| thomasquinn 32989 25.11.2014 02:12 |
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/24/justice/ferguson-grand-jury/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 So basically, the jury (a perversion of justice to begin with) decided that some witnesses weren't reliable, and so it's not a problem that a cop shot an unarmed boy. The cop says the boy would have beaten him to death, apparently with his bare hands as he didn't have any kind of weapon, makeshift or otherwise, on or near him when he was shot. That the jury DID believe. I didn't know they hired hysterical cowards as cops nowadays - if you're afraid some random unarmed teenager is going to kill you, and you respond by opening fire, you should go into accountancy instead. Respect for the police? Not anymore, thanks to the police. This is the umpteenth incident with aggressive cops this year and no, that's not just a USA issue. I don't usually praise the UK, but at least they have the good sense not to immediately arm every policeman to the teeth. |
| GERRYISADICK 25.11.2014 04:51 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/11/24/justice/ferguson-grand-jury/index.html?hpt=hp_t1 So basically, the jury (a perversion of justice to begin with) decided that some witnesses weren't reliable, and so it's not a problem that a cop shot an unarmed boy. The cop says the boy would have beaten him to death, apparently with his bare hands as he didn't have any kind of weapon, makeshift or otherwise, on or near him when he was shot. That the jury DID believe. I didn't know they hired hysterical cowards as cops nowadays - if you're afraid some random unarmed teenager is going to kill you, and you respond by opening fire, you should go into accountancy instead. Respect for the police? Not anymore, thanks to the police. This is the umpteenth incident with aggressive cops this year and no, that's not just a USA issue. I don't usually praise the UK, but at least they have the good sense not to immediately arm every policeman to the teeth.Justice was served whether you like the outcome or not. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 25.11.2014 06:31 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: I didn't know they hired hysterical cowards as cops nowadays - if you're afraid some random unarmed teenager is going to kill you, and you respond by opening fire, you should go into accountancy instead.The unarmed teen had just stolen cigars from a local shop and roughed up the elder clerk on the way out. The unarmed teen was huge, not only tall but bulky. He was an imposing force. He knew it and he used it. But he WAS unarmed. He was mocking the cop, challenging him and getting in his face. Oddly, I thought those were all scenarios cops were trained to deal with. Unfortunately, the evidence the Grand Jury threw out had to do with testimony that said Michael's hands were up when he was shot and that he'd been deliberately shot in the back multiple times. Three autopsies proved those eyewitness accounts to be false. He was shot through the front of one arm, the angle proving the arm was down. No shots entered his back but rather exited. Excessive force still killed this unarmed youth and I can't even grasp the level of agony his parents feel. I have one child, who’s now on her own. I worry for her but my worry will never match that of a parent of a black male. Young black men are seen as criminals throughout this country and I don't see that changing any time soon. It's disgusting and shameful however... Riots such as those in Ferguson, with black men – from within and beyond the community – arriving hours before the decision was read with scarves and masks hiding their faces, with loaded weapons and with the intent to do damage, don't help change public opinion. From that public opinion standpoint, violence from them is like some of the antics PETA pulls off - which no matter how much you might support their cause, make it nearly impossible to show or feel that support for them. (I'm not comparing the actions but the emotional responses to them) There were riots in my hometown as well as in Ferguson and other places last night. My daughter is traveling now. Will she pass through these places? When? How high will the danger level be? So not only am I horrified this cop got off without so much as a slap on the wrist – and that he’s neither the first nor will he be the last – but I also fear for the safety of others, including that of my own family. One injustice fuels so many more and the cycle goes on with no end and no justice in sight. EDIT - I got so caught up in the emotion of the situation I forgot to post an important part - Michael Brown's parents not only pleaded for calm before the decision was read but have also been advocating for body cameras to be worn by all cops, in every precinct, at all times. It's an action, a result, that everyone should be able to rally behind. Even if it doesn't stop these things from happening (though in tests, it has proven to greatly reduce incidents of excessive force), or change the mindset, it will help to show proof - for both sides to see - of which actions were just and which were not. |
| brENsKi 25.11.2014 12:01 |
Casper, what's your view on the incident near Cleveland of the young boy with the fake gun in the park? |
| Saint Jiub 25.11.2014 22:44 |
I'll just leave this balanced but racist article from Fox News cuz Casper knows all. link |
| pittrek 26.11.2014 06:14 |
I seriously fail to see anything wrong when a police officer shoots a thief who wants to harm him. And I don't care if the thief is black or white or orange with purple dots. |
| The Real Wizard 26.11.2014 09:53 |
