QueenZone discussion #1392619

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: How can the world accept this?

Jefffab1995 wrote: Yes my country is told palestine is evil when most of the Palestinians voted hamas in to end Israeli occupation

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Yeah, and this is what the media are really doing (although it is an extreme example): link When Geraldo Rivera is the voice of reason in a news show, you know something is terribly, terribly wrong.

Jefffab1995 wrote: When Fox is the voice of reason it means the US is in deep shit

Jefffab1995 wrote: The israelis and palestinians will fight like dogs until one is destroyed so until then this cycle of war then peace will never end

The Real Wizard wrote:

Jefffab1995 wrote: The israelis and palestinians will fight like dogs until one is destroyed so until then this cycle of war then peace will never end

The Palestinians can't fight. Not only do they not have the ability to build an army, but all incoming food, water, electricity and medical supplies are controlled by Israel. If the world doesn't step up to the plate, then we will see mass genocide as all Palestinians will be wiped off the map. Do the math - at this rate, it would take a century, but this would be the final result. Problem is - nobody on the world stage wants to be the first to step up to the plate. It would destroy their country, economically and otherwise, at least in the short term. So the status quo will continue, which also includes Israel building settlements onto land that isn't theirs (and the international community offers little more than platitudes). When the media calls this a war, it's so blatantly wrong. A war implies to sides fighting on some kind of comparable scale. The death ratio is about 20:1. Most of that Palestinian 20 is civilians while the Israeli 1 is mostly soldiers. You know the propaganda machine is in full vigour when 1000 women and children have died and very few people seem to have a problem with it.

Jefffab1995 wrote: They have nothing to die for if Israel was as strong as they say they are they wouldn't kill civilians and creating a humanitarian disaster

Jefffab1995 wrote: They have nothing to die for if Israel was as strong as they say they are they wouldn't kill civilians and creating a humanitarian disaster

Jefffab1995 wrote:They have nothing to die for if Israel was as strong as they say they are they wouldn't kill civilians and creating a humanitarian disaster

Jefffab1995 wrote: Yes my country is told palestine is evil when most of the Palestinians voted hamas in to end Israeli occupation

The Real Wizard wrote:The Palestinians can't fight.

The Real Wizard wrote:For all their flaws, they (Hamas) were still democratically elected.

The Real Wizard wrote:And just like apartheid in South Africa where the ANC were labeled a terrorist organization, that's exactly what has happened here.

Jefffab1995 wrote: How can you support these zionist pigs

Jefffab1995 wrote: Brenski this is not war this is Israel disregarding international law to stop a country that cant even be self sufficient. Israel is a country of cowards and criminals

.

In part, that was because of a vicious terrorist campaign by jewish extremists who murdered and lynched British troops (the same troops who helped liberate the Nazi death camps). They also blew up the King David Hotel, killing 91 people. Many of these jewish terrorists then ended up in the first Israeli government.  --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- thomasquinn 32989 wrote: That would be Kurdistan, another one of Balfour's promises that wasn't fulfilled (like Israel and Palestine, neither of which got what they were promised).

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: brENsKi: I'm disappointed that you fail to see the difference between having a right to defend oneself and massacring some 1500 innocent civilians and attacking UN schools. I also see that you are remarkably uncritical of the propaganda that is being spread, in that you are entirely convinced that Hamas provoked this war every step of the way. I had expected a more intelligent response from you.

Jefffab1995 wrote: Like cutting support to Israel we supply them with ammunition and money two things which make this disaster possible.

Jefffab1995 wrote: Israel claims to be a victim brenski but they victimize palestine and honestly if Israel was destroyed the east would be a better place

brENsKi wrote: Casper, it's wrong of you to say I have made personal attacks on you - i haven't. secondly, i genuinely haven't seen anyone condemn Assad on this site - perhaps i was away on hols or something when such a thread rose and died - if you're offended, I'm sorry. I honestly have not seen YOU or anyone bang that particular drum. Let's BOTH admit one thing about this middle east situation, like Northern Ireland, and every other bit of hate-filled dispute in the world - it's rooted in religion - the cause of all evil (ironic when you consider that God comes from the word GOOD). My point: people who take the "get off my land" approach seldom understand the complexities of these issues. As most of these issues arose 500 yrs or more ago - there's no one alive who genuinely understands the cause and so, by consequence cannot have a cure. I'm 52, I've been aware of the Northern Ireland and Middle East issues almost all of my life - certainly form the first time a primary school teacher explained what war is. These conflicts will NOT be fixed while one religious group vows to wipe out another. The only response I would say to that? Hamas will achieve nothing with rocket fire (and surely after 10+ years and 15,000 rockets later - most fools either ideological or otherwise would've realised this. You live by the sword? expect to die by it. - Problem is - that's exactly what Hamas want and believe - religious martyrdom.

