QueenZone discussion #1377372
Did Queen lose the States, because they 'lost' Freddie?
| another one diets the bust 18.03.2014 16:14 |
Freddie wasn't not yet dead, when they released the arguably guilty IWTBF, but let us take a look at the following: Queen in the seventies (with the exception of their debut album, which failed to spawn any hit single anyway) always had an album-preceeding single by Freddie. Seven Seas Of Rhye / Queen 2 - 1974, Killer Queen / Sheer Heart Attack - 1974, Bohemian Rhapsody / A Night At The Opera - 1975, Somebody To Love / A Day At The Races - 1976, We Are The Champions / News Of The World - 1977, Bicycle Race / Jazz - 1978 (and even the second single Don't Stop Me Now - 1979 after the release of the album) and Crazy Little Thing Called Love / The Game - 1979 (and even the third single Play The Game - 1980). But after that they only had one further Mercury hit in the States with Body Language / Hot Space - 1982, which only was the second single from that album. And after that together with Queen Freddie just had one more major hit with It's A Hard Life / The Works - 1984, which even was just the third single of that album. Then he 'vanished' and Queen never recovered states-side. Just a mysterious coincidence? |
| scottmax 18.03.2014 20:27 |
No...... |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 18.03.2014 21:56 |
"Radio Ga Ga", 16/Billboard, not 'I's A Hard Life'. 'Body Language' was the first "real" single... Queen recovered U.S.in 1992 for a combination of things: Freddie's passed away, 'Wayne's World', 'Classic Queen' (4/Billboard), 'Greatest hits red'(11/Billboard).... |
| marc.s 18.03.2014 23:12 |
another one diets the bust wrote: Freddie wasn't not yet dead, when they released the arguably guilty IWTBF, but let us take a look at the following: Queen in the seventies (with the exception of their debut album, which failed to spawn any hit single anyway) always had an album-preceeding single by Freddie. Seven Seas Of Rhye / Queen 2 - 1974, Killer Queen / Sheer Heart Attack - 1974, Bohemian Rhapsody / A Night At The Opera - 1975, Somebody To Love / A Day At The Races - 1976, We Are The Champions / News Of The World - 1977, Bicycle Race / Jazz - 1978 (and even the second single Don't Stop Me Now - 1979 after the release of the album) and Crazy Little Thing Called Love / The Game - 1979 (and even the third single Play The Game - 1980). But after that they only had one further Mercury hit in the States with Body Language / Hot Space - 1982, which only was the second single from that album. And after that together with Queen Freddie just had one more major hit with It's A Hard Life / The Works - 1984, which even was just the third single of that album. Then he 'vanished' and Queen never recovered states-side. Just a mysterious coincidence?Despite the bad reaction to IWTBF, and of course the video was a big factor in losing some territories in the US, it's been documented before that Paul Prenter was responsible for souring the relationship between Queen and the radio stations. And without the backing of the stations it was virtually impossible to keep a presence in America the like of which Queen were accustomed. I think they could have ridden the tide of negativity had this been so. |
| GonnaUseMyPrisoners 19.03.2014 00:00 |
Putting the blame on Paul Prenter is a convenient way of looking at it, and I don't deny he was responsible for some damage. But they lost a LOT of fans at the grass roots level (FAR greater damage) because of their August 1984 concert dates in Sun City. You would not want to have been known as a Queen fan (as I was, working in a record shop) when everyone around you was demanding to know why you, too, wouldn't abandon Queen for "being greedy racists" and "arrogantly defying the UN boycott". Every goddamned day one person after the next (some friends, some just random customers) engaging me in debates and or verbal assault, assuming I'd justify Queen's actions... horrible memories. It meant nothing to these people that the South Africans took up IWTBF as a kind of anti-apartheid anthem nor that the shows were "integrated" (that's from memory, I hope I'm correct). Didn't matter. Queen were routinely villified in the press, on MTV, literally everywhere because they violated the UN boycott. Little Steven and company drove nail after nail into their coffin over here ("Ain't gonna play Sun City" was a huge hit and no one ever heard the end of it from him et al), and quickly won the popularity battle. Some believe Queen's demise in the US was exclusively about the changes in Queen's music (even Hot Space was a moderate success on some level here, the tour did well, for example, they charted...)... OK, to a small degree, perhaps the synthetic sound of The Works wasn't universally loved in the US, and perhaps Prenter didn't help getting radio play for it. But it was Sun City that really killed them with politics. I couldn't help take it very personally - I loved Queen! They meant more to me than any other band, ever. I believe that most fans have forgotten (or overlooked) that now (now that the band have done a lot of charity work with Mercury Phoenix Trust and 46664 with Mandela since that time) that the loudest detractors have finally been silenced. All I can say is thank god they played Live Aid, because in some small way they redeemed themselves, as artists and as political entities, that day. |
| The Real Wizard 19.03.2014 00:44 |
I doubt Sun City had much to do with it. Hot Space bombed, and the lead singles off the next album were Ga Ga and Break Free - aka not rock. Queen were popular in the US because they were a rock band. Had they come out of the gate with Hammer To Fall, things may have turned out quite a bit differently. But isn't hindsight always 20/20 ? The video for Break Free sealed the deal. Homophobic 80s America did not get the Coronation Street gag at all. As for the business end of it - Paul Prenter absolutely was part of the problem. But it's ultimately the songs that did them in. |