TQ - this is one of the few times we'll diametrically disagree. The kid had just completed a robbery. He was confrontational towards the cop. He slammed the cop's car door in his face and tried to take his gun. The cop just did his job. And the witnesses lied. They insisted the kid was shot in the back, but every expert in the book clarified that there was no gunshot sound to the back. Even if these people did have a legit case, they shot themselves in the foot with this one by lying. Yet if a black person shot another black person, there wouldn't be a single witness. Right. These small US towns need to transfer the white cops somewhere else and hire more black cops. That's the closest thing to a solution they're ever going to find. |
| Donna13 26.11.2014 12:12 |
Well, I think that the evidence was not presented to the public until after the decision was made by the grand jury. The whole protest movement of "hands up; don't shoot" was based on something that didn't happen in the first place. Inaccurate reports are common among eye witnesses (stress, and/or false assumptions) so the forensic evidence is key to finding the truth among diverse accounts and memories. The protests are about a bigger issue and that is the lifelong frustration of blacks about racial profiling. Young black men are seen as potentially armed and dangerous or more likely to become violent and so they are treated differently by people who are afraid of them. They feel they are being treated as less than human by society. |
| YourValentine 27.11.2014 02:39 |
Whenever a policeman shoots a citizen into the face twice and there is no public trial there is something wrong with the justice system. The public must have the chance to hear the evidence, witnesses and facts. A human being was shot 6 times and the shooter was not even indicted. The alternative is civil war and that is what is happening now. |
| thomasquinn 32989 27.11.2014 04:52 |
brENsKi wrote: Casper, what's your view on the incident near Cleveland of the young boy with the fake gun in the park? Another obvious case of an overly aggressive, needlessly violent response by the police. Video images released show that the cop did not give the boy a ghost of a chance to comply with any instructions like "drop the gun", but shot him almost as soon as he got out of the car. Passers-by are, also on the basis of the same video, utterly unimpressed by the boy with his fake gun. The person who reported the incident to the police, leading to this brutal response, mentioned IN HIS PHONECALL TO THE POLICE that the gun was probably fake. The policeman shot the boy from so close that he must have been able to see the gun was fake. Even if he didn't, he was close enough to use non-lethal fire. This is manslaughter at the least, but the two-bit cop will go unpunished, because being a policeman puts you above the law, as it has been since 9/11 at the latest. I have 0 respect left for the police. Policemen like this deserve to get shot up by gangs. EDIT: there is, of course, another issue here - toy guns have gotten waaaaaay too realistic. That's something the manufacturers need to address, but in our hysterical free market, they won't so long as the things sell well. So this needs to be addressed through legislation, I think. Still, if you see a 12-year-old in a park with a gun, your first assumption should not be that he is a hardened criminal looking to kill people. I seriously doubt this tragedy would have happened 50 years ago, even if the the gun had been fairly realistic. I work with children (ages 8-14 mostly) a lot, and I see an increasing intolerance of children and child-like behaviour by adults. That worries me deeply - children are increasingly expected to act like responsible adults from before they're 10. Even in my 'tolerant' country, The Netherlands, we've had about a dozen incidents the past three years of adults threatening schools with violence, and in one case an actual (fortunately non-lethal) attack, because the children are being "too loud" in the playground!!! |
| thomasquinn 32989 27.11.2014 04:55 |
The Real Wizard wrote: TQ - this is one of the few times we'll diametrically disagree. The kid had just completed a robbery. He was confrontational towards the cop. He slammed the cop's car door in his face and tried to take his gun. The cop just did his job. And the witnesses lied. They insisted the kid was shot in the back, but every expert in the book clarified that there was no gunshot sound to the back. Even if these people did have a legit case, they shot themselves in the foot with this one by lying. Yet if a black person shot another black person, there wouldn't be a single witness. Right. These small US towns need to transfer the white cops somewhere else and hire more black cops. That's the closest thing to a solution they're ever going to find. Lethal force is unacceptable when there are alternatives, period. Let me just point out that it's a statistical fact that crime rates throughout the western world have been declining for decades. However, the number of incidents where police shoot innocents or kill culprits with no need has been rising for over 10 years. Police violence is one of the biggest threats to our democratic society right now. The way police violence is covered up 99 times out of 100 is a related threat that needs to be dealt with right now. |
| thomasquinn 32989 27.11.2014 07:05 |
YourValentine wrote: Whenever a policeman shoots a citizen into the face twice and there is no public trial there is something wrong with the justice system. Exactly. |
