QueenZone discussion #1433246

Sebastian wrote: I don't think it's *that* complicated. It's a beautiful song and it's got loads of interesting details, but so are other tracks that he wrote. The fact John wasn't a singer didn't disable him from being able to arrange vocal harmonies for the others to sing. Getting progressively into more elaborate material, from 'Misfire' to 'Best Friend' to 'You and I' and then going in the other direction and coming up with 'Spread Your wings', 'In Only Seven Days' and 'Need Your Loving Tonight' makes sense in the big picture, as does the evolution of any other songwriter (e.g., Brian going from co-writing 'Doing All Right' to coming up with 'Father to Son', 'Brighton Rock', peaking on 'Prophet's Song' and then getting progressively simpler with 'White Man', 'All Dead', 'Leaving Home Ain't Easy' and 'Sail Away Sweet Sister', or Freddie going from 'My Fairy King' to 'Black Queen' to 'Lap of the Gods' to 'Bo Rhap' and then dialling it down for 'Millionaire Waltz' and gradually getting simpler up to the times of 'Body Language' and 'Staying Power').

Holly2003 wrote: Did John compose anything as complicated before or after You and I? If not, it seems highly likely that another band member -- likely Fred -- gave him some help.

Holly2003 wrote: The section with the lyrics "You know I never could foresee the future years" is very similar to the section (coda?) in MotBQ with vocals "I reign with my left hand, I rule with my right".

Sunshine wrote: With 'that complicated' I mean compared to John's catalogue.

Sunshine wrote: You and I has so many more features than any other JD song.

Sunshine wrote: Listen to the harmonies, tempo changes, chord changes, guitar arrangements, combining different scales into one song. All things that were scarce or absent on JD songs in general.

Sunshine wrote: Freddie ... wrote more complicated things like It's A Hard Life, Keep Passing The Open Windows

Sunshine wrote: the whole Barcelona LP, which was probably his most complicated songwriting ever.

Sunshine wrote: John on the other hand, kept simple all his career

Sunshine wrote: I was just wondering if someone could confirm that Freddie was heavily involved with this track because for me, it has Freddie allover the place.

Sunshine wrote: And Freddie was involved in other people songs, notably Radio Gaga and A Kind Of Magic.

onedunpark wrote: A fabulous song. My favourite Deaky song, for what it's worth.

mooghead wrote: Somebody, somewhere probably could, but no one who frequents this site. It's all speculation.

matt z wrote: My cats breath smells like cat food

Sebastian wrote:

Holly2003 wrote: Did John compose anything as complicated before or after You and I? If not, it seems highly likely that another band member -- likely Fred -- gave him some help.

Not necessarily. It could've simply been his peak. There are no officially released songs with Roger singing any higher than on 'Survival' before or since, but that doesn't mean he didn't sing there, it just means that was his peak. 'You and I' could be to John what 'Prophet's Song' was to Brian, 'Bo Rhap' to Fred, 'Tenement Funster' to Roger.

Sebastian wrote: The simplest answer, which agrees with the credits on the liner notes, is that John wrote it. .

Sebastian wrote: The simplest answer, which agrees with the credits on the liner notes, is that John wrote it.

tomchristie22 wrote: I'd say the only way to get any definitive answer on this is to ask Brian

onedunpark wrote: Nothing short of scandalous that it never made Deep Cuts and more recently Forever, which was supposed to be on a broad theme of love. '39 / Drowse - really?

Sunshine wrote: I just was wondering how much influence Freddie had on this track. As far as I am concerned, John never wrote such a complicated track before or after this one. "You're My Best Friend" and "Misfire" are hardly as complicated nor is "Spread Your Wings" or I"f You Can't Beat Them" and In "Only Seven Days". It has key changes, tempochanges, lots of harmonies that says 'Freddie' allover. I suspect Freddie cowrote or at least coarranged this song because it became a small masterpiece. How are you thoughts about this track?

Holly2003 wrote: By that logic, Fred and John had over a decade in the band and also as professional musicians and they came up with that work of musical genius, Cool Cat.

Sebastian wrote:

Holly2003 wrote: By that logic, Fred and John had over a decade in the band and also as professional musicians and they came up with that work of musical genius, Cool Cat.