| musicland munich 19.03.2014 01:25 |
@gonnausemyprisoners...usually it is pushing the sellings if you are labelt as a "controversial" Artist. ( I'am not judging if it's for the good or the bad ) Not going to tour the states wasn't helpful as well. There were mainly two sources that say Freddie was at least "aware" about his health status in 84'- Mary Austin and David Wigg. Well "if" he was aware, then maybe it was one of the reasons why he drop his interests about the US. |
| rocknrolllover 19.03.2014 04:32 |
in America asshole from the big letter is Obama. it is not Putin wants Ukraine was destroyed, it's plan "B" of Obama. |
| slightlymad1970 19.03.2014 06:53 |
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| slightlymad1970 19.03.2014 07:03 |
The quote you hear from Jim Beech is that Freddie would not tour America again unless they had a major hit and basically that hit never happened. According to Brian that hit was going to be Radio GaGa, by all accounts it was heading Top5 until the Capitol Records PR Guys downed tools and went on strike so pulling all the promo for the song so it stalled at No 16. Whether Freddie would've toured the US if GaGa was a huge hit is still open to debate but the lack of a major tour is a big reason the band lost America. I still find it strange how people still say Queen were never big in America 42,000,000 album sales would say otherwise!!! |
| marc.s 19.03.2014 07:15 |
slightlymad1970 wrote: The quote you hear from Jim Beech is that Freddie would not tour America again unless they had a major hit and basically that hit never happened. According to Brian that hit was going to be Radio GaGa, by all accounts it was heading Top5 until the Capitol Records PR Guys downed tools and went on strike so pulling all the promo for the song so it stalled at No 16. Whether Freddie would've toured the US if GaGa was a huge hit is still open to debate but the lack of a major tour is a big reason the band lost America. I still find it strange how people still say Queen were never big in America 42,000,000 album sales would say otherwise!!!hi slightlymad1970 that's an interesting bit of info about the sales in America, where is the source for that I'd like to read that . That's a huge about of sales. |
| master marathon runner 19.03.2014 08:20 |
Forgive me if im wrong,but the way I see it is,: Queen had the states, lost it,(for whatever reason) and then got it again, since Freddies death.(high profile on American idol, r & r hall of fame, waynes world resurge, blah blah blah) |
| another one diets the bust 19.03.2014 08:35 |
It's agreeable, the US might not have liked the poppy sounds of Radio Ga Ga or A Kind Of Magic, but to come back to Freddie, Body Language was his last major hit in Northern merica. Let's not take into account, what happened after his death. But even then, Queen's success only lasted for a few months. Only the re-releases of Bohemian Rhapsody (# 3 on the US Bllboard charts, # 1 on the US Cash Box charts and # 18 on the Canadian RPM charts) and Somebody To Love - sung by George Michael though, but close to the original - (# 13 on the Canadian RPM charts) charted in NA, besides the Classic Queen (# 4 on the US Billboard charts) and Greatest Hits [red] (# 11 on the US Billboard charts). I still would have counted Radio Ga Ga as a US hit, It's A Hard Life at least did quite well in Europe. But after that Freddie never charted that high with Queen again, solo he did quite a few times. That's only in Europe of course and again does not count the re-releases/covers of Bohemian Rhapsody, Somebody To Love or Don't Stop Me Now. NA not liking Queen's more poppy approach since The Works onwards might explain, why the Bicycle Race single was not such a big hit in the US and even was billed as its B- or double-A side Fat-Bottomed Girls in Canada. But would Queen have really recovered if they toured NA? The Magic album was a disaster over there, with having been their only studio album between Queen II (1974) and Made In Heaven (1995) not to even reach the US Top40. The only other Freddie-penned Queen singles thereafter were mediocre hits at best (The Miracle # 21 UK, I'm Going Slightly Mad # 22 UK, not even to speak of Princes of the Universe, which didn't chart in NA at all). Besides, stopping touring didn't keep them from still scoring hits all over Europe. |
| Vocal harmony 19.03.2014 11:46 |
The Real Wizard wrote: I doubt Sun City had much to do with it. Hot Space bombed, and the lead singles off the next album were Ga Ga and Break Free - aka not rock. Queen were popular in the US because they were a rock band. Had they come out of the gate with Hammer To Fall, things may have turned out quite a bit differently. But isn't hindsight always 20/20 ?The video for Break Free sealed the deal. Homophobic 80s America did not get the Coronation Street gag at all. As for the business end of it - Paul Prenter absolutely was part of the problem But it's ultimately the songs that did them inAgreed. I think AOBTD and later the Hot Space album drove mucch of their US audience away. At the time of the Hot Space tour BM said that they were having problems selling venues out that in the past had sold easily. The Sun City gigs were in 85, long after the US market had been lost. What doesn't seem to be well documented is that a 1984 US tour was cancelled. BM in march of that year did an interview on Rockline Radio. I think it was in LA but I'm not sure. I had a tape of it but it has been long lost. During that program BM took questions by phone. One of which was a woman asking when they would tour next and would the show be as big as in the past. BM's revealing answer was that this time round the show is bigger with more of a back to the heavier songs feel. He also said we will be around your way in June or july! Those dates fit in with the long gap between the release of the works and the first European dates at the end of august and September. |
