| Sebastian 27.04.2014 11:07 |
There’s been a request to discuss the songwriting process on Queen, so here it is. It’s gonna be a long post so if you’re not up for a long read, try to scan and skim or simply ignore this. Please only contribute if your comments are gonna help this ‘research’. By that I don’t mean you’ve got to agree with me, but if you disagree, you can do it in a respectful way, there’s no need to bring out offensive comments and uncontrolled rage just because I said something you disagreed with. If you find any mistake, feel free to point it out and I’ll be happy to stand corrected. In a very oversimplified way, there are three basic ‘components’ here: * Lyrics: The ‘poem’ of a song. * Music: The main melody and the chord progression behind it. * Arrangements: What the bass does, what the guitar does, whether there is a guitar or not, which parts have backing vocals and what they do, etc. Usually, the people credited (and paid) for the authorship of a song are the ones who did the first two. I always use Guns ‘n’ Roses’ cover of ‘Knocking on Heaven’s Door’ as an example: GnR changed the key, altered the vocal melody, added guitar solos, bass parts, rhythm guitar parts, keyboard parts, drum beats and backing vocal parts that were not in the original version, but the song is still Bob Dylan’s, because at the end of the day they kept his lyrics and all the guitar parts, etc., were dictated by the chord progression he’d written prior. You can find loads of covers and renditions of ‘Knocking on Heaven’s Door’, in reggae version, as a chamber piece, as a choir piece, etc., and Dylan had no participation on any of those, but the song is still his. Now, usually, classical music composers and soundtrack composers, etc., they write all parts for all instruments. They use standard music notation and then they get people who can read such notation (e.g., members of a professional orchestra) to play them with the instructions they’ve indicated (pitch and duration of each note, tempo, volume, dynamics, special techniques). It also happens in some bands or groups (not necessarily exclusively classical or exclusively jazz or exclusively rock) where they all (or most) can read and write music notation, they use that to communicate what the composer wants. Les Luthiers are a good example: link The man who composed that piece (the one who’s playing the homemade trumpet, which he also designed by the way) wrote the music score for all instruments (which are plenty, as the five of them are changing instruments as they go along) and since they can all read music notation, they used that to learn their parts. Now… many (but not all) rock bands, folk bands, etc., are largely formed by people whose approach to music is chiefly (and often, but not always, exclusively) playing by ear, and they usually (but not always) cannot read music notation, let alone sight-read ‘a prima vista.’ What happens then? To be continued… |
| Sebastian 27.04.2014 11:08 |
Now, let’s say you’re a member of a rock band, or a folk group, or a ceilidh band, etc. and you wrote a song (words + chords). Now, let’s say it’s time to record it and the question of what to do about the bass line pops up. Usually, there are four scenarios: * Scenario A: You compose (arrange) a bass-line and play it yourself. * Scenario B: You compose (arrange) a bass-line and teach it to the bass player so he/she records it. * Scenario C: You and the bass-player discuss the bass-line and he/she records it with your supervision and approval. * Scenario D: You ask the bass-player to write and play a bass-line. To elaborate a bit: Scenario A of this example (bass) is very common when the person who wrote the song happens to be the bass player of the band. We can safely assume that John wrote all (or at least most of) the bass parts he played on his own songs. Sometimes the composer is not the bass player but he/she decides to record the bass anyway because it saves time and because they have a very clear idea of what they want. It happened sometimes in Queen: Sheer Heart Attack (Roger), Dancer (Brian, playing bass on a synth), Body Language (Freddie, playing bass on a synth). Scenario B: If you and your bass player can read music notation then it’s simply a matter of writing the score. If not, then there are still ways to teach them what you want: you can record a demo with your playing (happened a lot in The Who, for instance) for the bass player to learn his/her part and practise it so by the time of the recordings they he/she knows it by heart; you can also show him/her what you want by playing it yourself, either on bass or (if bass is not your thing) on a guitar, piano, or even singing it or humming it. Sometimes the bass line happens to be chiefly (or exclusively) just doubling what another instrument does, so it’s even easier to teach him/her what to do. The bass on ‘Tie Your Mother Down’ is most of the time just doubling the guitar an octave lower, so whoever wrote the guitar part also wrote the bass part; on a big part of ‘Bo Rhap’ the bass is doubling the left hand of the piano, so whoever wrote one wrote the other. Scenario C: You’ve got a general idea of what you want but don’t know or don’t care too much about the specific notes and stuff, so you’re more like ‘ok mate, on the first verse I don’t want you to play anything, then on the first chorus you play just the root of the chord every beat, then on the second verse I want you to do some arpeggios and from then there’s a jam session so just do whatever you want.’ You’re not specifying which exact notes to play and when (for the arpeggios, for instance), but you’re still in charge. Another variant can be if you recorded a demo and then the bass player came up with some ideas on how to improve the bass part and you like them so the final arrangement is a bit of a collaboration. Scenario D: You can’t, or don’t want to, write the bass-part so you give the bass player carte blanche to do as he/she pleases. More often than not, however, the person who wrote the song still retains some moral rights to ‘veto’ the part if they don’t find it satisfactory. Then it’s the same process with every instrument, backing vocal, etc. Usually, for Queen, it’d be Scenario B or C, depending on the era. |
| Sebastian 27.04.2014 11:09 |
People tend to assume that in rock it’s always Scenario D but actually, there are many exceptions: * Eagles: Glenn Fry was quite specific about the instrumentation, and he’d often decide what each person would play on the songs he and Henley wrote (Henley was usually more into the lyrics, which were fantastic). Don Felder had a similar approach: he’d often (though not always) record demos where he played all instruments and then the band used them to learn their individual parts. * Beatles: When the songs had any outsiders, it was usually (though not always) George Martin who wrote the score for them (e.g., violin players, trumpet players, etc.), based on whatever the author of the song wanted. When the songs were completely performed by members of the band, usually Paul would write all parts for all instruments, though there were exceptions (e.g., ‘Drive My Car’). He’d also routinely teach John and George the parts he wanted them to sing. * Kansas: All of the violin, viola and cello parts that Steindhart played were composed, note for note, by Kerry Livgren. Livgren didn’t play any of those instruments, but he still composed for them and used music notation to convey what he wanted. * Iron Maiden: Other than the actual guitar solos, Harris usually writes everything for every instrument and then teaches it to the rest of the band. * Queen By the way, not being a bassist doesn’t disable you from composing great bass parts. Same for every instrument. Freddie was a great composer of guitar parts, even though he himself wasn’t a great player. Brian’s not a world-class bassist, but he’s really wonderful at writing bass parts (which were then very beautifully played by John and Neil and others). John’s not a singer, but he wrote excellent vocal parts (which were then sung by his bandmates). |
| cmsdrums 27.04.2014 11:46 |
