Machines or back to Machines 16.11.2014 07:36 |
As they always played live it in D major, i was wondering if anyone had any backstory on if the studio version was sped up? |
The Real Wizard 16.11.2014 13:33 |
Great question. It wouldn't surprise me. Brian played around with tape speed from day one to the end, from the guitar orchestras in Son And Daughter to the overall playback of No-One But You. Page pulled the same tricks all over the Zeppelin catalogue too. It's probably where he got the ideas from. |
matt z 16.11.2014 15:28 |
The drum roll always sounded like warped tape wound forward. Being how it was their sort of answer back to punk maybe they were mocking the music style. The words suggest it. Either that or a more articulate description of angst. I used to think the solo was either feedback or played far beyond the neck of the guitar, It's possible with either a steel slide (like Morello uses) basically tapping the notes or also ifyou're crazy enough to lower the action and play bend notes using the covers of your pick ups as a fretboard. Unique thing. But later it made sense that he'd played the solo and pitch shifted it/sped it up (whatever was used to that end at the time) .... so. .. basically nobody knows? |
cmsdrums 17.11.2014 06:31 |
I hadn't considered the drum fill being sped up, and had just assumed it was an intentional 'phase' effect. Interesting post because now you mention it the whole song does have a 'sped up' feel. |
Machines or back to Machines 17.11.2014 07:03 |
plus roger wouldn't write a guitar based song like that in Eb. |
Bohardy 18.11.2014 12:28 |
Undoubtedly it was played in D and sped up a smidgen under a semitone. As has been said, Rog is unlikely to have written it in Eb, and it has always been played live in D, which seems pretty conclusive on its own. Add to this the fact that this is exactly the kind of song where a slight speeding up of the original recording might improve the feel of the song, and that in the chorus you can clearly hear the open strings of the G5 chord rather than the fretted strings of an Ab5, and I'd say the evidence is overwhelming. Whether Fred sang against the original version or the sped-up version is another question, though I'd imagine it's the former, given that he sounds almost unrecognisable on this song (although this is mostly due to his delivery rather than any tape manipulation). Hopefully someone can be bothered with slowing the whole song down a semitone and posting the result here. |
matt z 18.11.2014 16:31 |
Makes sense. I didn't think of hearing that G - Ab. It'd definitely be a tricky one to fret but not impossible especially Brian's big hands. Anyways. They did it almost a semitone with AOBTD as well. |
Machines or back to Machines 19.11.2014 03:06 |
cheers guys I agree it was indeed sped up! |
Mr.QueenFan 19.11.2014 14:50 |
This is all very interesting. What i do know about the NOTW sessions is that Brian admited to speeding up the tape to the orchestrated guitar solo of "All dead, all dead" to achieve the right pitch - that was out of his guitar fret board. Maybe he experimented that on other songs as well. But now that you mention this, the song really has that "feel", and now it makes more sense why we can't tell Roger's voice from Freddie's. Maybe Roger's voice was speeded up as well. |
ludwigs 20.11.2014 04:37 |
Mr.QueenFan wrote: This is all very interesting. What i do know about the NOTW sessions is that Brian admited to speeding up the tape to the orchestrated guitar solo of "All dead, all dead" to achieve the right pitch - that was out of his guitar fret board. Maybe he experimented that on other songs as well.Brian did 'pitch up' some of the guitar voices by an octave. This adds that 'organ' effect to the orchestrations. He has used this method on 'Lily of the Valley' and also the bell-type 2 guitar thing on the start of the 3rd verse in '39. 'Son and Daughter' also has it.(as mentioned by The Real Wonka ;-) ) I'm sure that certain vocals were also 'upped' and 'lowered' too. 'Lap of the Gods' and 'Bring Back Leroy Brown' to name just 2 examples. Here you can see/hear from my recording (transcription of the piece) how this effect added to the existing normally-pitched section: link |
tomchristie22 20.11.2014 06:43 |
The Real Wizard wrote: Brian played around with tape speed from day one to the end, from the guitar orchestras in Son And Daughter to the overall playback of No-One But You.I didn't know that about No-One But You - how much is it altered by? I'd like to listen to it at the original pitch and tempo. |
tomchristie22 20.11.2014 06:56 |
Here is Sheer Heart Attack slowed down so it's in D (technically a fraction lower than D, as I just went a semitone down from the original). I'm not sure if it sounds more natural or not. http://clyp.it/t5iplwru Also, when on earth does Roger sing lead vocals on this song? Does he actually sing them at all? Because I've read that he sings the second verse, but I swear it's Freddie the whole way through. |
Adam Baboolal 21.11.2014 07:45 |
@tomchristie22 The story I'd always heard about the pitch thing came from Brian/Roger. Basically, Roger heard Brian's demo and liked it, but changed the tempo which also altered the pitch. So, it wasn't Brian playing with pitch at all. |
