Freddie, he was bitter, and probably Freddie was bitter too, and however much they reunited again, that sense of bitterness never leaves.
The best way to understand a little bit better what happened is through a third person. Someone who was close enough to them, who was there with them and knew them well. I think it's impossible to find somebody who was there ALL THE TIME and in every fight, but the most close I'd say it would be David Evans, who lived with them and knew them both (maybe was more close to Minns, but loved them both I guess).
And from what he says at the very begining of the chapter, he doesn't take part for one or the other. He kind of understands both of them and asks the reader not to judge any of them.
Thinking of it... If Freddie had been that cruel and careless to David, Was his best friend Evans going to publish a book (the first version) that it's just a compilation of stories about people telling all good things about Freddie? Would he himself describe Freddie as a kind, generous and thoughtful person? Of course Evans also admits Freddie's complicated nature and that he loved having him as a friend but would never had wanted Freddie as a boyfriend. Well, who could blame him? Freddie was not an easy person. Freddie himself admited that on more than one occasion. He always said he wasn't a good partner for anybody and that he seemed to drain or destroy people and push them away somehow.
I think he felt he sent away the good people from him and seemed to attract the bad. I think that's also partly because he was a drama seeker.
But Evans says he was 99% of the time funny and kind except when he had a sudden depressive mood or a tantrum. And also that Freddie remembered past incidents he thought had been forgoten, so I don't think he was careless, maybe just immature at one point.
I found that David Minns assumed so much regarding what Freddie did or felt. Things that David might not exactly know but were just what he felt or figured at that time and he wrote them as almost facts. For exemple:
He reckoned in the book a very difficult time when he took an overdose. It was apparently caused because he felt deeply hurt when Freddie brought Joe to their lives (And, I guess, some other things as well. They were really struggling in their relationship and their life was a frantic chaos at that time).
Well, he tells that he was hospitalized and that Freddie was fixing his hair while that was happening, as to say that Freddie didn't give a shit. BUT at that time without mobile phones or anything, how could he know what was Freddie doing or if he already knew what had happened? And if David knew it for sure, he doesn't explain it.
The fact that he expressed it like that made him appear bitter and deeply hurt.Of course, I empatishe with him, but I can't help but ask to myself what Freddie felt.
Their relationship was almost wrecked, their arguments were awful and he already knew Joe was in the middle of it (for some odd reasons they had hang out together sometimes. And I don't buy it was just Freddie's fault and thoughtlessness if both, David and Joe, consented it. They were adults and not stupid). David didn't know what coud be the reasons for Freddie taking distance on that incident or what he felt, he just assumed he didn't care about him. Which is really unlike Freddie, based on how supposedly he loved David and what all his friends say about him.
One can be a completely shit sometimes but you don't turn into a cruel careless bitch for no reason from one day to the other. He could have been feeling many things:
1.Fear, he could fear that David didn't want to see him. They had had a very nasty fight and it
|My message got cut out... I think it was too long. I'll try to post the part that's missing...
1.Fear, he could fear that David didn't want to see him. They had had a very nasty fight and it maybe made Freddie feel guilty and unsure of what David's reaction could be.
David tended to run away when they fought so maybe Freddie understood he'd want to be left alone or even didn't want to see him anymore. Maybe he was scared and reacted just running away from the problems because he hated the confrontation.
He probably hoped time would heal the wounds (which may be a coward way out, but not everybody face the problems in the same way. Some people just want to forget about bad things as a self-defence mechanism).
He could also fear David had done that as a way of blakmail or something to call his attention because their relationship was crumbling. WE REALLY DON'T KNOW what he thought or what happened entirely.
2. Confusion. Taking an overdose is such a drastic thing to do and very serious. Many people close to David could have felt disoriented or taken aback, not knowing how to procede or not understanding the reason for him to do such heavy thing (And it was the 70s, depression was not that deep in public consciousness as a really serious illness, and for some groups of society, a suicide attempt was something to be frowned upon. We can't look at it through the same optic we see it today).
And if you take into account the reasons why David did it. How could one feel if a boyfriend you're almost in the verge of breaking with did something like that? It could be quite overwhelming.
It would have been very different if their relationship was healthy and the reasons for taking the overdose were alien to the couple interaction, or if his partner had been able to help him or comfort him in some way. But in this case, Freddie probably felt helpless, in a very strage position or even maybe upset about what David had done.
Maybe Freddie didn't understand why or how could David had done something like that. Probably it all came as a shock to him and felt confronted about the situation.
A suicidal attempt its not usually a sudden thing, it comes from repeated suicidal thoughts, something that rolls in your mind for quite a bit and it manifests in your mood and your behaviour. You expect some symptoms, maybe David wasn't expressing his feelings or Freddie didn't get the clues. Maybe it was just a call for attention, which sadly happens many times.
It wasn't only Freddie who needed attention. David probably felt more and more detached from him as Freddie's success was blossoming. At the begining of the relationship, it was Freddie who fought to get David to fall in love with him. It was Freddie who was head over heels for David, so he must have felt at least flattered and wanted. And also must've felt needed, because Freddie was still struggling to find his place both areas, within Queen (as a frontman and taking part in the bussiness side) and personally (with his sexuallity and his shyness out of the stage).
David said how he was a kind of lead figure for Freddie in social meetings and parties while Freddie comes across as insecure and seemed to be very dependent not only on him, but many people throughout his life. So it's for sure David felt important in Freddie's life, but, as Freddie was winning confidence in all those areas, David felt more and more left out.
From one side, Freddie's desire to make his family proud and his Queen interests where pushing him to surrender towards a workaholic heterosexual life that could fullfil his ambitions and desire to succeed. He felt obligued to put on a mask that was drowning him under too much stress, worries and anxieties and certainly made him feel moody and drepressed .
And then, from the other side,new people was coming, and offering (not forcing) Freddie the very opposite side, the funny crazy world (alcohol and drugs give people a sense of confidence and carelessness that's not real) that he took with gratitude and self indulgence .
So David probably was in the middle of it and felt disregarded and hurt because he thought he had sacrificed many things for Freddie and now was unsure of what place he had in his life. (David said he had committed to their relationship for Freddie because he didn't want it in first place, he also said he had compromised his work to be by Freddie's side during tours and that he had done so much for Freddie and the whole band and that they had been ungrateful)
And, no doubt, Freddie must have felt hurt too because of David being resentful. He may have thought David was being sulky and demanding and reproaching him things all the time when he was trying to handle his life the way he could or knew, even if it was compartimentalizing it or hiding things from people around him (which is very exhausting).
Maybe it was all too much for him and David was starting to represent another burden which aumented the already intense pressure that was pushing from all flanks.
He seemed to have some kind of emotional deficiencies (like separation anxiety or abandonment issues).
Some people sent away from his family at a very young age for so long can suffer from affective dissorders. And in Freddie's case he could have felt also lack of support and lack of understanding because of his parents not accepting him being gay.
