| Costa86 23.06.2016 07:50 |
Today's the day folks. If you're British (or a Commonwealth citizen resident in the UK) and haven't yet gone over to your local polling station, do find it in yourself to brave the bad weather and make your opinion count. Personally, I'm with the remain camp - Europe desperately needs to change, but it's together that we can survive and improve, not out all alone. We'll know tomorrow early morning. Either way it goes, it's going to be a very important day for Britain, Europe, and even countries like the US. |
| BETA215 24.06.2016 04:26 |
Aaaand... it's fucked up. Great. Now we'll see more crisis than before. Woohoo... |
| pittrek 24.06.2016 06:18 |
Congratulations to all Brits who wanted to leave |
| mooghead 24.06.2016 06:33 |
I voted out but I'm not feeling euphoric over the outcome, almost a 'shame it had to come to this' attitude. Please for the love of God don't make Boris the next PM. |
| tcc 24.06.2016 07:34 |
Politicians are voted in to make decisions for the country. Having referendums is passing the buck to the people to decide what to do - many of them may not know how to think. |
| . 24.06.2016 08:46 |
Same applies to some Politicians though, doesn't it? |
| brENsKi 24.06.2016 10:07 |
well...well...well despite the polls suggesting a Remain victory, Brexit prevails 52-48%. The £ and FTSE are already staging a minor recovery following the initial expected slump. The UK will be much better long-term - freed from the red-tape and shackling that is sinking Federal Europe. Cameron resigns, Corbyn next. Osbourne should too - but will snivel and duck and dive his way thru this - like the weasel he is. Mark Carney should also resign. Governor of bank of England is supposed to be apolitical/neutral - but he openly promoted an IN vote - using his position to threaten. Netherlands, Denmark, Sweden and Austria rumoured to be next...added to the "withdrawl" by the Swiss of the application to join....Europe as a economic state will die. Ironic isn't it that Nicola Sturgeon appears to be backing the wrong horse by motioning for a second Scottish independence referendum. It may not look like it at the moment, but Britain took a huge step toward improvement and progress today. |
| brENsKi 24.06.2016 10:11 |
tcc wrote: Politicians are voted in to make decisions for the country. Having referendums is passing the buck to the people to decide what to do - many of them may not know how to think.that is incredibly insulting. who says we (the voters) don't know exactly what to decide? also, your "average joe" - if they have an Economics O-level, is more qualified to run the British economy than the current chancellor. |
| Oscar J 24.06.2016 12:13 |
brENsKi wrote: that is incredibly insulting. who says we (the voters) don't know exactly what to decide? https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/the-switch/wp/2016/06/24/the-british-are-frantically-googling-what-the-eu-is-hours-after-voting-to-leave-it/?tid=pm_business_pop_b :) |
| Saint Jiub 24.06.2016 19:52 |
Good riddence to Brussels bureaucracy. link |
| YourValentine 25.06.2016 03:27 |
This was really a sad day yesterday. We have a whole generation who does not even remember how life was before the EU. Our British students are now very worried what will happen to them. As EU citizens they can study here for free like any other EU student and many of them cannot afford to pay the enormous English tuition fees. I hope there will be a solution for them but I cannot believe that the referendum took away all that freedom and all the chances for the young people. Certainly, many "brexit" voters never left their island and just do not appreciate all the good things that come with EU membership. The first lie about the alleged 350 billion pounds they pay for Brussels each week already collapsed 7 hours after the referendum and was called a "mistake". Now Mr. Cameron will not declare the exit of the UK to the EU but he will wait until October when his party will have elected another leader. Mr. Johnson, however, wants Cameron to do the job, why? Maybe because he has zero experience in diplomatic negotiating? I hope the proverbial English fairness will prevail and the exit comes soon, so the damage for the EU and the UK can be limited. But Cameron announced the referendum in the first place to increase his chances in the last election and so it happened that a prime minister sacrificed the future of his country to serve his own personal advantage. And the EU - it's not that I am not critical about so many things in the EU, it desperately needs reforms. The irony of the whole story is that the "brexit" now will lead to the much needed reforms but England will be out, anyway. |
| Sebastian 25.06.2016 06:26 |
YourValentine wrote: The irony of the whole story is that the "brexit" now will lead to the much needed reforms but England will be out, anyway.Not just England but also Wales, Northern Ireland and Scotland, at least temporarily. |
| Sebastian 25.06.2016 06:26 |
DP. |
| Costa86 25.06.2016 16:25 |
YourValentine wrote: This was really a sad day yesterday. We have a whole generation who does not even remember how life was before the EU. Our British students are now very worried what will happen to them. As EU citizens they can study here for free like any other EU student and many of them cannot afford to pay the enormous English tuition fees. I hope there will be a solution for them but I cannot believe that the referendum took away all that freedom and all the chances for the young people. Certainly, many "brexit" voters never left their island and just do not appreciate all the good things that come with EU membership. The first lie about the alleged 350 billion pounds they pay for Brussels each week already collapsed 7 hours after the referendum and was called a "mistake". 5 Now Mr. Cameron will not declare the exit of the UK to the EU but he will wait until October when his party will have elected another leader. Mr. Johnson, however, wants Cameron to do the job, why? Maybe because he has zero experience in diplomatic negotiating? I hope the proverbial English fairness will prevail and the exit comes soon, so the damage for the EU and the UK can be limited. But Cameron announced the referendum in the first place to increase his chances in the last election and so it happened that a prime minister sacrificed the future of his country to serve his own personal advantage. And the EU - it's not that I am not critical about so many things in the EU, it desperately needs reforms. The irony of the whole story is that the "brexit" now will lead to the much needed reforms but England will be out, anyway.So well said. Agree 100% |
| Barry Durex 26.06.2016 08:33 |
So when if is "reformed" to our liking we just apply to go back in. Only if we agree on it another referendum of course. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 26.06.2016 08:41 |
