| Costa86 02.06.2016 05:14 |
This subject has been touched upon numerous times, but I was wondering if there is anything to substantiate the rumours that John and Freddie were especially close. We all know that it's said that John took Freddie's passing very badly, but I'm not sure if there is actually any "evidence" (to the extent that such a thing can have evidence) of this, apart from hearsay. Would you agree that Freddie sort of protected/shielded John while he was alive? I get the impression that Freddie loved John dearly, and might have sometimes guarded him from the rest of the band. But again, there's no evidence that I know of to substantiate this. It's more a general opinion that the quietest of the group and the biggest ego of the group had a special bond. |
| Sebastian 02.06.2016 06:13 |
I think Brian had the biggest ego in the group, by far. Anyway ... I don't think there's anything to support the idea of Fred & John having any special bond as opposed to any other pair (Fred-Rog, Bri-Rog, Fred-Bri, Rog-John, Bri-John). Granted, Fred collaborated with John on some songs, but that doesn't mean they were closer than the others ... Brian and Roger also collaborated (Machines, One Vision...), as did Freddie and Brian, Freddie and Roger... there are no documented partnerships between John and Brian (other than The Hitman, sort of) and John and Roger (other than the Show Must Go On sequence), but that doesn't necessarily mean they weren't close; they just were into different types of music. Also, before anyone brings it up: Hot Space was NOT a Fred/John thing. Both Brian and Roger were more involved on that album than John was, and both John and Roger hated it. |
| Cruella de Vil 02.06.2016 07:06 |
I think that it simply was the fact that Freddie gave John's songs a voice. As I recall, I think that it was Freddie who encouraged John to craete songs. Freddie's vocal arrangements really are to the forefront on Best Friend and You and I. From News of the Worls onwards, John went for a leaner mix in this respect. |
| dudeofqueen 02.06.2016 07:41 |
My take is that because Freddie and John were not part of Smile, and therefore essentially outsiders joining the party after it had started, they were connected to each other which gave them BOTH a voice in the early stages and that lasted through the band's career. John and Freddie had diametrically opposing personalities and perhaps the old "opposites attract" cliché rings true in their friendship. It'd be interesting to hear from Ratty or Peter Freestone on this actually, but I'm with Sebastian in that they didn't appear to be any closer to each other than they were to Brian or Roger and vice versa. |
| Sebastian 02.06.2016 08:45 |
CruellaDeVille wrote: As I recall, I think that it was Freddie who encouraged John to craete songs.There's a comment by Mick Rock suggesting that, but that doesn't mean Brian and Roger didn't encourage him, and it doesn't mean either that Fred wasn't supportive of Brian's and Roger's songwriting. CruellaDeVille wrote: Freddie's vocal arrangements really are to the forefront on Best Friend and You and I.I don't think there's any sound evidence that those arrangements are Freddie's. They could be, but they could also be Roger's, or Brian's, or a collab, or John could've arranged those parts himself (even though he didn't sing on either song). dudeofqueen wrote: It'd be interesting to hear from Ratty or Peter Freestone on this actually, but I'm with Sebastian in that they didn't appear to be any closer to each other than they were to Brian or Roger and vice versa.Freestone has said quite a few times that all their friendships were different. He's understandably been hesitant to rate one bond as 'tighter' than another, which makes sense. Peter Jones (Freddie's driver) confirmed Roger was the only one who socialised with Fred. He'd only meet up with John and Brian for work (recording, rehearsing, songwriting, band meetings, touring). |
| malicedoom 02.06.2016 09:13 |
The combination of John's writing and Freddie's voice, to me, provided (easily) some of Queen's greatest work. Just off the top of my head: You're My Best Friend Spread Your Wings In Only Seven Days I Want To Break Free Fucking great. |
| brENsKi 02.06.2016 16:26 |
Costa86 wrote: It's more a general opinion that the quietest of the group and the biggest ego of the group had a special bond.i would think it's more likely that Freddie - and his experiences at school - may have helped him identify with the underdog/quieter one and this empathy helped to form a bond |
| Costa86 02.06.2016 16:40 |
brENsKi wrote:Really good perspective. I think Freddie was basically a relative introvert deep down, with a huge amount of talent and incredible capabilities, which showcasing whilst on stage helped satisfy his need for a type of affection which some introverts crave.Costa86 wrote: It's more a general opinion that the quietest of the group and the biggest ego of the group had a special bond.i would think it's more likely that Freddie - and his experiences at school - may have helped him identify with the underdog/quieter one and this empathy helped to form a bond |
| musicland munich 02.06.2016 18:20 |