| brENsKi 27.11.2014 08:16 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote:1] you appear to ignore the fact that someone brandishing a gun - fake or otherwise - is not doing it for genuine reasons. it's 100% for ill intent. people waving fake guns around want others to believe it's real - that's the whole point of them.brENsKi wrote: Casper, what's your view on the incident near Cleveland of the young boy with the fake gun in the park?Another obvious case of an overly aggressive, needlessly violent response by the police. Video images released show that the cop did not give the boy a ghost of a chance to comply with any instructions like "drop the gun", but shot him almost as soon as he got out of the car. Passers-by are, also on the basis of the same video, utterly unimpressed by the boy with his fake gun. The person who reported the incident to the police, leading to this brutal response, mentioned IN HIS PHONECALL TO THE POLICE that the gun was probably fake. The policeman shot the boy from so close that he must have been able to see the gun was fake. Even if he didn't, he was close enough to use non-lethal fire. This is manslaughter at the least, but the two-bit cop will go unpunished, because being a policeman puts you above the law, as it has been since 9/11 at the latest. I have 0 respect left for the police. Policemen like this deserve to get shot up by gangs. EDIT: there is, of course, another issue here - toy guns have gotten waaaaaay too realistic. That's something the manufacturers need to address, but in our hysterical free market, they won't so long as the things sell well. So this needs to be addressed through legislation, I think. Still, if you see a 12-year-old in a park with a gun, your first assumption should not be that he is a hardened criminal looking to kill people. I seriously doubt this tragedy would have happened 50 years ago, even if the the gun had been fairly realistic. I work with children (ages 8-14 mostly) a lot, and I see an increasing intolerance of children and child-like behaviour by adults. That worries me deeply - children are increasingly expected to act like responsible adults from before they're 10. Even in my 'tolerant' country, The Netherlands, we've had about a dozen incidents the past three years of adults threatening schools with violence, and in one case an actual (fortunately non-lethal) attack, because the children are being "too loud" in the playground!!! 2] he was asked to raise his hands - but deliberately did the opposite. sometimes people who carry weapons - fake or otherwise have to be accountable for their own actions and the consequences. - live by the (fake) sword.... 3] as regards the Missouri shooting - there is no coverup - all the evidence has been made public domain - which i think was a sound approach to take. 4] blood spatter inside the patrol car? that seems like "clear and present danger" to me 5] if someone in a uniform with a gun tells you to stop and raise your hands - why would any law-abiding person then do otherwise? 6] rent-a-mob? what's all that about? why does a community go into meltdown in these situations? it helps nothing - no way was the mob all from outlying districts....many of those arrested were locals. you want to protest about this? sit down and refuse to move - and let the cameras film your quiet protest - don't go wrecking, rampaging and pillaging - all that does is cast every citizen in the same light |
| YourValentine 27.11.2014 10:24 |
Brensky, this policeman fired 12 shots, six bullets went into the body of Michael Brown, two went into his face. Do you really believe that this is an appropriate response for feeling attacked by an unarmed person? A policeman is not accuser, jury, judge and executioner in one person - even if the person stole a pack of cigars. This is not a crime punishable by death, neither is threatening a policeman a crime punishable by death. If a policeman is unable to arrest an unarmed person without shooting him dead he is in the wrong job. I am shocked about so many people thinking that a policeman has the right to kill a citizen if that citizen does not obey immediately to the commands of the policeman. This is not the law in a democracy. As a result of this common thinking cases like Cleveland happen: a 12 year old kid scared too much to react quick enough is shot dead by two adult policemen who do not give the child the slightest chance to survive. According to a piece in the NYT young black men are killed by policemen 21 times as often as white guys and murder is the most frequent cause of death for young black men. That is the background of the riots. If nothing changes more riots will happen, it is inevitable. If a part of society feel they are easy game for racist police forces they will fight back sooner or later - they really think they have nothing to lose. |
| brENsKi 27.11.2014 11:16 |
it's sooooooooooooooo easy to take the anti-police side isn't it? let's face some facts: 1] your "scared 12 yr old" was brave enough to pretend he had a gun and wave it about enough in a public place to cause alarm and distress to innocent bystanders. it's NEVER going to end happily for ANYONE who brandishes any kind of firearm in public - and so it shouldn't. 2] yes 12 shots maybe appear heavy handed - but the guy reached into the police car and assaulted the cop, and tried to attack him again after being shot once. tell me that if YOU had shot someone and they still came at you that YOU wouldn't be genuinely frightened? 3] i don't hear YOU or Casper condemning all of the [ahem] witness statements passing off bare-faced lies as evidence in order to frame the cop. whatever you consider to be wrong with the administration of law and order - there's 1,000% more wrong with people these days. in what kind of world is it right and proper to wave a gun around in public or assault cops? way i see it? if you don't do wrong then your chances of falling foul of the law are remote. and i know you're going to come down on me - but you know what? if there's a few less people waving guns about, then i for one won't weep over the loss of life. and while we're at it, leftie-liberals are as much a part of the problem. it's so easy to constantly whine on about what's wrong with law enforcement, and lament the breakdown of human rights...blah blah blah - how about these people start providing genuine solutions - and not ones that'll take years. if something's wrong it needs fixing now. lefties - it's time to put up or shut up. |