The Real Wizard 21.11.2014 13:40 |
matt z wrote: Makes sense. I didn't think of hearing that G - Ab. It'd definitely be a tricky one to fret but not impossible especially Brian's big hands.Yeah, but most guitar players just don't play like that. Bohardy is absolutely spot on. |
The Real Wizard 21.11.2014 13:45 |
ludwigs wrote: Here you can see/hear from my recording (transcription of the piece) how this effect added to the existing normally-pitched section: linkGENIUS. You are one of a handful of people in the world who has this stuff figured out. Bloody well done. There's a similar video of the original studio tapes of Page layering the guitars in the middle of Ten Years Gone. But you've actually gone through the trouble to dissect it all and replicated it to complete perfection. You should be writing a column in the top guitar magazines about achieving Brian's studio sound. Contact them. Seriously. Nobody has done it. You're the guy. |
The Real Wizard 21.11.2014 14:07 |
tomchristie22 wrote:Maybe a quarter tone? As always, Bri's vocal may be sped up or he recorded it to the pitched up version..The Real Wizard wrote: Brian played around with tape speed from day one to the end, from the guitar orchestras in Son And Daughter to the overall playback of No-One But You.I didn't know that about No-One But You - how much is it altered by? I'd like to listen to it at the original pitch and tempo. tomchristie22 wrote: Also, when on earth does Roger sing lead vocals on this song? Does he actually sing them at all? Because I've read that he sings the second verse, but I swear it's Freddie the whole way through.I think it's both of them in the second verse ? |
ludwigs 21.11.2014 14:40 |
The Real Wizard wrote: GENIUS. You are one of a handful of people in the world who has this stuff figured out. Bloody well done. There's a similar video of the original studio tapes of Page layering the guitars in the middle of Ten Years Gone. But you've actually gone through the trouble to dissect it all and replicated it to complete perfection. You should be writing a column in the top guitar magazines about achieving Brian's studio sound. Contact them. Seriously. Nobody has done it. You're the guy.Wow!!! That's some very high praise. Thanks a lot. I do these pieces for my own sense of achievement and recording replication. I also want to do everything - vox, drums etc etc.... I post them up to offer some help to others so that they too can play them. I don't enter into the whole You tube offering any monies etc. I just do it to help cause I know what it's like wanting to learn something - and I think the current medium allows quicker learning than endless hours reading books or trying to suss it all out.(Most of the official transcribed stuff I've seen also has glaring errors re: notes etc.) I want to do all the massive orchestrations and breakdowns cause it's a bloody hard task but....I guess I'm a sucker for punishment?? I do continue to work on loads of stuff and there are many more video lessons in the offing. I do appreciate your kind words. thanks again!! ps: I just don't understand how many more people get so many hits?? Maybe I should type "sexy girl guitarist plays Queen"?? |
Mr.QueenFan 21.11.2014 14:50 |
ludwigs wrote:You know, i don't usually get excited when fans play Brian May, but i have to tell you, you achieved something very special here. This surprassed all expectations i might have. Wonderful playing, and you really achieved THE Brian May tone on this song.Mr.QueenFan wrote: This is all very interesting. What i do know about the NOTW sessions is that Brian admited to speeding up the tape to the orchestrated guitar solo of "All dead, all dead" to achieve the right pitch - that was out of his guitar fret board. Maybe he experimented that on other songs as well.Brian did 'pitch up' some of the guitar voices by an octave. This adds that 'organ' effect to the orchestrations. (...) Here you can see/hear from my recording (transcription of the piece) how this effect added to the existing normally-pitched section: link You have everything a musician needs to succeed - Passion, and a good set of hears! ------------------------------------------ It's interesting that you mention the 'organ' effect, because i always thought that Brian was trying to achieve the "Orchestra" effect (i.e. violins playing together), but the organ effect is closer to what he achieved. One of the best orchastrations made by Brian. Thanks for you video. |
The Real Wizard 21.11.2014 17:44 |
ludwigs wrote: ps: I just don't understand how many more people get so many hits?? Maybe I should type "sexy girl guitarist plays Queen"??Yup, you're on the right track. link ^ over 328,000 likes, and 12 million views on her youtube channel. Other than these youtube videos, she has done just about nothing. Is she a musician or a porn star? Her facebook is basically an infomercial for her body. If she's smart, she's bringing in a ton of ad revenue. Hell, there's a woman who quit her job as a teacher to be a professional twerker. Welcome to the world in 2014. link |
Sebastian 27.11.2014 23:58 |
As for Roger singing 'lead' on SHA, he does the odd bits here and there (e.g., '-ticulate'), but whether that constitutes proper 'lead' vocal is open to debate. |