I have so many questions. What is the possibility of a second vote on this or of Scotland blocking it, as has been suggested (by Nicola Sturgeon)? Are either of those viable options - and, if so, should they be? In my attempt to get a sense of how people really feel, after-the-fact, all I'm getting is spin about how rampant buyer's remorse is over this. Is there truth to that in any substantial way? |
| Barry Durex 26.06.2016 09:40 |
In the UK we had a sitcom called Yes Minister. The situation we are in could be mistaken for an episode from it. |
| tcc 26.06.2016 09:56 |
The latest news that I read was the PM said no to a second referendum. Another minister said a referendum was a referendum (meaning the country should just accept the results) and it should not be a neverendum. I like British humour :-) |
| Barry Durex 26.06.2016 10:53 |
Current PM has a 3 month life span and so do his comments. |
| YourValentine 26.06.2016 10:54 |
magicalfreddiemercury wrote: I have so many questions. What is the possibility of a second vote on this or of Scotland blocking it, as has been suggested (by Nicola Sturgeon)? Are either of those viable options - and, if so, should they be? In my attempt to get a sense of how people really feel, after-the-fact, all I'm getting is spin about how rampant buyer's remorse is over this. Is there truth to that in any substantial way?From what we hear there is a lot of regret - mostly from the younger generation who simply did not get the importance of the referendum and did not bother to vote. Now they are online petitioning for another referendum by the millions (!!) but democracy takes place in real life and not in the social media. A second vote would probably deepen the rift in the country even more. I cannot imagine that the parliament would dare to ignore the public vote - no matter how close the outcome was, majority is majority. Scotland voted "remain" with about 62% . Before the refeferendum took place the first minister had announced that she would prepare another go at Scottish independence if the majority would vote "remain", now she is honouring her word. I do not know if it is actually legally possible but there will be another long and straining process and Scotland wants to negotiate with the EU in order to keep the Scottish membership. After two days it seems like the leave campaign does not have a plan how to handle the exit which is bad for the UK and bad for the EU - we really need clarity soon. One thing is sure: in my country the popularity of the EU miraculously sky rocketed after watching the "brexit". The worst part is the unexpected rise of open racism in the UK, we never expected that, it's simply horrible. We have our own problems with xenophobia and we are just learning that it is a can of worms nobody should open for political gain. |
| Barry Durex 26.06.2016 11:14 |
The PM gave us a referendum. He and his party should have prepared for either outcome. Clearly they planned for only one outcome and he now takes the easy option and resigns. |
| brENsKi 26.06.2016 11:24 |
Barb they do have a plan. but before Wednesday's meeting with the Euro council, it's impossible to take it forward. worryingly - for Germany (and France?) is that lobbyists in Netherlands, Denmark, Austria, Sweden and France! now want similar referendums. the Eurozone could disappear up it's own Schengen Zone |
| Oscar J 26.06.2016 13:34 |
Two out of three Swedes want to stay in the EU, luckily. I was considering to study my master in England in one or two years. After Brexit I'm not sure what'll happen with the fees etc. Sigh. |
| Bad Seed 26.06.2016 14:17 |
Oscar J wrote: Two out of three Swedes want to stay in the EU, luckily. I was considering to study my master in England in one or two years. After Brexit I'm not sure what'll happen with the fees etc. Sigh.6 months ago, two out of three Brit's wanted to stay in the EU. Luckily we changed our mind. |
| YourValentine 26.06.2016 14:43 |
Brenski, I am not too worried about more referendums. First of all I do hope for reforms, the EU is really very shocked about the brexit. Secondly, in most countries, the parliament must decide about a referendum and we can only hope that the discussion will be more honest and more facts- based than the brexit referendum. I think the leave campaign only won because Cameron has blamed all shortcomings in the UK on "Brussels" in recent years. He created this prejudice that English governments are totally helpless and only Brussels is in the wrong. Of course, there is always a grain of truth in such statements - there is a lack of democratic structures in the EU and the benefits that come from the union are not distributed in a fair way, the hard working people are not the biggest winners. But the huge dishonesty and phoneyness of Cameron lies in the fact that the Tories always were the driving force behind radical market rules and lack of social security. Of course Merkel is now sorry to lose her partner in crime having to face the socialists from France and Spain all by herself :-) Anyway, I think that a referendum in other countries would have a more determined "remain" campaign with people spelling out the good things that come from the EU and not leaving a country in the same state of division that the UK are now facing. |
| Costa86 27.06.2016 05:19 |
YV mentioned the rise in racism. There have been numerous reports of racism towards Polish people, some of whom have been here for three or four generations. Cards saying "Leave the EU No more Polish Vermin" where posted through their letterboxes. The Polish Cultural Centre in Hammersmith had graffiti sprayed on its walls. This Centre has been there for 60 years. (I've read some theories by idiotic conspiracy nuts that these attacks were perpetrated by Remainers to try to make the Leavers look bad. This is rubbish.) There have also been many reports of people who don't look English (for instance, Italians) being told "now you have to leave". I am certian that these things will continue to happen with increasing frequency now. As YV writes, a big can of worms has been opened, and this is a tragedy. Is this what it has come to? Racism against fellow Europeans with the same culture? I'm not Polish, but all the Poles I know here in the UK are decent, hard-working people, who have all integrated completely with English society - and this is because there is very little integration needed - Polish culture is fundamentally compatible with English culture, as is Spanish, Italian, French, etc., culture. The majority of young people voted to remain. What the Leave camp have succeeded in doing, in essence, is destroy the future of the young. This is not doom and gloom, this is reality. It is absolute madness to abandon the EU, and, effectively, abandon Europe. The magnitude of what this is going to mean is now starting to sink in, and many are regretting their Leave vote. But of course you will still have those who are happy they "have their country back" and are free of Brussels and Berlin who dictated what Great Little Britain can and can't do. Hurray for you. The leave campaign was based on vicious lies, pure and simple. The UK is going to suffer tremendously, and London is going to bear the brunt of it. And England without London is nothing. It's worthless. So yes, the British