| tomchristie22 02.11.2014 03:14 |
Download link (pdf) (last updated November 4th 2014): https://mega.co.nz/#!90RjhAzB!ay4pF_2LjiV4padWS9YGx5Xy8wzOGtlxvSDc8u2Jr8o I've listened through the 2014 releases of both the March and combined November concerts, and examined the songs in comparison to what's available on previous bootlegs and other releases. This is just something I wanted to do - If it's helpful to anyone, that'll be a great bonus. I reached more useful conclusions on the March concert than the November ones, as it's much easier to determine if something's an overdub, pitch corrected, etc. when there was only one night played, thus only one possible 'accurate' version. The fact that we know very little of what comes from what night in the November concerts made it very difficult to conclude many specifics, but I think it's worth a read nonetheless. There are summaries for the differences in each song, for those who don't want to read about discrepancies in the smaller details. |
| Nitroboy 02.11.2014 04:47 |
Interesting read, thanks for the writing :) |
| GinjaNinja 02.11.2014 08:28 |
Really enjoyed that, excellent work. I watched the first night at the SiS exhibition but I'm afraid I can't remember any specifics about it. However, there should be a (silent) video I recorded of Flick Of The Wrist from the first night somewhere on this forum, which might be helpful for analysis. Also, it seems that they (at least for the main part of the set) had the "Queen" sign up behind them only on the first night, so that could also help to identify which nights the songs are from. |
| KumoNin 02.11.2014 08:42 |
It may have been worth noting that some notable, ear-piercing guitar feedback had been removed for 2014 at the beginning of March Ogre Battle... |
| Ale Solan 02.11.2014 08:50 |
Excellent work Tom! kudos to you! ;) |
| Oscar J 02.11.2014 10:03 |
Wow, great job! The line "You said you'd equal any man for having your fun" from S&D (March) has been fixed too, as the word "fun" was extremely pitchy in the original. |
| DepeX 02.11.2014 11:52 |
Great work! Thanks mate |
| The Real Wizard 02.11.2014 12:26 |
Oh man, this is gonna be good. Looking forward to it ! |
| LucasDiego 02.11.2014 13:14 |
Excellen text, rainbow is a excellent release, but there are moments on CD and DVD, that i suspected strage effects in freddie's voice, and this text confirmed. |
| brians wig 02.11.2014 16:12 |
Wow. |
| The Real Wizard 02.11.2014 17:16 |
An addition - Roger's drum fill in the first chorus of Ogre Battle 3-31-74 (after "come tonight") was a bit sloppy, so they replaced it with drum parts from some other spot in the show. |
| winterspelt 02.11.2014 17:36 |
Thanks! |
| The Real Wizard 02.11.2014 19:22 |
document, re: Now I'm Here @ 0:57 says: perhaps it was impossible to separate from the harmoniesPerhaps, but I still call bullshit because they had two nights to work with, and certainly even other Queen shows (or studio outtakes) that they could've used the vocal from. They cleaned up the Liar flub on Hammersmith 75 this way. Also noteworthy is the edit at 3:22 that has been on every version dating back to the half-hour cinema edit in 1976. A bar of the song is missing, perhaps because the band didn't cleanly make their way into the next section. Again, they had two nights to work with... |
| tomchristie22 02.11.2014 19:33 |
Thanks for the positive feedback guys, I'm really glad this is of some use :)
I'll definitely check out all the suggestions and add them in. Please feel free to post anything else that I've missed so I can include it!