"By the way, not being a bassist doesn’t disable you from composing great bass parts. Same for every instrument. Freddie was a great composer of guitar parts, even though he himself wasn’t a great player. Brian’s not a world-class bassist, but he’s really wonderful at writing bass parts (which were then very beautifully played by John and Neil and others). John’s not a singer, but he wrote excellent vocal parts (which were then sung by his bandmates). " If Brian can write such great parts, why the hell does most of The Cosmos Rocks have such dire, plodding, marking time, bass parts so clearly lacking in a proper bassist's input?!? |
| Wiley 27.04.2014 13:30 |
As usual, very thorough and well thought post from Sebastian. Good point about The Cosmos Rocks lacking imaginative bass playing. Some things that glitter comes to mind. Brian kinda tried there but I think John would have done wonders with it. Brian apparently had many distractions at the time of TCR. His songs are well produced - even a cheesy rocker like Still Burnin' has great guitar - but he let go a bit on other songs. 'Laid back' doesn't necessarily mean 'sloppy', Bri. Even if some of his solos kinda 'grow on you' after a while, I can only imagine what Brian could have accomplished if he had been devoted to the project like with MIH. |
| Sebastian 27.04.2014 14:47 |
cmsdrums wrote: If Brian can write such great parts, why the hell does most of The Cosmos Rocks have such dire, plodding, marking time, bass parts so clearly lacking in a proper bassist's input?!?Because musicians don't excel at 100% of what they do 100% of the time. Freddie was a magnificent songwriter and a very creative pianist, but his one and only solo album lacks a lot on both aspects (except when he's not playing). Roger's an outstanding drummer, but his performance on some concerts in the early 2000s were far, far, far below his usual level. They've all got good and bad moments. TCR was a good album for Brian, but it pales in comparison with nearly everything else he's been involved in, where he's 'excellent', 'magnificent' or simply 'May-estic' rather than just 'good.' |
| Lord Gaga 27.04.2014 15:35 |
Is it really fair to level all the criticism of the bass playing on Brian? Paul also played bass. Any way to tell who played bass on what? I'd ask Brian but I doubt he'd want to talk about the album... |
| Sebastian 27.04.2014 15:39 |
I think that's a different topic to this one, but anyway: FAIK, the three of them played bass, the three of them played guitar, the three of them played keyboards and the three of them sang. |
| The King Of Rhye 28.04.2014 00:04 |
Holy freaking heck, Sebastian..........awesome thread you started.... For one example, I always heard that Freddie wrote the guitar parts for Ogre Battle.....which is kind of a complex riff really.........though he only played guitar on one song for Queen........and I thought he pretty much wrote ALL of BoRhap...........tho I never knew how much of that was written vs arranged....... |
| Sebastian 28.04.2014 01:30 |
To be fair, the riff is not that complex ... it's fast, but the structure of it, clever and all, is not too alien. It's more related to having creativity (which Freddie had plenty of) than with being an accomplished guitarist. Freddie played on CLTCL but it doesn't mean that was the only time he did it. Witness recollections point out at more instances of that happening, although I don't know whether his guitar ever remained on the final versions in any other track. Maybe, maybe not. On 'Bo Rhap', reportedly Brian wrote the solo and he sang it (yeah, sang it) to Freddie, Freddie liked it and gave it his blessing. Otherwise most of the arrangement on the song is his, including all of the vocal harmonies. |
| Ozz 28.04.2014 10:52 |
my Two Cents: It's easy to distinguish where Brian did not had influence on the guitar. Ogre Battle is a good example because the main riff is something natural that you do when you are not used to play guitar (playing notes in open strings), and Brian riffs are usually non linear but more harmonic oriented. John's bass runs are easy to notice too, he usually adds a lot of depth to the bass work, without showing off too much. Silent, precise but fun and with a lot of sense of the groove of the song. Freddie's guitar parts usually had chords that are more natural in piano than guitar. I notice that even in CLTCL which only wants to sound rockabilly. Roger's guitar parts are a little bit flat for my taste. They sound rough and a bit like Lennon or Dylan. Nice topic. |
| The King Of Rhye 28.04.2014 11:33 |
Ozz wrote: John's bass runs are easy to notice too, he usually adds a lot of depth to the bass work, without showing off too much. Silent, precise but fun and with a lot of sense of the groove of the song. Nice topic.Heh...........thats just a good summation of John's bass playing in general.........seriously underrated bass player.......... |
| Wiley 29.04.2014 12:54 |
Sebastian wrote: Freddie played on CLTCL but it doesn't mean that was the only time he did it. Witness recollections point out at more instances of that happening, although I don't know whether his guitar ever remained on the final versions in any other track. Maybe, maybe not.What witnesses mention Freddie playing guitar and (roughly) when? Any quotes or any additional detail would be appreciated. :) I just realized that I've never seen an image of Freddie playing guitar in a recording studio. I seem to recall one of him playing it while sitting on a sofa, though. Thanks! |
| Ozz 29.04.2014 16:33 |
Wiley wrote: I just realized that I've never seen an image of Freddie playing guitar in a recording studio. I seem to recall one of him playing it while sitting on a sofa, though. Thanks!What about this cute pic: link here's the quote Reinhold Mack wrote: Freddie said, “Can we do this real quick? I just have an idea I want to get down as a reference so I don’t forget it. Don’t worry, I can’t play guitar!” I put him in a little booth right next to the control room and, since I had everything else set up, he asked if we could go for sounds. I said, “Just put it down. It’ll be alright.” He said, “We’ve never done that.” I said, “It doesn’t matter. Trust me, it will work!” We put a track down and, being good musicians as they are, that is the track you hear! Freddie said, “Let’s do this real quick, before Brian [May] comes. Otherwise it will take weeks to get it done.” So, we had the basic structure [to “Crazy Little Thing Called Love”]. The next thing was a couple of overdubs. |
| GAP 12.05.2014 09:19 |
......... |
| Vocal harmony 12.05.2014 12:04 |
Sebastian wrote: * Iron Maiden: Other than the actual guitar solos, Harris usually writes everything for every instrument and then teaches it to the rest of the band. ).Not true. All of Iron Maiden write. The things I'm aware of Harris writing were often a Bass line and lyrics, sometimes chord changes mapped out on a guitar, but often not. The rest of the band build up the song structure on those basic ideas. Most of the time. Bruce Dickinson very often is responsible for the final melody, although Harris or who ever else has written something may give him pointers. As regards to Queen and the comment that the Bass plays the same part as the guitar, an octave lower in TYMD and does the same for much of Bo Rhap on the piano parts thus proving that the writer of each song wrote the Bass parts. No they didn't. Why would both Freddie and Brian have the same ideas of what the Bass should be doing. The fact that both songs feature a similarly built Bass line is surely proof that the line were written by John |
| Mr.QueenFan 12.05.2014 16:13 |
I love John Deacon. He really excelled himself in two Freddie songs: - The Millionary Waltz and We are The Champions I don't know if Freddie wrote those lines, but the beginning of WATC is classic John. And i'm inclined to say that TMW was a co-creation between the two of them. Take a look at this excelent performance of the song by a fan: link When he pulled those harmonics at 1:05min i knew i was listening to a higher level of thinking music and the Bass guitar. Freddie could have given him directions but those harmonics are John's, and that's the genius at work. I'm pretty sure that even Freddie was impressed with the end result. He left us with so much beauty to enjoy if we care to really listen to his music. Great topic, Sebastian. |
| Sebastian 13.05.2014 00:57 |