People with lack of affection can be very sceptical and find it hard to trust in people. It could cause them to think love is utopian and become resigned or misunderstand love and have false expectations. Many people with this kind of issues build relationships (love realationships or frinedships) and try to draw attention towards themselves (as being the receiver of everybody's care) to fill the void and can be sometimes selfish, dependent, needy of affection and afraid of being lonely.
Regardless of his parents loving him, that i'm sure they did,it is more about what he could feel because :
_Maybe they weren't very demonstrative
_They were far away from him and not able to show him all his affection
_He felt he had let them down in some ways (for being gay?, choosing arts as a career? , throwing away or give up his studies to beacome a musician?, not marrying a girl and not being able to build a family with children etc... ?) and therefore, fear they didn't love him anymore.
_He felt they devoted his attention more towards his sister and loved her more. (She wasn't as rebellious? , she happily married a man being much younger than him when he was just messing around and trying to make it work with his band...?)
These are just thoughts he could had had as a young boy.
All this issues could cause him the need to control everything and make it absolutely imprescindible for him to trust everyone around him before opening up.
If he found he couldn't trust anybody it would be very dificult for him to feel completely comfortable around them.
So for somebody who needs so much security and finds it hard to find people with whom he could feel at ease it's just obvious that he would cling to them for dear life. And because of that, betray can be very hurtful.
He tended to develope strong emotional attachment with people he thought were genuine or truly loved him, that's why he always cared for his friends and tried to keep in contact some way even if years have passed and mend mistakes of the past.
3. (LoL, point two was way too long) Needing good advice or good help to solve (or skip, as some would say) the difficult situation.
Think about his context, Freddie was a public figure; he hadn't come out publicy; he had parents who didn't accept his homosexuality and he would have seen it as a big catastrophe if they were to discover he had been lying about Mary and had been sleeping with a man; his increasing fame was making a dent and he was starting to taste the hard side of it; the amount of work, the level of success
|Ok, still too long... SORRY. Be patient with me. I've been quiet too long ....
3. (LoL, point two was way too long) Needing good advice or good help to solve (or skip, as some would say) the difficult situation.
Think about his context, Freddie was a public figure; he hadn't come out publicy; he had parents who didn't accept his homosexuality and he would have seen it as a big catastrophe if they were to discover he had been lying about Mary and had been sleeping with a man; his increasing fame was making a dent and he was starting to taste the hard side of it; the amount of work, the level of success and the pressure to keep it high level; the press being not very kind with him; the punk scene was arising and threatening to destroy all he had worked so hard to get; Queen's management was going through a changing process to reach their indepency that took a great deal of money and hard work; he was surrounded by people who wanted a piece of the cake; and apparently his boyfriend (or almost exboyfriend, they had many ups and downs) might had gone nuts and had done something stupid.
He didn't know what could happen next, so Freddie probably went to his lawyer and confident (Jim Beach) for advice.
It's a childish thing to do, like going to your older brother when you break something expensive and you need someone to fix it because you are just scared someone can find out or your can parents scold you. But, like I said I think he was just insecure and hated to be in a vulnerable position.
Jim Beach being the bussinessman he is, surely wanted to make short work and cut it for the sake of the group image (we all know he didn't quite understand Freddie's relationship with men, remember it was the 70s, so he probably didn't adress the issue in the most sensitive way he would have done if the problem had been with Mary, for example) .
So he probably told Freddie it was better to "break the bonds" and sent a contract for David to sign in which he was comitted to remain quiet about their relationship in order to protect Freddie.
Even if maybe it wasn't completely what Freddie would have wanted. He was, then again, hiding under the band's interests and his own interests because he just couldn't carry that weight (the weight of being the cause of David's ills)under his shoulders as well. But in the world of the music bussiness you have to do some sacrifices I guess.
David said it was Freddie tasking somebody else to do the dirty work. Maybe it was skipping the situation but, the story has more than one angle, and David couldn't expect for Freddie to take the blame and carry with the guilt of such thing.
He sure felt bad of certain things he did, but they were both adults and it wouldn't have been fair on Freddie if he had felt guilty about something like what David did. That was beyond what Freddie could have done, it was about David's health and he should have asked for help.
Anyway, in the end, such contract never was signed as David also said.
Probably Freddie was too clingy or needy for affection, maybe he missed David and couldn't stay away (maybe it was David too who missed Freddie, it isn't very clear in the book. David just says they saw each other again), and neither him or David saw a need for him to sign such thing.
Freddie (as always) still insisted in keeping David close (which, for so many peole around meant "problems". JOE had already moved to Freddie's flat from America and I don't think he really appreciated having Freddie's ex or whatever he was around, MARY wanted Freddie to make up his mind and settle down with her, the NEW PEOPLE AROUND Freddie wanted him to be free and enjoy the life fame and fortune offered so they could take advantage of it as well and THE BAND didn't see with good eyes his preferences so I guess they just turned the blind eye.)
So, apparently Freddie offered to buy an apartment for David and then it was David who decided to definetly part ways and forget Freddie for the sake of his mental health I suppose.
Not everybody is willing to be like Mary and carry on with such a messy life.
I think David was very independent after all, so he just couldn't keep up with all that madness.
The same happened with Joe, I guess, but he came back to Freddie later in life and remained with him until the end. Maybe Joe understood Freddie better, I have a feeling that Joe felt very protective of Freddie and learnt to deal with his moods through his dramas and crisis.
I love how he would search for two cats to liven up the house and make Freddie happy and how he would always know what Freddie needed and cared for him through his illness.
Many people complains about why Freddie left the same amount of money to his boyfriend Jim, Joe and Phoebe. I think it would have been unfair otherwise, because those two people (Joe and Phoebe) went through hell and high water to make Freddie feel happy and cared for.
There's some other episodes that make David appear as quite bitter at times too, because of the way things are explained, and it's just normal, and surely unintencioned. He seems to make an effort to write the story unbiased so he admits some mistakes on his own as well (although, let's be honest, very timidly. But I understand he was hurt. And even though I don't like to speak of victims and guilties, David probably felt he was the victim in this, and that's fine. Freddie was the one who teased and cheated on David after all. And not everybody has the gut or the need to keep up with Freddie's tricky ways to feel wanted and his moods).
I don't understand people who say David is a liar, people sometimes just can't recognize Freddie did some things wrong.
I DO think Freddie was kind, sweet, generous and a very good man; but even the best people make mistakes and do bad things sometimes.
Freddie was a human being, the only thing that's different between him and the rest of us (apart from his impressive talent) is that his life has been examined, scrutined, commented, analyzed, overanalysed, told and retold to the minimum detail, so it's just evident that there is judgement on things that, if made by us, would be insignificant or just forgotten and never commented...
I emphatize with David and how he tells his experiences. But I can't help but emphatize with Freddie as well, knowing all he was through at that time and maybe during his upbringing. I just think there was lack of empathy on both parts, they struggled to recognize each other needs and probably, they were selfish (and a bit egotistical) and didn't consider enough each others fears and feelings.