GinjaNinja wrote: It seems that they (at least for the main part of the set) had the "Queen" sign up behind them only on the first night, so that could also help to identify which nights the songs are from.Well! If that's the case, then pretty much all the wide shots in the 2014 version must be from the first night. I'll definitely look into this soon. |
| The Real Wizard 02.11.2014 19:42 |
GinjaNinja wrote: Also, it seems that they (at least for the main part of the set) had the "Queen" sign up behind them only on the first night, so that could also help to identify which nights the songs are from.Interesting - how do you know this for sure? And of course, this only counts for the video and not the audio necessarily.. |
| tomchristie22 02.11.2014 20:11 |
That's true. I'm trying to think of cases where the Queen sign being visible could also prove something in the audio comes from the first night... It'd have to coincide with a discrepancy, and both Freddie's mouth movements and the Queen sign would have to be visible in the same shot, or in clearly sequential shots. Then, it might be of some use. I might investigate at some point, but it'd require watching the whole 2014 version, noting points where the sign and Freddie's mouth movements are visible, and THEN looking through those and seeing if there's any already known audio discrepancies at those points. i.e. It's a pretty big task for something that may well not end up proving anything. |
| tomchristie22 02.11.2014 20:13 |
On a barely really related note, was the sign only used at the Rainbow, or was it used often on the SHA tour? I never noticed it to exist until the 2014 release - looking back at the VHS video and knowing it there, it's vaguely visible at points, but I'd never have seen it without knowing it was there. |
| dysan 03.11.2014 02:57 |
A great pdf! I love stuff like this. Comparing it to other similar live material (Bowie at Hammersmith '73 David Live '74, Gary Glitter and The Sweet Rainbow '73 / 74) I'd argue that some of the digital artefacts are due to the rough nature of recording live 'rock' vocals at this time rather than dishonest pitch correcting. But agree that there is definitely evidence of this! So glad we have this release - certainly a better quality historical document than the above mentioned releases. The Bowie 73 one is notable for having blatant Bowie backing vocals which were added in the studio throughout the 70s at various points until it's first official release in 1983. RE the sign - totally with you on that. I had no idea. Would've been nice to see it better. Should've spent some of the nail varnish budget on light bulbs :) |
| The Real Wizard 03.11.2014 09:34 |
tomchristie22 wrote: It's a pretty big task for something that may well not end up proving anything.Ding. There just isn't enough research material. If we had an audience tape of one of the two nights, like with Montreal 81, so much more progress could be made. |
| The Real Wizard 03.11.2014 09:34 |
tomchristie22 wrote: On a barely really related note, was the sign only used at the Rainbow, or was it used often on the SHA tour?Nope, just at the Rainbow show(s). |
| MercurialFreddie 03.11.2014 12:47 |
One person commented on the youtube "video" of Rainbow TFFMS that he had it on bootleg. So the question arises if there is an audience recording of a full march show ? |
| Nitroboy 03.11.2014 13:11 |
MercurialFreddie wrote: One person commented on the youtube "video" of Rainbow TFFMS that he had it on bootleg. So the question arises if there is an audience recording of a full march show ?Did the person provide any proof? |
| MercurialFreddie 03.11.2014 14:58 |
No, only claimed that he had it and boasted about it, trying to make everybody else jealous. |
| NickESB 03.11.2014 15:45 |
Great job, thanks for uploading. As handy a guide as Sir GH's Live Killers analysis |
| GinjaNinja 03.11.2014 17:50 |