Vocal harmony wrote: Not true. All of Iron Maiden write. The things I'm aware of Harris writing were often a Bass line and lyrics, sometimes chord changes mapped out on a guitar, but often not.Harris wrote the bass line, the guitar line, the other guitar line, the melody and the drum part, more often than not. Other than the guitar solos, he was basically responsible for all everything played, with some exceptions. Vocal harmony wrote: As regards to Queen and the comment that the Bass plays the same part as the guitar, an octave lower in TYMD and does the same for much of Bo Rhap on the piano parts thus proving that the writer of each song wrote the Bass parts. No they didn't.Yes they did: if the bass is doubling the guitar, then whoever wrote the guitar part has effectively written both. Same for piano left hand. Vocal harmony wrote: Why would both Freddie and Brian have the same ideas of what the Bass should be doing.Because instrument doubling is one of the most basic, most important and most beautiful concepts of music. From Beethoven to Lady Gaga, from Holst to Deep Purple, from traditional Indian music to whoever arranges for Britney Spears, the phenomenon of an instrument doubling another is ancient, and when used correctly, is quite effective. Vocal harmony wrote: The fact that both songs feature a similarly built Bass line is surely proof that the line were written by JohnNo, unless John wrote the guitar and piano parts, respectively. |
| Sebastian 13.05.2014 00:59 |
Mr.QueenFan wrote: When he pulled those harmonics at 1:05min i knew i was listening to a higher level of thinking music and the Bass guitar. Freddie could have given him directions but those harmonics are John'sThey're *played* by John, but not necessarily *written* by him. At the end of the day, it's not about scoring bass parts or guitar parts or piano parts or vocal parts, it's about scoring music parts and then have then played by the bass or the guitar or the piano or sung or whatever. Freddie, Roger and Brian didn't need to be excellent bass players in order to write great bass lines; they just needed to be excellent composers, which they were/are. Same for any other combination (e.g., John and guitar). |
| Vocal harmony 13.05.2014 12:01 |
Sebastian, you're making a lot of assumptions with little proof. Yes doubling a line on Bass an octave below the main instrument is a classic and musically very appealing method of playing. It doesn't however prove that it is what either BM or Freddie told JD to play. He was a very competent musician and very capable of creating what ever he thought would fit in to a song. Queen's writing method, particularly in the 70's was for someone to come in with lyrics and a basic structure, which was then jammed and worked on until they found something they were happy with. On many occasions everyone changed the basic idea but the song was always credited to the person who came up with the original idea. JD could have very easily created those parts out of choice. With regard to Iron Maiden, it may be Harris' band and he may have the final say as to what he likes or doesn't, but your idea that he composes everything in a song is way off the mark. |
| Sebastian 13.05.2014 16:32 |
Vocal harmony wrote: Sebastian, you're making a lot of assumptions with little proof.No, I'm not. Vocal harmony wrote: He was a very competent musician and very capable of creating what ever he thought would fit in to a song.So were the others. Vocal harmony wrote: Queen's writing method, particularly in the 70's was for someone to come in with lyrics and a basic structure, which was then jammed and worked on until they found something they were happy with.No, it wasn't. Their method was for someone to come in with lyrics and music, including all parts for all instruments. Vocal harmony wrote: On many occasions everyone changed the basic idea but the song was always credited to the person who came up with the original idea.Not true. On *several* occasions *someone* (but not *every*one) would suggest changes and then the author of the song would rule whether said changes were fitting or not. Vocal harmony wrote: JD could have very easily created those parts out of choice.No, as they already existed as the guitar or left-hand piano parts, and had been created beforehand by the creator of the song. Vocal harmony wrote: With regard to Iron Maiden, it may be Harris' band and he may have the final say as to what he likes or doesn't, but your idea that he composes everything in a song is way off the mark.It's not, and I didn't say he composes everything. I said everything *but* the guitar solos. Everything is not the same as 'not everything'. |
| Mr.QueenFan 13.05.2014 19:10 |
Sebastian wrote:Yes, but there are some exceptions to this. From memory:Vocal harmony wrote: Queen's writing method, particularly in the 70's was for someone to come in with lyrics and a basic structure, which was then jammed and worked on until they found something they were happy with.No, it wasn't. Their method was for someone to come in with lyrics and music, including all parts for all instruments. Brian wrote the solo for Bohemian Rhapsody. The harmonizing solo of Killer Queen isn't Freddie either, because that's the way Brian thinks the guitar, not Freddie. Brian already explained the thinking behing that solo on some interviews. Another example is how pissed Brian was because of Freddie using another guitar player on his "Mr.Bad Guy" solo album after directing the guitar player to play Brian's style, including follow some demoed guitar parts by Brian - She Blows Hot and Cold is a great example of this. This means that Freddie didn't wrote everything for the other instruments. There was freedom for them to create. And i'm only talking about the solos here, not the song structure, even though they said that if one of them wanted help with the song, the others would help, like Freddie composing the middle eight of "These are the days of our lives" at Roger's request. Brian wrote the solo for TATDOOL too, wich Roger hated at first and now he loves it. The guitar solo on "Heaven for everyone" on the Queen version is all Brian's, simply because there isn't anything like it on the other versions. Even Steve Howe says he improvised on the Innuendo acoustic solos . It's posted on Brian website from a couple days ago. So, even though i understand that they could have the basic structure and ideas of what they wanted, there was freedom for them to put their thinking into it. But not in all songs! Keep in mind that this is for some songs, not ALL the songs. Your post didn't let a door open for exceptions, even though that's what me, and i think others are talking about. Some exceptions throughout the years. Another example for me would be the bass for "Too much love will kill you" and TATTOOL. That's John, there's no way those other two cats can think of a bass guitar like that, because you won't find that outside Queen on their solo projects. The bass for "I'm going slightly mad" is classic John all the way through too. Those arpeggiated slides in the beginning are heaven and repeated in the intro of "It's a beautifull Day". The other place outside Queen where you can find that bass style is on Freddie's Barcelona album in the song "How can i go on" and that's because John plays it. Freddie was a smart man and he knew who the man for the job was. And the same goes to the drumming of "We are the Champions". The tone, the rythm. The perfection! It has to have Roger finger on it, of course respecting Freddie directions, but keep in mind that Roger was responsable for the sound of the songs due to his different Drum kits over the years. I don't think that Freddie gave a shit about the composition of Roger's drum kits, but in the end it had HUGE influence on their sound. A great example is the "News of the World" album. Fredie wrote WATC in 1975, so at that time i don't believe he was listening to Roger drum kit of 77 in his head. He knew what he wanted, but things were adjusted once he was exposed to new sounds from Roger "new" drum kit. I believe that maybe Brian was more assertive towards the drumming he wanted - like on "Sweet Lady" - than the other two. So i think the dynamics changed, but in the end they were all quite unique on their instruments. Of course, there are many assumptions here, so people feel free to correct me because i love to learn new things about Queen. That's why i love this kind of topics. Very refreshing! |
| Stelios 14.05.2014 02:19 |
Brian wrote the solo for TATDOOL too, wich Roger hated at first .....(and now he loves it.)How could he hated this one? The guitar is actualy like crying in a very human then subtle way . Its perfect for me. Actually my favourite. The only reason i can think of its becouse it may sounded over sentimental at first but then again the song is too so can't really explain it. |