now have the ship completely in their command, but it's essentially a ship which is going to sink. London is going to go from the world's most important financial centre to nothing more than a fading has-been. And this is going to bring with it very. very big problems for the rest of England and Wales. Scotland will very soon leave the UK and re-apply for EU membership (they have to re-apply - they won't remain members automatically). Northern Ireland will likely join the Republic of Ireland. So all you are going to have left is England and Wales - the most important city of which, London, voted in its majority to remain in the Union. London will be weakened in the long-term, and the full repercussions of this will be felt not now, but in the next five, ten and fifteen years. The NHS which featured so prominently in the campaign, will be weakened. It will not receive £350 million a week which "would have gone to the EU", as Farage lied. I work in a medical department of the most well-known British university. Do you have any idea how many doctors and nurses working for the NHS are Spanish, Polish, Italian? Do you have any idea the billions the UK will now stop receiving from the EU which went towards scientific research? Boris Johnson and that idiot Nigel Farage, both of whom didn't even expect to win and are completely unprepared for what to do next, have destroyed a great country. Britain didn't have to be made 'great again' - it was great already. And David Cameron gambled everything, including his career, on this referendum, the main reason behind him promising it in the first place was to win the 2015 election. He never thought the leavers would win either. But they did, and now he will leave and let the people who wanted a leave vote to manage the mess themselves. Suddendly Farage and his dumb smile and pints of beer is starting to look tremendously incompetent. Farage is a low-intelligence, racist and bigoted individual who made it the mission of his pathetic life to make Britain leave Europe. He's succeeded, and for now the idiots amongst us see him as a hero. But you mark my goddamn words, in ten years time he is going to be one of the most hated individuals in British history. He has destroyed the UK. Johnson is a serial philanderer and a lying cheat who epitomises all the lies and deceit brought forward by the Leave campaign. Look at what he has written for yesterday's Sunday Telegraph: link. He is telling the UK that they will still be able to enjoy freedom of movement: "British people will still be able to go and work in the EU; to live; to travel; to study; to buy homes and to settle down." This is an outright lie. Does this man really think he can get rid of all the EU laws he doesn't like, but keep the one he thinks are useful, like free movement of labour? He also says the UK will still get EU funding. Right, of course it will - I'm sure the Germans and the French will be more than willing to still send their funds while the UK is free to not abide by any of the other EU laws. He writes: "The only change – and it will not come in any great rush – is that the UK will extricate itself from the EU’s extraordinary and opaque system of legislation: the vast and growing corpus of law enacted by a European Court of Justice from which there can be no appeal." Can you believe this prick? The nerve of this lying bastard. Does he really believe that the EU is going to let the UK have the cake and eat it? What a fucking disaster. This is the future of the UK - Boris Johnson and Nigel Farage. God help it. |
| . 27.06.2016 06:45 |
link |
| . 27.06.2016 08:27 |
Article 50 may never be triggered. DC had no intention of pushing the button (he lied) ..... would any future PM push it, even if it were Boris? |
| Costa86 27.06.2016 09:41 |
^It's a very precarious state of affairs. Johnson, having realised that he now has a hell of a lot more on his plate than he can handle, is saying that there's "no rush" to trigger Article 50. Cameron, very intelligently, has said he'll back down in three months time, and that his successor can trigger Article 50 instead. It's obvious that Cameron doesn't want to be the man directly responsible for completly ruining Britain for this and for subsequent generations. Now, legally speaking, the EU can do nothing to force Britain to trigger Article 50. But the EP President has already started putting pressure on the UK to start the process of leaving. Politically, therefore, pressure is going to be put on whoever succeeds Cameron to start the process. In theory, however, the UK could persist with this state of affairs for years without ever triggering Article 50. But this will create even more uncertainty. As more and more of the truth about the repercussions of joining is emerging (and it is the fault of the Remain camp that so many things were not made sufficiently clear), the desire to go ahead and trigger Article 50 is going to start looking more and more like a burden for the new Tory leader to carry. We now know, for instance, that Wales has received £4 billion in EU funds since 2004 to help improve its poorer regions. Wales voted out, and will no longer receive funds. Cornwall has been largely dependant on EU funds and subsidies. Cornwall voted out. The vast majority of young people and those in their late 20s/early 30s voted in. Their futures have now been irrevocably changed for the worse. Studying in Europe's universities will now cost three times as much. EU funds to help new graduates start small enterprises will no longer be unavailable. Amongst those who voted Leave, it's those in the "dumb hick" category who are the worst. The American equivalent would be the red neck. People in their 50s or older, who can barely string a sentence in decent English, who are incapable of assimilating information and making a coherent argument, and who want an "England for the English". One person in a coffee shop full of Little Englanders said in a Sky News interview "We’re British. We just want us. We don’t want all the other people". The isolationist traits never really went away, and now they're back in full force. And England may very likely be left alone, as even Scotland and Northern Ireland don't want to be part of this now sinking ship. The Brexit vote has wiped $2 trillion off world markets. And yet the Leavers tell us that it's all negativity, all gloom and doom, and Britain can make it out of this - fear not, brave Englanders, don't believe the economists, the experts, those who know what they are saying. It's going to be all ok, Nigel Farage and Boris Johnson are here, and England will once again be great. But it doesn't matter what the Leavers think. Those with half a brain are now regretting their decision, and those who don't regret it are hopeless and will never emerge from their cesspit of ignorance. I don't blame them - their opinions are the products of the malicious and prolonged garbage which was fed to them by journalists throughout the years - journalists like a certain Boris Johnson. In face, he was the worst amongst them - the one who poisoned the chalice with his