| pittrek 05.10.2016 04:58 |
Those of you who are STILL debating whether or not the Golders Green Hippodrome recording was ever aired in quad for some reason, listen to this : link HUGE thanks to Mr. Kurgan for sharing the link |
| . 05.10.2016 05:19 |
According to page 32 of the November 24th 1973 issue of Billboard, $7.97 would get you Queen's debut album Q8 8Q75064 (a Quadrasonic 8-track cartridge). |
| cmi 05.10.2016 05:31 |
Well, the quality of these presentor speech is excellent. It's interesting, is there a recording of the followed Golders Green gig in such quality... |
| . 05.10.2016 06:30 |
It was taken from a discrete 4-channel quad reel tape featuring Randy Newman & Queen. It's listed here (March 2nd 1975 entry) titled BBC Presents Live From London. http://www.eclipse67.com/kbi.htm There was a WMMS radio broadcast that same evening at 9pm featuring Randy Newman & Queen titled BBC Presents. |
| GinjaNinja 05.10.2016 13:50 |
Great find Kurgan! Interesting that the 1977 BBC Session is also noted as being in quad, would that broadcast have been one dubbed with audience noise? |
| Arnaldo "Ogre-" Silveira 05.10.2016 14:04 |
Now THOSE could end up in a fantastic surround release, either on SACD or Audio DVD. I can dream, can't I? *singing One Vision: "I had a dream... when I was young... a dream of sweet illusion...". Cheers, Ogre- |
| brians wig 05.10.2016 14:11 |
Sadly it's not likely that QPL will ever release the quad debut LP, not the 1977 BBC session (otherwise you'd have thought they'd had included a separate disc in the boxset) |
| Arnaldo "Ogre-" Silveira 05.10.2016 15:29 |
Sad, but true, Brians Wig! Cheers, Ogre- |
| . 07.10.2016 10:08 |
Also, BBC session 6 was broadcast in quad matrix H on Radio 1 FM in the UK on Jan 2nd 1978. Program Title - Jonathan King Rules (produced By Dave Tate) |
| OwenSmith 07.10.2016 10:59 |
The Kurgan wrote: Also, BBC session 6 was broadcast in quad matrix H on Radio 1 FM in the UK on Jan 2nd 1978. Program Title - Jonathan King Rules (produced By Dave Tate)I always thought that was an Alan Freeman broadcast. |
| OwenSmith 07.10.2016 11:03 |
The Kurgan wrote: It was taken from a discrete 4-channel quad reel tape of the Golders Green Hippodrome concert on September 13th 1973. The quad broadcast by WMMS radio in Cleveland was on March 2nd 1975.Is there an off air reel to reel stereo recording of the FM broadcast? If there is I have a friend that can do an excellent quad SQ decode of it. Or does the discrete 4 track quad reel still exist? None of this Queen stuff in quad will become available unless someone tracks down some tapes or transcription discs. I have tried. The Golders Green transcription discs I have seen for sale have not been marked as SQ, and the BBC transcription service was very good at correctly marking things. |
| . 07.10.2016 14:27 |
OwenSmith wrote:I have the track listing now, and it appears that the four tracks played on the Jonathan King Matrix H broadcast are different and may be from the NOTW album and not session 6.The Kurgan wrote: Also, BBC session 6 was broadcast in quad matrix H on Radio 1 FM in the UK on Jan 2nd 1978. Program Title - Jonathan King Rules (produced By Dave Tate)I always thought that was an Alan Freeman broadcast. - We Will Rock You - We Are The Champions - It's Late - Get Down, Make Love Source: - link |
| matt z 11.10.2016 10:33 |
I've seen the first album come up on REGULAR 8 track ET-85064 but not that quad. interesting to hear about this. gonna keep my eyes wide open for this one Surely someone here could potentially track a copy down (*if it's not extinct). If I find one I'll mail it to someone who could do the work to separate the tracks. Cause I don't have the specs |
| . 11.10.2016 13:52 |
I did ask the guy who owns this one to check if it was quad, no reply as yet. |
| matt z 11.10.2016 14:57 |
^ Shouldn't have asked. should've just offered to buy it cause "I'm a queen geek" ... now the fella might research the relative obscurity of it and add a big ZERO to the price ;-) all the ones I've seen are black cassettes. Can't clearly read the catalogue number there but it looks like it begins with an 8. that's it |
| . 11.10.2016 15:05 |
^ That's why I asked him. He is a Queen collector, and I am not stupid ;-D |
| matt z 11.10.2016 15:07 |
this appears to be the regular STEREO version (says stereo at the bottom) |
| matt z 11.10.2016 15:09 |
second image Debut album stereo 8 track |
| . 11.10.2016 15:11 |
Yep. |
| matt z 11.10.2016 15:14 |