Deacon( year unknown to me): We all have our own friends. I would never think of going round to Fred's house and he would come to mine. We are just poles apart in that sense. |
| Shumway 02.06.2016 19:40 |
I'm quite certain that in Jim Hutton's book, he said that John and Freddie drifted apart towards the end of Freddie's life. |
| Togg 03.06.2016 03:01 |
Sebastian wrote: I think Brian had the biggest ego in the group, by far. Anyway ... I don't think there's anything to support the idea of Fred & John having any special bond as opposed to any other pair (Fred-Rog, Bri-Rog, Fred-Bri, Rog-John, Bri-John). Granted, Fred collaborated with John on some songs, but that doesn't mean they were closer than the others ... Brian and Roger also collaborated (Machines, One Vision...), as did Freddie and Brian, Freddie and Roger... there are no documented partnerships between John and Brian (other than The Hitman, sort of) and John and Roger (other than the Show Must Go On sequence), but that doesn't necessarily mean they weren't close; they just were into different types of music. Also, before anyone brings it up: Hot Space was NOT a Fred/John thing. Both Brian and Roger were more involved on that album than John was, and both John and Roger hated it. Just curious, I've seen you say John hated HS before, but never heard it anywhere else, where is that from? Did any of them like it? |
| Chief Mouse 03.06.2016 04:03 |
Freddie said he wanted to do it but others hated him for it because it didn't sell. Also in New Haven 1982 interview Freddie said that he thinks the songs are good but timing is bad (I think). |
| Togg 03.06.2016 04:31 |
I sort of remember that, but never seen any comments from John, not that I doubt it, but I'm interested to know when he commented |
| Sebastian 03.06.2016 07:02 |
link: John's asked about the best and worst moments of the band's career. He says the best were Live Aid and the South American tour of 1982 (sic), and the worst was Hot Space. link: It's in Japanese, but anyway ... they're asked about the (then) new album, and John replies 'I don't like it.' He then more diplomatically states it was the result of a compromise between four people and that one of the strengths of the band is that there are four songwriters. I also seem to remember (back when I actually took the time to read all those interviews in Japanese) he once commented he hated both 'Jazz' and 'Hot Space'. There's an excerpt from a video interview to Fred on the 'Great Pretender' doco, where Fred clearly states he 'forced the other three to do it' (referring to the album). While the success of 'Another One Bites the Dust' (a song John wrote) was definitely the key factor in 'Hot Space' having existed to begin with, that doesn't mean John was a major force in it - he only wrote one and a half songs there, and on one of those he compromised his original plan and agreed to let Brian play a solo (thus, the result was not what he wanted). Roger, Fred and Brian, on the other hand, had a lot more power in their own songs, and the three of them were far more involved in the album's production, songwriting, recording and mixing. |
| Togg 03.06.2016 07:53 |
Interesting, of course it could well be the heavy parts of the album he hates, maybe the fact that it was a compromise and Brian and Roger forced a more 'traditional' Queen style for side 2?? Very interesting though never heard John speak openly about the bands Albums, I wonder what he didnt like about Jazz? Funny as primarily a drummer I've always loved the sound of the kit on You're My Best Friend, but was shocked to discover that it was John that had spent all night mixing that trying to obtain that sound and that Roger wasn't that happy with it... I've strived for years trying to re-create that sound on the Toms |
| Sebastian 03.06.2016 10:34 |
Togg wrote: Interesting, of course it could well be the heavy parts of the album he hates, maybe the fact that it was a compromise and Brian and Roger forced a more 'traditional' Queen style for side 2??I think that point's been misunderstood a lot. There's absolutely nothing to suggest John hated the traditional Queen style. HS was not a two-camp battle between Maylor and Jeddie, it was the result of what the four of them were writing, but Fred more so than the others and John less so than the others. Let's see track by track: * Staying Power: All John does there is play some staccato chords on rhythm guitar, which are quite subdued and only last a few seconds when you combine them. Most of the song is John-less and the bass isn't played by him. * Dancer & Body Language: He's not even there. * Back Chat: It wound up being different to the way he'd envisioned it. * Action: He's probably not even there (some of the bass is synth-generated, and the rest sounds like Roger played it himself). * Put Out the Fire & Las Palabras de Amor: Very subdued role, especially when compared to other songs by Brian of the same era (e.g. Dragon Attack and Sail Away Sweet Sister). * Calling All Girls: Very subdued role, especially when compared to other songs by Roger of the same era (e.g. Coming Soon and Radio Ga Ga). * Cool Cat: The only song where he possibly got his way. One out of eleven, mind! * Under Pressure: A track he seemed to be quite fond of. But that'd still mean 9 songs out of 11 either didn't feature him or featured him very little or were not the way he would've wanted them to be, resulting in 81.82% of the album being NOT to his liking. Let's contrast it with 'The Game': * Play the Game: Excellent role, if underrated. * Dragon Attack: Co-leading role, with a solo and all! * Another One Bites the Dust: Leading role. * Need Your Loving Tonight: Magnificent bass line and great acoustic guitar playing. Definitely a key role. * Crazy Little Thing Called Love: Excellent role, quite important for the final product, and not too subdued. * Rock It: Average role, neither too prominent nor too subdued. * Don't Try Suicide: Important role, since sometimes his is the only instrument. * Sail Away Sweet Sister: Key role, with even some sort of a solo in the end. * Coming Soon: Interesting if underrated role, some nice ornaments here and there. * Save Me: Excellent bass-line, beautiful and interesting. |
| MercurialFreddie 03.06.2016 13:07 |
Jeddie! Haha! Nice one.... Star Queen: The Return of the Jeddie :) |
| Costa86 03.06.2016 13:19 |
Sebastian wrote:Very interesting comparison which really brings out John's relatively very minor role in HS.Togg wrote: Interesting, of course it could well be the heavy parts of the album he hates, maybe the fact that it was a compromise and Brian and Roger forced a more 'traditional' Queen style for side 2??I think that point's been misunderstood a lot. There's absolutely nothing to suggest John hated the traditional Queen style. HS was not a two-camp battle between Maylor and Jeddie, it was the result of what the four of them were writing, but Fred more so than the others and John less so than the others. Let's see track by track: * Staying Power: All John does there is play some staccato chords on rhythm guitar, which are quite subdued and only last a few seconds when you combine them. Most of the song is John-less and the bass isn't played by him. * Dancer & Body Language: He's not even there. * Back Chat: It wound up being different to the way he'd envisioned it. * Action: He's probably not even there (some of the bass is synth-generated, and the rest sounds like Roger played it himself). * Put Out the Fire & Las Palabras de Amor: Very subdued role, especially when compared to other songs by Brian of the same era (e.g. Dragon Attack and Sail Away Sweet Sister). * Calling All Girls: Very subdued role, especially when compared to other songs by Roger of the same era (e.g. Coming Soon and Radio Ga Ga). * Cool Cat: The only song where he possibly got his way. One out of eleven, mind! * Under Pressure: A track he seemed to be quite fond of. But that'd still mean 9 songs out of 11 either didn't feature him or featured him very little or were not the way he would've wanted them to be, resulting in 81.82% of the album being NOT to his liking. Let's contrast it with 'The Game': * Play the Game: Excellent role, if underrated. * Dragon Attack: Co-leading role, with a solo and all! * Another One Bites the Dust: Leading role. * Need Your Loving Tonight: Magnificent bass line and great acoustic guitar playing. Definitely a key role. * Crazy Little Thing Called Love: Excellent role, quite important for the final product, and not too subdued. * Rock It: Average role, neither too prominent nor too subdued. * Don't Try Suicide: Important role, since sometimes his is the only instrument. * Sail Away Sweet Sister: Key role, with even some sort of a solo in the end. * Coming Soon: Interesting if underrated role, some nice ornaments here and there. * Save Me: Excellent bass-line, beautiful and interesting. |
| dudeofqueen 05.06.2016 03:23 |
Costa86, re: >Very interesting comparison which really brings out John's relatively very minor role in HS. Which is all very weird given how incredibly he played the Hot Space tracks on stage. I've always been mystified as to why Brian or Roger would want anyone other than John to play bass on any Queen tracks; less so Brian given his control freak issues, but, CHRIST, it was the guy's job........... Maybe its simply the fact that John didn't want to take too great a role in the train wreck that he saw coming and he just let the others get on with it. |
| fras444 06.06.2016 04:54 |
^ same goes to reason's where Roger decided to play bass on the songs he wrote on Jazz and News of the World... be real interesting as to why he decided on that when John had been solid on Rogers songs for the previous albums... |
| Sebastian 06.06.2016 07:34 |
There could be many reasons for that... perhaps Rog underestimated how important it was to be actually skilful as opposed to simply playing the right notes keeping the beat (that's perhaps 2% of what performing is about), perhaps he'd demo'd it that way and decided to keep it, perhaps ... perhaps ... perhaps... we'll probably never know, but well, there you have it. |
| Martin Packer 06.06.2016 11:09 |
I've always thought many of Roger's earlier songs were as close to solo affairs as he could get. Later on that became less true. |
| Toozeup 10.06.2016 09:40 |
It's well documented Freddie was like an uncle to John's kids. In the Late 80's he & his family would often join Freddie & co on holiday. |