journalism. Every malady, every household financial woe, every job lost, every crime committed, every incidence of red tape, was the fault of the EU. Britain has been destroyed, and the Union flag holds no pride anymore. Brand Britain, constructed lovingly and carefully since after WWII, starting with the glory days of the Beatles and swinging London, on to the Sex Pistols, on to Queen and Freddie, with the flag held upon him as he strutted magestically on those stages, and on to the 1990s and early 2000s with Cool Brittania, has been damaged beyond repair. No young, intelligent person living in Britain can now truly say that they feel good about being British and about their future. There is nothing nice about the once wonderful Union flag anymore. Brand Britain, overnight, has started to symbolise bigotry, isolationism, narrow-mindedness, intolerance and stupidity The comments of the Little Englanders in the coffee shop were in stark contrast to those of a man in his early 20s working at a livestock market, also interviewed by Sky News, who remarked that it was more important for him to be in the EU than in the UK. And the views of that young man are similar to those of other young British people - they are Europeans and think the European way. They are so different from the older British generations, thinking they want their little island all for themselves, because only they know what is best for them. What a pity that when the old hicks are all dead, it's today's young people who would have really suffered the consequences of this disastrous decision. |
| . 27.06.2016 10:12 |
link |
| Oscar J 27.06.2016 10:25 |
This was a great read Costa86, thanks. |
| brENsKi 27.06.2016 13:34 |
@Costa86 reading your comments you're implying that ALL young voted stay and ALL old voted leave. that's not the case. both were approx 66-70%. secondly, the tone in your comments suggests leavers to be racists and bigots. thanks for that. i'm going to stick up (for once) for the country of my birth. 17+ million people are NOT racists and bigots - they're tired. tired of the EU stifling the living shit out of everything Britain tries to achieve tired of red tape and major UK contracts (due to EU tendering rules) being awarded to european companies, while companies here go to the wall. tired of our resources being drained ...our NHS dying under the weight of demand for finite services. make no mistake, this country will be strong and great again. yes it'll take time, but it will happen. and it'll be sweeter for having earned our place in a modern competitive world. we were tired of being lied to by the Remain campaign who spouted war, famine, plague and pestilence if we left. (Osbourne even threatened an emergency budget - which he rescinded this morning) and if the "young" were as bothered as you claim, why did 5 million of them NOT BOTHER to register to vote. and what about this rubbish petition for a second referendum? really? is that how "Remain" people seeing democracy work? "we don't get the right result, so we keep going til we do" yes there's some pain ahead, but we'll be stronger and better for it. the Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and France! are rumoured to be considering the same option...let's see what's left of the eurozone in ten years....Germany and Scotland that's what |
| Bad Seed 27.06.2016 17:10 |
^well said^ |
| YourValentine 28.06.2016 02:43 |
Brenski, can you give me an example for a major UK contract that was lost due to EU legislation and can you explain to me how the NHS has been detrimentally affected by the EU? Mainly the NHS topic is something I do not understand. When I look at the responses we get to the referendum inside and outside the UK there are some very surprising things: - politicians in the UK telling the public they can leave the EU and dismiss all EU legislation but still retain access to the single market - UK politicians telling the public they are not invoking article 50 but still want to "negotiate" with the EU - EU politicians not even considering that they neglected to encourage the UK to stay in the union and do not consinder resigning (Juncker) - Eu politicians who act like it is a personal insult to them that the UK voted "leave" like they are the roi soleil of the EU (Schulz) I really wish we could get rid of these two. |
| Costa86 28.06.2016 04:56 |
brENsKi wrote: @Costa86 reading your comments you're implying that ALL young voted stay and ALL old voted leave. that's not the case. both were approx 66-70%. secondly, the tone in your comments suggests leavers to be racists and bigots. thanks for that. i'm going to stick up (for once) for the country of my birth. 17+ million people are NOT racists and bigots - they're tired. tired of the EU stifling the living shit out of everything Britain tries to achieve tired of red tape and major UK contracts (due to EU tendering rules) being awarded to european companies, while companies here go to the wall. tired of our resources being drained ...our NHS dying under the weight of demand for finite services. make no mistake, this country will be strong and great again. yes it'll take time, but it will happen. and it'll be sweeter for having earned our place in a modern competitive world. we were tired of being lied to by the Remain campaign who spouted war, famine, plague and pestilence if we left. (Osbourne even threatened an emergency budget - which he rescinded this morning) and if the "young" were as bothered as you claim, why did 5 million of them NOT BOTHER to register to vote. and what about this rubbish petition for a second referendum? really? is that how "Remain" people seeing democracy work? "we don't get the right result, so we keep going til we do" yes there's some pain ahead, but we'll be stronger and better for it. the Netherlands, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and France! are rumoured to be considering the same option...let's see what's left of the eurozone in ten years....Germany and Scotland that's whatThe 17 million are not all racist and bigots - that's obvious. But a can of worms has been opened, and a nasty, uneducated, bigoted and xenophobic side to Britsh society has been brought to light. It was always there - every society has these elements - but the referendum has hugely placed a light on this side of society. Reports of racist crimes have risen 60% since Friday. Non-EU migrants - such as Pakistanis - have been told to "leave". These are people who have been here for decades. Yet, somehow, they don't fit into some Britons' idea of what it means to be British. Maybe because they have a funny accent. Maybe because "they've been taking (our) jobs". Maybe because you're fed-up of them taking your benefits - which they don't - that's another lie fed to you by journalists such as Boris Johnson, who were dead set for year and years on making the EU look like the cause of all ills. I would never put you in the category of uneducated or racist, Brenski. But the fact is that many of the Leavers voted "leave" because they want to see Britain rid of all those who do not fit their white protestant