The Real Wizard wrote:If you take a look at Stone Cold Crazy:GinjaNinja wrote: Also, it seems that they (at least for the main part of the set) had the "Queen" sign up behind them only on the first night, so that could also help to identify which nights the songs are from.Interesting - how do you know this for sure? And of course, this only counts for the video and not the audio necessarily.. link It's clear that there is no sign at the back, there are several shots with decent lighting that show this. Then compare that to Keep Yourself Alive: link At 0:36 you can see that the sign is up. (You can also see this during SSOR, which comes right before Stone Cold Crazy in the setlist). Thus the sign was only visible at the back (at least during the main set, it may have been revealed for the encore) during one of the nights. I've checked my recording of Flick Of The Wrist from the 1st night (at the SiS exhibition), (link and the segment from about 0:46 to 2:00 matches up exactly with the segment from 24:11 on the DVD. You can't make it out clearly on my recording, but on the DVD you can see the sign in the background several times. This means shots from the main set (at least) with the sign in the background are from the first night. (If we want to be more thorough we could also use this to attempt to identify camera angles which are only used on a single night, but I don't think anyone has enough time for that!) Now this calls into question the idea that Stone Cold Crazy is entirely from the first night. Do we know that the 3-track reel itself is unedited? The tracks on it may not be necessarily from the same night. |
| The Real Wizard 03.11.2014 18:20 |
NickESB wrote: Great job, thanks for uploading. As handy a guide as Sir GH's Live Killers analysisThe artist formerly known as Sir GH ;) |
| The Real Wizard 03.11.2014 18:22 |
GinjaNinja wrote: Now this calls into question the idea that Stone Cold Crazy is entirely from the first night. Do we know that the 3-track reel itself is unedited? The tracks on it may not be necessarily from the same night.Excellent detective work, sir !! The three tracks we have do indeed have overdubs, but we have been assured by Gary Taylor that they are otherwise from the Nov 19 show. If that's the case, then what we have is audio from the 19th and video from the 20th. It's not out of the question, is it ?! |
| tomchristie22 03.11.2014 18:28 |
The Real Wizard wrote:The audio being from the 19th and the video from the 20th seems right, yeah. I don't think they'd have had too much trouble making it sync up, though it does raise the question - why didn't they just use the footage from the night which would have matched the audio they were using?GinjaNinja wrote: Now this calls into question the idea that Stone Cold Crazy is entirely from the first night. Do we know that the 3-track reel itself is unedited? The tracks on it may not be necessarily from the same night.Excellent detective work, sir !! The three tracks we have do indeed have overdubs, but we have been assured by Gary Taylor that they are otherwise from the Nov 19 show. If that's the case, then what we have is audio from the 19th and video from the 20th. It's not out of the question, is it ?! Perhaps the second night just has better shots. It could even be that the first night audio they used does retain lead vocal overdubs, making it not always match the first night's footage. |
| Gregsynth 03.11.2014 18:31 |
Very good thread - and great research by all involved! |
| The Real Wizard 03.11.2014 18:42 |
tomchristie22 wrote: The audio being from the 19th and the video from the 20th seems right, yeah. I don't think they'd have had too much trouble making it sync up, though it does raise the question - why didn't they just use the footage from the night which would have matched the audio they were using? Perhaps the second night just has better shots. It could even be that the first night audio they used does retain lead vocal overdubs, making it not always match the first night's footage.So many questions, so few answers. Also note that Freddie's spoken introduction of Stone Cold Crazy on the official releases is a compilation of both shows, as this differs from the three uncut songs. Another tidbit - Brian's guitar on the final fanfare of Son And Daughter is from the 20th. On the uncut audio (again, going with the 19th), the 1992 Box of Trix version and the 1976 cinema reel, Brian's last chord comes a bit later than Roger and John's button, so they felt the need to clean that one up. |
| tomchristie22 03.11.2014 21:12 |