As I said before It is David's chapter so he writes his thoughts and reflexions. Some of them, I have to say, are essays about some things that are really, just that, his thoughts. I mean, he rants way too much about so many different things like some kind of moralist... That trait I didn't appreaciate too much about him as I don't understand why he had to be so judgemental and critic.
He rants in a moment about the youth in the late 70s, in the punk era and how disrespectful they were, so unlike them,because they had values and respect for the public acts and older people or something like that. He says also something about drugs, like they were moderate and some younger people weren't (I don't remember exactly how it was writen). But he's like a grumpy granny really.
He rants about an author of a book that apparently wrote some things wrong about his and Freddie's relationship. He says he was not there and therefore he couln't talk about it.
I mean, I totally agree with that, but the thing is that David himself talks so much about Freddie's behaviour from 1979 to 1986 when David wasn't there.
He complains about someone who writes about something he didn't witnessed, he insists he had to know things first hand not just hear it from someone, and then David just keeps talking about how reckless, careless, exc
|I hope this is the las part...
He complains about someone who talks about something he didn't witnessed, he insists he had to know things first hand not just hear it from someone, and then David just keeps talking about how reckless, careless, excesive... just how wrong Freddie was, how bad he behaved during that time he wasn't with him.
He says how alone he must have felt and how mistaken he was and it all told from a perspective that feels like some kind of moral of a fable, like saying: It's a shame but... that's what he got from all that (his illness), I (David) got away from that. For me that's the worst part of the book and I despised it as a very little compasive opinion.
He rants about Freddie's behaviour and personality way too much.
I'm perfectly okay with him telling what happened, what kind of arguments they had, how Freddie was with him, how he felt and what he thought about it at the time, BUT he literally spends whole paragraphs just kind of "reviewing" Freddie's personality with an air of self-complacency when he wasn't exactly what we would say exemplar.
He complains about Freddie becoming violent in the arguments every time he wasn't able to make his point come across or when he was confronted with some problematic topics for him like his sexuality, Mary or his parents.
He also says he could be unpleasant and rude with anybody around him on occasion and shout even at Mary.
Well, it is not that rare. It is very common to snap at the ones closest to you when you're stressed or something's going on in your life.
Everybody tends to take things out on people who they love and trust because they think family/friends/lover, whoever you are closest with, will understand or they won't hold a grudge.
And if you are already insecure or selfconscious about some aspects of your life, it causes a state of anxiety during confrontations and situations that are beyond your control.
Your insecurities can make you act very defensive or even overeact and get angy because there's that scaring feeling of being exposed or being ridicule and you fear people would see your vulnerabilities.That makes you want to hide it and keep a "strong" façade.
I think most of this may have something to do with Freddie's childhood. People grown in hostile enviroments or subjected to a strict discipline and that have suffered some kind of bullying or harassing tend to feel endangered by strangers or situations that are beyond their control.
When kid you're afraid of rejection so you always try to hide your vulnerabilities.
Growing up in a boarding school Freddie had to learn to fend for himself and with a distinctive physicality (like his teeth) or different personality (like his campness) it should not have been easy. He must've felt threatened and tried to develope a strong character and personality.
This early stage of developement affects greatly as an adult, so whenever he felt threatened he would respond the way he did back then so nobody would see his flaws and vulnerabilities, that is: shouting louder, like children do; trying to be more hurtful with his words than the other or lashing out when he runs out of arguments to defend his point.
Freddie could be like a spoiled child, impulsive, moody, petulant and sometimes for him it was more a matter of who won the fight than what it was for.
Yes, probably all true. But, was he really that vile to David? Did he really want to punish David, as he says, for not getting away with his wishes? Was he really that insidious? Didn't he care for David at all? Freddie could have been angry with him or take some stupid childish revenge some time, but Freddie was very aware of the fact that he could be very impulsive and that he made mistakes.
He knew he could snap quickly and was very aware of how he affected other people's lifes (he talked about it in the 1985 interview with David Wigg). He maybe wasn't too keen to say sorry (or the pride didn't let him) but he would see what he had made wrong and would try to fix it some way afterwards.
David himself said how Freddie would make a fuss apologizing, giving him presents and sending him flowers and cute postcards when they had had a fight or Freddie knew he had done something wrong or inappropriate.
People with that kind of nervous energy can be excitable and certain things he could do out of his impulsive nature or in a moment of anxiety or rage should made him feel regretful which causes guilt and emotional fatigue as well.
BUT let's not obviate that David was not less inclined towards fury, he complains Freddie seemed unable to talk the problems through but he flied off the handle as well (throwing things or getting physical), and both of them came to blows easily as it seems...
I mean, they were childish enough to play a game of who can make each other more jealous and see how far they could go. Freddie kind of lost that game because David played along and just ignored him and went to find his own enjoyment.
So Freddie reproached that to David and somehow David ended up grabbing a wooden clog and hitting Freddie on the head with it. What? I don't think it's the most mature or reasonable thing to do, and then, Did he expect Freddie to be just fine with that? Obviously he lashed out and hit David on the jaw as well because it seems that talking things through was not their way, the pride comes first. And, of course, It ended badly because the slap hit him some place David started to bleed and they both realised they had gone too far (and had been a pair of arseholes).
And then their worst fight, with the glass candlestick incident, loses its impact when just two pages before, David had written about another argument in which he had grabbed an asthray and hurled it at Freddie. He litteraly said that Freddie just missed it. So I don't think it's fair to say Freddie was just acting like that because he was violent or abusive or wathever, but because it kind of was the procedure in their relationship.
They were as bad for each other, the only thing is that Freddie seemed to be maybe more stressed and edgy or comes across as more aggressive, wich I think not only has to do with the fact that it's David who's telling the story but also with Freddie's state of mind at that time and maybe past experiences.
It was the 70s, there wasn't the same conciousness about domestic violence, or violence in general, that there is today. It wasn't much of a deal if two men fought so they just argued and fought like they were in a school playground. And in this case, I don't think it was a thing of power over one another or Freddie wanting David to submit, it was a thing of tension, being under too much pressure, arguments escalating, stubborness and pride. And maybe even lack of understanding on both parts as well.
And I have to say the candlestick incident lacks of explanation. I mean, David just says that he threw Freddie's catalogue to the ground and kind of ruined it, and Freddie complained about it and just snaped, which is unlikely. Probably they had been fighting over something that caused David throwing the catalogue in rage, and it escalated until Freddie went mad and responded in that violent way. Which has no defence, of course.
David rants about Freddie's behaviour yet again, but this time about the time after their relationship. He censures Freddie's behaviour saying how regrettable it is to have sex senseless and without love... But It was David who didn't want anything serious with Freddie in first place. It was David who said he brought night stands to his and David Evans flat that were never to stay. He also is the one to put Freddie's first wild birthday party together. He is the one who says he went to gay clubs and was far more experienced socializing than Freddie was (Despite Freddie having had his little trips to gay bars).