Anglo-Saxon view of what a Briton should be. I find it tragically funny that people like Boris Johnson are now saying that the UK will still be able to participate in the single-market. This man never believed the Leave side would win, and now that it did, he's clutching at straws for fear of drowning. Your complaints about the EU are relevant. The EU needs to change. But what you have done is cut off your nose to spite your face. You are getting rid of all the benefits too. And you (i.e. you the people, not you personally) might not know exactly what the benefits are, and what leaving will really mean. Indeed, since Google reported a 3x increase in "what is the EU?" searches following the referendum result, it seems that many Britons (Leavers or Remain) did not even know what they voted out or in to. The tragedy is that many chose to educate themselves AFTER the referendum, not before, and now they are regretting it. Regarding a second referendum, I don't agree with this either. The referendum was a horrendous idea in the first place. No - what should happen is that the referendum result is ignored. It will be suicidal if it is not. It was an advisory referendum, and the advice should not be taken. The "will of the people" does not matter in this situation. Democracy isn't about the will of the people. If it were so, democracy would be catastrophic and would lead to subjugation, loss of rights, etc. The future of the UK should not be decided by the ignorant masses - the uneducated, the angry, those with a chip on their shoulder. As Geoffrey Robertson QC writes here - link - MPs should pass a new bill in the Commons to repeal the European Communities Act of 1972, and the majority should block it by voting against it. It is in the interest of the country to remain members. My under-grad thesis was about euroscepticism in Scandinavia, and I touched a bit on Britain as well. I understand the arguments on why the EU needs to change. I can list 100s of things wrong with the EU. But I can list 1000s of good things. We have taken for granted the increase in prosperity (the problems in Spain, Greece, etc., are of their making, not the EU's fault), the major advances in research due to EU funding, the ease of travel for work and study, and, most importantly, the peace which it has brought amongst its member states. It is tragic - very, very tragic - that a wonderful and great country such as the UK has gone down the isolationist route once again and chosen, by a narrow majority, to leave this family of Europeans. A win for ignorance, and win for darkness. |
| brENsKi 28.06.2016 07:41 |
Costa86 wrote:I would never put you in the category of uneducated or racist, Brenski. But the fact is that many of the Leavers voted "leave" because they want to see Britain rid of all those who do not fit their white protestant Anglo-Saxon view of what a Briton should be.and what about all the "Remainer Campaigners" self-interests - the european investments/businesses etc they have finanacial interests in? how about the financiers who sold sterling, bought gold and then sold gold and bough back sterling in the same day - and made £8m in the process? these people are immorral...and the self same rich bastards who behind the remain campaign. They can tell us what to do, threaten us how they'll make it bad for us, then be instrumental in devaluing our currency and making a fortune out of others' misery. shameful pricks. Costa86 wrote:Regarding a second referendum, I don't agree with this either. The referendum was a horrendous idea in the first place. No - what should happen is that the referendum result is ignored. It will be suicidal if it is not. It was an advisory referendum, and the advice should not be taken.no it was not "an advisory referendum" - well not in the real world, maybe in you mind it was. but ONE party stood for govt on a manifesto that gave the people the say on whether we remain in europe. Cameron's words were "some things are too important for politicians to decide and MUST be decided by the people" Costa86 wrote:The "will of the people" does not matter in this situation. Democracy isn't about the will of the people. If it were so, democracy would be catastrophic and would lead to subjugation, loss of rights, etc. The future of the UK should not be decided by the ignorant masses - the uneducated, the angry, those with a chip on their shoulder.again, your idiocy shows no limit. there were uneducated angry masses in equal numbers on both sides. so your idea is null. secondly, the Remain Campaign tried to scare people into remaining - it backfired on them - and good thing too! Britain decides and not some westminster politicans with own personal agendas to be served. Costa86 wrote:My under-grad thesis was about euroscepticism in Scandinavia, and I touched a bit on Britain as well. I understand the arguments on why the EU needs to change. I can list 100s of things wrong with the EU. But I can list 1000s of good things. We have taken for granted the increase in prosperity (the problems in Spain, Greece, etc., are of their making, not the EU's fault), the major advances in research due to EU funding, the ease of travel for work and study, and, most importantly, the peace which it has brought amongst its member states. It is tragic - very, very tragic - that a wonderful and great country such as the UK has gone down the isolationist route once again and chosen, by a narrow majority, to leave this family of Europeans. A win for ignorance, and win for darkness.I really couldn't care what your under-grad was. the fact you deem to refer to it tells so much about your own opinion of your own self-importance and "i'm better than everyone else" crap dpes not wash. every vote is just as important. simple facts: 1] this country WILL be great again, working alongside and NOT constrained within Europe 2] the referedum has to be implemented in full. otherwise NO politician in this country will ever be believed again. 3] Holland, Denmark, Sweden, Austria and France are becomimg increasingly likely to follow - the euro project is dying a lingering painful death and why would any self-respecting person want to be part of ship already floundering on the rocks. 4] people do not like being threatened - they rise up, and have done so. well done Britain! 5] you cannot ignore a result, or decide it as "advisory" just because you don't like it. Govt asked, Govt got. we should ALL now respect it, live with it and move on. 6] people who talk like yourself do NOT really respect democracy - unless the decision being taken coincides with their own views. i am 100% certain that you would not be here asking us to ignore the outcome had the country chose to remain. shameful and hypocritical. |
| Bohardy 28.06.2016 16:26 |
Brenski, what is your problem? You're utterly incapable of having a debate without turning it into a personal attack. Costa made a very sensible, reasoned, post (as he usually does). Why so hostile? |
| Sebastian 28.06.2016 17:32 |