| Stelios 14.05.2014 03:58 |
like Freddie composing the middle eight of "These are the days of our lives" at Roger's request.Does "These are the days of our lives" have a middle eight? I can't hear it. Is it supposed to be the one after the solo? To me it sounds like the chorus enhanced (or on a higher key). Where exactly is the middle eight? |
| cmsdrums 14.05.2014 08:28 |
Seb - I think this question is on topic as it related to arrangements; There is a little bass 'trill' in Heaven For Everyone by The Cross, which from memory is under the glockenspeil bit, before the vocal part of "what people do to other souls....". This same bass part appears to be exactly (and I don't mean a part copied but played differently, but EXACTLY) the same on the Queen version. Do you know if this therefore means that Peter Noone appears uncredited on the Queen version, or is it the other way around and John plays the part on the Shove it album? (a third option could be that it is Roger, but it doesn't sound like his playing style). Thanks! |
| Vocal harmony 14.05.2014 08:28 |
Sabastian if what your saying was the case, how do you explain the fact that there are many examples of songs that Queen were working on, available on Youtube and else where, which in there early stages are quite differentbto what has been released as a finished song, is that down to the original writer having put all their musical, and lyrical ideas down for the band to learn and copy as you suggest? Or is it a case of the writer bringing something in and The Band working on it as A Band. Quote Rogere Taylor. "Usually someone brings an idea in and everyone changes it". One of factors, not the only one, that led the band to start crediting the band and not individuals as writers was because they all chipped in and worked together. So a left hand piano part that John happens to play along with could quite easily be JD's decision to play that Bass part like that, as much as it could be someone suggesting he did that. The Iron Maiden thing, yes Iron Maiden there because Harris wants it to be, he formed it and is still part of it, he doesn't as you say write all the parts, except the guitar solos. The band work together. And if they work as you suggest why has Steve Harris felt the need to release a solo album. Could it be so he can get his songs out there written, played and recorded 100% the way he wants, because being a band member doesn't allow that. |
| Mr.QueenFan 14.05.2014 17:18 |
Stelios wrote:I don't know if that's the correct name (i'm not a professional musician) but i once saw someone refering to it as the middle eight so i just went along with it. So there's no confusion, Freddie wrote the chord changes over which Brian soloed. It starts at 2:35m in the next video:like Freddie composing the middle eight of "These are the days of our lives" at Roger's request.Does "These are the days of our lives" have a middle eight? I can't hear it. Is it supposed to be the one after the solo? To me it sounds like the chorus enhanced (or on a higher key). Where exactly is the middle eight? link Roger told that he was stuck when writing this song and couldn't move forward with it, so he asked Freddie for his input, and Freddie created the chord structure over which Brian recorded his guitar solo. |
| Mr.QueenFan 14.05.2014 17:42 |
cmsdrums wrote: Seb - I think this question is on topic as it related to arrangements; There is a little bass 'trill' in Heaven For Everyone by The Cross, which from memory is under the glockenspeil bit, before the vocal part of "what people do to other souls....". This same bass part appears to be exactly (and I don't mean a part copied but played differently, but EXACTLY) the same on the Queen version. Do you know if this therefore means that Peter Noone appears uncredited on the Queen version, or is it the other way around and John plays the part on the Shove it album? (a third option could be that it is Roger, but it doesn't sound like his playing style). Thanks!I know you're asking Seb, but let me give my input on it. This is a great question. I thought about it myself in the past and i believe it's John. The phrasing on the end of the section is a little different in both versions (right before the vocals). But you're right, they do sound the same. Unless the Cross version had that recorded but not used i have to say John, but who knows? Very identical. But if it is John, then i believe that it was recorded for the "Made in Heaven" sessions and not for the Cross sessions. I think by now we would have heard about it. |
| Stelios 15.05.2014 06:25 |
Mr.QueenFan wrote:middle eight or bridge is the part were its neither verse or chorus.Stelios wrote:I don't know if that's the correct name (i'm not a professional musician) but i once saw someone refering to it as the middle eight so i just went along with it. So there's no confusion, Freddie wrote the chord changes over which Brian soloed. It starts at 2:35m in the next video: link Roger told that he was stuck when writing this song and couldn't move forward with it, so he asked Freddie for is input, and Freddie created the chord structure over which Brian recorded his guitar solo.like Freddie composing the middle eight of "These are the days of our lives" at Roger's request.Does "These are the days of our lives" have a middle eight? I can't hear it. Is it supposed to be the one after the solo? To me it sounds like the chorus enhanced (or on a higher key). Where exactly is the middle eight? Like " my soul is painted...i can fly my friends" in TShowMGOn But i get what you are saying about the chord progression durring the solo. |
| FreddieCat 16.05.2014 22:31 |
Great and appreciated topic for us learners! Thanks! |
| Sebastian 18.05.2014 13:10 |
Vocal harmony wrote: SabastianIt's Sebastian, with an 'e'. Please learn to spell. Vocal harmony wrote: how do you explain the fact that there are many examples of songs that Queen were working onActually, there's only one: 'One Vision'. Please learn the difference between 'one' and 'many.' Vocal harmony wrote: Quote Rogere Taylor. "Usually someone brings an idea in and everyone changes it".That quote is from 1985 and it refers to that specific period in time. The AKOM album was a fairly collaborative one: they all discussed the lyrics of FWBF once Freddie brought the initial idea, three of them worked on OV, Fred re-arranged the title track, Fred and John worked together on PISCTP after an idea that Brian came up with. It could even be expanded to 'The Works' era as there was a Maylor collab, a Taycury partnership, a Maycury one and reportedly Freddie did a lot on IWTBF. It doesn't, however, mean *at all* that was the case up to 'Hot Space' (and more often than not it wasn't) or from 'The Miracle' to 'Made in Heaven' (ditto). Vocal harmony wrote: So a left hand piano part that John happens to play along with could quite easily be JD's decision to play that Bass part like that, as much as it could be someone suggesting he did that.But either way, whoever wrote the piano part wrote the bass part in that case Vocal harmony wrote: The Iron Maiden thing, yes Iron Maiden there because Harris wants it to be, he formed it and is still part of it, he doesn't as you say write all the parts, except the guitar solos.He does. Vocal harmony wrote: The band work together.Yes, they work together really well. It still doesn't change the fact Steve writes all parts for all instruments except the guitar solos. Vocal harmony wrote: And if they work as you suggest why has Steve Harris felt the need to release a solo album.Not at all. Good musicians can work for the song. Steve can (and often does) arrange a guitar part and then get someone else to play it, as he knows it'll sound better that way. It also happened a lot to Beatles, Queen, Eagles, etc. Writing a part and playing it are different concepts. Loads of people can write parts they can't perform, loads of people can perform parts they can't write. Vocal harmony wrote: Could it be so he can get his songs out there written, played and recorded 100% the way he wants, because being a band member doesn't allow that.He can still have the songs performed exactly the way he wants as everyone else in the band are professionals who can play really well. Being a band member obviously allows the original writer to keep their vision, and it happens to several bands: Beatles, Eagles, Kansas, Queen, Iron Maiden. |