| Costa86 10.06.2016 10:25 |
^Really? Never read this before - the holiday bit |
| Toozeup 15.06.2016 03:22 |
It's mentioned in the Rhys Thomas Freddie documentary from a few years ago. |
| Sebastian 15.06.2016 08:03 |
Toozeup wrote: It's mentioned in the Rhys Thomas Freddie documentary from a few years ago.Where exactly? I can't remember anything being said about it on that doco. Roger was the one who joined John for holidays, not Fred. |
| Killer_queenIII 15.06.2016 09:24 |
I think I remember hearing it was Mack's kids that Freddie was like an uncle to, not John's |
| Sebastian 15.06.2016 13:56 |
Yeah, that makes sense. Some people just wish John and Fred were BFF's and had given each other friendship rings and bracelets and had been involved in some sort of sacred secret oath ... but all evidence points at a far less romantic reality: they were colleagues who admired and respected each other's skills (just like any other combination: Brian/Fred, Brian/John, Brian/Rog, Fred/Rog, John/Rog) but they rarely, if ever, socialised outside of work (just like most of the other combinations). |
| The Real Wizard 15.06.2016 23:32 |
Sebastian wrote: I think Brian had the biggest ego in the group, by far.I dunno - I never heard about Brian smashing mirrors over people's heads and telling them to pick them up the pieces. I'm sure they all had their moments in one way or another. |
| The Real Wizard 15.06.2016 23:51 |
dudeofqueen wrote: Costa86, re: >Very interesting comparison which really brings out John's relatively very minor role in HS. Which is all very weird given how incredibly he played the Hot Space tracks on stage. I've always been mystified as to why Brian or Roger would want anyone other than John to play bass on any Queen tracks; less so Brian given his control freak issues, but, CHRIST, it was the guy's job........... Maybe its simply the fact that John didn't want to take too great a role in the train wreck that he saw coming and he just let the others get on with it.We also have to figure in that it was the 80s, and synth bass and drums were becoming a thing, to the chagrin of bassists and drummers everywhere. It was a fad, so A&R guys were putting their noses in there trying to maximize revenue of product. It wasn't 1974 anymore. |
| Sebastian 16.06.2016 02:40 |
The Real Wizard wrote:I did hear about Brian admitting he was the most pig-headed member of the group, and I completely agree with him.Sebastian wrote: I think Brian had the biggest ego in the group, by far.I dunno - I never heard about Brian smashing mirrors over people's heads and telling them to pick them up the pieces. I'm sure they all had their moments in one way or another. |
| The Real Wizard 16.06.2016 12:42 |
He's always been the self-deprecatingly modest type. I'd take that with a pinch of salt. |
| Sebastian 16.06.2016 12:57 |
So, when someone says anything even slightly critical about your idol, that person's automatically disqualified on the grounds that they don't know him personally or they haven't sold nearly as many records as he has, etc. When your idol himself admits to his shortcomings... we shouldn't believe him, it's just him being modest. At the end of the day, if you want to believe Brian's perfect, not even he will be able to change your mind. Case in point. |
| dudeofqueen 18.06.2016 03:13 |
Sebastian, re: >I did hear about Brian admitting he was the most pig-headed member of the group, and I completely agree with him Again a classic example of Brian's ego pushing himself forward in the absence of Freddie; would Brian have DARED to make some of the proclamations he's made since Freddie died if he was still with us? I find it VERY hard to believe that Freddie would have allowed himself to be put in his place or over-ruled creatively about ANYTHING by Brian. |
| dudeofqueen 18.06.2016 03:15 |
The Real Wizard, re: >He's always been the self-deprecatingly modest type. When it suits....... When he can gain. |
| Sebastian 18.06.2016 07:16 |
dudeofqueen wrote: Again a classic example of Brian's ego pushing himself forward in the absence of Freddie; would Brian have DARED to make some of the proclamations he's made since Freddie died if he was still with us?I think he's actually made that 'I'm the most pigheaded member of the band' comment at least twice, and at least one of those was during Freddie's lifetime. dudeofqueen wrote: I find it VERY hard to believe that Freddie would have allowed himself to be put in his place or over-ruled creatively about ANYTHING by Brian.Fred admitted so himself - both John and Roger were alright with Freddie chipping in on their songs, but when it came to Brian's pieces, he was usually left on his own. Of course, that doesn't necessarily mean Brian had a massive ego (well, he did, but correlation does not imply causation), it may just reflect his songs were penned in more complete form. |
| dudeofqueen 18.06.2016 07:33 |
Sebastian, re: >it may just reflect his songs were penned in more complete form. Or that Brian was just.......Brian. |
| miraclesteinway 18.06.2016 16:22 |
John, the disciple whom Freddie loved.... |
| Costa86 19.06.2016 15:20 |
^LOL, so elegantly put. Excellent as usual miracle. |