Costa86 wrote: Reports of racist crimes have risen 60% since Friday.True - 'reports' have risen. But have 'racist crimes' actually risen? Perhaps, perhaps not. Just to play devil's advocate, I'll copy and paste from my recent QOL post: A video of some young lad issuing racial slurs in a tram in Manchester (I think) has been doing the rounds and popping up a lot on my newsfeed. While it's sad and upsetting and all, I do wonder if it would even be shared had it happened a week ago ... and, for all I know, it could have jolly well happened a week ago (perhaps not that precise event, but plenty of them, everywhere, all the time). I do think it's getting loads of attention because of timing, and a week ago the media couldn't have cared less. That, I think, is the real 'enemy.' Not the EU, not the PM, not this or that political party (or its leaders), not immigrants, not a specific delusion with an imaginary friend and not even the ridiculously arrogant thought that one's birthplace (whichever it is) is automatically the 'best' there is. The real enemies are ignorance, misinformation and thinking what others command us to think. |
| Saint Jiub 28.06.2016 21:28 |
Bohardy wrote: Brenski, what is your problem? You're utterly incapable of having a debate without turning it into a personal attack. Costa made a very sensible, reasoned, post (as he usually does). Why so hostile? Why? Perhaps this: Costa86 wrote:The "will of the people" does not matter in this situation. Democracy isn't about the will of the people. If it were so, democracy would be catastrophic and would lead to subjugation, loss of rights, etc. The future of the UK should not be decided by the ignorant masses - the uneducated, the angry, those with a chip on their shoulder. |
| YourValentine 29.06.2016 04:11 |
Actually, Mike, this is exactly what the allies thought about the German people after the war and therefore we have no referendums :-) However, in the brexit referendum I think the mistake was on the side of the campaigning politicians. They did not give the people a true picture, a lot of lies were told, so many people voted for the wrong reasons. The most devastating issue was the immigration from Europe which we do not call "immigration" but freedom of movement in the rest of the EU. Freedom of movement means that all people in the EU are free to live and work inside the EU wherever they choose. It comes together with the single market which means that all goods and services can be freely exchanged with no borders and no tariffs or any other obstacles. Now the leave campaign told the voters that they can keep the freedom to move their goods and services but not the freedom of their citizens to move in the EU which will simply not happen. Of course they did not vote to forbid their own people to move - no, they voted for Polish and Romanian cheap labour to leave the country, that was the big mistake, If they want to keep the single market they must accept EU work force in their country, member or not member. Maybe it was wrong that Brussels watched all this happen and did not tell the people the truth. We actually do have reports of hostile acts against EU citizens in the UK after the brexit, the prime minister did address this issue in the House of Commons on Monday. There were flyers in English and Polish language distributed to Polish households telling them they are "vermin" and should leave the country. I really hesitate to make that connection but that is what the Nazis did to the Jews in the 1930s. Luckily, most British people do not support such behaviour but it was the hateful campaigning that made room for such people to think it is acceptable to do that to their neighbours. |
| Pingfah 29.06.2016 06:28 |
The government and Murdoch press have been blatantly lying to the British public about immigration and demonising the EU for years, which is probably why people didn't believe Cameron when he tried to eventually tell the truth. This Tory government have spent the last 5 years deliberately running the NHS into the ground, and then blaming it on immigration pressures, despite the fact that the NHS wouldn't be able to function at ALL if it weren't for immigrant workers, because hey, the government has also neglected the training of new staff, made becoming a Dcotor in the UK prohibitively expensive, and treated all the existing NHS staff like shit. Leave voters are going to be very disappointed, we will probably end up paying as much as we were before, accepting Free Movement and EU regulations, but having no control over EU policy. All these insane Leave voters have achieved is to tank the economy, reduce the values of all our properties and savings, and stoke up racial tensions. They are going to get nothing they hoped for, and remain stuck with everything they didn't. Frankly, the cunts deserve everything they are going to get, it's the rest of us that don't. |
| brENsKi 29.06.2016 10:00 |
Pingfah wrote: This Tory government have spent the last 5 years deliberately running the NHS into the ground, and then blaming it on immigration pressures, despite the fact that the NHS wouldn't be able to function at ALL if it weren't for immigrant workers, .therein lies a huge slice of the problem. people making sweeping statements like the above. The Government have done NO SUCH thing. stop and think about it - of 326 Tory MPs - only 70 are pro-Leave. Remain MPs all 250 in the Tory side of the house - including almost ALL of the cabinet would not blame immigration on anything - it defeats their own argument to Remain |
| Pingfah 29.06.2016 10:06 |
They weren't IN an argument to Remain until David Cameron needlessly made it a manifesto promise in order to guarantee a win for the Conservatives last year. This whole thing was just a play to keep them in power. If you haven't noticed what's been going on in the Press and from the government for the last 5 years, i'm not surprised this sailed effortlessly over your head either. They have been blaming problem after problem on Immigration, which is why people have such an utterly distorted idea of what Immigration means to our country now. Cameron gambled that he could backtrack the damage he had done with his endless lies, and lost. |
| brENsKi 29.06.2016 11:28 |