| Vocal harmony 19.03.2014 11:50 |
A quick PS correction to the above. sun city was in 84 but after the European dates, but not in august. It was still after the US market had suffered. |
| brENsKi 19.03.2014 12:15 |
I'd say that Freddie was the reason for their losing the USA...the campness of the promotional videos was what put the American public (generally) off. The MTV generation did so much for some artists in the USA but it killed queen.Freddie's artistic approach to both IWTBF and IAHL was so overblown that it turned most americans off. Most people cite the Coronation St thing as being key - but i think it was more the overtly camp visuals in "The Fawn" section and the camptastic decadence of IAHL.... Really can't understand that a group so "in touch with trends" (CLTCL and AOBTD are examples of this) - why didn't record they two promo videos for each Works single? |
| The Real Wizard 19.03.2014 12:31 |
Vocal harmony wrote: What doesn't seem to be well documented is that a 1984 US tour was cancelled. BM in march of that year did an interview on Rockline Radio. I think it was in LA but I'm not sure. I had a tape of it but it has been long lost. During that program BM took questions by phone. One of which was a woman asking when they would tour next and would the show be as big as in the past. BM's revealing answer was that this time round the show is bigger with more of a back to the heavier songs feel. He also said we will be around your way in June or july! Those dates fit in with the long gap between the release of the works and the first European dates at the end of august and September.Fascinating. And not at all surprising. How I'd love to be a fly on the wall during the ensuing conversations where the tour was pulled. Doesn't surprise me in the least. I bet this is what they were talking about when they said Paul Prenter blew off their US contacts one by one. Details here: link |
| Vocal harmony 19.03.2014 13:19 |
I really wish I still had that tape. The BM was talking about the staging, setlist and proposed dates it sounded like they wer very close to announcing something. Yeah being a fly on the wall would have been very enlightening. . . . Talking of touring and stage sets I wonder what they are planning this time? Maybe that thought/question belongs on another thread. Woof woof! |
| Lord Gaga 19.03.2014 14:19 |
I always thought the release of The Works (February 1984) and the start of their tour (August 1984) was an unusually long gap for Queen. I don't think they'd ever had such a gap before in their history, and I'm sure a lot of it was because Freddie was working on Mr. Bad Guy. Interesting that a US tour was planned but canceled. I bet that if Queen had toured the US, especially with the Works repertoire, which excised a lot of the Hot Space/dance material in favor of a harder rock edge, they would have done astoundingly well, and might even have gotten a lot of their fans back. Remember that Rolling Stone called The Works "Led Zeppelin II for the 80s", and what better endorsement could a band possibly ask for?! |
| people on streets 19.03.2014 14:29 |
This crap again? |
| MercuryArts 19.03.2014 15:26 |
This is the first tome I ever heard any mention of a US tour cancelled in the spring/summer of 1984. I was waiting & waiting for a tour to be announced. I agree with above posts & I have posted on here before that IWTBF, both the song & the video hurt Queen here in the US. This isn't the sole reason for their decline in the US, but it certainly played a part. As for the whole Sun City tour, There was never any mention of these gigs around my area, Philadelphia, for sure. I would have heard about it on the radio or from someone in H.S. for sure. Back to the info about the cancelled US tour, that only hurts more to know that it was on the table then taken away, rather than no tour being planned at all. |
| LucasDiego 19.03.2014 19:00 |
It's sad that great songs like it's a hard life, hammer to fall, princes of universe and innuendo passed too unnoticed in america |
| musicland munich 19.03.2014 19:22 |
I just add some dates to the 84'timeline ( not complete ) February: Release of "The Works" ( around that time Fred had some fights with "The Sun"-- "Oh yes I'am gay.I'have done all that" May: Golden Rose Montreux June : Rogers Album "Strange Frontier" was in the UK Charts July: Tour Rehearsals began ( sometimes twelve hours and more a day) August/September: Tour October: Sun City dates / Freddies Single "Love Kills" " Metropolis Soundtrack and they produced "Thank god it's christmas" |
| Shumway 19.03.2014 22:39 |
There's no denying that Freddie's hit song writing output did decline in the 80s, but we know he made substantial changes to AKOM among others. I have an interview disc which I haven't listened to in 10-15 years. It contains a previously unreleased Freddie interview recorded some time after The Works was released. I remember Freddie saying that Roger Taylor really wanted Radio Ga Ga to be a hit, (because all other band members had already penned hit singles). In the same interview he said that Brian's songs were virtually finished and needed no more work by the time he presented them to the band, but (in his opinion) Deacon and Taylor's songs often needed some of his input, (as with AKOM for example). I'm not sure if anyone else remembers the interview I am talking about? Freddie is eating as it is being conducted and can be heard summoning Phoebe to fetch him more chicken throughout, ("Phoebe! More chicken!") |