Jefffab1995 wrote: Israel claims to be a victim brenski but they victimize palestine and honestly if Israel was destroyed the east would be a better place

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: If you shrug your shoulders at, as we speak, over 1400 civilians killed by the Israeli armed forces, you are quite simply not a decent person. It's that simple. You cannot be a good person and accept the mass-murder of civilians, it is not possible.

thomasquinn 32989 wrote:Apology accepted. There's no need lecturing me on the complexities of the issue - I am a trained historian, I doubt there are many people on this forum with a better understanding of the complex history behind, essentially, all long-term conflicts in the world.

brENsKi wrote:

thomasquinn 32989 wrote:Apology accepted. There's no need lecturing me on the complexities of the issue - I am a trained historian, I doubt there are many people on this forum with a better understanding of the complex history behind, essentially, all long-term conflicts in the world.

now i think it's time for YOU to apologise. - that ^^^ is the single most patronizing insulting thing you could say. I was not lecturing you, i was stating facts. whatever, YOUR studies it doesn't mean you are better qualified than the many lecturers/authorities on this subject who state quite clearly that they don't fully understand the complexity of the situation. and, as a (possibly) intelligent observer - i am just as capable as you are of witnessing the propaganda on BOTH sides and formulating my own opinion. - Mine is based on friends and family who herald from a similar background - Ireland - with 500+ years of post-Cromwellian tyranny, and rhetoric on both sides, struggles, religious wars, uprisings and oppression. throw in forty years of British inflicted famine and i think you'll find I have a fairly decent perspective to offer. Trained historian or not - your tone was patronizing.

Jefffab1995 wrote:Brenski stop just fucking stop!

Jefffab1995 wrote:Racist how am I racist!

Jefffab1995 wrote: How can you support these zionist pigs

Jefffab1995 wrote: Brenski this is not war this is Israel disregarding international law to stop a country that cant even be self sufficient. Israel is a country of cowards and criminals

Jefffab1995 wrote:Israel claims to be a victim brenski but they victimize palestine and honestly if Israel was destroyed the east would be a better place

Jefffab1995 wrote:Yes it is a double standard Israel can kill thousands and when Hamas tries to defend itself they get crucified. .

Jefffab1995 wrote: Thats just personal opinion brenski

brENsKi wrote: Let's BOTH admit one thing about this middle east situation, like Northern Ireland, and every other bit of hate-filled dispute in the world - it's rooted in religion - the cause of all evil (ironic when you consider that God comes from the word GOOD). My point: people who take the "get off my land" approach seldom understand the complexities of these issues.

Zamidoo wrote: The root of all evil is money (and therefore power), not religion...

Zamidoo wrote:Respectfully (and I mean that - I'm not being sarcastic), I don't think that this is strictly accurate. Religion is involved, certainly, but it isn't a simple case of one religion against another, like neighbours with opposing ideological beliefs arguing over a flower border. The root of all evil is money (and therefore power), not religion, and in this case one side seems to have it all.

magicalfreddiemercury wrote: the person I spoke with insisted Israel had the right and the obligation to destroy all threats to itself by any means possible - to hell with the death of innocents, to hell with history showing their method a failure.

The Real Wizard wrote:

magicalfreddiemercury wrote: the person I spoke with insisted Israel had the right and the obligation to destroy all threats to itself by any means possible - to hell with the death of innocents, to hell with history showing their method a failure.

Genuine question - when is the last time such blind allegiance has been seen in human history? North Korea doesn't count, because North Koreans don't have access to information outside of what their government wants them to see. Can't say that about the (apparently) civilized world. Lovely to see you here again.

brENsKi wrote:

Zamidoo wrote:Respectfully (and I mean that - I'm not being sarcastic), I don't think that this is strictly accurate. Religion is involved, certainly, but it isn't a simple case of one religion against another, like neighbours with opposing ideological beliefs arguing over a flower border. The root of all evil is money (and therefore power), not religion, and in this case one side seems to have it all.

sorry. have to disagree. religion was the cause of many more wars and disputes than money ever was. sure money becomes an issue some way down the line - when people forget what they are arguing about - and who's funding which cause start to chase their investments, but initially and fundamentally, it's belief. belief, and God (of one sort or another) is the biggest cause of national and international dispute almost anywhere,... unfortunately mankind does more damage in the name of God than it does under any other umbrella.