Okay, I've updated the pdf to include the additional things everyone has helpfully pointed out. I've also edited the updated link into the original post. https://mega.co.nz/#!90RjhAzB!ay4pF_2LjiV4padWS9YGx5Xy8wzOGtlxvSDc8u2Jr8o Changelog - Included every suggestion posted in this thread up until this point. - Fixed some wording in March Liar - specified 'palm muting', the guitar technique, rather than just 'muting' which could be taken to mean volume. - Removed an incorrect statement about Freddie's usual live phrasing at a certain point in Liar, and removed the inference I made stemming from that mistake. - Added a comparison between the 2002 GVH version of Now I'm Here and the 2014 version. Everyone is credited for their contributions - I certainly am not gonna take credit for things that I failed to spot myself. |
| tomchristie22 03.11.2014 21:17 |
MercurialFreddie wrote: One person commented on the youtube "video" of Rainbow TFFMS that he had it on bootleg. So the question arises if there is an audience recording of a full march show ?There's not known to be one, but it's always possible. It would be an absolute gem if one was found to exist, particularly in figuring out what they did to Fairy Feller this year. There is definitely an audience recording of the November 19th show, as Brian's mother taped it at least partially, but I don't like our chances of ever getting our hands on that :P |
| FreddieCat 03.11.2014 22:10 |
Fantastically god job, Tom! Much appreciated. |
| Ghostwithasmile is BACK! 19.11.2014 17:21 |
OKay let me help a bit : The live Acetate is confirmed november 20th. so you have the first 5 tracks to compare Jailhouse rock is from nov 20th. as well. Simply becaue Roger didn't trashed his drumkit at the first night. The beautiful close up shot of Freddie during FTS when he is standing at JD his mic is from nov 19th The 3 tracks Liar, S&D SCC are indeed from nov 19th. Anyone noticed that shots from SSOR are quite poor, I am talking about the angles, it is presented very different compared to the other selected angles. I like GigaNinja his idea about the letter Q U E E N in the back |
| Nitroboy 19.11.2014 19:57 |
Ghostwithasmile is BACK! wrote: OKay let me help a bit : The live Acetate is confirmed november 20th. so you have the first 5 tracks to compare Jailhouse rock is from nov 20th. as well. Simply becaue Roger didn't trashed his drumkit at the first night. The beautiful close up shot of Freddie during FTS when he is standing at JD his mic is from nov 19th The 3 tracks Liar, S&D SCC are indeed from nov 19th. Anyone noticed that shots from SSOR are quite poor, I am talking about the angles, it is presented very different compared to the other selected angles. I like GigaNinja his idea about the letter Q U E E N in the backExcellent post :) So the version of Liar that had the power-cut was from Nov. 20th? |
| tomchristie22 20.11.2014 07:17 |
Ghostwithasmile is BACK! wrote: Jailhouse rock is from nov 20th. as well. Simply becaue Roger didn't trashed his drumkit at the first night.Are you certain all of Jailhouse Rock is from the 20th? At least some of the songs on the 2014 release are composites of both nights - it could well be the first night with the dramatic drum trashing ending from the second night stuck on the end. Ghostwithasmile is BACK! wrote: The live Acetate is confirmed november 20th. so you have the first 5 tracks to compareLive acetate? Is this publicly available? I honestly didn't know any such thing existed. Thank you for your help! EDIT: Okay, I found your share of it - I will definitely listen to it tomorrow and compare with the 2014 release. This is terrific - we'll be able to know for sure what night/s it uses for four songs! EDIT AGAIN: Aaahh, except the links are all dead, all dead. |
| Ghostwithasmile is BACK! 21.11.2014 06:29 |
Acetate : link |
| The Real Wizard 21.11.2014 13:00 |
Ghostwithasmile is BACK! wrote: The live Acetate is confirmed november 20th Jailhouse rock is from nov 20th. as well. Simply becaue Roger didn't trashed his drumkit at the first night. The beautiful close up shot of Freddie during FTS when he is standing at JD his mic is from nov 19thCan you provide proof of any of this? If your research material isn't there for everyone to see, then it's just hearsay. As pointed out above, Jailhouse could easily be a compilation of both nights, with the drum kit trashing stuck onto the end. As for the live acetate - there are already vocal overdubs on it. Where is the proof that not a single note was taken from the first night, considering the acetate is a document of the film's audio well into production? |