| The Real Wizard 27.11.2014 11:19 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Lethal force is unacceptable when there are alternatives, period. Let me just point out that it's a statistical fact that crime rates throughout the western world have been declining for decades. However, the number of incidents where police shoot innocents or kill culprits with no need has been rising for over 10 years. Police violence is one of the biggest threats to our democratic society right now. The way police violence is covered up 99 times out of 100 is a related threat that needs to be dealt with right now.I agree - it is an extremely big problem in the US. This would be funny if it weren't so true: ^ and that's before we get into the race issues. But the Ferguson MO case isn't one of these cases. It was a cop defending himself from someone attacking him after committing a crime. I'm not condoning what the cop did, but would this kid have reacted the same way if the cop was white? There is racism on both sides. This is going to get a lot worse before it gets better. If it gets better. |
| The Real Wizard 27.11.2014 11:22 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote:Agreed.YourValentine wrote: Whenever a policeman shoots a citizen into the face twice and there is no public trial there is something wrong with the justice system.Exactly. However - the evidence is all there, and the correct decision was made in this case. Legally speaking. Making a trial like this public in such a racially charged atmosphere just isn't in public interest. What we're seeing on the streets of Ferguson would've been happening before the end result was read out, not just after. Either way, this is the result. No matter what the process was or wasn't, American society is worse this week than the last. And guys like Al Sharpton just aren't helping. He thinks his race baiting is doing a public service, but it's only creating a wider divide between races. What a mess that country is. |
| YourValentine 27.11.2014 14:07 |
@ Brenski - you mix up two cases, I am afraid I did the same. I do not see it at a crime when a 12 year old kid waves around a toy gun although I think toys which can be mistaken for real should not even exist. In the Cleveland case it may be early to judge but the caller who alerted the cops on the phone said he thought it's a fake gun. From the video we can see that the cops fired with no warning immediately after jumping out of the car. I do not know about you but when two policemen jumped out of a car aiming at me with fire arms I would possibly freeze and not being able to move at all. For heavens sake: it was 2 adults with guns against a 12 year old child with a toy - how can anybody not see the wrong here and blame the dead child? @ Bob - you say that a trial was not on in the Ferguson case because the atmosphere was so heated. In a democracy there has to be ALWAYS a trial no matter what the circumstances are. You cannot abandon the rule of law because it's not convenient. If the policeman had stood trial and the evidence and witnesses would have shown that it was an act of self defense it would have been self defense and the people would have had the chance to hear the evidence and witnesses. In this case, however, the DA left it to the (majorly white) jury to decide if charges were filed and the procedure was behind closed doors. It's not okay that the DA switches the rules to protect a police officer - it does not do any good to the police officer and to the community. Fair, open and PUBLIC trial is the only way to uphold the rule of law and the rules must apply for everybody. If that is not the case people will lose trust in the system. |
| brENsKi 27.11.2014 16:48 |
YourValentine wrote: @ Brenski - you mix up two cases, I am afraid I did the same. I do not see it at a crime when a 12 year old kid waves around a toy gun although I think toys which can be mistaken for real should not even exist. In the Cleveland case it may be early to judge but the caller who alerted the cops on the phone said he thought it's a fake gun. From the video we can see that the cops fired with no warning immediately after jumping out of the car. I do not know about you but when two policemen jumped out of a car aiming at me with fire arms I would possibly freeze and not being able to move at all. For heavens sake: it was 2 adults with guns against a 12 year old child with a toy - how can anybody not see the wrong here and blame the dead child?1] i do not confuse two cases - i asked earlier in this thread for Casper's opinion on the cleveland case - so i brought this to the table 2] did you see the "toy" you refer to? that thing was designed to be convincing - we all know the purpose of these "fakes" - they fool enough store owners who get robbed - so even close up they must look realistic enough 3] 2 adults against a child? really??? sorry - if you're going to carry something that looks like the real thing - then you deserve to be treated like you are carrying the real thing for a purpose. like i said, i have no sympathies - people carry knives and guns with only ill-intent - because children can't be evil, mad, dangerous, murderous can they? sometimes the "blame the authorities" hand-wringing really achieves nothing. Fact is, I'd much much much rather one idiot "child" or adult carrying a "fake" or real gun is killed by police than run the risk of several innocent civilians get mown down by a lunatic with a gun. what happens when these loonies do use the guns? the lefties are the first to ask "where were the police" and "why didn't the police stop him - by any means" police are in a no-win situation - and i guarantee that every single do-gooder is more than qualified to criticse but could NEVER do their job? ever heard the expression "walk a mile in his shoes" ? try it, then you're qualified to speak out. some evidence to warm the cockles of your leftie hearts: ++++++++++++++ 1] On June 1, 2004, an 11-year-old schoolgirl, best known as "Girl A"(*), murdered her 12-year-old classmate, Satomi Mitarai, in an empty classroom during lunch at an elementary school in Japan. 