| Saint Jiub 19.03.2014 22:59 |
In a 2011 interview of Brian mentioned: "and I think 3 things contributed to us losing America" link Can anyone confirm and provide a link for Jim Beach's quote as paraphrased earlier in this topic by slightlymad1970? "The quote you hear from Jim Beech is that Freddie would not tour America again unless they had a major hit" The Rockline interview of Brian May mentioned by Vocal harmony was broadcast on April 30, 1984. link .and Real Wizard provided the link to the 2005 QZ topic which listed this link on "what scuppered the band's career in America.": link |
| The Real Wizard 19.03.2014 23:47 |
Panchgani wrote: The Rockline interview of Brian May mentioned by Vocal harmony was broadcast on April 30, 1984. linkWell spotted ! |
| The Real Wizard 20.03.2014 00:02 |
Panchgani wrote: In a 2011 interview of Brian mentioned: "and I think 3 things contributed to us losing America" linkWow, this really is an amazing interview. Also these: link link |
| cmsdrums 20.03.2014 09:08 |
Highlander was a fairly big budget US film, and Queen agreeing to do the soundtrack could have been seen to be a pretty sure fire way to reach the US market again. However, through no fault of the band, the film effectively bombed in the US, thereby ruining any plan they had of that being their 'way back in'. |
| greaserkat 20.03.2014 11:51 |
The Real Wizard wrote:LOLm I wonder why Arlene's post were deleted...Vocal harmony wrote: What doesn't seem to be well documented is that a 1984 US tour was cancelled. BM in march of that year did an interview on Rockline Radio. I think it was in LA but I'm not sure. I had a tape of it but it has been long lost. During that program BM took questions by phone. One of which was a woman asking when they would tour next and would the show be as big as in the past. BM's revealing answer was that this time round the show is bigger with more of a back to the heavier songs feel. He also said we will be around your way in June or july! Those dates fit in with the long gap between the release of the works and the first European dates at the end of august and September.Fascinating. And not at all surprising. How I'd love to be a fly on the wall during the ensuing conversations where the tour was pulled. Doesn't surprise me in the least. I bet this is what they were talking about when they said Paul Prenter blew off their US contacts one by one. Details here: link |
| The Real Wizard 20.03.2014 12:37 |
They haven't been ... she had since changed her name to "doremi." |
| malicedoom 21.03.2014 08:09 |
Just F.Y.I. (because my memory is very clear on this)... Queen only 'recovered' in the USA because of the release of Wayne's World. Freddie's death had absolutely NO impact on anyone's awareness of them here in The States (I remember being astounded by this - I'd ask people if they heard the news of Freddie's passing and they'd simply reply that they'd NEVER EVEN HEARD OF THE BAND - argh). Brian even mentioned this in an interview I saw. His quote was something along the lines of: "Even Freddie DYING couldn't bring us back in The States. But then this little movie came along..." Wayne's World is what re-started them here. It's funny to me that it's rarely mentioned/remembered as it happened (the Wikipedia page is a good example of this - Wayne's World is barely mentioned as having anything to do with it - but that's what was responsible for it - and I'm still thankful). |
| slithybill 21.03.2014 17:16 |
Vocal harmony wrote: I really wish I still had that tape. The BM was talking about the staging, setlist and proposed dates it sounded like they wer very close to announcing something. Yeah being a fly on the wall would have been very enlightening. . . . Talking of touring and stage sets I wonder what they are planning this time? Maybe that thought/question belongs on another thread. Woof woof!I thought I might have a tape of this show too but unfortunately I don't. I doubt I even heard the show because I know I would have remembered Brian claiming they were planning on touring the States. But that didn't stop me from finding the phone number of Gerry Stickells in LA and calling him to ask when Queen was going to tour again. That was sometime in '85 or '86. I do have tapes of Brian and Roger's Rockline appearance in 1991 and Brian's appearance in '92, plus a Queen tribute show a week later on the night of the Freddie Tribute Concert. I recorded some other radio interviews from the early 80's but they weren't live like Rockline and were distributed to stations on LP or CD. |
| slithybill 21.03.2014 19:07 |
I did find a clipping (in my "archives") from USA Today on March 26, 1984:
USA Today wrote: As for touring, Queen doesn't plan to hit the road again until the fall, preferring to test public response to the new album first. "We're financially secure," Taylor says, "so we have the opportunity to get off the treadmill that says you must record an album and follow it up with a tour." Queen, one of the pioneers of rock video with 1976's Bohemian Rhapsody, is counting on clips to promote The Works until a tour is organized.This was the week after the album was released in the US. Here's a possible timeline: Brian does the radio show at the end of April and both the album and Radio Ga Ga were selling well so they were planning to tour. But then IWTBF doesn't even make the top 40 and The Works stalls at 23. Add in the backlash over the video and the payola scandal and they abandon all plans for a US tour. I'll try to upload the USA Today article this weekend. |
| The Real Wizard 22.03.2014 00:32 |