I mean I don't think he was the virgin Mary to say those things about Fr
|Nope... this is.
I mean I don't think he was the virgin Mary to say those things about Freddie's sexual life.
But I guess it was until people like Paul Prenter (the villain) entered the scene and then David was just escandalised because he was so refined...haha.
I mean, I don't think he had any right to judge what Freddie did or didn't do with his body. That cruel illnes was just that, an illnes nobody thougth will reach them at that time.
David seemed to me a little snobbish sometimes. And Freddie at some extent in the begining as well. Like they thought of themselves as more classy or "more fabulous gays" than other they maybe found more rude or sort of super manly with all the macho look, they perhaps found it too debauched or tacky (I don't even know). I mean just the way they (Evans and Minns) described the people whom they socialized and worked with and the first impression they had on Freddie it's enough to see they were a little "exquisite".
I think their common friends or the people Freddie met through David were a little like that as well, Peter Straker for example,they were like more snobbish or sophisticated if you like, and more camp. But it's not like they were nuns nor little angels, I think it was more a matter of style.
And then, around 1979, Freddie started to open his barriers and discover new places, maybe he found boys more his taste (more butch?) he found new companies and indulged himself to explore some amusing more sleazy clubs and the leather look.
I think that's what David felt, like he had gone to the "dark side".
But I feel Freddie, he had been repressed for so long, almost until his 30s, he was just burnsting to explore his sexuality and his true self. I think he saw an open world when he travelled to America an discovered the gay scene there. It must have been like there were no limits.
David appears a bit narcisistic too (or "genius", I think he refers to it in the book with this word in yet another rant about Freddie's suposedly wrong demeanor) and he is honest enough as to admite that he is (and some other things, I don't think he wants to play the innocent), but, of course, he puts Freddie in the same bag. And sometimes I kind of miss one of those rants being a true autocritique.
Self deprecating or need to apologie seems to be a thing that only applies to Freddie, because he is the bad guy. David is the one affected the most in that relationship because of Freddie's unability to handle his problems, and apparently, his flirtatious attitude and jealousy.
Even though the last were traits they had in common, David recalls the possessivity for one another but also their cheeckiness and playfulness (the "gaiety" of it all, as David would call it) and that could be an explosive mix.
My analysis is much longer than that but I think I get too carried away already and nobody's gonna read all that so I'm gonna leave it there.
:) wow :) and I felt guilty my posts are too long :)
I think there is nothing else to say. I have to read your posts once more but I think I just agree with you. You choose your future profession well.
|wow that was long and I couldn 't take it all in .
It's clear you and I are different; I just took the book for what it is, David and David's POV. We don't have Freddie's so we can't comment on that.
I did and still do feel for David as the relationship was clearly tough on him and on Freddie .
Noone is perfect and I appreciate it isn't all Freddie's fault however, Freddie is known to be a very complex and possessive person (his words ) and he brought David into his life and started a relationship with him under false pretences. He did not tell him he was still in a relationship with Mary.
I don't think for one moment it was all bad but they had there moments and fights which got out of hand. David did hit Freddie first so I did find that a little off.
Imagine a relationship with Freddie knowing how complex he is, not for me.
I do still believe Freddie left David heartbroken and I firmly believe that sometimes a person can make a spur of the moment decision in a moment of madness...I'm referring to suicide. Freddie wrote a song about suicide afterwards. , that wouldn't thrill me TBH
I have been in that dark place and it isn't nice. .
Remember freddie was known for his temper as well as all of his lovely qualities. He smashed a mirror over his manager's head and then got him to clean it up. David Wigg saw Freddie loosing it in his dressing room the first time he interviewed him. In his younger days I'd say freddie had a lot to learn but I imagine he was struggling with other areas of his life.
I don't blame David for having to get away, that is what I would have to do. To stay around someone who broke you heart would be very difficult for me.
I am glad they became friends again in later life when Freddie had clearly matured .
I do also believe Freddie's time for 1979 to 1985 was crazy and some of the things he got up to don't bear thinking about. However, his journey into homosexuilty started quite late in life so who can blame him for sleeping with one man after the other. It must have left him feeling quite empty after a while.
|eck....Freddie Mercury The Great Pretender book arrived today.
I love it and it's def one you need in print, it has lovely photos.
It's made me a little emotional . I'll give you a peak at some of the introduction.
It's 8 pm and I'm sitting watching the uncut rushes of Freddie's infamous birthday party in munich, 1985.
It is hard to tell if Freddie is enjoying himself or not . A three-tiered cake is carried across the dance floor as the birthday boy is ushered over to blow out the candles. Slightly embarrassed, he blows out a few and retreats into a corner of the the room away from everyone, where he spends most of the night. Being the centre of attention at his own party appears to make him squirm.
The party footage in the past has been often used to depict his outrageous personal life. However, this wasn't really Freddie;s personal life. It's what he wanted us to believe was his personal life , to embellish the image and persona he had created.
This is what made me sad
Life couldn't be better, he was invited to Barcelona to meet Montserrat his idol, he was in his element. On an emotional level he had finally found happiness with long-term boyfriend, Jim Hutton. Life couldn't have been better, except he knew he was HIV Positive, he had aids.
Its so sad that his life was going so well and bloody AIDS had to spoilt it :(
|doughnut, if we can't comment on Freddie's perspective, what is all this opinion forum for? It's obviously David POV, and that's why I said what I said. That's the very reason to question how objective that can be keeping in mind all that happened between them.
I didn't deny any of the things you're saying. I said Freddie was possessive and had temper and that their relationship was tough.
I was just saying that sometimes things have to be put on perspective.
You say he started a relationship with David under false pretences... well that's your way to put it. I just feel you really have to think in his situation, because we're already seeing it from David's perspective.
He surely had the need to hide his relationship with Mary from
David because he feared David would end up the relationship, and Freddie apparently was unable to break the relationship with Mary. He had a strong bond with her
and needed her to keep aparences as well. It's survival instict (He surely felt guilty about that situation. He felt also bad for Mary and Mary recalls how he seemed uneasy at that time)
He brought David to his flat with Mary. You will say that was cruel and Freddie was playing with his feelings.
I would say he just knew David would have to know soon or later and didn't have the gut to tell him directly, so he kind of showed him.
It's a bad thing or a coward thing, yes. But not a reason to say Freddie wanted to hassle David for the shake of it or .
I also said I feel for David and empathise with him, but also with Freddie.
"Freddie is known for being a complex and possessive person" I covered all that as well and I explained the reasond why I thought he was that way.
And referring to the song about suicide. It's "Don't try suicide" that song is from the album "The Games" which was recorded a good two years before they broke up. Brian May also
refered to it in an interview saying that song was recorded when they started recording in Musicland Studios in Munich. That studio was in the basement of the Arabella building which was (in)famous
because people would climb up to the roof and attempt suicide.
David said he thought that song was for him but there's no proof of that.
Even if the song ws about him, why would Freddie write about it two years before? If he didn't care... as the song says "nobody cares".