The Kurgan wrote: ^ That's why I asked him. He is a Queen collector, and I am not stupid ;-Dmy apologies, Sir. I didn't mean THAT haha |
| . 11.10.2016 15:19 |
,,, and, I KNOW HIS NAME. |
| matt z 11.10.2016 15:22 |
haha. .. yeah. You don't wanna mess with the Kurgan.... unless you're Christopher Lambert. How is it that this QUAD possibility was overlooked before? You guys seem to have things covered better than Queen Productions. most of the time WITHOUT original source material. (sadly, checking out existing sales of queen 8 tracks the labels seem to vary quite a bit even on same albums) never heard anything in Quad, though I always heard Sly Stone recorded one and Quadrophenia/Lifehouse were intended but never done |
| . 11.10.2016 15:48 |
Just found out he sold it along with another 9 Queen titles for $46 Canadian Dollars. It turns out it was 8EK-75064 http://www.discogs.com/Queen-Queen/release/5856622 |
| matt z 11.10.2016 16:04 |
shit! How sad. ... what confused me was the housing. I knew very little about 8 tracks until this topic came up. the original Quads had a notch/indent on the top left corner. this one did not. However reviewing auctions it seems to be practice to RESTORE old quad recordings and many are being sold second hand in regular STEREO housings. How odd. I'll bet Brian saw your topic and remembered. then he propositioned the collector and talked him down on price. s#@@$//¤¥¥! and I'll bet they're freaking RARE |
| matt z 11.10.2016 16:06 |
link it's showing that this guy has a copy |
| . 11.10.2016 16:12 |
8EK appears to be a prefix for standard Canadian 8-track. |
| matt z 11.10.2016 16:25 |
ah right. Q8 ... dang. Overlooking things while trying to multitask at work. my apologies. This thing is probably in Japan or at a record executives house. I'm sure the format was super rare. Funny. Didn't catch the previous topic "REAL QUEEN FACT? SOMEBODY HAS IT?" regarding the quad release that was supposedly completely shelved. Maybe it's just misinformation on the part of that author: By sourcing proper materials he'd noted that it was catalogued. But seeing how it'd never come up, Maybe it WAS shelved. (before production) |
| . 12.10.2016 03:05 |
Dead formats are where all the gems live. |
| brians wig 12.10.2016 03:20 |
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| dysan 12.10.2016 04:11 |
I collect 8 tracks and enjoy fixing them. |
| OwenSmith 24.11.2016 17:43 |
So to sum up, this thread has provided no information that I didn't know 2 years ago (and I posted it all on Queenzone so stop claiming info on this thread is new). Listings of the catalogue number for quad Queen I on Q8 mean nothing, a number of albums from many bands were listed as being released in quad but were never actually mixed. Golders Green clearly did exist in quad SQ encoded but still no-one has a copy, so it can't be decoded. And session 6 definitely was broadcast as a remix in Matrix H quad after the first broadcast, this has been known for decades. But there are so many bootlegs of session 6 and chances are the Matrix H quad mixed by Tony Wilson for the Alan Freeman show was only broadcast once, and a recording has never surfaced. What a shame. If anyone has copies of this stuff please get in touch. There is a very active quad restoration community and great work can be done. |
| Barry Durex 24.11.2016 17:54 |
But there is new info in this thread? An actual quad radio announcement for starters! Also proof that a Q8 tape was actually advertised in billboard, even if was never actually released. |
| Barry Durex 24.11.2016 17:57 |
PS. Silly question perhaps, but have you checked QOA for quad on GG and session six? |
| Wilki Amieva 28.11.2016 21:40 |
I did research on this some time ago. The debut album was mixed in quad, and it was mastered to 8-track (4-track discrete) and probably LP (SQ) by Elektra, but NEVER released. The mix should be in the vaults. The Golders Green Hippodrome show quad mix should also be in the vaults - at least SQ-encoded, but don't expect great front/back separation. |
| brians wig 30.11.2016 07:52 |
OMG. I don't suppose QII was mixed to Quad as well? Great Research Wilki !!!!! |
| OwenSmith 05.12.2016 11:12 |
