QueenZone discussion #1435527
Harmony/composing skills
| ZBGM0 30.07.2015 11:59 |
Hi all, It is quite a while since I visited this forum the last time. After a while, I admit I lost a little bit of motivation for reading the forum because most things that are interesting and important to us fans were already mentioned and discussed 100-times, consequently many trolling AIDS activities took place. Now, I would like to start a new topic that wasn't discussed yet (I hope), at least not to my memory and search. And sorry for my English (not my native language) Topic is: WHICH QUEEN SONG HAS THE BEST HARMONY (instrumental music without vocals, guitar solos or other melodies)? What I mean by that? - number of chords - how complex chord progression is - fancy uncommon, for rock/pop music unusual chords, "borrowed" chords from other keys etc. - modulations/transitions from one key to another that create dramatic changes. - nice dramatic dissonance - harmonic relation between verse and chorus, especially if there is modulation. You may ask why I even put this topic under "serious discussion". Well, it is important to realize that Freddie was very good (and different) at harmony compared to other rock/pop musicians. Most pop/rock songs (something like 80 - 90 %) only have 4 chords. I am not aware of ANY piano based song (or any of his songs AT ALL) written by Freddie with only 4 chords. I don't think it exists. If there is one, I simply never noticed/discovered it. The most simple harmony that I found is in a very short song called Nevermore and even this song has 7 chords - lowest number of chords for piano based songs that I found. Even "Crazy Little Thing Called Love" which was composed on guitar (definitely NOT Freddie's instrument) has 7 chords. He often joked that his guitar can only play few chords, but even this song has more chords than average pop/rock song. What Freddie said about Crazy Little Thing Called Love: "Crazy Little Thing Called Love' took me five or ten minutes. I did that on the guitar, which I can't play for nuts, and in one way it was quite a good thing because I was restricted, knowing only a few chords. It's a good discipline because I simply had to write within a small framework. I couldn't work through too many chords and because of that restriction I wrote a good song, I think." I am pretty sure 90 % of his piano based songs have at least 9-10 chords or more. His songs can have much more complex harmony, over 20 chords, with the record of Bohemian Rhapsody's piano track that contains 49 chords. Now before you say:" 49, are you mad...how is that possible ....nonsense", let me explain how I count the chords: I consider C, C/G, C/E, CM7, CM7/E, CM7/G and C7, C7/E, C7/G as 9 different chords. Even though they all have the same basic harmony (C,E,G) they all sound very different. If you compare C to C/G they will sound completely different because you have different bass, and the bass is the foundation of harmony. Of course when I say C/G I am strictly thinking of G as a very profound and distinct bass (left hand on piano /John would play G on the bass guitar) and NOT the third inversion of the triad (in the treble) which sounds basically the same and therefore it can not be considered as something important or different chord. Yes, of course they all have the same base, you can only play just C chord instead the other 8 chords and it will be somehow OK and you might get somehow away with it (for not demanding listener) but this will not be the same as original anymore, it will be less accurate, very different, cheap, boring, simplified and what is most important the instrumental version of the song (without vocals) will lose its dramatic harmonic meaning that creates the emotions and feelings of the song, which are making the song unique. Of course number of chords is by far NOT the most important criteria, it is just one of many aspect related to nice harmony/composition. However, I would never consider 4 chords song (instrumental) as a harmonic masterpiece. Back to main topic. Which is your favorite Queen song from harmonic point of view? Well, for Boh Rhap it is so obvious that it is a masterpiece as far as harmony is concerned. You probably won't find ANY other rock/pop song with 49 chords. Because it is so obvious, I personally don't see any point to discuss about Boh Rhap harmony, that's why I would like to concentrate rather on other songs. My vote goes to A Winter's Tale and We Are The Champions. We Are The Champions: - nice chord progression - many