The song also says "don't do it" in repeat and "nobody's worth it". The song it's far from sensitive on that matter, but things were diferent at that time.
I've been in that dark place too, that's why I decided to study psychology.
|I'm sorry if you misunderstood my opinions as an attack towards David. It's far from it. I just needed to say that I wouldn't judge Freddie that fast
and asume all what David said were inamovible facts.
I know he was moody and temperamental when he was younger. He himself said that in the interview with David Clark ( "In those days I was young and threw tantrums")
The anecdotes you say are told in different versions throughout the years and recalled in books and articles and I don't really know what is the real truth.
I seem to recall that manager was Pete Brown, and he's mentioned talking about the incident in a book. I don't know at what extent were his own words or not,
but he just said that Freddie got mad because they were trying to access to the venue they were going to play in Australia. Aparently people got angry because they were waiting outside or something and
Freddie had insisted in accessing with the car, so the people harassed them from outside the car, called them names (c*nts or queers I don't remember) and made gestures with their hands.
Then Freddie took out the anger on Pete. Whether he really smashed the mirror against his head or just threw it above his head, or if the mirror was big or small. There are different versions.
But if you had been hit directly on the head with a heavy mirror I don't think you'll be able to clean it afterwards. And poor Pete said he understood Freddie was embarrassed about the incident with the people.
And as for David Wigg, he is a master of exaggerating and dramatizing. And the four in the band crashed things backstage out of frustation... It's a way to blow off the steam after all the tension and stamina piled up during the show. It happens to many people in the showbiz world.
I agree with you that It was the best thing to do for David to get away. I didn't blame him for that nor criticized him for it.
The difference is that somebody else breaking anybody's heart would never be discussed and expossed in a way Freddie's mistakes in life are. For all to opine and judge.
If I broke my partner's heart it wouldn't go much far than my neighbour two blocks away.
I think David needed maduration too... but it's my opinion.
Freddie's behaviour from 1979 to 1985, sleeping with one man after the other, being a man whore or whatever people want to call was his bussiness.
David judged way too much his actions and he didn't even was affected by it because they weren't together anymore. I don't think it's fair just because what happened to Freddie.
And I don't want to enter in a territory that leads to the criminalization of AIDS victims.
i actually don't believe Freddie didn't enjoy parties he organized. Even his clovest friends confirmed he liked to have a good time and nobody forced him to go out every evening. I think it was part of his personality, same as his stage persona and shyness. There were at least 3 Freddies inside of him. Regarding his 39th birthday party, I think that there is a rumour that Freddie was blinded for a moment when the cake was brouth? Someone put something into his drink? But I cannot confirm it.
And you are right, that the timing was really unfair to him. But on the other side - we can't say he didn't live to the full. There are plenty of people who died in 80 and hadn't lived at all.
Ok, I put great Prenetender on my list.
|I didn't say the AIDS think because of you doughnut. I just know there's always people willing to put shit on Freddie about it.
|Sorry. It may be difficult to read because it's too long and english is not my first language.
|Mika, the author was watching the unedited rushes from the party and it is his observations. I imagine he enjoyed it very much but I can also see him retreating to the corner just with his close friends.
At his Ibiza party he retreated to his room midway through with his close friends so he could relax and stop being the party entertainer.
Oh yes he lived life to the full
|oh i didn't know, I thought that was your observation.
Yes I agree he didn't need 200 people around, just couple of good friends.
|What do you mean about the aids thing and Me ?
I honestly don't think David was judgemental, i felt it was sorrow he was conveying at the life Freddie !lived for a period . Freddie himself said he was very promiscuous which was ultimately his downfall :(
Nobody here is putting shit on Freddie, he was not perfect :)
|words...I'm sure you already know this but David Evans added content concerning David Minns when the book was put onto Kindle. He found that David had been writing his memoirs so he included the part about him and Freddie . By this point David Minns had sadly passed away so he had no part in it being added.
I feel that you are protective of Freddie which I totally understand but everything about him is more or less out there now and it can't hurt him.
|Mika, have you seen the Great Pretender documentary as it's the producer of this that has written the book. He watched the unedited rushes as part of making the documentary.
|Sorry, I didn't explain myself well. I wasn't referring to any of you discussing here. I just wanted to say that I didn't want to start a discussion about Freddie's sexual behaviour
because everybody has his own opinions and sometimes it causes people to enter the thread just to criminalize the illnes. I was refering to people who doesn't accept Freddie's sexuality
or lifestyle. I guess it just happens on social media, but just wanted to be cautious. I don't know if I explained myself well... I hope you get what I mean and that it wasn't in any case against you.
Yes, I see sorrow in David too, not just in the book but when I've seen him on a couple of documentaries. I think that he had a soft spot for Freddie after all.
But I found that part of the book too hard. Maybe not judgemental in a way of bitterly criticizing, but in a way that he makes Freddie appear guilty about his choices in life during that period.
I think Freddie was the master of his actions, but not guilty. It could have happened to anybody and those were crazy times. He was a Rock 'n' roll afetr all.
I know it can't hurt him. But many people will read the book and it could came as a shock to them, because almost everybody else who knew him speak so well about him.
I don't think I put it in a way where Freddie is the victim or Freddie is perfect. And I hope It didn't come across as an attack to David, because it wasn't.
I also didn't blame David for writing those words or said it was wrong for him if he wanted to publish it ( I know he wasn't who published it, yes)
I shared my thought on what how I understood the book and that I don't truely believe Freddie was as cruel as the chapter depicted. All is relative, people most of the times is victim of the circumstances.
And It doesn't mean that I want to deny Freddie had flaws.
I didn't say I didn't believe what David. I didn't say David was a bad guy. Literally the only thing I said I didn't like about him was that thing about him giving moral lessons sometimes. That's it.
Then I just limited to say what I thought about how he presented his story.
I didn't pretend to justify the bad things Freddie did. I just wanted to put them in context and try to understand him as well as everybody understands David after reading the book.
|Sorry it was:
" I shared my *thoughts on how* I understood the book..."
and "I didn't say I don't believe what David *said*"
|I understand you .. hope it's ok to call you that as your name is long lol
So far we haven't encountered any attacks on Freddie's sexuality . let's hope it stays that way. :)
|"I didn't pretend to justify the bad things Freddie did. I just wanted to put them in context and try to understand him as well as EVERYBODY understands David after reading the book."
Everybody included me! haha
|Thank you, doughnut ;)
Yes, I hope too.
|I hope *that* too... OMG I hate that I can't edit the comments after I click the button...
Sorry, I missed your comment for some reason.
Thanks for your words regarding my career choice.
I hope you're right because I invested the last 5 years of my life in it. *sigh*
it is hard to react on everything you wrote but...
Don't try suicide was on The Game album - released in 1980. David and Freddie weren't together anymore during that period. So he could write this song 2 years before they split up. Or am I missing something?
|Sorry, I just realized I said "Dont try suicide" was written two year *before* the end of Freddie's relationship with David.