Yeah but it's not the same case.

Panchgani wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

Holly2003 wrote: By that logic, Fred and John had over a decade in the band and also as professional musicians and they came up with that work of musical genius, Cool Cat.

Yeah but it's not the same case.

... John and Freddie's songwriting abilities appear to have generally burned out after the Game was recorded in 1980.

Sebastian wrote: A lot of those are actually quite good songs, but they got ruined by sub-par performance. They're not badly done, but coming from a band who not only could do much better, but also routinely did, they were a disappointment.

Panchgani wrote: In contrast, for The Game & earlier, I would only consider the folllowing John & Freddie songs to be unremarkable: My Fairy King, Jesus, You're My Best Friend, My Meloncholy Blues, Jealousy & Play the Game.

mooghead wrote: You wrote 'performance' when you meant 'production'

Mr.QueenFan wrote: ... the band weren't in the studio at the same time for most of it. And in some songs it showed!

Sebastian wrote:

Mr.QueenFan wrote: ... the band weren't in the studio at the same time for most of it. And in some songs it showed!

There's only one song on the first side featuring all four band members; and there's only one song on the second side not to feature all four band members.

Panchgani wrote: As i generally have poor taste, it should be no surprise that I love Don't Try Suicide. :)

Mr.QueenFan wrote:

Sebastian wrote:

Mr.QueenFan wrote: ... the band weren't in the studio at the same time for most of it. And in some songs it showed!

There's only one song on the first side featuring all four band members; and there's only one song on the second side not to feature all four band members.

Yes, but the impression i got from Mack's words was that even in the songs they were all featured, they weren't there in the studio at the same time. ----------------------------------------- By the way Sebastian, have you ever thought about comprising your posts - about statistics, studios used, pianos, etc - on a PDF file and share it here with us. I know it's out there for those who want to read it, but it would be good to have all that information featured in one place. Or you could write your own book about Queen, and sell it. I'm prety sure many people in Queen comunity share the same feeling when i say that we would be proud to buy your book. At least you have passion, and you do your research. And it seems that you like doing it, which is very important. All the information you already have about Queen shouldn't go to waste. And even if you don't have the support of QP, don't let that stop you! I think that it's only natural that you write a book about Queen. I know you didn't ask for my opinion, but here it is :-)

Mr.QueenFan wrote: Yes, but the impression i got from Mack's words was that even in the songs they were all featured, they weren't there in the studio at the same time.

Mr.QueenFan wrote: By the way Sebastian, have you ever thought about comprising your posts - about statistics, studios used, pianos, etc - on a PDF file and share it here with us. I know it's out there for those who want to read it, but it would be good to have all that information featured in one place.

Mr.QueenFan wrote: Or you could write your own book about Queen, and sell it.

Mr.QueenFan wrote: I'm prety sure many people in Queen comunity share the same feeling when i say that we would be proud to buy your book.

Mr.QueenFan wrote: I know you didn't ask for my opinion, but here it is :-)

Sebastian wrote:

mooghead wrote: You wrote 'performance' when you meant 'production'

No, I didn't. Had I meant production, I would've written production. Production was fine. Performance was sub-par. .

mooghead wrote: "but they got ruined by sub-par performance." You wrote 'performance' when you meant 'production'

Sebastian wrote: There are quite a few parametres to define 'sub-par' other than alleged absence or presence of mistakes. A synth-generated bass-line is sub-par, in my opinion, when compared to the work of an actual professional bass player. There, alone, almost half of 'Hot Space' is already sub-par, not even factoring in drum computers, looped sequences, arpeggiators and so on. There's nothing wrong with technology, as long as it doesn't overtake the human element. There's a reason why people still go and see orchestras rather than just hearing a (mistake-less) midi of the same pieces on a sampler.

miraclesteinway wrote: In Seven Seas of Rhye, Brian actually wrote the G major middle section.

onedunpark wrote: The video aside, that the band that released the early material could also release I Want To Break Free/The Miracle (specifically the song, but equally largely the whole album) staggers me. Utter Euro-Pop shite. .

onedunpark wrote: (...)the fact that it never made Forever is absolutely criminal and a clear sign of the extent to which he is marginallised, by choice to a degree perhaps - but certainly by the other two. "He still enjoys the cheques" says RT. There's a statement that lacks class and is utterly unnecessary Hmm, that largely sums up their output as an Organisation since Deaky decide to step back from it (and i accept that he was - musically - culpable for IWTBF and some of the rest before it's pointed out !! ) Rant over. Going back to my red wine. .