fancy dissonant chords - 26 chords, yes WATC might be one of the most catchiest songs but "catchy" has nothing to do with chords, catchy is all about the melody - chorus has completely different chord progression/chords then the verse (modulation) - the song has very powerful awesome dramatic modulation with a very good dramatic pre-chorus (transition between verse and chorus). This transition just before the chorus (F) creates so much powerful emotions and is to my opinion THE MAIN reason that the song sounds so "victorious". It is just fantastic. This is a typical case where the harmony is the most important factor that makes the song so great. Can you imagine this song being without dramatic pre-chorus (transition between verse and chorus) or if the chorus of this song would be still in the same key (Cm)?. This song would be completely dead without transition/modulation. Chords used in We Are The Champions: 1) Cm 2) Gm7/C 3) Eb 4) Ab/Eb 5) Bb/D 6) F7 7) Bb 8) Ab/Bb 9) G°7 10) Bb7 11) C7 12) F 13) Am 14) Dm 15) F#° 16) F#°7 17) Gm7 18) C7/G 19) G half dim 7/Bb = Bbm6 20) G half dim 7/E 21) Ebadd9/G 22) Fm7/Ab 23) Bb9 24) Cm11 25) Fm 26) Gm7/F A winter's Tale: - very nice melancholic chord progression - many fancy dissonant melancholic chords that create psychedelic dreamy effect - 28 chords - written in F# major (rare key for rock/pop songs) - chorus has completely different chords then verse (at this particularly part WITHOUT modulation), for instance: beginning of the chorus starts with E which is not even in the key of F# major, but the key of the chorus still remains "from music theory point of view" in F# major (no modulation). This unusual beginning of the chorus creates dreamy, mellow-melancholic effect that makes the song so beautiful, psychedelic and emotional - harmony gives you the feeling how beautiful the landscape is. This is another case where the harmony is probably the most important factor for achieving the goal of the song. I don't think you can achieve such a nice dreamy effect with 4 chords and without fancy dissonant chords. - First part of the song (F# major) ends with unexpected awesome dissonant chords and then we have beautiful modulation to Ab major. You can feel even bigger composer's dreamy excitement about the beauty of nature when the key goes one whole step higher. Chords used in A Winter's Tale: 1) F# 2) F#/A# 3) D#m 4) F#/C# 5) G#m 6) G#madd9 7) G#m/G 8) B/F# 9) F#m 10) A 11) C#11 12) B 13) E 14) C#m7 15) B/D# 16) F#°7 17) D#7 18) E°7 19) D#9 20) Ab 21) Ab/C 22) Fm 23) Ab/Eb 24) Bbm 25) Bbmadd9 26) Bbm/A 27) Db/An 28) D/Gb |
| ZBGM0 30.07.2015 12:30 |
Why I even write this? because it seems to me that more complex harmony can give so much extra emotions to the song (and makes the song much better of course) IF the composer knows how to use it correct (depends on the lyrics of the song). I believe most people don't realize that advanced harmony had such a powerful role that made Freddie's songs so good. For instance: most Queen fans get shivers down the spine (they are excited) when Freddie in Boh Rhap at 1:23 starts to sing "Mamaaaaa ooooooh", what they don't realize is that it is not excited so much because of the lyrics or vocal but because Freddie created well planed modulation from Bb to Eb. He made very good transition when he sings "But now I've gone and thrown it all away" and then BOOOM explosion in Eb, that's why this "Mamaaaaa" sounds so dramatic. Boh Rhap is what it is mostly because of the more complex harmony, not just lyrics and good vocals. What I am trying to say is that we mostly talk about lyrics and vocals but never realize how important role had more complex harmony in those songs. Something that we don't appreciate enough. This songs would never be what they are if there would be used simple pop harmony that is used in 90 % cases. And I think this was one of the Freddie's additional talents that most fans don't realize. Modern (or older) rock/pop musician will use only 4 chords for most of the time because it is SO EASY and it will sound somehow OK. You literally need no more than 10 seconds to make 4-chords harmony for modern songs. But if you include much more chords like Freddie did then it is much more challenging to create nice harmony. Of course it is not difficult to include 20-30 chords in a song but such song will sound most of the time unstable and weird, the challenge is how to "balance" all this chords to each other so that the song will get the right "flow" and emotions that enhance the main purpose of