I just confused the words I meant *after*.
David and Freddie's relationship ended in 1978 and the song was recorded in 1980.
And tyed the album "The Game" as **the games**
Also I read David's book a long time ago so I didn't remember every detail exactly.
When I said Jim Beach sent a contract for David to sign I mistaked it. It was a letter he asked David to write, sorry.
I will shut up now. I just needed to correct the mistakes.
|Yes, yes It's totally possible. I just said it was unlikely and that there were no evidences. But yes, It's possible.
|I'll correct that comment:
And referring to the song about suicide. It's "Don't try suicide" that song is from the album "The GAME" which was recorded a good two years AFTER they broke up. Brian May also
refered to it in an interview saying that song was recorded when they started recording in Musicland Studios in Munich. That studio was in the basement of the Arabella building which was (in)famous
because people would climb up to the roof and attempt suicide.
David said he thought that song was for him but there's no proof of that.
Even if the song was about him, why would Freddie write about it two years AFTER? If he didn't care... as the song says "nobody cares".
The song also says "don't do it" on repeat and "nobody's worth it". The song it's far from sensitive on that matter, but things were diferent at that time.
That's what I wanted to say. It makes sense now. Sorry.
Also I found what exactly was that Brian May said:
Brian May said that the eerie mood and sense of isolation meant he used to hate the place. "People used to commit suicide by jumping off the top of that building quite frequently,"
We can't really say if the song was about David or not for sure.
|Hi. Good to see you all here and thanks for starting this “book club”. I won’t post until I’ve caught up with everyone’s posts and I really look forward to the book discussions.
|Joining this thread a little late in the game but here's the list of books I've read:
1. Both of Phoebe's books
2. Jim Hutton's book (Favorite!!)
3. Ratty's book
4. The Virtuoso in The Closet 1&2
6. Queen in Cornwall (currently reading)
7. This Was The Real Life by David Evans and David Minns
8. Peter Freestone's Blog - Ask Phoebe*
9. Rosemary's book
I'm going to go back and catch up on what's been posted so far. Looking forward to joining the discussion!!
|Welcome Annie65 and GwenMezroe!
I have been thinking about something really strange for a couple of days. But, sometimes I have a feeling that Freddie kind of knew,, he won't live as long as people usually live.
Phoebe mentioned it he never expected to make old bones. Even in some interviews before he was diagnosed he made some hints.
And I mean, his whole attitude to life was quite impressive- live to the full, enjoy life, take risks, never regret anything and do your best because you can be dead tomorrow. I don't know many people who live like this and most of them have been already faced by death in some way (serious illness in most cases). So it makes me wonder, I know if is really silly but, what if there was something which made him know about his fate?
I think it was David Minn's book where one of Freddie's friends from childhood spoke about their conversation when Freddie stated he will die in 45? I know it can be completely fabulated but... Who knows?
Oh my God I can't believe I'm going to post this. My apologies to anyone who feels offended :-)
|Hi everyone - just found out about this thread while playing catch up on the Thor&Lee thread. For those trying to find "Queen - As it Began" at a reasonable price, you might want to check in now and then with this site:
A couple of months ago it popped up on Google when I was searching for it and at the time they had about 7 copies - I ordered it (paperback), and for the book plus s/h, I paid a grand total of just under $7.50 - my copy is in good condition. They are out of stock for now, but state they get about 5 paperback copies every 6 mo's (vs. 1 hard cover every 6 mo's). Hope this helps!
|"I know it can be completely fabulated but... Who knows? "
I should never write posts after midnight, I see I can be quite creative and make up new words...
fabulated :D I apologize to everybody who speaks English :D I just meant - the friend of Freddie fabricated the story to fit it to the real events.
|thanks queenfan09 I assume its an american
page as you mentioned the price in dollars ?
Mika don't worry, it's all good :)
|I have just read Peter's second book again. I am glad I did this as I had forgotten quite a lot. Just like Mercury & Co it did make me feel very sad how things turned out after Freddie died.
|The Black Queen's Kid
|I'm currently reading Peter Freestone's "Freddie Mercury, An Intimate Memoir by the Man who Knew Him Best". I think there may have been a volume prior to this one by Peter, but it may not still be in print. The copy I got was ordered through Amazon UK, as the only available copies through the U.S. Amazon site were 3rd party sellers wanting excessive cash. I am so glad I had an opportunity to read this book. I must say, however, that even though I know how the story ends it makes me cry.
|The Black Queen's Kid
|I've read books by David Minns and David Evans as well as absolute crap by some of the tabloid creatures. I wish that I hadn't contributed to their coffers. My only recourse at this stage is to write reviews on Amazon to let others know that these books are full of trash. For what it's worth. I guess we can all write fiction about our adventures with the marvelous Mr. Mercury and there are people who really want to know who he was that are willing to buy any and all publications. All we can do is try to get the word out.
|The Black Queens Kid what a good idea about spreading the word via amazon reviews...I hadn't thought of that. I too read the books full of trash before I realized. This site has been a godsend for finding out what is what.
Peter wrote two books and the Intimate Memoir is the first book and the second is what he left behind.
|queenfan09 - I checked out the thirftybooks website and found Peter Freestone's book for a decent price. It was the hardback copy - so I was especially excited about that. I have it on my kindle, but I like to go back and reread portions of the book and that is too difficult on the Kindle
doughnut - I agree - I was ready to buy several books before reading the reviews from this site.
I am currently reading The Virtuoso in the Closet and although it is fiction - I am enjoying it.
|From ChevyMan a few pages back:
Galileo, Gaetan Dugas wasnt he a flight attendant.I think they blamed alot on that guy and it's no more his fault than it is anyone else.This is the way I see things they were dealing with this awful virus that was killing people some in hours of getting to hospitals because they didnt know they were sick.They had to blame someone.So they pin it on gay men which I think was a chicken shit thing to do.By the time they dug their heads out of their ass and figured out what they were dealing with they noticed heterosexual people were getting it as well.So my question is why single one man out or one group of people just because you cant figure out what was truly causing AIDS?I dont get it.
Now me talking. (Quote feature doesn’t work on iPad).
Yes, Gaetan Dugas was an Air Canada Flight Attendant.
I’m not sure who you mean by “they”.
There really wasn’t any heads-in-arse thing among the doctors and scientists who treated and studied the early patients. Regan and some in his administration were another matter, as were various officials in France. The funding for the new disease was not in proportion to what other emerging public health issues received.
I lived in Canada during that era, where I grew up, but certainly heard the sort of stuff you’re saying from the Moral Majority type of people, so maybe that is what you’re reacting to.
In Europe (but not the UK) the first patients identified were heterosexual so over there they never understood the American view that it was a gay disease.