| Vocal harmony 18.05.2014 15:02 |
Sebastian, I'm sorry about the miss spelling, bad typing, proof reading and lack of time. I think you'll find many examples of Queen demos, being worked on or not, sounding different to the finished released song. If I can find them on Youtube I'm sure you can. The point was that if a song ends up sounding different when it's finished then their has to have been input from other sources then just the writer. Please believe me, your view of Harris's writing methods with Iron Maiden for the most part is wrong. |
| Sheer Brass Neck 18.05.2014 16:43 |
I recall Brian saying that the writing process was that someone would bring a song in and the rest would cut it to pieces. That's the way bands work, unless they're a dictatorship band a la the Who or Van Halen where there is a member who has the bulk of the control via writing or ideas. If there were disputes Brian said they'd give the author their head, meaning you want it that way, you live with it good or bad. I think tons of things changed in the writing process that we'll never know about. |
| Sebastian 18.05.2014 19:56 |
Vocal harmony wrote: The point was that if a song ends up sounding different when it's finished then their has to have been input from other sources then just the writer.Not necessarily. Changes can, and often do, come from the same writer. Not just in music, but also if you look at first drafts of books, articles, etc. Sometimes there's proof-reading and copy-editing by other people, sometimes there's input from others, indeed, but sometimes it's the same person who revised his or her work and decided to modify it accordingly. Vocal harmony wrote: Please believe me, your view of Harris's writing methods with Iron Maiden for the most part is wrong.I don't believe you, and no, it's not wrong. I've been wrong many times, and I've also been right many times, this one belongs to the latter group. Sheer Brass Neck wrote: I recall Brian saying that the writing process was that someone would bring a song in and the rest would cut it to pieces.That might have easily been the case for some songs but not necessarily for all of them. No two cases were ever the same. Sheer Brass Neck wrote: That's the way bands work.No two bands are the same. Sheer Brass Neck wrote: unless they're a dictatorship bandThat's got nothing to do with dictatorship, or Hitler (we're getting close to mentioning him so why not?), it's just the fact that the author of the song had ultimate say. It was part of their compromise of a band: Fred would get his way on his songs, Brian on his, Roger on his, John on his. My original post described the different scenarios and, again, no two songs were the same. Queen belonged, overall, to the kind of bands were the creator of the song would usually either write all parts for all instruments, or write most parts for most instruments and then decide on which external suggestions to take and which ones to discard. Some bands work on a far deeper level of improvisation, jamming and delegating. Queen, Beatles, Kansas, Eagles, Iron Maiden, not so much... which doesn't at all mean they were dictatorships. Freddie was absolutely fine with singing what John wanted the way John wanted on a song by John, the same way John was happy with playing what Freddie wanted the way Freddie wanted on a song by Freddie. Sheer Brass Neck wrote: I think tons of things changed in the writing process that we'll never know about.Of course, but of what can be documented, they were usually (though not by any means always) respecting the author as the ultimate decision-maker, either in terms of accepting/rejecting any suggestions by the others, or in terms of writing all parts for all instruments by himself. It applied to all four of them. |
| Queenfansunite 19.05.2014 08:36 |
How much input did Freddie have on sail away sweet sister and long away and save me 3 Brian songs that have great melodies Just interested how that happens, is it all Brian's melodies, the vocals are so great melodies, is that Freddie giving some ideas or all Brian's ideas? Oh and who wants to live forever, is that all Brian's vocal melodies? Oh and I must ask seeing as John does not sing What about your my best friend and spread your wings, who came up with the vocal melodies for those? Did John do demos of the above songs with his own vocals? How does that work? They would be some very collectable demos lol John can sing but not to the standard he thinks is good enough, that must be the answer. So there must be demos john sings on for those two songs. Probably SYWngs is different key very simpler on guitar. You never know, we might see more explained and hear actual demos played back when the movie comes out? I like that barn with candles video, should be good for movie also. |
| Vocal harmony 19.05.2014 09:21 |
Sebastian, as if proof was needed. Have a look at BM's website, a clear explanation of how things are changed during the writing process. And Stone Cold Crazy wasn't the only song that happened on. I have sat in a room with Iron Maiden when they've worked on new songs. I've witnessed the way they work. Using that as my reality bench mark, I know that your view of their working methods and particularly Steve Harris's is wrong. Their for if you are wrong about that, there can be no certainty that your ideas about how Queen used to work are correct and as such the possibility that some else has a view, which may be contrary to yours, has to be accepted as being at least a possible alternative to what you believe to be fact. |
| Sheer Brass Neck 19.05.2014 09:48 |
Seb, when I say "that's the way bands work", you reply "no two bands are the same." I get that. Which is why I wrote that "unless they're a dictatorship band", and used examples where there was an overpowering personality who reigned over the others when it came to direction. Merriam-Webster defines band as " to unite for a common purpose —often used with together", which is removed from alone, or solo. So "bands" work together to make songs to fit the way that the "band" is happy with. Also, there is no definitive proof that backs up your statement that "Queen belonged, overall, to the kind of bands were the creator of the song would usually either write all parts for all instruments, or write most parts for most instruments and then decide on which external suggestions to take and which ones to discard." If you can prove 100 instances where that occurs I'll accept it, otherwise you're engaging in speculation. |
| Sebastian 19.05.2014 09:53 |
Queenfansunite wrote: How much input did Freddie have on sail away sweet sister and long away and save meBrian wrote them. His melodic brain is May-estic. Queenfansunite wrote: Oh and I must ask seeing as John does not sing What about your my best friend and spread your wings, who came up with the vocal melodies for those?Not being a singer doesn't disable you from being able to compose good melodies for vocals. Composing/arranging something and performing it are different disciplines. Queenfansunite wrote: So there must be demos john sings on for those two songs.'Must' is a word that 'must' be eliminated from these kind of research IMO. And no, most likely there were no Deacon-sung demos of them. FAIK, he showed them to Freddie and then Freddie learnt them long before they cut the first demo, or if John did the demo himself, he'd play the melody line on guitar or keyboards. Vocal harmony wrote: Sebastian, as if proof was needed. Have a look at BM's website, a clear explanation of how things are changed during the writing process. And Stone Cold Crazy wasn't the only song that happened on.BM doesn't check everything on his website, and a lot of what is there is inaccurate (just like a lot of what is there is accurate). SCC wasn't the only song where that happened, that's true, but it doesn't mean they always worked like that. Brian, not being a bassist, drummer or pianist, arranged loads of bass, drum and piano parts which he got the others to play, and some which he played himself. John, not being a guitarist, drummer or pianist, arranged loads of guitar, drum and piano parts which he got the others to play, and some which he played himself. Freddie, not being a guitarist, bassist or drummer, arranged loads of guitar, bass and drums parts which he got the others to play, and some which he played himself. Roger, not being a guitarist, bassist or pianist, arranged loads of guitar, bass and piano parts which he got the others to play, some of which he played himself. Vocal harmony wrote: I have sat in a room with Iron Maiden when they've worked on new songs. I've witnessed the way they work.Any proof of that? Vocal harmony wrote: Their forIt's 'therefore'. Vocal harmony wrote: what you believe to be fact.Correction: to what you believe I believe to be a fact. |