the song. Don't get me wrong, there are many good 4 or 3 chord songs, but this is ONLY BECAUSE they have good lyrics or vocals (or some other melodies like guitar solos etc.). But if you remove all the vocals and guitar solos, all this songs will sound pretty boring, repeated and with no dramatic effect. P.S.: I am well aware that most people will not respond to this topic as I assume that many of you don't care about this things, on top of this, topic requires some music theory knowledge - I myself have only basic music theory knowledge, I am not musician, I never went to music school or had a teacher. However, I know that some of you are quite advanced and pretty familiar with this department. I would like to hear your opinion. |
| Sebastian 30.07.2015 12:37 |
Excellent topic and excellent post (cut short by the word limit, though). Obviously 'Bo Rhap' has great harmony, my favourite part being the fanfare bit. No modulation, but such a beautiful progression: I > V > vi > V/vi > vi > V/vi > vi > V > I > V/iii > iii > IV > V, which in a way reminds me of I > IV > V/iii > iii > V at the end of the opera section. The song's full of gems, but that's the one that really tops everything else in my opinion. Now, without over-thinking it and from the top of my head, these would be my choices per album, admitting that there are many Queen songs I've never ever played and which I haven't necessarily sat to analyse harmonically: * Queen: The very end of 'My Fairy King.' * Queen II: 'White Queen' just before the solo. So beautiful and interesting. Also, 'Black Queen' just before the rock part. * Sheer: 'Killer Queen.' It's too obvious to pick the single, but the pre-chorus is just lovely and I really admire how effortlessly Fred managed to modulate a whole step up without simply shifting it. The progression's V/vi > vi > V > I > V/iii > iii , which can also be found on the aforementioned 'Bo Rhap' section, but this time Fred actually follows it with V/V, which at this point is not V/V anymore but a new tonic. Marvellous! * Opera: Besides the 'Bo Rhap' fanfare, the ending of 'The Prophet's Song.' Haven't really checked it, but maybe Brian put a similar functional harmony at the end of 'Who Wants to Live Forever,' which I also love. Dunno. * Races: I really like the I > bVI modulation on 'Lover Boy' via iv > bIII (vii > V), which is quite counter-intuitive, but it works, really well. The way the key returns to E-Flat Major via a simple bVI > V is brill. * News: 'All Dead, All Dead,' and I admit I'm biased because it's by far my favourite song on the album, but that walking bass on the chorus is breathtaking. * Jazz: 'Jealousy'... basically all of it. * Game: Probably the middle-eight on 'Sister.' I > ii > I > IV > V/V > V > V/vi > vi > V/IV > IV > ivhalfdim ... then May-estically resolved to I for the solo. * Flash: Another ascending chromatic one: the middle-eight of the title track. * Hot Space: Probably the middle-eight on 'Life Is Real.' * The Works: 'Hard Life' (pre-solo). * Magic: The ending of 'Who Wants to Live Forever.' * Miracle: Title track verse. * Innuendo: Title track, orchestral bit. * Made in Heaven: I agree with 'Winter's Tale.' |
| BETA215 30.07.2015 12:44 |
The March Of The Black Queen is great. I have less musical knowledge than you, but I tried to play it in piano and it's complex, not as songs like Teo Torriate which are far more simpler. |
| mooghead 30.07.2015 14:43 |
You are equating 'complex' with 'best'. 'Complex' can, perhaps, be agreed on. 'Best' is purely down to the individual taste of the listener. I think of the guitars in Sail Away Sweet Sister and the way they compliment each other, is that a 'harmony'? I think it is. |
| hobbit in Rhye 30.07.2015 14:53 |
One of the best topics lately, ZBGM0 and Sebastian ^^ I don't have anything to contribute, but I got what you said, and I enjoy reading this kind of topic. Thanks for pointing out: The piano transitions in BoRhap and WATC are very effective they made me want to jump in and sing. For A Winter's Tale, I don't really know because it doesn't sound as dramatic as the 2 examples above, but I'll give it another listen. I read in another forum some analysis about chord progressions by each member of the band, and how the poster guessed that Freddie chipped in quite often in John's songs just because of the chord progression proofs. |
| ZBGM0 30.07.2015 18:09 |
Sebastian, thanks. I didn't expect so many great examples. It clearly indicates you are expert on this department and that you have a lot of experiences with it. I think there is not many people that know Queen songs so well harmonically, your Queen-knowledge is really great. |