And to try to bring this back on topic, I heard somewhere that Freddie hated the stigma. Perhaps Phoebe said that. And I feel for him that he experienced that. I think he loved his doctors though. I certainly got that impression from Phoebe.
|Oh crap my post ended up in the wrong thread. Please ignore. It belongs in Thor’s thread.
|There will be a new book by Rudi Dolezal released on 1.June :)
Now I'm very glad I can speak German too :)
|oh now so will Rudi's book be in German ?
|this is the blurb for Rdui's book which is coming out in June, not sure if it will be in English as I had to translate this from German
There's been a lot said and written about Freddie Mercury. But what has never been there before is a book from the so-called inner circle, that small circle of friends and colleagues who really got to know the man Freddie Mercury, not just the Queen singer and superstar. Rudi Dolezal belonged to this inner circle. The multi-award-winning video and film director was not only the personal filmmaker of Freddie Mercury & Queen for over twenty years, but also one of his best friends. Now, more than 25 years after Mercury's tragic death, Dolezal has picked up his diaries and recalls his very personal story with the world star: from that moment on, as he, a young editor, sweats his hands on the first interview prepared with the singer, until the shocking phone call in which Mercury's manager told him about his death. For decades, Dolezal had been there where no journalist would ever have come: backstage at countless video shoots, concerts, and travel, but most of all private moments. This book is not a complete biography, says Rudi Dolezal, but tells stories, experiences, adventures that I experienced during many years as a director and friend with Freddie and I have not told anyone until today. And there's a lot to tell: from crazy parties where dwarfs were baked into chocolate cake, from the night a whole nightclub was redecorated for Freddie's 200,000 DM, from legendary concerts like the one in Rio de Janeiro, Freddie's in front of 600,000 spectators,
I'm sure there will be a translation. But I always prefer the original because the translation is always just only an interpretation of somebody else's thoughts.
As I mentioned earlier in this thread I have read some very surprising information in translated books about FM which never appeared in original language.
Without no doubts English translation will be great for sure. But original is always better ??
|LOL the annotation: there has never been a book from inner circle? Peter and Jim are what? A servant and a gardener of course they know nothing :D
|agree, that was my first thought 'never been a book from someone in the inner circle...ummmmm ........ I am sure that can't have come from Rudi? I hope not unless he lives under a rock lol
|emdee I have now read both of the V in the closet books. I enjoyed them ; they were a bit racey in parts lol
I am looking forward to the next instalment
|so I have just ordered Mercury & Me in paperback . I have it on kindle but I keep seeing people showing off their book version so I couldn't help myself. It was £6.78 and it is coming tomorrow as I have amazon prime
|Oh I would like to have mine on paper too. Enjoy the reading!
I'm spending my Friday evening searching for quotations from "in his own words" book in various interviews and articles. It is a great book but it annoys me that I don't know where does this or that bit come from so I can't put it into a context.
I really hope Dolezal is not that stupid to claim such things. It had to be written by publisher. Call me naive if you want :)
|I feel it is the publisher that has created the blurb from Rudi 's book .
However , I imagine he did know Freddie very well as he did a lot of the queen videos in the later part of the 80's and he did a few interviews, the last being the one in 1987 where he talks about the great pretender song. It looks like the interview was at Freddie home .
He did also do the untold story .
|has anyone got As it began? I would like it but it's so hard to get and expensive
|I have it only in Czech. It's quite impossible to get one in English.
How about contacting Queen fanclub and ask for reprint? It is an official Queen publication isn't it? Maybe they could consider it after BoRhap movie.
|Jim's book was very good, I get the feeling that they really loved each other. But there were some things that were a bit sensationalised, I think.
|mariah yes some say that about Jim's book. I'm not totally sure which bits have been as I didn't get that feeling when I read it. I was def left with the feeling that Jim loved Freddie very much
|^ I think the rows they had were exaggerated a bit, it was co written with a journalist after all
|yes that is possible although I believe that had rows, especially during the time Freddie was messing him around with other men. The book has him either leaving of his own accord or Freddie passing on a message for him to leave. In a few interviews Jim gave, he mentions the rows but not the moving out or being thrown out part. This is with regards to their early ones, not the one in 1990.
|I believe that they happened, I just think that some were a bit exaggerated to make everything more interesting :D Though, Jim deserves every bit of respect for putting up with Freddie's antics and staying with him till his death. I can't believe that there are so many people who hate on him...
|And I've read bits of "Freddie Mercury: His Life In His Own Words" and saw some interesting quotes what Freddie said about AIDS, some of these I'm seeing for the first time
|well, this site is truly a mess
|it's not a good site, it's old lol .
|Ms. Carey those quotes are from an interview with David Wigg in 1987 after Freddie was diagnosed. I’ve heard audio of some of this on youtube, but there is some interesting material here I haven’t heard before. If I’m not mistaken the full interview is on the Freddie Mercury box set which is now OOP.
Well, I recognize some of it word for word. The rest I’m presuming is from the interview and not creative writing.
An attempt at clickable links:
The TV ads he refers to would be from the “Don’t Die of Ignorance” Campaign. Those can be found on youtube if anyone is curious.
|Thank you, Galileo :) here is another quote I have never seen - link It's very sad
|I’m not familiar with this website. What is the source of these quotes? When I recognize wording I’ve heard before in Freddie’s voice, that’s one thing. But this one is clearly pre-diagnosis, and is not attached to anything I’ve heard before. How do we know these are Freddie’s words and not fan fic?
After all you said on another thread that there was no HIV testing before 1985, and that is BS. So I already know you are not always so careful about your sources.
There was limited testing in 1983 starting in France and by 1984 there was more widespread testing as well as numerous studies publishing the results of testing. The 1985 date is when the test was licensed, specifically for cleaning up the blood supply.
Not trying to be mean, just that so many people have just made stuff up about Freddie that we like to be careful of our sources around here. We wouldn’t want you to be duped by someone.
|^As I said, it's from that book by Greg Brooks - "Freddie Mercury: His Life in His Own Words" (it's just his own words told in interviews). Well yeah, but they were just testing and the first test was licensed in 1985, so it's very very very unlikely that Freddie would have known that he was HIV positive in 1984 and told that to a ****ing journalist, when HIV wasn't even called HIV untill 1986. link
|It was variously called HTLV III, LAV or ARV, but now when one refers to the time before the name HIV was agreed upon, everyone says HIV. No one says “the virus now known as HIV but then known as HTLVIII/LAV”. It’s common practice to speak of HIV testing in ‘84 or ‘85, even though the kits said something different on the label. Try searching HIV in pubmed and you’ll pull up papers before 1986.
Oh, I doubt he was tested in 1984 and I don’t believe he would have told David Wigg and no one else. I think Wigg is lying. I’m just saying the test existed. Freddie’s doctor Graeme Moyle said this in the horrible movie “Who Wants to Live Forever”. Bad movie, but great interview with Dr. Moyle, although broken into pieces. But the nomenclature thing is just a distraction.
Anyway. . . I was asking when the quote that refers to the shower is from and who did the interview. Is there a year for that from the book?
|OK, so I bought the book on kindle for $10.