| Sebastian 19.05.2014 09:56 |
Sheer Brass Neck wrote: Merriam-Webster defines band as " to unite for a common purpose —often used with together"Yeah, but it doesn't mean they do *everything* together. They went to the toilet separately (I hope...), and they also wrote and arranged songs separately. Sheer Brass Neck wrote: Which is why I wrote that "unless they're a dictatorship band"Dictatorship bands aren't the only exception to that. There were other bands which, not being dictatorships, still had the author being also the sole or chief arranger: Beatles, Eagles, Kansas, Queen, Iron Maiden. Sheer Brass Neck wrote: If you can prove 100 instances where that occurs I'll accept it, otherwise you're engaging in speculation.If you can prove 100 instances where that doesn't occur I'll accept it, otherwise you're engaging in speculation. |
| Vocal harmony 19.05.2014 10:16 |
Steve Gadd was a friend of mine, he was Nics Dums teck before becoming their tour manager. Beyond that I'm giving you no More proof. And BM doesn't have to read his own interview to know what he has said, I don't think. You have authored some great posts on here. But that doesn't mean you are exclusively right about everything. Maybe a bit of acceptance that there are other answers, or ways of looking at things other than your own. You don't appear to be willing to be flexible on a subject that you are largely in the dark about. |
| Sheer Brass Neck 19.05.2014 10:21 |
Sheer Brass Neck wrote: If you can prove 100 instances where that occurs I'll accept it, otherwise you're engaging in speculation.If you can prove 100 instances where that doesn't occur I'll accept it, otherwise you're engaging in speculation. But i'm not the one stating it's an absolute, you are! |
| Vocal harmony 19.05.2014 10:34 |
Sebastian wrote:[/ Roger, not being a guitarist, bassist Correction: to what you believe I believe to be a fact.Reading what you have to say about RT then reading what you've just said about me. . . You appear to be chasing your tail to. Make a point. |
| Queenfansunite 19.05.2014 10:46 |
Sebastian wrote:Ok I see that is possible, but it is still equally also possible that there are demos with John singing your my best friend and spread your wings.Queenfansunite wrote: How much input did Freddie have on sail away sweet sister and long away and save meBrian wrote them. His melodic brain is May-estic.Queenfansunite wrote: Oh and I must ask seeing as John does not sing What about your my best friend and spread your wings, who came up with the vocal melodies for those?Not being a singer doesn't disable you from being able to compose good melodies for vocals. Composing/arranging something and performing it are different disciplines.Queenfansunite wrote: So there must be demos john sings on for those two songs.'Must' is a word that 'must' be eliminated from these kind of research IMO. And no, most likely there were no Deacon-sung demos of them. FAIK, he showed them to Freddie and then Freddie learnt them long before they cut the first demo, or if John did the demo himself, he'd play the melody line on guitar or keyboards.Vocal harmony wrote: Sebastian, as if proof was needed. Have a look at BM's website, a clear explanation of how things are changed during the writing process. And Stone Cold Crazy wasn't the only song that happened on.BM doesn't check everything on his website, and a lot of what is there is inaccurate (just like a lot of what is there is accurate). SCC wasn't the only song where that happened, that's true, but it doesn't mean they always worked like that. Brian, not being a bassist, drummer or pianist, arranged loads of bass, drum and piano parts which he got the others to play, and some which he played himself. John, not being a guitarist, drummer or pianist, arranged loads of guitar, drum and piano parts which he got the others to play, and some which he played himself. Freddie, not being a guitarist, bassist or drummer, arranged loads of guitar, bass and drums parts which he got the others to play, and some which he played himself. Roger, not being a guitarist, bassist or pianist, arranged loads of guitar, bass and piano parts which he got the others to play, some of which he played himself.Vocal harmony wrote: I have sat in a room with Iron Maiden when they've worked on new songs. I've witnessed the way they work.Any proof of that?Vocal harmony wrote: Their forIt's 'therefore'.Vocal harmony wrote: what you believe to be fact.Correction: to what you believe I believe to be a fact. I hope so anyway. |
| Sebastian 19.05.2014 15:58 |
Vocal harmony wrote: But that doesn't mean you are exclusively right about everything.Of course not. I've been wrong many times, and I've admitted so (including on this thread). I've also been right many times. Vocal harmony wrote: Maybe a bit of acceptance that there are other answers, or ways of looking at things other than your own.I've got loads of acceptance about it. Maybe you should take your own advice. Vocal harmony wrote: You don't appear to be willing to be flexible on a subject that you are largely in the dark about.I am, but in this case I'm not so largely in the dark about. Queen members, very often, would write all parts for all instruments in their own songs. |
| Sebastian 19.05.2014 16:00 |
Sheer Brass Neck wrote: But i'm not the one stating it's an absolute, you are!Actually, you are, by claiming that all bands have members co-arranging everything unless they're a dictatorship. That's a very B/W way of seeing it. These things are not B/W and they're not a greyscale either. There are millions of colours, and not being able to see the FIR or the UV doesn't mean they don't exist. |
| Sheer Brass Neck 19.05.2014 23:31 |
^^^ Sebastian, i think your research and musical knowledge is sensational so I am not against you. I think you're trying too hard to be the smartest guy in the room here. You posted "Queen belonged, overall, to the kind of bands were the creator of the song would usually either write all parts for all instruments, or write most parts for most instruments and then decide on which external suggestions to take and which ones to discard." I didn't post that "Queen belonged, overall, to the kind of bands were (it's actually 'where' since you've pointed out other's typos this is fair play) the creator of the song would seldom write all parts for the instruments and then ask for suggestions on which parts to add." So you are suggesting that Queen, "overall, would usually write all parts for instruments..." Prove it. Give me five examples. I'll help you out with the first one. Roger said Brian pushed him to play a certain style for Sweet Lady. However, that doesn't mean that Brian "wrote all parts for instruments." Would you say he did as it relates to Sweet Lady? If you did, we'll agree to disagree on what writing parts means. I don't think think Brian could write the drum part for Sweet Lady. I think he could say "steady kick with the drum, aggressive hi hat and snare" whereas Roger may have envisioned a straight 3/4 beat. Same thing as the bass at the end of SASS. I don't think Brian wrote it (he had the ability too) but I think he gave John guidance to play out over a melodic line. Which of us is certain? |
| Sebastian 20.05.2014 18:46 |
Sheer Brass Neck wrote: I think you're trying too hard to be the smartest guy in the room here.I'm not. Sheer Brass Neck wrote: (it's actually 'where' since you've pointed out other's typos this is fair play)It is and I stand corrected. Sheer Brass Neck wrote: Prove it. Give me five examples.That's actually an interesting topic, which I was thinking about this morning. Now, as to 'prove' it, I can't, because, to be fair, nobody can actually prove anything. Can we prove Freddie sang the lead vocals on We Are the Champions? Certainly, the voice sounds like him, but how can we prove it wasn't a sound-alike? Credits point at him but how can we prove they're not lying? Of course, that's an extreme case, but it strengthens my point that what constitutes 'proving' cannot be 'proved.' Sheer Brass Neck wrote: I don't think think Brian could write the drum part for Sweet Lady.Of course he could. Not being a drummer doesn't disable you from writing drum parts, just like not being an actor doesn't disable you from writing good scripts, or not being a mummified corpse doesn't disable you from studying the Ancient Egyptians and be excellent at it. Sheer Brass Neck wrote: Which of us is certain?Read my point about Fred and Champions. |