| ZBGM0 30.07.2015 19:09 |
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| ZBGM0 30.07.2015 19:21 |
mooghead wrote: You are equating 'complex' with 'best'. 'Complex' can, perhaps, be agreed on. 'Best' is purely down to the individual taste of the listener. I think of the guitars in Sail Away Sweet Sister and the way they compliment each other, is that a 'harmony'? I think it is.Yes, it might look like I equated "best" with "more/most complex" (maybe I wasn't very careful about picking the words, especially because text is so long), BUT I believe that everyone understands (hopefully) that all I had in my mind was OPINION about your favorite song from harmonic point of view which is of course very subjective, depends on someone's taste. HOWEVER, I believe there must be some level of complexity or something different involved in order to create harmonic masterpiece. And most people consider masterpiece as "one of my favorite", "best" or "one of the best" etc. OF COURSE you can say: "My favorite song (harmonically) is XYZ with 3 chords and I think it has much better harmony/chord progression than B. Rhap.,which is btw overrated (dis)harmonic garbage." Yes, no problem, you can say this because it's subjective, but this is as saying "I think Justin Bieber is a better musician than Mozart". Most teenage girls would say that. I hope I explained my view. |
| tomchristie22 31.07.2015 00:05 |
Excellent topic, very useful for people at my level who are just getting into music theory. |
| tomchristie22 31.07.2015 00:11 |
The middle section of '39 is very interesting to me, particularly in how it's so tonally ambiguous - I really wouldn't know what to call the tonic for much of that section. |
| tomchristie22 31.07.2015 00:28 |
mooghead wrote: I think of the guitars in Sail Away Sweet Sister and the way they compliment each other, is that a 'harmony'? I think it is.The guitars are harmonising, but that isn't quite the same thing as the overall concept of harmony which OP is referring to. |
| cmsdrums 31.07.2015 03:44 |
From a composition point of view, it is also interesting to look and compare the brilliance of the examples above with other songs in the catalogue that are pretty simple from a composition standpoint, but that are actually just as clever; an obvious example is 'I Want To Break Free' with just effectively a standard three chord blues progression in the verse, and the song has no chorus at all! 'The Hitman' is another song with no chorus...indeed for a band that is viewed as a 'singalong' hit single band it's impressive that quite a few songs of theirs don't actually have what would traditionally be viewed as a standalone chorus, and the 'hook' is actually often part of the verse! |
| Oscar J 31.07.2015 04:03 |
I will never consider I Want To Break Free a clever song. It's one of the most uninspired sounding songs in their whole catalogue... well, bar the synth solo. |
| bootLuca 31.07.2015 08:31 |
ZBGM0 wrote: Why I even write this? because it seems to me that more complex harmony can give so much extra emotions to the song (and makes the song much better of course) IF the composer knows how to use it correct (depends on the lyrics of the song). I believe most people don't realize that advanced harmony had such a powerful role that made Freddie's songs so good. For instance: most Queen fans get shivers down the spine (they are excited) when Freddie in Boh Rhap at 1:23 starts to sing "Mamaaaaa ooooooh", what they don't realize is that it is not excited so much because of the lyrics or vocal but because Freddie created well planed modulation from Bb to Eb. He made very good transition when he sings "But now I've gone and thrown it all away" and then BOOOM explosion in Eb, that's why this "Mamaaaaa" sounds so dramatic. Boh Rhap is what it is mostly because of the more complex harmony, not just lyrics and good vocals.There are a lot of beautiful chords in Bohemian Rhapsody, I love all the finale after the heavy part, but above all I love the ending from "nothing really matters to me" with that chord progression Bb11 - Eb - Ab/Eb - Eb - Adim/Eb - Bb/D - Bbm/Db - C - C7b9 - C7 - F - Bb/F - F - Ddim/F - C7sus4 - F Another song that I love it is the bridge of Lily Of The Valley (12 chords for 1 minute of song, not so bad :-P ), the part "I lie in wait with open eyes, I carry on through stormy skies", simple but very effective with the progression Dm - C#dim - Dm - C#dim - C - F, but maybe here the key is the expressive way which Freddie sings these lines |