I see what you did. You put text from the book up on this site and then gave us the links. I didn’t know that was what you were doing. I thought you just randomly found these quotes on that website.
Typical Greg Brooks I guess. No documentation at all. Clearly these quotes are from different years. Oh well. Probably all interviews with David Wigg.
Galileo1564 wrote: OK, so I bought the book on kindle for $10. I see what you did. You put text from the book up on this site and then gave us the links. I didn’t know that was what you were doing. I thought you just randomly found these quotes on that website. Typical Greg Brooks I guess. No documentation at all. Clearly these quotes are from different years. Oh well. Probably all interviews with David Wigg.I'm doing a project right know when I'm trying to source the quotes from that book and it's a real mess. Sometimes half of sentence comes from one interview and the second half from another one. Once I'm done, I can share it if you want. But it won't be next week :D
There are not only DW interviews there is almost everything recorded or written down by various journalists. It is quite exciting to source all the quotes.
|Oh my goodness what a huge project. I would love if if you shared that!
I’m just assuming that any discussion of his sex life is with DW. I realize it’s not just DW for the whole book. ;)
|mika I listened to all the david wigg interviews from the Freddie Mercury solo collection yesterday. I was nice to hear him say some of the things that I had only seen in print inthe book 'Freddie in his own words.
Even in this book there are parts of what Freddie said in interviews missed out. Also the book has quotes mentioned more than once and you can't fathom when he said them.
I have never seen in anywhere other than in Greg's book the part when he says he wants to get in the shower after sex in case that time gave him the virus.
I am looking for a few sources if you have them
have you seen any source where Brian/Roger actually said 'freddie is the happiest we have seen him ' . A lot of people refer to this when talking about Freddie and Jim. I would prefer to know this is true before believing it.
Mika you are great by the way and Id love to see it when you have finished
|I didn't source this particular "after sex" source yet. But I'm only at the beginning. :) I'm quite annoyed because I didn't think it will be such mess. I thought at least sentences will be kept as a whole but no, it's all one big chaos. There are also factual inaccuracies such as the quote seems to be about Night at the Opera album and when you locate the original quote you find out he spoke about Sheer heart attack.
|So has anyone read Queen album by album martin popoff is it any good?
|I haven't read this book. I have read 40 years of queen and another which I can't remember the name of right ow. Its by Marc Blake. I thought both were good and gave lots of information on the band without focusing just on Freddie
|I have read most of the books on Freddie or Queen. Am I the only one who thought that David Minns This is the Real Life was kinda harsh.
The way he portrays Freddie is violent. I did notice in the biggest fight they have it's all from his point of view and lists no actions he actually did. I am sure it wasn't just David sitting there while Freddie threw things at him and then just unprovoked hit him on the head with a glass candlestick.
I made an idiot out of myself on Instagram and said that freddie wasn't violent. Then someone references that book. Idk what to think at the moment. Freddie seems like he could be phyisically violent towards his lovers and that is seriously disappointing and disheartening. What is your view on it?
|Perk....I didn't finish This is the Real Life feeling it was harsh on Freddie. I have found out enough about Freddie from when he first started out with the band until his death to realize he was far from perfect. When he first starting seeing David and remember it was Freddie that went after David, Freddie was still with Mary and was most likely really struggling juggling them both and this likely caused bouts of anger caused by frustration. At the time Freddie seemed to be quite a diva and it must have been very hard having a relationship with him.
I have seen evidence that Freddie loved David, there are notes he wrote to David confirming this.
The book was written by David Evans and David Minns so it will be from their point of view. From memory of the book , David and Freddie had a row and David hit Freddie over the head with whatever it was and Freddie punched him him back. Yes I agree David started it and in truth reading it all these years later it's quite amusing if you picture the scene of two gay men fighting . Wasn't it because Freddie had decided to go to the beach with another guy that started it all? I can't quite remember.
Anyway I didn't finish the book thinking freddie or david were violent, I just put it down to a heated row that went to far.
Apart from this I don't recall other instances of Freddie being violent towards boyfriends although he did used to get into big rows with them verbally as he helped his creative output. He once said if he falls in love and has a lovely relationship bang goes all the best songs .
The problem with Freddie was he had a couple of his lovers cheat on him and that gave him trust issues but at the same time he found it perfectly ok to cheat on them.
In short this is what made Freddie such an interesting and complex character and why we all want to find out about him
|That relationship was toxic and they both were pretty shitty to each other. I got the feeling that David was a very sensitive person and a bit of a whiner, because for a whole book he just talked about how horrible was Freddie to him, but brushed off his own wrong doings (like throwing ashtrays or hitting head with clogs). And I think that a lot of their fights that they had, had a lot to do with internalized homophobia, keeping in mind that Freddie's parents were homophobic and judgemental. Also, we have to remember that this story is written from David's perspective and it's gonna be biased. There was a discussion about this book a few pages back, and I think it was pretty spot on.
|This is what Paul Prenter said about their fight in that interview with The Sun:
"Prenter told how the singer took his friend David Minns with him to Florida – but soon went off to the beach with a camp American dancer called Dane Clark.
"Minns screamed at Freddie calling him a 'faceless hussy'," said Prenter.
"Later in the hotel lift, Minns suddenly took off his shoe and started beating Freddie over the head.
"Freddie smacked Minns in the teeth and he collapsed on the floor.""
|I don't take much notice of what is printed in the sun but this story from Paul matches with David Minns account . I really can't blame David for being pissed with Freddie . Who would like to see their man/woman flirting with another on purpose. That is just what Freddie used to do even right up to the begging of his relationship with Jim.
David must have been very pisssed to have hit Freddie with his shoe but in the heat of the moment who are we to judge, we weren't there .
Also remember that Freddie came back from the US with Joe Fanelli and was more than happy to continue a relationship with both of them. When things started to go wrong with joe, Freddie would go back to David moaning about it. Can't say I'd be best pleased with this.
Also don't forget Freddie wanted David to sign an agreement that he wouldn't dish any dirt.
In conclusion they were probably both a nightmare but Freddie in my opinion could of treated David better. Freddie hit on Jim and pulled him into his mad world and he did the same with David although with David he had mixed in the same circles.
I think we have to acknowledge that Freddie wasn't the best in relationships , even though he was searching for lasting love, he couldn't remain faithful. You can't expect a partner to remain faithful but cheat yourself.
|Yeah, but at least they made up and became friends again. Freddie himself has said in a few interviews that he wasn't very good at relationships. He also had lots of insecurities and they probably affected his behaviour. Also, in the 70s and 80s same sex relationships weren't viewed equally to heterosexual relationships and Freddie was a rock star, so that could have made it even more difficult to create a meaningful relationship.
I also read that book by Rosemary Pearson, Freddie's first girlfriend and from what was written about him, it looks like he was kind of an emotional wreck in the late 60s.
|I have read many articles and books about Queen that are listed here. Also, I am now reading books that they indicated in various interviews. In fact, they made a lot of links to the classical literature that I download from this site. Although, Freddie didn't like reading books.