Pingfah wrote: They weren't IN an argument to Remain until David Cameron needlessly made it a manifesto promise in order to guarantee a win for the Conservatives last year. This whole thing was just a play to keep them in power. If you haven't noticed what's been going on in the Press and from the government for the last 5 years, i'm not surprised this sailed effortlessly over your head either.i find the "over your head" comment insulting. but if you want to play that game 1] there wasn't a government until ONE year ago. the previous 5 years was a very pro-europe coalition, before that we had an equally pro-europe labour government for 12 years. so your comment is wholly inaccurate 2] your comments are typical of those who, when given a say on something do not like democracy unless the will of the people happens to comply completely with their own. 3] the referendum was presented in the manifesto because the Tories could see (immigration, trade rules, law-making) national issues for everyone - including their own party who were divided 4] much as the left-wing press and labour party like to claim that the whole thing is about immigration - it isn't. it's also about law-making, stifling red tape and unfair business competition across the whole eurozone - just ask workers at Bombardier. 5] there will be other countries to follow the Uk to the door 6] 52-48% of 72% of the population voted. the 28% who didn't vote are by consequence happy with either outcome. you can't NOT VOTE or not register to VOTE and then complain when things go the other way. NO VOTE = majority agreement, by default. regardless of what YOU think - this vote to leave - IS the will of the people. If i behaved like you, i'd be demanding a re-run of 6 of the last NINE general elections whose results i didn't like. grow up, quit moaning, and let's move on. Our country will thrive and be better off free of europe if we work for it, alternatively it'll sink under the burden of hand-wringers, moaners and the dissatisfied who refuse to accept democracy and pull together to succeed. - but then that's EXACTLY what those merchants of doom would prefer - the chance to say "i told you so" as THEIR negativity helps steer the bus off a cliff |
| . 29.06.2016 12:56 |
Jeremy Corbyn holds crisis talks with shadow cabinet. ">link |
| brENsKi 29.06.2016 13:23 |
Don't look now Mr Corbyn, but you'd better clear your desk...she's clearing her throat link |
| Pingfah 30.06.2016 02:59 |
brENsKi wrote: i find the "over your head" comment insulting. but if you want to play that game 1] there wasn't a government until ONE year ago. the previous 5 years was a very pro-europe coalition, before that we had an equally pro-europe labour government for 12 years. so your comment is wholly inaccurate 2] your comments are typical of those who, when given a say on something do not like democracy unless the will of the people happens to comply completely with their own. 3] the referendum was presented in the manifesto because the Tories could see (immigration, trade rules, law-making) national issues for everyone - including their own party who were divided 4] much as the left-wing press and labour party like to claim that the whole thing is about immigration - it isn't. it's also about law-making, stifling red tape and unfair business competition across the whole eurozone - just ask workers at Bombardier. 5] there will be other countries to follow the Uk to the door 6] 52-48% of 72% of the population voted. the 28% who didn't vote are by consequence happy with either outcome. you can't NOT VOTE or not register to VOTE and then complain when things go the other way. NO VOTE = majority agreement, by default. regardless of what YOU think - this vote to leave - IS the will of the people. If i behaved like you, i'd be demanding a re-run of 6 of the last NINE general elections whose results i didn't like. grow up, quit moaning, and let's move on. Our country will thrive and be better off free of europe if we work for it, alternatively it'll sink under the burden of hand-wringers, moaners and the dissatisfied who refuse to accept democracy and pull together to succeed. - but then that's EXACTLY what those merchants of doom would prefer - the chance to say "i told you so" as THEIR negativity helps steer the bus off a cliffWhat the actual fuck are you talking about? I said absolutely nothing about ignoring or rerunning the referendum, overturning the result or anything of the sort! Unfortunately, delusional idiots like you have fucked the country, the economy is collapsing as we speak, and the government is going to have no choice but to cut us a highly inequitable deal with the EU to stem the tide, which will certainly leave us considerably worse off financially, and will fail to address any of the issues you have mentioned. And the hilarious thing is, you actually think this bullshit is a victory for you. It's not, you have shot yourself in the foot you moron. I have no choice but to put up with it. I have no problem with telling you to go fuck yourself for doing it though. |
| YourValentine 30.06.2016 03:55 |
I don't get what the Merkel picture has to do with all of it. Really - I would not object if people complain that she has no respect for Europe and tends to pick and choose with whom she talks behind closed doors but the Europeans should loudly criticise that behaviour and not be part of it. Definitely the EU MUST reform and become more transparent and closer to the people in order to survive. Definitely the EU MUST explain the good things about the union much better and not allow the national governments to strip themselves of all responsibilities and put all the blame on the EU. Brenski has mentioned 3 things that were at the core of the referendum: immigration, law making and overly bureaucratic trade rules. - in fact immigration from the EU must be accepted in order to get access to the single market. It will not happen that the EU grants access to the single market without that proviso, all leaders have emphasized that loud and clear. If they would not do that - many other countries would not see why they have to obey EU laws and not the UK. I think that was the biggest lie from the leave campaign and they are already taking that back - as to law making: EU laws are drafted by the commission (who was elected by the European parliament like any national government is elected by their parliament). Then the EU parliament AND the national parliaments have to ratify these laws with a majority. I cannot see why this is so un-democratic and with no legitimation when all members are representative democracies and accept such procedures in their countries - except of course the UK which is a monarchy and has a totally unelected head of state and second chamber with unelected noblemen and -women appointed by the "crown". I can understand that people are often unhappy with such laws (I know I am!!) and it is probably harder to accept a law from outside the country but it has nothing to do with sovereignty and democracy. There is absolutely much room for improvement: for example it was rightfully criticised that the parliament does not have the right to draw laws on their own but we must not forget that this was decided by OUR governments. We the people should protest more like we do now against CETA and TTIP. - bureaucracy: an absolute valid point but there will be even more bureaucracy when businesses have to file for certification for each product and each service in the future. Of course, the EU will not alienate the UK (at least I hope so) and try to find acceptable procedures but the fact remains that the UK and EU businesses will need more paperwork and not less. |
| brENsKi 30.06.2016 07:43 |