Mr.QueenFan wrote: John made the right decision not to include Brian on this song

Mr.QueenFan wrote: I'm not against pop when it's made right

Mr.QueenFan wrote: John has the right not to be involved, but the guy doesn't even has the decency - and the well manners - to respond to the Rhys Thomas letters

Mr.QueenFan wrote: I mean, he's very lucky to be in a band with three gentleman, because Axl Rose or Liam Galagher wouldn't put up with this.

Mr.QueenFan wrote: He doesn't appear on the DVD's extras - audio commentary, and he doesn't contribute with anything to Queen related products- He doesn't even says nothing to the fans for 20 years.

Mr.QueenFan wrote: So i don't understand why people keep attacking Brian and Roger, making them sound has bullies

Mr.QueenFan wrote: when in fact John doesn't give a shit about Queen anymore.

Mr.QueenFan wrote: Considering the circumstances i think that both Brian and Roger are taking care of him, because they still include his songs in many Queen projects.

Mr.QueenFan wrote: Oh, and by the way, before people starting talking about John being fragile. That's BS! I've seen pictures of him with his family on vacation and weddings in the past five years or so.

Mr.QueenFan wrote: because the alternative would be that he's the one not behaving good in this situaltion. It's called denial!

Mr.QueenFan wrote: He has the right to do what he wants with his life, i just don't get why Brian and Roger get attacked by it. It was his choice!

Sebastian wrote:

Mr.QueenFan wrote: John made the right decision not to include Brian on this song

Brian is there of course. Yeah, the solo's Fred Mandel on a synth, but those three-part harmonies on the intro didn't just play themselves. .

Sebastian wrote:

Mr.QueenFan wrote: I'm not against pop when it's made right

A well-constructed pop song takes as much time, effort, skills, talent, etc., as a well-constructed rock song, or a well-constructed blues song, etc. My problem with 'Break Free', personally, has never been the fact it's a pop song. It's about the predictable lyrics ('You and I' and 'Spread Your Wings' are virtually Shakespeare compared to it) and the drum machine. In that sense, I feel there are dozens and dozens of Queen songs which are way better than this one, and perhaps also a dozen of John songs, which is nearly all of them, really. .

Sebastian wrote:

Mr.QueenFan wrote: John has the right not to be involved, but the guy doesn't even has the decency - and the well manners - to respond to the Rhys Thomas letters

We've only heard one side of the story there. .

Sebastian wrote:

Mr.QueenFan wrote: I mean, he's very lucky to be in a band with three gentleman, because Axl Rose or Liam Galagher wouldn't put up with this.

He was lucky to be with them, but they were lucky to be with him as well. Axl and Liam, good as they are, have also faced the consequences of the way they've treated others. (...) .

Sebastian wrote:

Mr.QueenFan wrote: He doesn't appear on the DVD's extras - audio commentary, and he doesn't contribute with anything to Queen related products- He doesn't even says nothing to the fans for 20 years. .

He's entitled not to do so. He owes them and us absolutely nothing. If he ever wants to show up for one of those, that's great, but if he doesn't, he doesn't, full stop, that doesn't make him a villain either. .

Sebastian wrote:

Mr.QueenFan wrote: So i don't understand why people keep attacking Brian and Roger, making them sound has bullies

I hardly think anyone with a minimum of sense would accuse them of that, especially when we've got no idea of what's actually going on between those three. .

Sebastian wrote:

Mr.QueenFan wrote: when in fact John doesn't give a shit about Queen anymore.

We've only heard one side of the story. .

Sebastian wrote:

Mr.QueenFan wrote: Considering the circumstances i think that both Brian and Roger are taking care of him, because they still include his songs in many Queen projects.