| tomchristie22 21.11.2014 18:53 |
Nitroboy wrote: So the version of Liar that had the power-cut was from Nov. 20th?Yup, as the version of Liar that appears on the Trident tape has no power cut, and that's confirmed to come from the 19th. We have some footage of Liar from the 20th in the Days of Our Lives documentary, but only a little. Still, it's pretty valuable, as it actually shows one of the moments where the power cuts out. |
| tomchristie22 21.11.2014 18:54 |
I've compared White Queen from the acetate to the VHS version - the vocal is identical across the two, both are equally overdubbed and thus can't be pinned down to one night. |
| Ghostwithasmile is BACK! 10.12.2014 13:07 |
tomchristie22 wrote: I've compared White Queen from the acetate to the VHS version - the vocal is identical across the two, both are equally overdubbed and thus can't be pinned down to one night.So that one would be 20-11 What about the rest of the acetate ? |
| tomchristie22 10.12.2014 19:34 |
I'm just not convinced that the acetate is entirely from the second night. The fact that it has the same overdubs as the version finally released on VHS in 1992 certainly makes it seem unlikely that it comes entirely from one night - if they were doing studio overdubs on it, why would they have held back from also inserting parts from the other night? |
| The Real Wizard 11.12.2014 23:21 |
tomchristie22 wrote: I'm just not convinced that the acetate is entirely from the second night. The fact that it has the same overdubs as the version finally released on VHS in 1992 certainly makes it seem unlikely that it comes entirely from one night - if they were doing studio overdubs on it, why would they have held back from also inserting parts from the other night?...which is what I've said since day one ! |
| tomchristie22 08.01.2015 04:01 |
Would it be worth me doing the same thing with Hammersmith 75? Comparing Pittrek's merge of earlier versions, which can be fairly described as live and unadulterated, and the 2009 QP mix. The difference between this potential comparison and the Rainbow one is that the Rainbow one was actually working to deduce something which we didn't already know - what's live and what isn't. With Hammersmith, the aim would only be to show precisely the extent of manipulation on the 2009 mix - not quite as meaningful, but perhaps still worthwhile.. |
| The Real Wizard 08.01.2015 22:17 |
The end result would just be depressing. Have fun :-) |
| Nitroboy 19.09.2015 16:56 |
Could someone re-upload this? Thanks I'm currently curious about Liar on the 2014 release, concerning which night the performance is from. |
| Killer_queenIII 19.09.2015 19:59 |
you can look it up here: http://queenlive.ca/queen/misc/Rainbow_comparison_Tom_Christie.pdf |
| Nitroboy 19.09.2015 20:07 |
Liar from November is an odd thing. It has been concluded that the video release uses the performance from the 19th, but the 3-song soundboard recording shared by Sikke a couple of years ago, doesn't fully match up with the video. It's longer than the video, because it seems to have a completely different middle section. |
| pittrek 20.09.2015 04:26 |
Hey Tom, did you ever finish Hammersmith Odeon 75? |
| The Real Wizard 20.09.2015 18:29 |
On the subject of the Rainbow stuff, I discovered something the other day - White Queen on the March show has a clear piano edit at 3:26. You don't hear the beginning of the chord, as it just suddenly cuts in. I almost don't want to know how much editing was done on these shows. |
| tomchristie22 20.09.2015 19:35 |
pittrek wrote: Hey Tom, did you ever finish Hammersmith Odeon 75?I did not - I got about halfway through the setlist, but became pretty occupied with Uni work. I wasn't nearly as motivated as I was with the Rainbow analysis, mainly because, like I said earlier, there's much less to prove by comparing and contrasting versions of Hammersmith. Nonetheless, I think I will finish it - I'm on semester break at the moment, so I'll get started on it. When the official release of Hammersmith comes out, if the mix is any different, I'll add that in too - at very least, the CD will give us the new mixes of Seven Seas of Rhye and See What a Fool I've Been. |
| BETA215 20.09.2015 19:52 |