slithybill wrote: Add in the backlash over the video and the payola scandal and they abandon all plans for a US tour.And realizing that Prenter had burned their radio bridges one by one. This really is a huge part of the equation. It's hard for most of us to imagine today, but radio was a MASSIVE means of promotion in the 70s and 80s, especially in the US. In the UK they had Top Of The Pops, but in the US it took years for Queen to build their reputation, as they had to do it city by city via radio. The same interview with the same questions every morning for months. But it paid off. By 1984 they weren't on MTV (Break Free was binned), and without radio there to help them out their chances of playing to half empty arenas were pretty high. So they pulled the plug and considered other places like South Africa, and went back to Australia for the first time since 1976. Not to mention playing to half a million people in Rio. A lot of things led up to the 84 US tour being pulled and effectively eliminating Queen from public consciousness. Even though the Break Free video was what it was, Queen were still a big name, and a well promoted tour is always possible no matter how bad your last album or single was - just ask Bowie in 1987. Even after Hot Space came out, the 82 tour was the only time Queen consistently got good concert reviews. Body Language couldn't kill their stage show. Something else had to be responsible. Break Free and Capitol payola were biggies, but it seems pretty clear that Prenter was the final straw. But the question is - had the 84 US tour even happened, would that have really changed their overall fortunes? I'll try to upload the USA Today article this weekend.Well done ! Looking forward to it. |
| brENsKi 22.03.2014 07:04 |
and also factor in....that america is huge - a potential audience of just under 200million? - when you rule out the very old and the very young. So there was still a market for 20,000 seater venues at say, 20 major cities - good music will still pull an audience |
| Ren Sen 22.03.2014 07:50 |
AMEN ! |
| slithybill 23.03.2014 16:32 |
The Real Wizard wrote:slithybill wrote: Add in the backlash over the video and the payola scandal and they abandon all plans for a US tour.And realizing that Prenter had burned their radio bridges one by one. This really is a huge part of the equation. It's hard for most of us to imagine today, but radio was a MASSIVE means of promotion in the 70s and 80s, especially in the US. In the UK they had Top Of The Pops, but in the US it took years for Queen to build their reputation, as they had to do it city by city via radio. The same interview with the same questions every morning for months. But it paid off. By 1984 they weren't on MTV (Break Free was binned), and without radio there to help them out their chances of playing to half empty arenas were pretty high. So they pulled the plug and considered other places like South Africa, and went back to Australia for the first time since 1976. Not to mention playing to half a million people in Rio. A lot of things led up to the 84 US tour being pulled and effectively eliminating Queen from public consciousness. Even though the Break Free video was what it was, Queen were still a big name, and a well promoted tour is always possible no matter how bad your last album or single was - just ask Bowie in 1987. Even after Hot Space came out, the 82 tour was the only time Queen consistently got good concert reviews. Body Language couldn't kill their stage show. Something else had to be responsible. Break Free and Capitol payola were biggies, but it seems pretty clear that Prenter was the final straw. But the question is - had the 84 US tour even happened, would that have really changed their overall fortunes?I'll try to upload the USA Today article this weekend.Well done ! Looking forward to it. |
| slithybill 23.03.2014 16:35 |
The Real Wizard wrote:I agree. I didn't mean to discount the impact that Paul Prenter's piss poor "press relations" had.slithybill wrote: Add in the backlash over the video and the payola scandal and they abandon all plans for a US tour.And realizing that Prenter had burned their radio bridges one by one. This really is a huge part of the equation. It is interesting to look at the grosses from the Hot Space tour.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hot_Space_Tour#Box_office_score_data Assuming these figures on Wikipedia are accurate, virtually all of their shows in Europe were sold out. In North America only 7 venues were 80% capacity or more. Then in Japan they nearly sold out all 7 dates. I wonder if ticket sales in the US would have been better if they had toured here first (before the Body Language/Hot Space "backlash" had a chance to take hold and set in). |
| slithybill 23.03.2014 16:44 |
Here's the article from USA Today dated March 26, 1984. |
| musicland munich 23.03.2014 17:09 |
^great Thanks ! |
| LucasDiego 23.03.2014 20:40 |
great article! |
| another one diets the bust 24.03.2014 05:20 |