| Sebastian 20.05.2014 18:58 |
So, this is what I think (note the use of the verb 'to think') happened to the arrangements per song, based on my experience. Obviously there might be several mistakes on the list below but it's far more than mere speculation and guesswork. ------ QUEEN: For this album they were quite collaborative (sans John, who wasn't even there when most of the songs were written), so I reckon arrangements were more balanced. * Keep Yourself Alive: Brian probably wrote all the guitar and bass parts himself; as for drums, it's more likely that Roger tried out different beats and fills and then Brian chose the one he liked the best (same for the solo). Backing vocals? Judging by their style (they start off unison and then divide), it's more the kind of thing Brian did than the kind of thing Freddie or Roger did. * Doing All Right: Brian wrote guitar, bass, piano and vocal parts. For drums, my guess is the same as on KYA. * Great King Rat: A more collaborative approach but not in the sense of delegating Brian the guitar parts and Roger the drum parts, etc. Instead, it seems that they were all (sans John, who wasn't there when the song was written) discussing all. Freddie sang some of the solo bits in one of the rough takes, which at the end of the day doesn't prove anything though. * My Fairy King: Freddie directed everything, open to ideas the others had if they fitted the song. * Liar: Similar to GKR. I suspect the ending fanfare on guitars was arranged (and composed, chord-progression-wise) by Dr May. * Night Comes Down: As it was also written in the studio, it was more of a case of all of them (sans Freddie) trying out things, jamming, etc., and then Brian sitting at the driver's seat and giving it some final shape. * Modern Times Rock 'n' Roll: Roger wrote the drum part, the bass line, the piano part, the vocal harmonies and the rhythm guitar part. The one bit Brian most likely wrote was the solo. * Jesus: Fred wrote the parts for piano, bass, vocals and rhythm guitars. For drums, it'd have made sense for him to come up with the basic beat and then let Roger add his own fills (especially on the demo), same for Brian's guitar solos. * Seven Seas of Rhye: A bit of a jam in the end, so it was more improvised. * Mad the Swine: The solo is scored in a way that doesn't quite match Freddie's style as an arranger, but it totally matches Brian, that speaks volumes. ------------ TBC. |
| Queenfansunite 20.05.2014 18:58 |
But there are exceptions As we know Freddie took over both radio ga ga And it's a kind of magic, which were both credited to Roger.so in those cases we know Roger did not do all parts all instruments ,as Freddie changed everything to what we hear on the record. Keep yourself alive always lyrically I imagined it as Freddie's words, they suit him so much as if there from his mind. |
| Sebastian 20.05.2014 19:07 |
QUEEN II: * Procession: Brian wrote everything. * Father to Son: Brian had the capacity to write both the drum and bass parts even though he didn't play them himself. As for piano and guitars, he both wrote them and played them. I think the only bit of the song Brian didn't arrange was the backing vocals in the break, everything else was first in his brain then brought to life by the band. * White Queen: Similar case. Freddie sang the harmonies but Brian arranged them. John and Roger played the bass and drum parts but Brian wrote them, IMO.... by the way on my previous list I forgot Son and Daughter ... Brian wrote guitar and bass parts on that one (according to my estimation) and drums were arranged in a similar way to the other Brian songs on that album. * Some Day One Day: Similar to White Queen. * Loser in the End: Roger wrote everything except in the end which is more improvised. * Ogre Battle: Freddie wrote the riffs for bass and guitar as well as the drum parts in the main sections. The interlude is more improvised and I don't think some of those overdubs were 'written' as much as they were serendipitously added. * Master-Stroke: That's one solo that sounds to my ears more Freddie-esque than Brian-esque. Of course Brian played it, but it sounds more like the kind of thing Freddie would compose and then give Brian to play. Same for bass and drums, and of course what Freddie played himself. * Nevermore: Freddie arranged everything, although he might have given John some freedom to semi-improvise on the second iteration of the verse and give it a more dynamic feel. * Black Queen: The first solo sounds much more like the kind of thing Brian would write, than like the kind of thing Freddie would write. Other guitar parts, though, (e.g., the fanfare after the slow section) are the other way around IMO. Freddie probably wrote the drum and bass parts as well as all the vocal harmonies (both what he sang and what the others sang). * Funny How Love Is: More improvised, by all of them, partly. * Seven Seas of Rhye: The solo is more Brian-esque than Freddie-esque, as are the bass overdubs and runs. The glissando on the backing vocals was most likely arranged by Freddie, but inspired by the way Brian and Tim used to do it in Smile. * See What a Fool I've Been: Most likely, John and Roger just tried out different parts and then Brian offered suggestions but that was it. TBC... |
| Sebastian 20.05.2014 19:08 |
Queenfansunite wrote: But there are exceptionsOf course there are. It'd be incredibly ridiculous to think that 100% of Queen songs have 100% of instrumental and vocal parts 100% written by the author of the song. It'd be also incredibly ridiculous to think that 100% of Queen songs have the bass-line 100% written by John, the guitar parts 100% written by Brian, the piano and vocal parts 100% written by Freddie and the drum and percussion parts 100% written by Roger. |
| Queenfansunite 20.05.2014 19:10 |
You seem to be saying that whoever is credited wrote every part vocals bass drums guitar piano triangle etc for the most part. But I did hear the band say that basically whoever wrote the lyrics is how the credit ends up with the person. They did not say everything every part was the reason, just the lyrics basically. |
| Queenfansunite 20.05.2014 19:14 |
Do you think its true that even before drum machines that Brian would write drum parts? I have never ever ever seen Brian sat at the drums! He it too tall for the drums isn't he? My thoughts are someone comes in either with a bare idea and they all work on it, but whoever had the idea gets the lyric and the song credit. Or someone came in with a master plan, like Bohemian Rap for example and he shows everyone what he wants and they do it. |
| Sebastian 20.05.2014 19:17 |
SHA: * Brighton Rock: Brian probably wrote everything, including the phenomenal backing vocals. He didn't play drums or bass but he wrote those parts. He was more than capable of doing that. * Killer Queen: Basic layout is Freddie's, for all of them and their role, and the inclusion of the more flamboyant details such as the snare roll followed by a triangle, etc. The other three probably suggested some ideas and if Freddie liked them they were included, for instance the way the guitar solo's harmonised in bell-effect. * Tenement Funster: The solo's probably Brian, everything else Roger wrote, including what he didn't play. * Flick of the Wrist: Freddie wrote all parts for all instruments. * Lily of the Valley: Ditto. * Now I'm Here: Ditto (Brian instead of Freddie). He didn't play bass or drums but he wrote those parts, and everything else he both wrote and played. * In the Lap of the Gods: Mostly Freddie though the outro is more improvised. Those guitar harmonies in the intro were obviously played by Brian, but Freddie had more than enough capacity and creativity to write them. * Stone Cold Crazy: A three-way split between Freddie, Roger and Brian. * Dear Friends: All instruments (i.e., the only one there) and backing vocals were arranged and performed by Brian Harold May. * Bring Back That Leroy Brown: Similar to KQ. * Misfire: John arranged the drums though he didn't play them, and arranged and played all the guitar and bass parts except the guitar fills in the end, which Brian both arranged and played by the sound of it. As for harmonies, probably a collaboration between the three of them (Brian was in the hospital). * She Makes Me: Brian didn't play bass or drums but he was more than capable of arranging them. * In the Lap of the Gods ... Revisited: Fred wrote everything IMO. |