| Sebastian 31.07.2015 11:34 |
What about creating a thread to analyse each song harmonically? |
| The King Of Rhye 31.07.2015 11:37 |
Cool topic....I'd say that it isnt just that their harmonies and chords were complex, but that they always seemed to make them sound good as well...where it's like every chord and modulation logically fits with the whole song, if that makes any sense :) |
| BETA215 01.08.2015 00:44 |
Sebastian wrote: What about creating a thread to analyze each song harmonically?I'm with you. :) Lets hope more people are interested. |
| Bohardy 01.08.2015 12:11 |
This is topic is right up my street. I'm a complete harmony addict. I wish I had the motivation to write loads on the subject like some of you, but I don't at the moment. But I willl just say one thing: Princes Of The Universe. Where the hell did that progression come from?! It's ridiculous. The whole song is really, but the chorus is particularly impressive. It doesn't use any particularly advanced chords, but the progression is just nuts, and it somehow doesn't really sound it, particularly as the melody on top is pretty catchy and doesn't sound convoluted in any way. Consider: A - D - C - Bb - A - D - C# - F# - D# - B7 - G#m7b5 - G - F#7 - Bm - G - F#7 - Bm One or two of those chords are primarliy 5th chords, which could be interpreted as major or minor (I've gone for major in each case). I think that's a pretty good example of the harmonic genius of Fred. |
| Cyborg 01.08.2015 13:28 |
Lots of great info about this topic at link I'm sure most of you already know the site but... |
| Dim 02.08.2015 11:59 |
Great topic!!! Keep on posting like that. Only Queen have such great fans!!!! |
| musicland munich 02.08.2015 13:51 |
May be a bit vaguely cause I write that from the top of my head, Isn't there a statement by Roger, that there is a song with some very complicated Chords ? And that they need Spike's help to figure them out ? |
| Bohardy 03.08.2015 18:02 |
musicland munich wrote: May be a bit vaguely cause I write that from the top of my head, Isn't there a statement by Roger, that there is a song with some very complicated Chords ? And that they need Spike's help to figure them out ?That was Radio Ga Ga, and I'm sure Roger was exaggerating somewhat. I think he said something to the effect that nobody in the band could remember what the chords were to the song, as they were too complicated, and then Spike came along and auditioned/rehearsed, and showed them what they were. There's only really one chord that's a bit 'complicated' (an Fm6/Ab in the bridge/pre-chorus). The rest - with the exception of the F7/Eb in the chorus, which isn't really that harmonically left-field - are all diatonic and straightforward. |
| The Real Wizard 03.08.2015 21:03 |
Bohardy wrote:Spike himself has told the story. It was at the beginning of the Works tour rehearsals.musicland munich wrote: May be a bit vaguely cause I write that from the top of my head, Isn't there a statement by Roger, that there is a song with some very complicated Chords ? And that they need Spike's help to figure them out ?That was Radio Ga Ga, and I'm sure Roger was exaggerating somewhat. I think he said something to the effect that nobody in the band could remember what the chords were to the song, as they were too complicated, and then Spike came along and auditioned/rehearsed, and showed them what they were. link ^ story here. |
| Bohardy 04.08.2015 02:10 |
The Real Wizard wrote:Cheers Bob. So no mention from Spike of the chords being difficult, rather it was just that the band couldn't really remember how it went.Bohardy wrote:Spike himself has told the story. It was at the beginning of the Works tour rehearsals. link ^ story here.musicland munich wrote: May be a bit vaguely cause I write that from the top of my head, Isn't there a statement by Roger, that there is a song with some very complicated Chords ? And that they need Spike's help to figure them out ?That was Radio Ga Ga, and I'm sure Roger was exaggerating somewhat. I think he said something to the effect that nobody in the band could remember what the chords were to the song, as they were too complicated, and then Spike came along and auditioned/rehearsed, and showed them what they were. I've got a vague memory, as musiclandmunich has, of Roger saying something about this too though. I may well be wrong though. |
| thomasquinn 32989 04.08.2015 06:51 |