2] On February 20, 2009, 11-year-old Jordan Brown killed his father's fiancée, Kenzie Marie Houk, 26, in Wampum, Pennsylvania. Houk, 8 1/2 months pregnant, was shot in the back of the head with Brown's .20-gauge youth model shotgun while lying in bed. 3] On April 22, 2006, when Jasmine Richards was just 12, she and her boyfriend murdered her parents and younger brother in their home in Medicine Hat, Alberta, Canada. Richards' parents didn't approve of her relationship with 23-year-old Jeremy Steinke. 4] A boy in Sao Paulo, Brazil, was accused of killing his police officer parents, his grandmother and great-aunt before spending a full day at school and then taking his own life. Police believe 13-year-old Marcelo Pesseghini shot each victim in the head with a .40 caliber pistol. Police sergeant Luiz Marcelo Pesseghini, 40, wife Andreia Regina, 36, grandmother Benedita, 65, and great-aunt Bernadete, 55, were all killed in bed. 5] In 2011,13-year-old Cristian Fernandez was charged with first-degree murder after the beating death of his 2-year-old half-brother. He was also charged with the sexual abuse of his 5-year-old half-brother. 6] 40-year-old Terry King, was murdered by his own children, Alex, 12, and Derek, 13. Derek waited until his father fell asleep then bashed him ten times on the head and face with an aluminum baseball bat. The boys then set fire to the house to try to conceal the crime. |
| The Real Wizard 27.11.2014 22:33 |
YourValentine wrote: @ Bob - you say that a trial was not on in the Ferguson case because the atmosphere was so heated. In a democracy there has to be ALWAYS a trial no matter what the circumstances are. You cannot abandon the rule of law because it's not convenient. If the policeman had stood trial and the evidence and witnesses would have shown that it was an act of self defense it would have been self defense and the people would have had the chance to hear the evidence and witnesses. In this case, however, the DA left it to the (majorly white) jury to decide if charges were filed and the procedure was behind closed doors. It's not okay that the DA switches the rules to protect a police officer - it does not do any good to the police officer and to the community. Fair, open and PUBLIC trial is the only way to uphold the rule of law and the rules must apply for everybody. If that is not the case people will lose trust in the system.Of course you're right. That's how it works in the civilized world. But this is the US... |
| YourValentine 28.11.2014 03:08 |
@ Brenski - of course there are terrible things in this world and sometimes children will kill people, although it is very rare. This does not justify killing a child carrying a TOY gun without any warning and without giving the child the chance to surrender. The boy could not possibly kill two adults with a toy gun, could he? The two policemen make themselves look like scared, frightened cowards, maybe hardcore xenophobes who think that any black child is in fact a monster. But of of course they live in their society where violence is often the only answer and gun killings are more common than anywhere else in the world but that must be changed for the sake of social peace. For your information, I am not a "leftie" whatever that is supposed to mean. I am a human rights acitivist and I am getting used to be called "gooddoer", even "tree-hugger" etc. I find it strange that people of the other spectrum of the discussion are always the ones who resort to name-calling and personal insults. That makes it so hard to have a civilized discussion. I am not "anti-American", either - many Americans do share my views and support me when it comes to human rights violations in Europe and Germany. @ Bob - thank you :-) |
| YourValentine 28.11.2014 03:22 |
brENsKi wrote: like i said, i have no sympathies - people carry knives and guns with only ill-intent - because children can't be evil, mad, dangerous, murderous can they? sometimes the "blame the authorities" hand-wringing really achieves nothing. Fact is, I'd much much much rather one idiot "child" or adult carrying a "fake" or real gun is killed by police than run the risk of several innocent civilians get mown down by a lunatic with a gun. what happens when these loonies do use the guns? the lefties are the first to ask "where were the police" and "why didn't the police stop him - by any means"First of all - you would probaly think different if it were YOUR child killed by the police. Secondly, this happens all the time: people feeling scared of other people shoot them like rabbits in order to protect their property or themselves from alleged or real attacks. You do not want to tell me that so-called "do-gooders" are responsible for such a social fabric? People who want health care, education, jobs and respect for everybody are not the problem, believe me. A 12 year old human being is a child and not a "child" in any civilized country. |