Wilki Amieva wrote: I did research on this some time ago. The debut album was mixed in quad, and it was mastered to 8-track (4-track discrete) and probably LP (SQ) by Elektra, but NEVER released. The mix should be in the vaults. The Golders Green Hippodrome show quad mix should also be in the vaults - at least SQ-encoded, but don't expect great front/back separation.What are your sources for Queen I being mixed in quad? Do you have links? Why would the front-back separation on Golders Green quad be poor? Are you talking about what was recorded and mixed? Or are you making claims about the ability to decode SQ, in which case we can do a LOT better these days than legacy hardware decoders could ever achieve. Personally I remain unconvinced by a lot of this. I've never managed to unearth even a sniff of any actual audio in quad for Queen. Just plenty of rumours about the three items we are discussing. |
| OwenSmith 05.12.2016 11:12 |
Duplicate post deleted |
| . 06.12.2016 05:16 |
Any thoughts on this ''experimental'' pressing? Seller claims it to be the debut album. link |
| Wilki Amieva 07.12.2016 06:11 |
OwenSmith wrote: What are your sources for Queen I being mixed in quad? Do you have links?I found some Elektra sheets with the same info as posted above about a decade ago (remember posting about this in QueenZone at the time), then asked about this to Queen Productions Ltd. personnel some years later, after I started working with them. That lead to me talking with some of the people that worked at Trident Audio Productions at the time, and they confirmed the mix was done. Queen had it in their vaults - it should be still there. Why would the front-back separation on Golders Green quad be poor? Are you talking about what was recorded and mixed? Or are you making claims about the ability to decode SQ, in which case we can do a LOT better these days than legacy hardware decoders could ever achieve.Yeah, I know we can now use a digital matrix to decode SQ - sometimes I have to do just that in my studio (I offer analog-to-digital audio transfer and sound restoration services). But you surely understand that the front/back separation would be as good as it was when encoded (analogically) in the first place. Mixes made for broadcast were usually made to be (as) mono-compatible (as possible), and for that to work using a phase-shifting algorithm, front/back separation would be compromised in the original 4-channel discrete mix. |
| Wilki Amieva 07.12.2016 06:13 |
The Kurgan wrote: Any thoughts on this ''experimental'' pressing? Seller claims it to be the debut album.Ask her/him for the matrix number. |
| . 07.12.2016 09:38 |
Wilki Amieva wrote:Matrix# YAX 4624-3U AGAIN!The Kurgan wrote: Any thoughts on this ''experimental'' pressing? Seller claims it to be the debut album.Ask her/him for the matrix number. |
| Wilki Amieva 07.12.2016 15:41 |
A third press, if I recall correctly. |
| . 08.12.2016 04:52 |
Wilki Amieva wrote: A third press, if I recall correctly.Quite, but what makes the disc experimental? |
| Wilki Amieva 08.12.2016 13:52 |
Nothing. The first copies of each run went usually to the lab, grooves to be measured and performance checked. BTW, I think I have a similar disc, from the 2nd run. |
| . 08.12.2016 14:09 |
Interesting, thanks for the info. |
| . 13.02.2019 08:33 |
Wilki Amieva wrote: The Golders Green Hippodrome show quad mix should also be in the vaults - at least SQ-encoded, but don't expect great front/back separation.After reading through this thread again, I noticed I missed your above post and would like to make a rather late reply. The master copy of "In Concert" found in the BBC archives in 2001 is supposedly SQ encoded. As far as I'm aware that Randy Newman / Queen edit was made available by the BBC for broadcast in the US only. Despite the subsequent decoding of it using SQdecode 1.2, it still doesn't sound like proper "quad" to me. I even tried decoding it again myself, with exactly the same result. Are basing your front/back separation claim on that particular master? |
| Wilki Amieva 02.03.2019 19:19 |
Oh, boy... The master copy was not actually found in 2001. The BBC just professionally digitised that tape in that particular year. I know, because I managed to get an official CD-R from the transfer. It is definetely quad, but the front/rear separation is poor. That has nothing to do with the SQ technology capabilities, but with BBC restrictions in its use due to mandatory mono-compatibility for radio broadcasts at the time. Unfortunately, the 4-channel discrete master mix was never found. |
| Wilki Amieva 02.03.2019 20:45 |
Also, there are several processes that can alter the phase in a recording and that can render the SQ information at least partly unretrievable. If the tape was not flagged as SQ prior to the transfer and processing, it's quite easy to overlook some requirements and lose the encoded information. Do you know the lineage of your source? |