Just like to point out here that some of the most genius moments, from a harmonic point of view, in Queen's work are not in the choice of chords, but in very imaginative voice-leading. When you're writing, for instance, multiple vocal lines, you don't simply look at which notes fit the accompanying chords, but also at counterpoint (the way multiple melodies move in relation to one another and the way they move to and from consonances/dissonances) and maintaining melodic lines with a degree of independence. If you listen to isolated tracks from the available multitracks, the wonderful way Queen often treated part-writing from a harmonic AND melodic perspective is among the most impressive of their feats in songwriting, IMHO. |
| cmsdrums 04.08.2015 09:42 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Just like to point out here that some of the most genius moments, from a harmonic point of view, in Queen's work are not in the choice of chords, but in very imaginative voice-leading. When you're writing, for instance, multiple vocal lines, you don't simply look at which notes fit the accompanying chords, but also at counterpoint (the way multiple melodies move in relation to one another and the way they move to and from consonances/dissonances) and maintaining melodic lines with a degree of independence. If you listen to isolated tracks from the available multitracks, the wonderful way Queen often treated part-writing from a harmonic AND melodic perspective is among the most impressive of their feats in songwriting, IMHO.Good point - and not just in relation to the harmony vocals too, but all aspects of the composiiton and arranging; the guitar harmonies (obviously!) are a highlight, but also how the bass lines and piano parts weave in and out of these so fluently and easily on the ear. |
| thomasquinn 32989 04.08.2015 10:25 |
Exactly. It applies to all writing in more than two parts (and, as far as simple counterpoint goes, also to two-part writing). |
| The Real Wizard 04.08.2015 14:18 |
At the end of the day it all comes down to melody. You can dress up music however you like or stick to meat and potatoes - but if there isn't a good melody, then very few people are going to want to listen to your music. The Ramones and Queen both had great melodies, but couldn't have addressed the garnish element much more differently. |
| Sebastian 04.08.2015 14:23 |
Bohardy wrote: I've got a vague memory, as musiclandmunich has, of Roger saying something about this too though. I may well be wrong though.What Roger said was that he came up with some chords that he wouldn't have thought of had he written the song on guitar. Some of the chords (and even the fact the song is in F Major) were certainly more natural for keyboards than guitar, especially for someone who was admittedly not particularly proficient at either. |
| Stelios 04.08.2015 17:35 |
What about The Show Must Go On ? Its quite a unique song with a somehow simple repetitive chord sequence a key modulation and a rather simple bridge section. However is very striking in its own way. Am i missing something? |
| Sebastian 04.08.2015 18:37 |
The basic template is fairly simple, but even then Brian managed to spice it up (e.g., the end of the first chorus, the dissonance in the middle-eight resolved to the relative) and, of course, the arrangement is beautiful (note how each section is quite different despite having the same chord sequence), the performance is exquisite (Fred's vocals are genius, but what the others did is also magnificent) and it's really well produced. It takes a remarkable artist to be able to come up with such a masterpiece over a relatively straightforward initial formula. Most people would've come up with a forgettable cyclic bubblegum pop or a simple formulaic pop-punk with those tools, yet Brian managed to create a work of art like that. Absolutely phenomenal. |
| The King Of Rhye 05.08.2015 19:46 |
Sebastian wrote: What Roger said was that he came up with some chords that he wouldn't have thought of had he written the song on guitar. Some of the chords (and even the fact the song is in F Major) were certainly more natural for keyboards than guitar, especially for someone who was admittedly not particularly proficient at either.I don't know how exactly it went, but there was a quote from Brian where he said something like that about Freddie's songs, that even when he would write songs on guitar, they wouldn't be in usual 'guitar-friendly' keys (I guess CLTCL would be an exception) |
| Sebastian 05.08.2015 22:08 |