Zamidoo wrote:People may use religion to justify their actions, but it isn't the root of the problem. If it were, all atheists would be pacifists. But I'm happy to agree to disagree.

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: This is not civilization. If you support this, you don't qualify as a human being. 

brENsKi wrote: And as for Atheists being pacifists - that is a silly things to say. Not believing in something does not make you ambivalent or unaffected by the thoughts/words and deeds of believers....people can disbelieve as strongly as believers believe...

brENsKi wrote:

Zamidoo wrote:People may use religion to justify their actions, but it isn't the root of the problem. If it were, all atheists would be pacifists. But I'm happy to agree to disagree.

that's it exactly. People using Religion as an excuse for their actions is Religion being responsible...can't you see that. And as for Atheists being pacifists - that is a silly things to say. Not believing in something does not make you ambivalent or unaffected by the thoughts/words and deeds of believers....people can disbelieve as strongly as believers believe... here's some examples of warmongers/haters/persecutors who didn't follow any religious belief or were particularly anti-religion at the time they carried out their attrocities. Hitler Stalin Pol Pot Lenin Mao Tse Dong

brENsKi wrote:

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: This is not civilization. If you support this, you don't qualify as a human being. 

where did I say that? but conversely, I suppose you support Hamas launching rockets from schools and public buildings? and Hamas using children as human shields?

thomasquinn 32989 wrote:

brENsKi wrote:

here's some examples of warmongers/haters/persecutors who didn't follow any religious belief or were particularly anti-religion at the time they carried out their attrocities. Hitler Stalin Pol Pot Lenin Mao Tse Dong

The Atheism = pacifism fallacy aside: neither Hitler nor Stalin belongs in that list. Hitler was a church-going Catholic, who notably disapproved of the dabbling in 'paganism' of subordinates like Himmler and who got on quite well with the conservative Catholic leaders in Germany. Notably, it was their party, the Centre Party, which got Hitler in power in 1932. Contrary to popular belief, the nazi party did not get a majority, simply a plurality, in those elections. Stalin was actually being trained as an orthodox priest before he got kicked out and joined the communists out of spite more than ideology, according to reports from people who knew him.

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: "were not religious" and "didn't follow any religious belief or were particularly anti-religion" are two very similar concepts, aren't they? When you posted that list, which is, coincidentally of course, the same list of supposedly 'atheist mass-murderers' Christian fundamentalists like to use, you were using it as a CONTRAST to religious mass murder. Therefore, it is relevant to point out that both Hitler and Stalin were themselves religious. I was perfectly willing to apologize for what you perceived as a patronizing tone until I read your "Casper would be surprised to learn that this was one of those experiences that teaches you more than history ever could."-jab. That was so petty I immediately lost all desire to engage in further conversation with you, which is basically how I feel now. I've stuck up for you being a jerk on this forum before, but I'm starting to wonder why. Anyway, good job distracting from the deputy speaker of the Knesset calling for the establishment of concentration camps to house the population of Gaza until they can be deported and from the huge number of Belgian intellectuals taking a stand against mass-murder, something you still won't condemn. Are you one of those "for the greater good" people now?

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: "were not religious" and "didn't follow any religious belief or were particularly anti-religion" are two very similar concepts, aren't they? 

brENsKi wrote:

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: "were not religious" and "didn't follow any religious belief or were particularly anti-religion" are two very similar concepts, aren't they?

that isn't what is said. stop misquoting me - i said: here's some examples of warmongers/haters/persecutors who didn't follow any religious belief or were particularly anti-religion at the time they carried out their attrocities. the point being that i was making a clear distinction that some of the list didn't have a religious belief and others were particularly anti-religion when they committed their attrocities. the f*cking key word is the f*cking great "OR" in the middle of the sentence. ie - that some didn't follow a belief, while others did - but were anti-religion at that time, despite their own beliefs. capiche? what is it with you? why can't you actually read what i type instead of telling me what i mean? definitely time to back out of this one - no point trying to discuss anything with someone who's intent on telling me what i said or meant - when YOU're wrong on BOTH counts.