Pingfah wrote: What the actual fuck are you talking about? I said absolutely nothing about ignoring or rerunning the referendum, overturning the result or anything of the sort! Unfortunately, delusional idiots like you have fucked the country, the economy is collapsing as we speak, And the hilarious thing is, you actually think this bullshit is a victory for you. It's not, you have shot yourself in the foot you moron. I have no choice but to put up with it. I have no problem with telling you to go fuck yourself for doing it though.firstly, i didn't say i was quoting you anywhere. i replied to your "over your head" comment, and then replied to ALL of the issues raised in this thread. you've now insulted me three times. "insane" "delusional idiot" "moron" i've not insulted you at all - if this is the voice of the Remain campaign then i'm glad i didn't vote the same way as you. it'd be nice if you could discuss civilly without resorting to playground insults. you can tell how the mods feel about the referendum - your insulting comments remain unchallenged and unedited. that is shameful. if i'd insulted you like that - i'd have been threatened with banning, and my comments would've been removed by now. |
| *goodco* 30.06.2016 19:46 |
That Gerry goof hung around for ....how long? I thought name calling was SOP half the time around here. For this topic, certain flames are actually quite timid IMHO. |
| tero! 48531 30.06.2016 23:31 |
brENsKi wrote:I've only glanced at your recent posts. but it seems like you two are talking about two different things: One is talking about the circumstances which led to the referendum, and the other one is talking about the referendum itself.Pingfah wrote: What the actual fuck are you talking about? I said absolutely nothing about ignoring or rerunning the referendum, overturning the result or anything of the sort! Unfortunately, delusional idiots like you have fucked the country, the economy is collapsing as we speak, And the hilarious thing is, you actually think this bullshit is a victory for you. It's not, you have shot yourself in the foot you moron. I have no choice but to put up with it. I have no problem with telling you to go fuck yourself for doing it though.firstly, i didn't say i was quoting you anywhere. i replied to your "over your head" comment, and then replied to ALL of the issues raised in this thread. you've now insulted me three times. "insane" "delusional idiot" "moron" i've not insulted you at all - if this is the voice of the Remain campaign then i'm glad i didn't vote the same way as you. it'd be nice if you could discuss civilly without resorting to playground insults. you can tell how the mods feel about the referendum - your insulting comments remain unchallenged and unedited. that is shameful. if i'd insulted you like that - i'd have been threatened with banning, and my comments would've been removed by now. That's something that you have ignored (or it has "gone over your head") in your excitement to continue the argument. At that stage, the only reasonable thing is to walk away from the conversation to calm yourself down. |
| Pingfah 01.07.2016 05:45 |
brENsKi wrote: firstly, i didn't say i was quoting you anywhere. i replied to your "over your head" comment, and then replied to ALL of the issues raised in this thread. you've now insulted me three times. "insane" "delusional idiot" "moron" i've not insulted you at all - if this is the voice of the Remain campaign then i'm glad i didn't vote the same way as you. it'd be nice if you could discuss civilly without resorting to playground insults. you can tell how the mods feel about the referendum - your insulting comments remain unchallenged and unedited. that is shameful. if i'd insulted you like that - i'd have been threatened with banning, and my comments would've been removed by now.Awwww. Diddums. |
| brENsKi 01.07.2016 07:11 |
Pingfah wrote: Awwww. Diddums.completely juvenile response. still some people respond to "not getting their own way" with childish insults - last refuge of those unable to discuss in an adult way. doesn't detract from the facts tho' does it? the country voted leave. Now you have to live with it. it'll probably really stick in your side when you see the country getting better and stronger and you being 100% wrong. |
| YourValentine 01.07.2016 08:39 |
brENsKi wrote: you can tell how the mods feel about the referendum - your insulting comments remain unchallenged and unedited. that is shameful. if i'd insulted you like that - i'd have been threatened with banning, and my comments would've been removed by now.This is ridiculous - you must be joking |
| brENsKi 01.07.2016 11:43 |
YourValentine wrote:perhaps i'm not.brENsKi wrote: you can tell how the mods feel about the referendum - your insulting comments remain unchallenged and unedited. that is shameful. if i'd insulted you like that - i'd have been threatened with banning, and my comments would've been removed by now.This is ridiculous - you must be joking i'll test my theory then... now how far am i allowed to insult pingfah before you intervene? guess you'll do something once it dawns on you failing that, someone else will point it out to you and then you'll take action and have me banned it's a shame as this site used to be ok once upon a time until stupidity and petty insults took over and finally it became a dumping ground for crap and bullshit from Gerry and his ilk until we reached the point where none of the decent, regular contributors bothered any more that's exactly where we are now - knee deep in shit |
| Saint Jiub 01.07.2016 22:26 |
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| YourValentine 04.07.2016 03:55 |
I wonder if I am the only one who is depressed about this conversation. The "brexit " is a historical decision and look how we are talking about it. Name calling, insults, the complete unwillingness to look at the points made by the other side. In the end the claim that a ban is immininent although we all know that this has never happened on this forum. We really have no reason to criticise our politicians if we are no better than all the clowns that represent us. |
| brENsKi 04.07.2016 08:50 |
YourValentine wrote: In the end the claim that a ban is immininent although we all know that this has never happened on this forum.really? - so we ALL imagined Gerry did we? wasn't his account deleted/banned? thought so. |
| Saint Jiub 04.07.2016 11:32 |
Apples and Oranges ... Gerry went off the deep end ... insulting everyone, typing in ALL CAPS, judicious use of the C word, and numerous spammy incoherent posts. You are no Gerry ... and will likely not get banned unless you try much harder with an increased spamming rate of posting "improved" diatribe outside the "personal" section. |
| brENsKi 04.07.2016 15:51 |
Panchgani wrote: Apples and Oranges ... Gerry went off the deep end ... insulting everyone, typing in ALL CAPS, judicious use of the C word, and numerous spammy incoherent posts.is the key word "incoherent" because other than that, Pingfah's posts were no different to the Gezzmieister. which is why (initially and vertically) i insulted him back - tho' no one noticed - waste of fekkin time |
| Day dop 30.07.2016 17:35 |
No pain, no gain. In the long term, I have little doubt that Britain will be fine. I'm not so sure about the E.U though. I think leaving was the right choice. |
| Holly2003 02.08.2016 07:24 |
It's a big shit sandwich and we're all gonna have to take a bite. |