| . 02.03.2019 22:37 |
Thanks for the reply. Of course it was there in the BBC archive all the time, but they had to find it first to digitize it right? :-D One of my sources is the same copy of that BBC Worldwide CD-R. My understanding is there was never a quad broadcast in the UK, only that 26:24 edit made for US broadcast. If that was the case then surely any BBC broadcast compatibility restrictions would not apply? In any event I still find that edited transfer to be devoid of any real quad separation, via software or external hardware. link |
| Wilki Amieva 03.03.2019 13:07 |
The mix must be done according to BBC standards. Where the suits define it's going to be broadcast is not relevant. |
| . 03.03.2019 14:21 |
Also the BBC Worldwide CD-R disc is labelled CN2073, not followed by the all important /SQ. |
| brians wig 03.03.2019 15:15 |
Nice information guys! Now. Shall we stir the pot and get everyone excited with talk of the Quad mix of Queen (debut) that never got released? |
| Wilki Amieva 04.03.2019 22:13 |
I've checked the picture you provided, it looks very similar to my quad decoding of Son And Daughter from the original BBC CD-R. As you said, that CD is just labeled as 'CN 2073'. That means nothing, really. As far as I know, none of the CDs in the series was labelled "/SQ" as the LPs were, irrespective of the masters being SQ-encoded or not. But -come to think about it- what would be the use of such a distinction? These CD-Rs are for archival purposes, not for broadcasting. Anyway, we already know this particular edit of the show was done over the SQ-encoded master. But, if you want more proof, you can analyse the weird phase distribution in the original 2-channel files. There's something very odd there, and -being a professional surround sound engineer-, I cannot find other explanation that would fit as good as SQ informationb being contained therein. All this has left me quite puzzled. I shall go back to those audio files again... |
| . 05.03.2019 10:06 |
I would expect an archival copy to retain the SQ labeling, despite the fact that it is not intended for broadcast. Even if it is identical to the SQ broadcast that went out in the states, it sounds unlike any other BBC SQ encoded transfer I have ever heard. Have you tried decoding from the complete master reel copy rather than this edit? |
| Wilki Amieva 05.03.2019 15:27 |
Yes, despite the fact that the complete master reel is clearly not SQ encoded. |
| . 05.03.2019 16:19 |
The master reel is not SQ encoded? |
| Wilki Amieva 05.03.2019 21:24 |
I mean the full one that's been around for ages - it is not. |
| . 05.03.2019 22:02 |
I'm not so sure the full "master" reel would have been encoded to SQ anyway. Wasn't the BBC using CD4 and QS encoding around 1973? I tried decoding On Air Golders Green, and also the pro studio master of BBC Session 6 with SQdecode. Interesting to note is the experimental -90 degree phase shift option that can be used before decoding. I'm thinking that might cause some sort of weird phase distribution though :-D Interesting read: link I'm editing this on a mobile phone and it's a nightmare! |
| Wilki Amieva 11.03.2019 14:47 |
This is a VERY good read, Kurgan! Thanks. It shall be interesting to check what the BBC thought about mono-compatibility of quad matrices. |
| . 11.03.2019 17:57 |
It may transpire that the full 4 channel master reel was never actually transferred with quad encoding. It might be just sitting in the vault waiting for somebody to do just that. After all, the only BBC broadcast in the UK (which also featured Peter Skellern) was not in quad. link I believe the SQ encoding on the short edit used for the US broadcast a few years later was possibly flawed in some way. |
| . 19.07.2019 10:04 |
A similar SQ decode method that GingaNinja used in 2011, can be used with the On Air release. This was the result: |
| . 31.10.2019 12:54 |
Could this be the elusive quad encoded broadcast of the 1977 BBC sessions? link The recording date of the WMMR broadcast (June 18th 1978) corresponds with a blank KBFH (DQR) entry listed here: link |
| zephead2112 31.10.2019 15:08 |
Hi Kurgan, Is that not merely the King Biscuit Flower Hour broadcast? They put on that horrible crowd noise to make it sound like a live performance. I see that KBFH is written in the description. Cheers, Keith. |
| . 31.10.2019 16:51 |
I explain my reasoning in this thread: link |