Jefffab1995 wrote: Do not even try to insult Pius XII

Jefffab1995 wrote: Do not even dare insult the church

Jefffab1995 wrote: Thomas

thomasquinn 32989 wrote:

brENsKi wrote: no point trying to discuss anything with someone who's intent on telling me what i said or meant - when YOU're wrong on BOTH counts.

Ok, I see, I should have understood right away that you meant that Hitler was a Catholic and Stalin was indifferent but an ex-seminary student. How stupid of me, I am so sorry. And how stupid of me also that I failed to see how you have the moral high ground in an argument where you justify the deaths of hundreds upon hundreds of civilians as a regrettable necessity and I say it is unacceptable. I should have understood how wrong it is of me to be outraged by the mass death inflicted of people of the wrong persuasion/ethnicity. Instead, I should have gravely stated that it is regrettable that such offers must be made for the greater good. Thank you for showing me the light, Mr. Brenski. You've shown me how arrogant I have been by your ceaseless modesty, you've showed me the error of my ways by your consistent morality and deep humanity in explaining to me how it is really sad that some 1800 civilians are now dead, they died so that their neigbors no longer have to fear that some of them might want to kill *them*. You are such a superior person, thank you for sparing some of your time for me.

Donna13 wrote: There must be a more clever way to punish or contain Hamas, other than with bombs that ruin infrastructure and kill thousands of innocent people.

Donna13 wrote: There must be a more clever way to punish or contain Hamas, other than with bombs that ruin infrastructure and kill thousands of innocent people.

thomasquinn 32989 wrote:

Donna13 wrote: There must be a more clever way to punish or contain Hamas, other than with bombs that ruin infrastructure and kill thousands of innocent people.

Exactly! This is simply resorting to the same failed tactics America used during the Vietnam war when dealing with villages used by the Vietcong to hide in - it was a disaster, resulting in massive loss of life and vastly increased support for the Vietcong.

Jefffabiano wrote: The Israelis are opportunists always making a situation to start a war with hamas. This time it was killing three of their own children. Face it Israel is an empire of evil posing as the victim of a country that does not have a standing army. Open your eyes israel is a threat to peace we need to cut aid to them and assist hamas

brENsKi wrote: and curiously enough - NOT a single mention from ANYONE here condemning Hamas for breaking a third ceasefire (today).

The Real Wizard wrote:

brENsKi wrote: and curiously enough - NOT a single mention from ANYONE here condemning Hamas for breaking a third ceasefire (today).

Of course Hamas are dickheads. No sane person is denying that. But those rockets mostly aren't killing people. A total of three Israeli civilians have died in this conflict. .

brENsKi wrote: their (Hamas') live by the sword/die by the sword mentality is condemning their innocent people to the same. this is NOT Israel's fault. It's Palestine's. they have a choice - and that choice is simple, overthrow Hamas and choose dialogue rather than guns and rockets.

The Real Wizard wrote: Dude, you're off your fucking rocker. You cannot blame the innocent civilians of Palestine for the military choices of Israel. Do you honestly think it's easier for them to overthrow Hamas than it is for Israel to simply choose not to drop bombs on schools full of women and children that they've already terrorized? With this kind of mentality and blind hatred you're starting to sound like a little moustached man from Germany in the 30s. You're advocating for genocide by granting Israel the clemency and right to kill thousands of innocent people as they please. Look at yourself in the mirror for a moment.

brENsKi wrote: I have condemned Hamas. that is all.

The Real Wizard wrote:

brENsKi wrote:I have condemned Hamas. that is all.

And so am I. I agree with you, 100%. But why are you not condemning Israel for their choices to bomb schools full of innocent people? That has nothing to do with Hamas. There were no militants in the schools, nor were there weapons. Read the article I posted. It was a mass slaying of civilians, end of.

brENsKi wrote: depends what you read. more than half the articles i've seen online cite Hamas as having hidden arms/rockets etc in UN schools.

the satellite images show stuff being launched from ground locations at those places.

is there anybody here who wouldn't do everything they could to defend their own against outside attack? stop condemning Israel and THINK about a society that elects terrorists.

finally: the fact that you and Casper appear to have the same standing in this as that pillar of intellect and reason, Jefffabiano, does neither of you any credit.