Surprisingly, everyone mentions Body Language as Hot Space's downfall in the US, but i think that did already come earlier, as Body Language was quite a mediocre hit there. If we compare chart positions overseas from 1980 to 1982, we get the following: Crazy Little Thing Called Love # 1 (Billboard and Cash Box) US # 1 CA vs. # 2 EU (# 2 UK) Save Me (for whatever reason not released in the US) # 32 CA vs. # 25 EU (# 11 UK) Play The Game # 42 (Billboard) and # 38 (Cash Box) US # 19 CA vs. # 17 EU (# 14 UK) Another One Bites The Dust # 1 (Billboard and Cash Box) US # 1 CA vs. # 12 EU (# 7 UK) Need Your Loving Tonight # 44 (Billboard) and # 66, ouch (Cash Box) US # 36 CA (no release in Europe) Flash # 42 US (Billboard) and # 39 (Cash Box) US # 19 CA vs. # 10 EU (# 10 UK) - this seems to have been Queen's biggest hit in the German speaking countries Under Pressure # 29 (Billboard) and # 22 (Cash Box) US - now that is already strangely low, but apparently only in the States! - # 3 CA vs. # 1 EU (# 1 UK) Body Language # 11 (Billboard and Cash Box) US # 3 CA vs. # 11 EU (# 25 UK) Calling All Girls # 60, ouch (Billboard) and # 61, ouch again (Cash Box) # 33 CA vs. Las Palabras De Amor, unfortunately i don't have any EU chart position for this, # 17 UK - this was the first Queen song to become #1 in PL's young chart Back Chat didn't chart neither in the US nor in CA, and apparently not in the EU either, and only became # 40 UK - this only seemed to have barely hit the Top20 in IE and ZA With this said, Queen's positions in the US and the UK both were rather poor lately, but while in the EU Queen recovered, that abruptly ended states-side after Radio Gaga already didn't chart too well. In became a major hit throughout Europe as did A Kind Of Magic later, but that one didn't even make the US Top40 - in fact apart from the Show Must Go On / Bohemian Rhapsody (re-release) none of their singles did (if they even charted!), as far as i can tell not even a related release like Living On My Own (remix), which became a massive hit throughout Europe, but went completely unnoticed in the US. The low sales on the Hot Space tour would even undermine its lack of success in the States. When did Peter Prenter come into action, 1984? Queen might have already been knocked overseas, even if Body Language fared far better there than it did here. |
| slithybill 24.03.2014 13:39 |
Thanks for the chart stats. I hadn't looked at them in that light before. I've read different dates of when Paul Prenter was Freddie's personal manager. I can't recall if I've ever seen any "official" timeline though. |
| Stelios 24.03.2014 16:08 |
My theory is that even if Hot Space was a big hit in the US, Queen would eventually loose their funbase and cretability there. I am Greek but i have the feeling that Americans have a mentality in music much different than UK or Europe. They want their rockers to be pure, something like Eagles. They respond to labels/boxes/categories much more strictly. From the way they respond to their flag to their ethics in generall ( it has to do with the way their country was structured) they need and therefore use SYMBOLS. Things that make them collide as a nation.Their youth/pop coulture follows the same pattern. Or at least it used to. Queen became far too diverse and versatile for the Americans so they couldn't provide IDENTITY. Of course Queen were always diverse but at least they were stretching in the rock n roll realm. After AnotherONBTD ( even it was a major succes), Hot Space and the I want to break free video to the American concious they became something blurry. They were everything so therefore they standed for nothing. Their decline was almost inevitable in the US becouse Queen's signature became an "abstract concept" like real art most of the times is. |
| brENsKi 24.03.2014 17:49 |
Stelios wrote: My theory is that even if Hot Space was a big hit in the US, Queen would eventually loose their funbase and cretability there. I am Greek but i have the feeling that Americans have a mentality in music much different than UK or Europe. They want their rockers to be pure, something like Eagles. They respond to labels/boxes/categories much more strictly. From the way they respond to their flag to their ethics in generall ( it has to do with the way their country was structured) they need and therefore use SYMBOLS. Things that make them collide as a nation.Their youth/pop coulture follows the same pattern. Or at least it used to. .Sorry Stelios. Really have to disagree with you on this. Why? I can name several gay/bi rock stars who America never turned against Bowie, Elton, Michael Stipe, Billy Joe Armstrong, Rob Halford (Judas Priest), B52s (Fred Schneider, Ricky Wilson, and Keith Strickland), Pet Shop Boys.....oh yeah and one Adam Lambert. BTW - way to go -boxing ALL Americans as redneck fundamentalist intolerant(s). |
| Mike G 25.03.2014 03:18 |
brENsKi wrote:Stelios wrote: My theory is that even if Hot Space was a big hit in the US, Queen would eventually loose their funbase and cretability there. I am Greek but i have the feeling that Americans have a mentality in music much different than UK or Europe. They want their rockers to be pure, something like Eagles. They respond to labels/boxes/categories much more strictly. From the way they respond to their flag to their ethics in generall ( it has to do with the way their country was structured) they need and therefore use SYMBOLS. Things that make them collide as a nation.Their youth/pop coulture follows the same pattern. Or at least it used to. .Sorry Stelios. Really have to disagree with you on this. Why? I can name several gay/bi rock stars who America never turned against Bowie, Elton, Michael Stipe, Billy Joe Armstrong, Rob Halford (Judas Priest), B52s (Fred Schneider, Ricky Wilson, and Keith Strickland), Pet Shop Boys.....oh yeah and one Adam Lambert. BTW - way to go -boxing ALL Americans as redneck fundamentalist intolerant(s). |
| Mike G 25.03.2014 03:23 |
Listening to Dee Snider on That Metal Show recently, He's a huge Queen fan, and said he doesn't even consider the later Queen albums to be Real Queen albums, that's pretty much how American fans think of the 80's ....Except for The Game of course....He said the same with Zeppelins last few albums... |
| Mike G 25.03.2014 04:05 |