To be fair, other Freddie's songs that have been confirmed or which are regularly suspected to have been written on guitar tend to be in guitar-friendly keys (e.g., 'Great King Rat', 'Liar', 'Ogre Battle'). I suppose 'Mad the Swine' could be an exception, unless they simply tuned their guitars half a step down. |
| Stelios 05.08.2015 23:17 |
Thanks Sebastian for the input on Show Must Go On.Interesting And obviously its got a hell of a vocal line/melody. I think it could have worked with any chord progression behind it. The one they chose brings the song to another level of course. As for Freddie songs not beeing in usual 'guitar-friendly' keys as The King Of Rhye sais, i sure remeber that also but not for the guitar based writen. If there is a quote even for those ones, i haven't heard of. |
| Sebastian 06.08.2015 19:12 |
Yes, definitely the melody's brilliant there. Brian was also an anacrusis expert, and that helped make his songs more uplifting (All Dead, I Want It All, Save Me, Another World, Keep Yourself Alive...). Being a magnificent songwriter is not necessarily a matter of coming up with crazy progressions or rare functional harmony, it's being able to excel even with relatively few tools to work with, managing to be clear and precise but also clever and detailed rather than just either... or... By the time he wrote 'Show Must Go On' he had over two decades of experience as a professional composer, and it shows. |
| tomchristie22 07.08.2015 01:44 |
Do we know much about how Brian and Freddie became such sophisticated songwriters? Where and how did they learn, and for how long had they been writing in order for them to already be so incredible at it by the time they were recording their earliest stuff? |
| Sebastian 07.08.2015 05:52 |
I guess a starting point is how they were both really good listeners and they both learnt their instruments (piano for Fred, guitar *and* piano for Brian) to a good standard before they began writing, or at least before they began writing stuff that wound up in records. What's been described briefly is that Fred's songwriting approach, especially in the early days, was to have a clear view of what he wanted (e.g., 'I want a song about having been triumphant over some difficult times', and then 'Champions' is born) and then write and re-write, take his pieces apart, make changes, tweak them and so on until they were exactly as he wanted them. 'Master-Stroke' could also be an example: he wanted to translate the painting into music; for 'Killer Queen' he uncharacteristically had the lyrics first, so then he wrote music that would fit their tone and subject matter. Brian's approach might have been (I'm just speculating here) similar sometimes. He said he wanted ''39' to be 'a skiffle song about time travel,' and he built it from there. 'It's Late': a play in three acts. 'We Will Rock You': something the audience could participate on (by stomping, clapping and singing) and reflecting what he rightly called 'the futility of violence'. 'Good Company' also had a clear narrative with the character he created and how he went through all those stages, but also musically it started off with George Formby and ended up with Temperance Seven, so it seems to me that he also had a very clear idea of the kind of song he wanted. In terms of transferable skills, they were both quite creative: Freddie with his drawings and his designs, Brian making the guitar with his dad. Those are aspects that weren't directly related to songwriting but which developed patience, craftsmanship, efficiency and attention to detail, which they could then apply to everything else. Look at how Freddie was such a great producer (e.g., 'One Vision'), how keen he was on giving ideas for videos, etc., all those aspects have a common denominator: creativity, good ideas, a vision. Look at how Brian's so passionate about stereo photography, animal welfare, astrophysics, Star Wars collecting, teaching (in the early 70's some primary school kids were lucky enough to have Mr May himself as their maths lecturer) ... again, the elements of patience, perseverance and perfectionism are there. To put it in a bit of a Freudian stereotype: he can thank mum and dad for that, and he has, many times. |
| Mr.QueenFan 10.08.2015 15:11 |