| thomasquinn 32989 28.11.2014 03:41 |
I find the way brenski is 'discussing' here utterly distasteful. I am not going to dignify his law-and-order-at-the-cost-of-anything crap with any further response aside from saying that if you expect a 12-year-old to fully understand the implications of carrying a toy gun that is considered 'too realistic', then you are living in a psychotic fantasy. A 12-year-old is a child. Children are not considered adults for a reason. Use your mental faculties to fill in the blanks. |
| brENsKi 28.11.2014 07:35 |
my point - which BOTH yourself and Casper gloss over:: if you carry a gun - there will always be consequences. the parents of the child should look at themselves - NOT the law enforcement. there is no excuse for blaming the cops this article: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/11/24/us/boy-12-dies-after-being-shot-by-cleveland-police-officer.html?_r=0 tries its level best to blame the cops - but the closing paragraph is the most telling The police learned that the gun was fake after the shooting, Ms. Ciaccia said. The weapon was an “airsoft” replica gun resembling a semiautomatic pistol, with the orange safety tip removed, the police said. just ask ONE question? why would someone remove the ONE characteristic that identifies the gun as fake? simple: - the "child" in question preferred it that people believed it to be real. therefore, for all intents and purposes this child was in possession of a real gun. and, as it's not legal to do so until the age of 21 for handguns, then, by consequence he was behaving and parading himself as a grown up. and for the last time - i am NOT on the side of cops, i'm on the side of the facts. amazing how BOTH Barb and Casper repeatedly attack people that don't see their viewpoint. i think you would both feel dramatically differently if some child with a gun shot and killed one of your nearest and dearest. And Casper, I find your tone patronizing and insulting. I have already explained my own personal view of cops in the past on this very site. In particular, living in Birmingham in the 1970s and my Irish dad being locked up for two days while west midlands police systematically rounded up, and afforded their sporting hospitality to every Irish guy in the city after the pub bombings. The difference between you and i Casper? I am capable of looking at this situation objectively despite my own previous experience. Your own views will never be changed - because you refuse point-blank to see anything that contradicts your own views of society as a whole. One final consideration, The things wrong with society as a whole are not responsible for the deaths of these latest individuals, and we should not be portraying them as victims. These are hugely different events to Rodney King and similar cases. In BOTH these latest cases the cops are also victims. we should not forget that.. |
| Doga 28.11.2014 09:59 |
I'm going to say what i think. Both sides are right this time, is a real shame a policeman killed a boy with a fake gun, but also, in a dangerous country like USA, these policemen have to face a lot of dangerous situations, putting their lifes in danger. Is not a better solution don't let people but weapons in the first place? Countries where the access to weapons is harder are safer, then why let everyone buy all the fireweapons they want? |
| The Real Wizard 28.11.2014 10:51 |
Doga wrote: Is not a better solution don't let people but weapons in the first place? Countries where the access to weapons is harder are safer, then why let everyone buy all the fireweapons they want?Yes. Anyone raised in a remotely civilized manner would agree with you. But this will never, ever happen in the US. For three reasons: 1) N. 2) R. 3) A. They are one of the strongest lobbies in Washington. If less guns are sold, their profits will plummet. Greed is the primary reason why 30,000 Americans are killed by guns every year. And what's even more unbelievable is a solid 1/3 of the country will stand by their right to own a gun regardless of frivolous things like "facts" and "data" - things like how a gun is 43x more likely to kill a family member or a friend before an intruder in the home. A friend of mine's brother recently shot and killed himself with his father's gun. The gun was soon confiscated by police so they could analyze it, but the next day the father was already asking, "Where's my gun?" I wish I was making that up. |
| noorie 29.11.2014 10:35 |
The Real Wizard wrote: A friend of mine's brother recently shot and killed himself with his father's gun. The gun was soon confiscated by police so they could analyze it, but the next day the father was already asking, "Where's my gun?" I wish I was making that up.That is just terrible! But on the subject of cops, I feel that just like with everything else, there are good cops and bad cops. We have great lawyers as well as shysters, honest politicians as well as corrupt ones... same with cops. Some will be trigger happy, but most are really decent and try to do their job as well as they can. And believe me, if any of us is ever being threatened or in any danger (hopefully never), we will be screaming for a cop to come help first thing! |
| The Real Wizard 29.11.2014 11:21 |
^ this. Anti-cop people are just as bad as the gun nuts, just on the other end. |
| thomasquinn 32989 29.11.2014 12:07 |