The Real Wizard wrote: On the subject of the Rainbow stuff, I discovered something the other day - White Queen on the March show has a clear piano edit at 3:26. You don't hear the beginning of the chord, as it just suddenly cuts in. I almost don't want to know how much editing was done on these shows.Do you mean this? |
| tomchristie22 20.09.2015 20:41 |
I'll also do a bit of refining on the Rainbow pdf - I'm confident in all the facts in it, but some of my conclusions are grasping at straws a bit, in hindsight. Written expression could be better here and there, too. |
| Nitroboy 21.09.2015 19:36 |
Nitroboy wrote: Liar from November is an odd thing. It has been concluded that the video release uses the performance from the 19th, but the 3-song soundboard recording shared by Sikke a couple of years ago, doesn't fully match up with the video. It's longer than the video, because it seems to have a completely different middle section. Could someone help me out here? :P |
| GinjaNinja 22.09.2015 13:56 |
Was there ever any explanation behind the exclusion of "Big Spender" and "Bama Lama Loo" on this release? |
| cmi 22.09.2015 14:24 |
^ Unfortunately this question never been answered... |
| Nitroboy 22.09.2015 15:35 |
GinjaNinja wrote: Was there ever any explanation behind the exclusion of "Big Spender" and "Bama Lama Loo" on this release? Royalties I believe? |
| pittrek 22.09.2015 15:35 |
GinjaNinja wrote: Was there ever any explanation behind the exclusion of "Big Spender" and "Bama Lama Loo" on this release?Do we know for sure they were played ? |
| cmi 22.09.2015 16:14 |
^ Look at the tape sheet photo inside the book from the box set. |
| bootLuca 22.09.2015 16:48 |
this! |
| GinjaNinja 22.09.2015 18:27 |
Nitroboy wrote:Big Spender was included on the November disc though.GinjaNinja wrote: Was there ever any explanation behind the exclusion of "Big Spender" and "Bama Lama Loo" on this release?Royalties I believe? |
| LucasDiego 22.09.2015 21:32 |
The march disc have 64 minutes, there is space to put Big Spender and Bama Lama Loo. |
| LucasDiego 22.09.2015 21:37 |
What I think: Bama Lama Loo: the owners of the rights asked too high in royalties. Big Spender : the owners of the rights asked twice than the other, for the track was in the two shows, agreed to put on the November show to have video pictures. |
| Nitroboy 23.09.2015 08:23 |
Nitroboy wrote:Nitroboy wrote: Liar from November is an odd thing. It has been concluded that the video release uses the performance from the 19th, but the 3-song soundboard recording shared by Sikke a couple of years ago, doesn't fully match up with the video. It's longer than the video, because it seems to have a completely different middle section.Could someone help me out here? :P Anyone? It seems odd that the stereo soundboard is so much longer, and different in the bridge. |
| bootLuca 23.09.2015 09:25 |
bootLuca wrote: this! Attachment: 20159221069193953.jpg 176 KBI notice now that there's written "no" near Big Spender and "Encore 1" If this note was written at the time and not added in 2014, couldn't it indicate that the tapes are damaged for these two tracks? |
| pittrek 23.09.2015 11:21 |
According to Rosemary Horide (?)'s review they played a second rock'n'roll medley so it probably WAS played, but indeed, the "no" can mean they were either not recorded or the recording is not usable |
| Nitroboy 25.09.2015 16:34 |
It seems odd that they would not record the first encore, but record the second. |
| dysan 26.09.2015 02:50 |
Probably the same as the Hammersmith encore? They knew it wasn't going to be used so rather than someone spending the money to record it, then just stopped. Tight budget etc. |
| Nitroboy 26.09.2015 09:34 |
dysan wrote: Probably the same as the Hammersmith encore? They knew it wasn't going to be used so rather than someone spending the money to record it, then just stopped. Tight budget etc. No, Hammersmith '75 was due to the contract/union with the camera crew. They weren't allowed to record the last encore, due to time constraints. |
| dysan 27.09.2015 06:16 |
Same difference buddy. |
| bootLuca 27.09.2015 08:33 |
Nitroboy wrote: It seems odd that they would not record the first encore, but record the second.maybe there was some issue during the first encore and the recording is damaged |
| Nitroboy 27.09.2015 08:54 |
dysan wrote: Same difference buddy. Far from it. It would have been illegal to hold the camera crew for the 2nd encore. |