Sebastian wrote: (...) It takes a remarkable artist to be able to come up with such a masterpiece over a relatively straightforward initial formula. Most people would've come up with a forgettable cyclic bubblegum pop or a simple formulaic pop-punk with those tools, yet Brian managed to create a work of art like that. Absolutely phenomenal.Queen's masterpiece! The first time i heard TSMGO, my first thought was "This is the reason why you form a band! To produce something like this." I wouldn't mind be a one-hit wonder if this was my hit! By the way Sebastian, you seem to know a lot about music theory and scales. Can you indicate a good book about music theory that comprises everything you have discussed in this topic? I play the guitar, and i play by ear, but i find it fascinating to be able to undersand music at your level. I'm looking for something easy to understand about scales and how they relate to each other. This is a fantastic thread and it's fascinating to read the replies of all who understand music at such level. Well donne! |
| Sebastian 10.08.2015 19:59 |
I'm not an expert at all, I've only learnt a few things by reading and analysing, but I'm sure there are plenty of people far more qualified. Anyway, I'd say PD's song analyses could be a good start: link |
| Cyborg 10.08.2015 20:10 |
By the way, PD has this to say about Bicycle Race: "Beneath the catchy surface this song is perhaps the most complex 3-minute (3:01) pop-rock hit song ever in terms of harmony and rhythm, no less." I don't think anyone has mentioned Bicycle Race in this topic yet. What do you think about it? |
| Bike It 80 10.08.2015 22:32 |
^^^ This song is just crazy. What amazes me the most with Bicycle Race is that when you listen to each instrument separately during the verses, it doesn't make much sense, but blended together : it works! And the guitar solo designed to represent two people racing against each other : brilliant! |
| Stelios 11.08.2015 01:11 |
Mr.QueenFan wrote:Exactly my thoughts on TSMGO and Sebastian also. I am like you Mr.QueenFan though i play the keybords.Sebastian wrote: (...) It takes a remarkable artist to be able to come up with such a masterpiece over a relatively straightforward initial formula. Most people would've come up with a forgettable cyclic bubblegum pop or a simple formulaic pop-punk with those tools, yet Brian managed to create a work of art like that. Absolutely phenomenal.Queen's masterpiece! The first time i heard TSMGO, my first thought was "This is the reason why you form a band! To produce something like this." I wouldn't mind be a one-hit wonder if this was my hit! By the way Sebastian, you seem to know a lot about music theory and scales. Can you indicate a good book about music theory that comprises everything you have discussed in this topic? I play the guitar, and i play by ear, but i find it fascinating to be able to undersand music at your level. I'm looking for something easy to understand about scales and how they relate to each other. This is a fantastic thread and it's fascinating to read the replies of all who understand music at such level. Well donne! |
| Mr.QueenFan 11.08.2015 06:25 |
Sebastian wrote: I'm not an expert at all, I've only learnt a few things by reading and analysing, but I'm sure there are plenty of people far more qualified. Anyway, I'd say PD's song analyses could be a good start: link .It is indeed a great site! I will definitely be reading it. Thanks for the tip. |
| cmsdrums 11.08.2015 07:27 |
A great site...apart from the typo on the page header!!! |
| Mr.QueenFan 11.08.2015 16:03 |
Bike It 80 wrote: ^^^ This song is just crazy. What amazes me the most with Bicycle Race is that when you listen to each instrument separately during the verses, it doesn't make much sense, but blended together : it works! And the guitar solo designed to represent two people racing against each other : brilliant!That is a great analogy for the solo. Never thought of it that way, but you're right! |
| Bike It 80 11.08.2015 16:18 |
Mr.QueenFan wrote:I can't claim credit for that, I read it somewhere but I can't remember where exactly. Never thought of it that way either before I read it!Bike It 80 wrote: ^^^ This song is just crazy. What amazes me the most with Bicycle Race is that when you listen to each instrument separately during the verses, it doesn't make much sense, but blended together : it works! And the guitar solo designed to represent two people racing against each other : brilliant!That is a great analogy for the solo. Never thought of it that way, but you're right! |
| HighWideandHandsome 24.08.2015 18:10 |
BETA215 wrote:I would like this...a lot!Sebastian wrote: What about creating a thread to analyze each song harmonically?I'm with you. :) Lets hope more people are interested. |