Often, it is not a matter of being corrupt, malicious or anything like that, even though that is a problem too (nearly 30% of all drugs confiscated by police in the Netherlands 'disappears' between the time it is checked into the administration and their destruction by incineration). Far more often, it's sheer incompetence - a problem not limited to policemen but rampant throughout society, but all the more dramatic when the incompetent person is authorized to use lethal force. Many policemen do not train in the details of their professional gun-use anywhere near the perscribed amount of time. Inadequate skill combined with panicky reactions can lead to incidents like the New York City one where the police shot several innocent people in trying to stop ONE person with a KNIFE. |
| The Real Wizard 29.11.2014 16:44 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Far more often, it's sheer incompetence - a problem not limited to policemen but rampant throughout society, but all the more dramatic when the incompetent person is authorized to use lethal force.This is what happens when buffoons get promoted to positions where they hire people. These HR people tend not to be out in the work force interacting with people, as this is generally left for those with consistently good people skills and decision making mechanisms (although obviously not always). Why don't these people get fired to begin with? That's something I'll never understand. Unions ensure people have decent wages and benefits, but many have also become so strong to the point of protecting jobs held by incompetent morons. Life is complicated. |
| YourValentine 01.12.2014 05:34 |
Brenski, I did not attack you, I attack - if anything - your opinion. I did not call you any names and did not categorize you as anything. This is really important for me. Of course I would feel very revengeful if a child killed someone near to me but this child did not kill somebody and did not carry a lethal weapon, he was carrying a toy gun and the caller who alerted the police pointed out that he thought the gun was "fake". What is also different between my country and the USA: the murder rate here is only a tiny fraction of the one in the USA and we have gun laws. We would find it absurd to allow every civilian to carry a gun and then be paranoid about the people who actually carry guns, it makes no sense. However, we do have racism and it is far spread but the country refuses to discuss this in the open making it worse all the time. Non-native Germans are far more likely to be killed by violence, they are also far poorer. If we do not solve poverty related crimes we will leave the field of discussion to the Wilders, Le Pens and Farages. |
| brENsKi 01.12.2014 08:22 |
yes, and the "orange safety clip" which is used to identify these "fakes" had been deliberately removed...so how the fuck were the police to know? just stop and think about the situation: they act to remove a perceived threat and they're damned, they don't act and someone gets killed? - they're damned again. time people stopped blaming the police and started blaming the perpetrator or the parents who allow their children to possess things this realistic |
| thomasquinn 32989 01.12.2014 08:27 |
And all the while, you ignore how the passers-by were utterly unimpressed, as is demonstrated by the released video footage. Also, the cop didn't give the child more than about 3 seconds to comply with any order he might or might not have given before opening fire. Finally, he shot him from so close that a non-lethal shot, to the arm for instance, as cops are trained to do, would've been perfectly possible. Yet you choose to take the cynical The-Cops-Are-Always-Right approach, just as you took the Israel-Is-Not-Responsible-For-The-Palestinians-They-Murder-Hamas-Is line. |
| brENsKi 01.12.2014 11:37 |
edit dbl post - qzone server f**ked up |
| brENsKi 01.12.2014 11:40 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Yet you choose to take the cynical The-Cops-Are-Always-Right approach, just as you took the Israel-Is-Not-Responsible-For-The-Palestinians-They-Murder-Hamas-Is line. which bit of my previous post DID YOU NOT read? i've already clearly stated my own previous experience with constabulary - and seeing what happened to my father wasn't nice - which would give me EVERY reason to hate cops - or at least be anti-cop. so Casper, it's time you stop globalising everything and stating i have said "cops are always right" - far from it. I have said that in these two instances i believe the cops are right. any chance you'll now retract your attempts at putting words in my mouth? an apology would be nice - if unlikely. it's a good job YOU are not on any of the internal/external enquiries convened in these cases...because there'd be NO fair trial at your hands. and the last resort of the desperate - you bring up an previous argument - where again YOU put words in my mouth. i never said Israel wasn't wrong - i said they were in the right in that instance. there's little point trying to discuss anything with you - you actually see words and meanings that aren't there. for the last fucking time Casper - NOWHERE have i said/,meant/typed any of the things you state i have. all i have ever said is - IN THIS INSTANCE. now if you really are the intelligent grown up you claim to be - then be big enough to admit you have put words in my mouth, and apologise for it...or is that just not possible ? |
| magicalfreddiemercury 01.12.2014 13:52 |
Everyone should read through this thread and note the miscommunications, the animosity, arrogance, name-calling, finger-pointing and attempts to deflect, defend and/or diffuse. You should then imagine the frustration caused by it all and multiply that frustration tens of times. The result will be only a small hint of the real-world, life and death conflicts festering between minorities and law enforcement. No wonder tensions are so high. |
| *goodco* 02.12.2014 11:46 |