The Real Wizard wrote: This is the single most accurate thing ever written on the subject: http://edition.cnn.com/2014/08/08/opinion/israel-own-worst-enemy-levy/index.html He is absolutely bang on in pointing out that what most propels the IDF is the systematic dehumanization of Palestinian civilians. I remain shocked that this was published in US mainstream media. He needs those bodyguards more than ever now.

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Wow! Talk about some heavily slanted copy-pasting. No mention of the Jewish terrorist groups in British Mandate-Palestine. No mention of the King David Hotel bombings. Brenski, you are so full of your UNCONDITIONAL support of Israel (meaning unconditional support of LIKUD in this case) that you are unable to see how you are making yourself into a tool for militarist propaganda. You're practically working for the far right now! The worst thing is - you're someone who is usually fairly sane, but you throw all reason to the wind when it comes to Israel's aggression on Palestine. You're one of those people who claim everyone who doesn't fully support EVERYTHING Israel does is actually supporting Hamas. I never thought YOU of all people would be such a short-sighted, narrow-minded pro-warhawk jerk.

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: You know what Brenski? You can go fuck yourself with your heavily slanted copy-pasted BS. You accuse everyone who doesn't agree with you of selective reading, propaganda, misinterpreting and what not, but you yourself engage in some of the most hypocritical bullshit artistry I've ever seen on this forum. You're such a filthy propagandist now that you try to force everyone who doesn't support Netanyahu and his FAR-RIGHT GOVERNMENT unconditionally into a pro-Hamas mould. That makes you a pathetic fucking bastard who can't win a discussion by arguments. I've had it with you. Now that you try to usurp a position as a responsible historian you've crossed a line - you can go take your holier-than-thou attitude and your third-rate knowledge of history and cram it where they daylight never shines. You're so deluded that you probably still think you have the upper hand and the moral high ground in this argument, but you couldn't be more wrong. You support Israel unconditionally because the Jews were victimized by WWII - that basically makes you as much of a bigot as the people who want to kill all Jews because of Israel - you simply ignore that Israel does not represent all or even a majority of Jews. You're probably also crazy enough to agree with Netanyahu that JEWISH organizations that oppose his policies are anti-Semitic. You've really shown your true face, Brenski, and it's not pretty. You're an arrogant bastard with a superiority complex and not nearly as much knowledge and expertise as you seem to think. Anyone who justifies violence against innocent civilians is evil, and that is exactly what you do. You JUSTIFY Israeli WAR CRIMES and Israeli MASS MURDER ON CIVILIANS, and that, Brenski, makes you an evil person. I could try to act like you and be a huge condescending jerk without resorting to swearing, but I'm not going to. You're a complete asshole and I don't give a shit what further idiocy you're going to hurl onto this forum - I've had it with you, and I'm not going to waste a single further character on your sorry person.

Donna13 wrote: You are creating arguments on your own, TQ. Brenski never said anything about unconditional support of Israel's military actions or leadership. Maybe you could create a few imaginary Queenzoners who are 100 percent behind Israel's actions and then you could argue with them. That might be a nice outlet for your anti-social hostility.

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: I've had it with you, and I'm not going to waste a single further character on your sorry person.

Jefffabiano wrote: Brenski fuck off t('')t

Jefffabiano wrote:Im not racist you are

Jefffab1995 wrote: How can you support these zionist pigs

Jefffab1995 wrote: Brenski this is not war this is Israel disregarding international law to stop a country that cant even be self sufficient. Israel is a country of cowards and criminals

Jefffab1995 wrote:Israel claims to be a victim brenski but they victimize palestine and honestly if Israel was destroyed the east would be a better place

Donna13 wrote: Jeff has just sent me a personal message, as I see from the email alert. Of course, I will not be reading the message because Jeff is a drunk, nasty troll.

Donna13 wrote: TQ would never apologize to anybody. You are right about that! So, no ... I wouldn't expect it. I suspect that some of this troll activity (TQ and Jeff) are examples of alcohol-fueled aggression. Notice that TQ is repeating past points. The brain is not working at its peak. And Jeff is just drunk and dumb. I see a striking similarity between Jeff and Jake. I would give it a good chance that either Jeff is Jake or we have a very similar personality in the two. It is unusual for a new member here to jump into the personal forum. So I suspect a clone at the very least.

FreddieCat wrote: Good article with many good links. link But this is perhaps the most important one. link

thomasquinn 32989 wrote: Threatening to use force against civilian targets if military action is taken near them - how is that different in ANY WAY from nazi reprisals on the civilian population after attacks by resistance fighters?