another one diets the bust wrote: Surprisingly, everyone mentions Body Language as Hot Space's downfall in the US, but i think that did already come earlier, as Body Language was quite a mediocre hit there. If we compare chart positions overseas from 1980 to 1982, we get the following: Crazy Little Thing Called Love # 1 (Billboard and Cash Box) US # 1 CA vs. # 2 EU (# 2 UK) Save Me (for whatever reason not released in the US) # 32 CA vs. # 25 EU (# 11 UK) Play The Game # 42 (Billboard) and # 38 (Cash Box) US # 19 CA vs. # 17 EU (# 14 UK) Another One Bites The Dust # 1 (Billboard and Cash Box) US # 1 CA vs. # 12 EU (# 7 UK) Need Your Loving Tonight # 44 (Billboard) and # 66, ouch (Cash Box) US # 36 CA (no release in Europe) Flash # 42 US (Billboard) and # 39 (Cash Box) US # 19 CA vs. # 10 EU (# 10 UK) - this seems to have been Queen's biggest hit in the German speaking countries Under Pressure # 29 (Billboard) and # 22 (Cash Box) US - now that is already strangely low, but apparently only in the States! - # 3 CA vs. # 1 EU (# 1 UK) Body Language # 11 (Billboard and Cash Box) US # 3 CA vs. # 11 EU (# 25 UK) Calling All Girls # 60, ouch (Billboard) and # 61, ouch again (Cash Box) # 33 CA vs. Las Palabras De Amor, unfortunately i don't have any EU chart position for this, # 17 UK - this was the first Queen song to become #1 in PL's young chart Back Chat didn't chart neither in the US nor in CA, and apparently not in the EU either, and only became # 40 UK - this only seemed to have barely hit the Top20 in IE and ZA With this said, Queen's positions in the US and the UK both were rather poor lately, but while in the EU Queen recovered, that abruptly ended states-side after Radio Gaga already didn't chart too well. In became a major hit throughout Europe as did A Kind Of Magic later, but that one didn't even make the US Top40 - in fact apart from the Show Must Go On / Bohemian Rhapsody (re-release) none of their singles did (if they even charted!), as far as i can tell not even a related release like Living On My Own (remix), which became a massive hit throughout Europe, but went completely unnoticed in the US. The low sales on the Hot Space tour would even undermine its lack of success in the States. When did Peter Prenter come into action, 1984? Queen might have already been knocked overseas, even if Body Language fared far better there than it did here. |
| Mike G 25.03.2014 04:08 |
another one diets the bust wrote: Surprisingly, everyone mentions Body Language as Hot Space's downfall in the US, but i think that did already come earlier, as Body Language was quite a mediocre hit there. If we compare chart positions overseas from 1980 to 1982, we get the following: Crazy Little Thing Called Love # 1 (Billboard and Cash Box) US # 1 CA vs. # 2 EU (# 2 UK) Save Me (for whatever reason not released in the US) # 32 CA vs. # 25 EU (# 11 UK) Play The Game # 42 (Billboard) and # 38 (Cash Box) US # 19 CA vs. # 17 EU (# 14 UK) Another One Bites The Dust # 1 (Billboard and Cash Box) US # 1 CA vs. # 12 EU (# 7 UK) Need Your Loving Tonight # 44 (Billboard) and # 66, ouch (Cash Box) US # 36 CA (no release in Europe) Flash # 42 US (Billboard) and # 39 (Cash Box) US # 19 CA vs. # 10 EU (# 10 UK) - this seems to have been Queen's biggest hit in the German speaking countries Under Pressure # 29 (Billboard) and # 22 (Cash Box) US - now that is already strangely low, but apparently only in the States! - # 3 CA vs. # 1 EU (# 1 UK) Body Language # 11 (Billboard and Cash Box) US # 3 CA vs. # 11 EU (# 25 UK) Calling All Girls # 60, ouch (Billboard) and # 61, ouch again (Cash Box) # 33 CA vs. Las Palabras De Amor, unfortunately i don't have any EU chart position for this, # 17 UK - this was the first Queen song to become #1 in PL's young chart Back Chat didn't chart neither in the US nor in CA, and apparently not in the EU either, and only became # 40 UK - this only seemed to have barely hit the Top20 in IE and ZA With this said, Queen's positions in the US and the UK both were rather poor lately, but while in the EU Queen recovered, that abruptly ended states-side after Radio Gaga already didn't chart too well. In became a major hit throughout Europe as did A Kind Of Magic later, but that one didn't even make the US Top40 - in fact apart from the Show Must Go On / Bohemian Rhapsody (re-release) none of their singles did (if they even charted!), as far as i can tell not even a related release like Living On My Own (remix), which became a massive hit throughout Europe, but went completely unnoticed in the US. The low sales on the Hot Space tour would even undermine its lack of success in the States. When did Peter Prenter come into action, 1984? Queen might have already been knocked overseas, even if Body Language fared far better there than it did here. |
| Mike G 25.03.2014 04:09 |
It didn't go through again |
| The Real Wizard 25.03.2014 05:48 |
Yeah, it's a forum bug. When that happens, follow these steps: -click back on your browser -right click / copy what you wrote -return to your post -click on the the left of the three buttons to edit -right click / paste |
| Stelios 25.03.2014 07:39 |
brENsKi wrote:brENsKi where on earth you read Freddie's homosexuality in my post? I was talking about music/youth culture in the us and the concept of identity through music and style.Stelios wrote: My theory is that even if Hot Space was a big hit in the US, Queen would eventually loose their funbase and cretability there. I am Greek but i have the feeling that Americans have a mentality in music much different than UK or Europe. They want their rockers to be pure, something like Eagles. They respond to labels/boxes/categories much more strictly. From the way they respond to their flag to their ethics in generall ( it has to do with the way their country was structured) they need and therefore use SYMBOLS. Things that make them collide as a nation.Their youth/pop coulture follows the same pattern. Or at least it used to. .Sorry Stelios. Really have to disagree with you on this. Why? I can name several gay/bi rock stars who America never turned against Bowie, Elton, Michael Stipe, Billy Joe Armstrong, Rob Halford (Judas Priest), B52s (Fred Schneider, Ricky Wilson, and Keith Strickland), Pet Shop Boys.....oh yeah and one Adam Lambert. BTW - way to go -boxing ALL Americans as redneck fundamentalist intolerant(s). As for the above names you mentioned: 1) Bowie was not exactly rock and came out as bisexual when it was a trend to be. And he lied. He is straight. 