A very interesting article regarding the history of Ferguson (not listed on its wiki page of course) link The parts regarding the creation of the town of Kinloch, and the 'sundown laws', are two bits that never found their way into my school history books. Now I better understand the resentment. This country is still dealing with some of the idiotic BS set up decades ago by those who love 'the land of the free'. But I'm not going to write a 20 page dissertation regarding the incident, the prosecutor's 0-for-5 record in these situations, the time of the announcement, the following violence, or the illegal and dangerous protests that blocked major thoroughfares. |
| The Real Wizard 02.12.2014 14:04 |
*goodco* wrote: The parts regarding the creation of the town of Kinloch, and the 'sundown laws', are two bits that never found their way into my school history books.History books in US schools with edits and omissions? Well, colour me shocked.. The same place that publishes books claiming Pearl Harbour was unprovoked and that the US won the war all by themselves.. |
| *goodco* 02.12.2014 15:22 |
But we did, Bob, we did;-) |
| pittrek 04.12.2014 07:22 |
Does anybody know if this is real or fake? link |
| The Real Wizard 04.12.2014 10:25 |
pittrek wrote: Does anybody know if this is real or fake? linkProbably real. I just can't begin to list the number of things wrong with that picture. While it's obviously true that nobody should die for committing a robbery, this almost suggests condoning the act as if there should be some kind of implied impunity. |
| greaserkat 05.12.2014 10:04 |
Well, then there is this. For those of you that don't know, another black man killed by a white police officer. This time, the whole thing was caught on camera. The officer was not indicted, but the man who filmed the whole thing was. I wonder now, what does a police office have to do in order to be held responsible for their actions because they are obviously getting away with murder... link |
| Mr.Jingles 05.12.2014 12:58 |
I don't understand why Michael Brown and Eric Garner are being focused on by the media in the same way. Similar incidents, two very different reactions from the individuals. Michael Brown showed aggression towards the police officer and very likely tried to reach for his gun before running away, and then getting shot. Is it possible that the police overreacted and panicked by firing more shots than necessary? Yes. However, none of this would have happened had Michael Brown not resisted arrest. Whether he had his hand up in the air or not after running away, it's up to debate. Eric Garner on the other hand was unarmed, and he may have had a previous criminal record, but there was no proof to charge him other than suspicion. Garner never posed a physical threat during his encounter with the police officers, and tried to talk his way out of the incident in a civil manner. Then in front of a camera he was forced on the ground, put on a chokehold (which has been banned by the means of physical force by the NYPD), and apparently left unconscious on the ground for several minutes before an ambulance arrived. |
| The Real Wizard 05.12.2014 16:21 |
Not only that, but paramedics showed up and apparently did nothing for five minutes. link There's just no calling the US a civilized country anymore. |
| thomasquinn 32989 06.12.2014 02:57 |
I came into this discussion considering police brutality a far more significant issue than racial profiling. It seems I was far too optimistic about the US heartland. It looks increasingly like they've taken over the position of the Old South before 1965. All that's missing now is a few confederate flags and some white sheets - I wouldn't be surprised if the informal "White Citizens' Councils" already exist, again... BTW, Bob - returning to an earlier remark you made: "The same place that publishes books claiming Pearl Harbour was unprovoked". I'd like to hear how exactly you feel Pearl Harbor was provoked? I see that particular subject differently. |
| The Real Wizard 09.12.2014 12:36 |
Wasn't the US sending weapons to China in the late 30s and early 40s, which pissed off the Japanese since they had tensions with China? |
| The Real Wizard 09.12.2014 13:19 |
link According to MSNBC (which tends to swing extremely and often unnecessarily left), the assistant DA presented an outdated law (declared unconstitutional in 1985) to the jury to aid them in their decision in this case, claiming that it was legal for an officer in Missouri to shoot a fleeing suspect. Is there any actual truth to this? If so, then we've got ourselves an even bigger mess. |
| YourValentine 10.12.2014 03:32 |
Here is another case. link The victim was unarmed and harming nobody. The police officer fired but did not call for an ambulance. He is described as a "rookie" patrolling with his gun drawn. This is so unreal, it's hard to imagine. |
| YourValentine 10.12.2014 03:53 |
And yet another one: link |
| Holly2003 11.12.2014 11:54 |
. |
| Holly2003 11.12.2014 11:54 |
Spot the difference between UK and US cops: link |
| thomasquinn 32989 13.12.2014 13:10 |
pittrek wrote: Does anybody know if this is real or fake? http://vara.gulas.sme.sk/upload/posts/5/74/74695/large_extra/26e931b5dd127c86844f53e943b14ee0.jpg . It's a fake. http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/fergusonsign.asp Although the above-displayed photograph does depict three protesters standing outside a fire department in Ferguson, Missouri, the wording on the sign has been altered. The original photograph was taken by Mitch Ryals and was published in the Riverfront Times on 1 October 2014; it documents the message on the sign carried by the center protester actually read: "No mother should have to fear for her son's life every time he leaves home": |
| thomasquinn 32989 13.12.2014 13:12 |
Holly2003 wrote: Spot the difference between UK and US cops: link .Now THAT was some great work by the police! |