Well, it'd be ridiculous to make a greatest hits compilation without having their (once) greatest hit ever, wouldn't it? Again, it's not like they're doing it out of mercy; 'Break Free' works on a live setting because most people want to hear it, so it wouldn't make sense to discard it. .

Sebastian wrote:

Mr.QueenFan wrote: Oh, and by the way, before people starting talking about John being fragile. That's BS! I've seen pictures of him with his family on vacation and weddings in the past five years or so.

Yeah, because a fragile person cannot possibly attend a wedding or go on holiday... .

Sebastian wrote:

Mr.QueenFan wrote: because the alternative would be that he's the one not behaving good in this situaltion. It's called denial!

No, that's not 'the' alternative, that's just 'an' alternative. Life's not black and white, and it's not a greyscale either. There are millions of colours, and not being able to see the infrared or the ultraviolet doesn't mean they don't exist. .

Sebastian wrote:

Mr.QueenFan wrote: He has the right to do what he wants with his life, i just don't get why Brian and Roger get attacked by it. It was his choice!

I don't think they get 'attacked'.

cmsdrums wrote: Seb says that 'we've only heard one side of the story' in relation to John's silence'......I think that's the whole point isn't it?!!

Mr.QueenFan wrote: You know very well that they have been heavily attacked by the online communities - Queenzone and Queenonline.

Mr.QueenFan wrote: Specially Adam Lambert was the target of many homophobic comments both here in Queenzone and in Queenonline.

Mr.QueenFan wrote: There's nothing that Brian and Roger do that doesn't get heavily criticized, yet John's decision to retire is applauded when he doesn't bring anything to the table anymore (and that's his right!)

Sebastian wrote: It is true that some people just like to moan and some people are such stepfords that they'll welcome anything, but those are just exaggerated archetypes. The vast majority of people are sensible enough to make up their minds and have their reasons for it. Not everyone who goes to QAL concerts is a sold-out poseur who's musically ignorant and doesn't know anything about the 'real' Queen, and not everyone who refuses to go is a bitter-grumpy-living-in-the-past-arrogant-self-defined-legacy-protector-purist who will never accept anything that doesn't include Freddie (or John). Maybe someone genuinely doesn't care for Adam, and that doesn't mean they're homophobic or narrow-minded; likewise, maybe someone genuinely likes Adam's voice, and that's absolutely fine.

Sebastian wrote: Thousands of people have applauded Brian's and Roger's actions. You can see the huge crowds who went to their concerts with either Paul or Adam, etc., and the amount of people who've bought their new records, etc. They're not 'universally' applauded and that's what seems to piss some people off. Not everybody's going to agree with what they do, not everybody's gonna like it, it's as simple as that. .

Chief Mouse wrote: Hehe, thanks for the reference, Mr.QueenFan. Glad I could help :-)

onedunpark wrote: Performance is far more a quality issue for me from a drumming point of view on tracks such as 'It's a Hard Life', 'One Vision' and others - the drums are real, so the right decision was made to use them above programmed ones, but Roger's choice of what to play really is 'going through the motions' and is mostly uninspiring. I know the style of music and songwriting changed, but when I listen to his playing across older tracks like 'the Fairy Feller's Master Stroke', 'It's Late', 'Killer Queen', Flick of The Wrist' etc.. there are lovely little touches that he thought about such as sizzled hi hat fills, thundering tom rolls, cymbal catches and the like, but this is all sorely not even contemplated in the 80s on the occasions he actually got to play on tracks! ===== As far as I'm concerned, and in fairness this belongs to another thread, I think that in the early days there was an intention and commitment by the band to play to the best of (and beyond) their ability and show the world just how magnificent they were. Their individual musicality was magical and collectively they were a joy to listen to. As "cmsdrums" and "Sebastian" both suggest, their input as musicians with respect to "real" instruments was incredible. I'm not so sure how contentious a point it is to say that by the 80's they were far more about spectacle and event and less interested in being musically challenged or interesting. I'm probably completely on my own here but I haven't voluntarily listened to anything post-Game in the last 20 years, as i just think they became more about spectacle and less about music. The ratio of gold-to-turd went almost perfectly from one to the other when viewing their career output as far as I'm concerned.