| Sebastian 20.05.2014 19:20 |
Queenfansunite wrote: I did hear the band say that basically whoever wrote the lyrics is how the credit ends up with the person.Quite the opposite: in the DOOL docu, Fred's shown on video saying that on his own songs he would write what Roger would do and what Brian would do. Queenfansunite wrote: They did not say everything every part was the reason, just the lyrics basically.They did: in the DOOL docu, Fred's shown on video saying that on his own songs he would write what Roger would do and what Brian would do. Queenfansunite wrote: Do you think its true that even before drum machines that Brian would write drum parts?Yes. Queenfansunite wrote: I have never ever ever seen Brian sat at the drums!Being a drummer is not mandatory to be able to arrange drum parts, the same way being a singer is not mandatory to write vocal parts, being an actor isn't mandatory to write scripts, being a plant is not mandatory to be a botanist. |
| Queenfansunite 20.05.2014 19:27 |
Sebastian wrote:Goes to show, such great talent!Queenfansunite wrote: I did hear the band say that basically whoever wrote the lyrics is how the credit ends up with the person.Quite the opposite: in the DOOL docu, Fred's shown on video saying that on his own songs he would write what Roger would do and what Brian would do.Queenfansunite wrote: They did not say everything every part was the reason, just the lyrics basically.They did: in the DOOL docu, Fred's shown on video saying that on his own songs he would write what Roger would do and what Brian would do.Queenfansunite wrote: Do you think its true that even before drum machines that Brian would write drum parts?Yes.Queenfansunite wrote: I have never ever ever seen Brian sat at the drums!Being a drummer is not mandatory to be able to arrange drum parts, the same way being a singer is not mandatory to write vocal parts, being an actor isn't mandatory to write scripts, being a plant is not mandatory to be a botanist. All of them musical virtuosos. So from a musical standpoint, In the same spirit of music theory etc, what track would you offer as impressive to you, if that is possible making a choice, maybe it's rare and will be something more simple and brilliant rather than complicated? Can you say? |
| Sebastian 21.05.2014 01:33 |
I think 'Teo Torriatte' is a beautiful one, and the arrangement is so immaculate. I'm sure Brian was more than capable of writing the bass part and the drum part (and the tambourine part for the middle eight), as well as all the backing vocals... and of course he arranged and played all guitars and keyboards. A masterpiece. |
| Vocal harmony 21.05.2014 07:06 |
Sheer Brass Neck wrote: ^^^ Sebastian, i think your research and musical knowledge is sensational so I am not against you. I think you're trying too hard to be the smartest guy in the room here. You posted "Queen belonged, overall, to the kind of bands were the creator of the song would usually either write all parts for all instruments, or write most parts for most instruments and then decide on which external suggestions to take and which ones to discard." I didn't post that "Queen belonged, overall, to the kind of bands were (it's actually 'where' since you've pointed out other's typos this is fair play) the creator of the song would seldom write all parts for the instruments and then ask for suggestions on which parts to add." So you are suggesting that Queen, "overall, would usually write all parts for instruments..." Prove it. Give me five examples. I'll help you out with the first one. Roger said Brian pushed him to play a certain style for Sweet Lady. However, that doesn't mean that Brian "wrote all parts for instruments." Would you say he did as it relates to Sweet Lady? If you did, we'll agree to disagree on what writing parts means. I don't think think Brian could write the drum part for Sweet Lady. I think he could say "steady kick with the drum, aggressive hi hat and snare" whereas Roger may have envisioned a straight 3/4 beat. Same thing as the bass at the end of SASS. I don't think Brian wrote it (he had the ability too) but I think he gave John guidance to play out over a melodic line. Which of us is certain?Good post. makes a lot of sense. If Queen did work as has been sugested, someone presenting a demo of all the parts of a song in place. doesnt that relegate the rest of the band to being session musicians playing on any particular song written by another band member. The evidence we have, snippets of interviews etc, points towards a band member coming in with lyrics and maybe sometimes only a chord sequence which the band then fashion into a song. I still dont believe that there major writing technique was to come to the studio with a fully formed demo for the others to learn and then play. |
| Sebastian 21.05.2014 09:34 |
Vocal harmony wrote: If Queen did work as has been sugested, someone presenting a demo of all the parts of a song in place.That's not the only way to do it. Vocal harmony wrote: doesnt that relegate the rest of the band to being session musicians playing on any particular song written by another band member.It doesn't. Vocal harmony wrote: The evidence we have, snippets of interviews etc, points towards a band member coming in with lyrics and maybe sometimes only a chord sequence which the band then fashion into a song.Not really. Vocal harmony wrote: I still dont believe that there major writing technique was to come to the studio with a fully formed demo for the others to learn and then play.I didn't say they'd come with a fully formed demo. I said they'd more often than not write all parts for all instruments, and I still stand by that. |
| Queenfansunite 21.05.2014 13:02 |
TTero/ let us cling together: I think I agree, that song is amazing, and never fails to move me when I listen to it. It is a masterpiece, but is made by Freddie's vocals, as well as the music. It is a such a beautiful emotionally powerful lyric and tune that it really is in a way disappointing that Freddie himself did not write it, as it seems to fit his style so perfectly. All praise to Brian's songwriting skills the same with Save me & Las palabros de amour & who wants live Forever!!! So true that Queen were the strength of each member. Such a showcase and compliment to the whole talent of each member, each able to bring for each other and use each others talents within the band. and ironic that Brian is thought of as the real hard Rocker so much, yet wrote such Queen Epic ballads, and was so in tune with what suited Freddie also. Brian and Freddie so much the sound and songwriting style that made Queen so recognisable? Freddie's vocals Brian's Guitars, like John and Paul, but the harmonies nothing without Roger, nor the heavy rock, or the later big hits , magic, ga ga days of our lives . And Queen would be one track , one direction , one genre , if it were not for the diversity of John's songwriting influence on the bands repertoire, which enabled Queen to become a none genre band and made them more universal: Another one bite's the dust / under pressure, imagine Queen never duetting with Bowie. Those two are my favourite male artists, Queen and Bowie, unthinkable a nightmare , that they would have never done anything together , yet so strange they did. I wonder , will the unknown Jackson Mercury/ Queen material become as legendary? Victory, a rocker a power ballad a slow ballad a dance song? The title is all so Queen, like Champions. VICTORY! Everything that made Queen so great a band, was all of them. |
| dragonfly.trumpeter 61319 25.05.2014 17:50 |
inu-liger "hopefully we can get this garbage removed" Well the United States of Government are working on this issue, and Canary Wharf and in particular, 8, Canada Square E14 is the first target but there are many others in Zone 2 and Zone 1 of London. Graham David Bruton |
| Sebastian 02.01.2015 10:04 |
Lovely thread. |