tomchristie22 28.11.2014 00:17 |
Fair enough. I'd describe any interjection like that as a lead vocal, if they are indeed singing lead for that moment. e.g. Roger's line in The March of the Black Queen. Of course, Freddie's still the lead vocalist for the song as a whole. |
Sebastian 28.11.2014 00:19 |
It's indeed not a black and white topic... what do you think about The Edge's vocals on 'Sunday Bloody Sunday'? Or Roger's on the studio version of 'Action'? |
tomchristie22 28.11.2014 00:32 |
I suppose in cases where it's more evenly split, I'd be inclined to just call it a shared lead vocal. Same for Freddie and David Bowie on Under Pressure. |
Sebastian 28.11.2014 00:54 |
I've been giving that some thought lately... in art music (e.g., classical, baroque), the solo-tutti distinction tends to be used; in popular music (rock, pop, blues...) categories tend to be lead/backing. 'Life Is Real' and 'Love of My Life' are easy cases, as Freddie's 'main' part is both a lead vocal and a soloist, and his choir can be labelled both backing vocals and tutti (since they're multi-tracked). Other cases are a bit stranger ... on 'Action This Day' (studio version), Freddie's the only one singing 'solo'. Every time Roger sings, he's 'tutti' (multi-part and multi-tracked). If we apply the 'art' labelling, Freddie's singing the (tenor) solo part and Roger's doing an ATB choir. 'Play the Game' is interesting: most of the verses constitute both a lead vocal and a soloist ... even when he's harmonised (it can count as solo + tutti, as the harmonies are multi-tracked). But what about the middle-eight? 'My game of love has just begun' is double-tracked, and then 'love runs from my head down to my toes' (are those the right lyrics? I'm typing by memory) is a multi-part multi-tracked 'tutti'. If we count the middle part as the 'lead', then we could say that both Roger and Brian are possibly co-lead vocalists on the song, since for that particular line they're probably singing every part with Fred... in fact, even Andy Gibb could be (ghost) singing there! Last but not least, 'Sleeping on the Sidewalk': Brian's 'lead' is also clearly a 'solo', but when he's harmonised, those 'backing vocals' are single-tracked. Therefore, we could count him as lead + backing vocalist on the one hand and as a three-part soloist (TTB) on the other. |
The Real Wizard 28.11.2014 02:37 |
Sebastian - excellent as always. Drop me an email :) |
Machines or back to Machines 28.11.2014 06:29 |
lol completely gone off the subject now |
tomchristie22 28.11.2014 06:33 |
Very interesting. I do enjoy your depth analysis of vocal stuff. Tutti Frutti, as performed on the Magic tour, is tutti almost for its entirety! Fitting. |
Sebastian 28.11.2014 08:00 |
Probably the heart of the matter relies on whether there could be backing vocals *without* a lead one. IMO, yes, from single-part single-tracked (e.g., 'turn around' from the original Total Eclipse of the Heart, just to name a non-Queen case) to multi-part multi-tracked (e.g., 'and then he sang to her' from 'The Golden Boy'). Then again, that's open to debate... Also ... harmonies and backing vocals aren't necessarily the same, although the concepts often overlap and a lot of people use them interchangeably, which still doesn't mean they're right... |
The King Of Rhye 28.11.2014 10:20 |
Sebastian wrote: Other cases are a bit stranger ... on 'Action This Day' (studio version), Freddie's the only one singing 'solo'. Every time Roger sings, he's 'tutti' (multi-part and multi-tracked). If we apply the 'art' labelling, Freddie's singing the (tenor) solo part and Roger's doing an ATB choir. .Then there's the live versions......particularly the one on the 2011 Hot Space 'bonus ep'.......that's pretty much alternating lead vocals by Freddie and Roger.............(I always enjoy hearing Roger sing in a Queen show....great voice) |
Sebastian 28.11.2014 15:29 |
Yeah, obviously, live versions are a different story. Also for other songs... for instance, Roger's the one who's actually singing lead on the WAtC choruses most of the time. Fred switches to a lower harmony (top voice doesn't necessarily equate lead, but on that particular arrangement, it did). |
Bike It 80 09.09.2015 23:12 |
matt z wrote: The drum roll always sounded like warped tape wound forward.In fact the drum roll is speeding up in the right channel and slowing down in the left channel. matt z wrote: I used to think the solo was either feedback or played far beyond the neck of the guitar, It's possible with either a steel slide (like Morello uses) basically tapping the notes or also ifyou're crazy enough to lower the action and play bend notes using the covers of your pick ups as a fretboard. Unique thing. But later it made sense that he'd played the solo and pitch shifted it/sped it up (whatever was used to that end at the time) .... so. .. basically nobody knows?To me, the solo always sounded like feedback from a microphone, like when you put it too close to the speaker it's fed into and you move the mic around a bit. |
ludwigs 10.09.2015 08:25 |
I assumed it was the guitar being held close to the Deacy amp. Anyone with a KAT replica - try it. The small speaker allows it to squeal similarly. |