Vocal harmony wrote: Bill Bruford, long time King Crimson drummer is not in the current line up. The band have been touring very successfully and plan to record a new album. Bill has retired from playing, but Robert Fripp hasn't. There is no problem with that, no conspiracy, just the plain simple fact that he has retired. Yes the fans would love to see him play, but he's no longer a band member and that's fine. John Deacon, long time Queen Bassist decides to retire from the music business, but in Queen fandom that's a sure sign that he has gone batshit, can't stand the rest of the band couldn't handle stardom etc etc. . . Why can't he just be retired. Escaped from the demands of being a famous pro musician with his health intact and a life and family to enjoy. Yes he still makes money from once being a member of the band, but that's what happens if you write songs that still sell in one form or another. It doesn't mean he has to be part of it anymore. How many people work, and get on with, people who than leave or retire from a business and don't stay in touch. Not everyone moves in the same direction with the same goals and views of life.

Sheer Brass Neck wrote: I missed the onedunpark post and agree, absolutely accurate and sums up Queen in the 80s pretty precisely.

Sebastian wrote:

Sheer Brass Neck wrote: I missed the onedunpark post and agree, absolutely accurate and sums up Queen in the 80s pretty precisely.

I second that.

The Real Wizard wrote: Everything changes by The Game. They are a very different band from Jazz. It's the first record where they're trying for commercial success over artistic integrity. Jazz shows them in transition, and there are a few below average tracks - but they still sound like Queen. On The Game they sound like any number of bands. This marks where they transition from leaders to followers. They wouldn't creatively find their footing again for a decade.

Sebastian wrote: I suppose a major part of their ambition was touring and having that chemistry with the audience. In 1975, they needed a hit album in order to play larger venues and be invited to more territories (the Rainbow Theatre is still relatively small by comparison), but in 1985 they didn't need a new 'Bo Rhap' or a new 'Prophet's Song.' It was more like having an album to promote but even if they hadn't released anything they'd still manage to sell out Wembley (possibly). So they knew they could do a half-arsed job (though I do agree 'Who Wants to Live Forever' is phenomenal) and still tour football stadia.

Oscar J wrote:

Sebastian wrote: I suppose a major part of their ambition was touring and having that chemistry with the audience. In 1975, they needed a hit album in order to play larger venues and be invited to more territories (the Rainbow Theatre is still relatively small by comparison), but in 1985 they didn't need a new 'Bo Rhap' or a new 'Prophet's Song.' It was more like having an album to promote but even if they hadn't released anything they'd still manage to sell out Wembley (possibly). So they knew they could do a half-arsed job (though I do agree 'Who Wants to Live Forever' is phenomenal) and still tour football stadia.

That might be part of the problem, but IIRC they didn't sell out in North America in 1982 after Hot Space, so they didn't get away with half assed music there. Since they cared so much about breakthrough in the US a few years earlier, you'd have thought they would up their game again in order to find their way back.

Oscar J wrote: IIRC they didn't sell out in North America in 1982 after Hot Space, so they didn't get away with half assed music there. Since they cared so much about breakthrough in the US a few years earlier, you'd have thought they would up their game again in order to find their way back.

Sheer Brass Neck wrote: To me the miracle of Queen is their belief in themselves and playing for what they liked and succeeding and not caring about what fans or the press liked, and finding ann audience. Queen was a heavy rock band at the start, and morphed to a more poppy rock bad around The Game. But, in a world of 3 minute singles in 4/4 time, if you were to say to anyone that the key to success in music is releasing an opera based song with no chorus and multiple time signatures as your make or break it single, followed by a 12/8 gospel based single for your next album, and then two minutes of stomping on wood with singing but no music save for an ending guitar solo as your next single, backed by a 6/8 single that the press thinks is about how great you are, and oh yeah, open your next album with a track that contains virtually no English language lyrics and have a single about riding your bicycle and again, a strange collection of time signatures and a bicycle bell solo, then your next album has a sparse sound and a lead off single that people think is Elvis Presley, and follow that up with a single that people think is performed by a black r'and b group, sure, that's the key to success. Fucking amazing they even had a contract. But god damn it, those years were amazing and that music was art. Decline started when they followed the money.