2) Elton also came out as bi, he married ( a woman) and is a solo artist most people recognise more as " a man and his piano". And he is very attached to that persona. 3)Michael Stipe kept a low profile in R.E.M. and only came out much later still keeping a moslty asexual persona. 4)Billy Joe Armstrong may talked about his bisexualied but he is married to a woman. 5) Rob Halford. This is a special case. Heavy Metal followers are mostly intersted in their genre nomatter what. They are very loyal to the Heavy Metal spirit and Halford never "betrayed" that. He also came out much later in his carrer. 6)Pet Shop Boys were of course not rock. They reprsesent a genre that sexuality is fluid/irrelevant.They are playing in the asexual field of electronica/club culture. 7) Adam Lambert. An alltogether different generation.He came out from the start and he represent nothing more than himshelf "pop-glam diva" and that is convinient is some terms. And again my post was not about sexuality. But if you want to bring that element into the converstation Mercury had a very strong audacity towards sexuality. He brought homomasculinity into the field (during the 80's) combined to some digree with his 70's campiness. And that's a lot ( for some people) to swallow becouse it underlines ambiguity in all its glory. |
| brENsKi 25.03.2014 08:32 |
@Stelios apols - misinterpreted your "They want their rockers to be pure, something like Eagles. They respond to labels/boxes/categories much more strictly" comment. as regards your replies re: Bowie, REM, Elton and Billy Joe. No i think YOU are definitely wrong on this. Bisexuality is not defined as "living and having a sexual relationship with people of both sexes simultaneously" it's a sexual preference - much like being gay or straight. doesn't mean you can't be married and be with one person tho...just that you have a sexual orientation, that's all. On that basis - Elton and Michael Stipe have both declared their gay orientation since the height of their careers. - Elton 1983, Stipe about 1990ish. Bowie declared himself being bisexual since about 1972/3 - getting married doesn't change that - only thing that would change this is if he came out and said "I am now straight" Again Billy Joe - same thing |
| The Real Wizard 25.03.2014 14:56 |
brENsKi wrote: it's a sexual preference - much like being gay or straight.Oh god no. Being gay or straight is a matter of biology. Homosexuality has been observed in hundreds of species of animals, and we're merely one of them. On that basis - Elton and Michael Stipe have both declared their gay orientation since the height of their careers. - Elton 1983, Stipe about 1990ish.Agreed on Stipe, but Elton was past his peak at that point. I'd say he peaked 73-75. By 83 he hadn't had a good record in 5 years - Blue Moves was probably the last solid one, but a lot of people missed out on it because he came out as bi to Rolling Stone a few weeks prior to its release. Too Low For Zero was almost a return to form in 84, largely because he brought back his old band. Kiss The Bride - what a great track. |
| Stelios 26.03.2014 04:44 |
@brENsKi You say : "Bisexuality is not defined as "living and having a sexual relationship with people of both sexes simultaneously" it's a sexual preference - much like being gay or straight." Of course it is. But this is how an informed person in LGBT issues perceives it today. We are talking ( Bowie, Elton) about the seventies and they were artists. So bisexuality as a statement could be perceived differenetly. It was the " sexual revolution days" and it was the music bussines. So bi could mean over-sexual ( rock stars as supposed to be) like a " i fuck whatever it mooves", or as an artist thing " i am above gender- i can fall in love with the spirit of a person, not the genetelia". Velvet Goldmine ( the film) depicts that trend and the hole androgyny is cool attitude during the 70's. As for getting married to the opposite sex ,when before had came out as bi (Billy Joe , Bowie), it does make a difference even to a subconscious level. Its mainstreaming the thing. Society provides a safe net. Its like forgiving to some point the "gay urges" of the person becouse eventually he/she did the right thing. And as for Michael Stipe it prooves that society indded made a progress into LGBT issues but again his off-key/ poetic/ asexual persona helped a lot. R.E.M. were sophisticated/introvert/arty enough , providing a safer field for Stipe to expose more controversial sides of himshelf like a poet does, unlike Queen who reached for the Rock gods/legends status. |
| Stelios 26.03.2014 05:09 |
@The Real Wizard 1)"Oh god no. Being gay or straight is a matter of biology. Homosexuality has been observed in hundreds of species of animals, and we're merely one of them." Sexuality (including bisexuality) is NOT (only) a biology thing. It's a 1)genetic/hormonal 2)psychological 3)social/environmental. And to every single person these factors are varied in "weight" to the resault of the orientation and also blend together so you can't really depict the main reason as "that one played the key role in this case". 2)"Homosexuality has been observed in hundreds of species of animals." Indded, but its more bisexuality that has been observed in animals. Animals seems to go on sexual-phaces like pre-mature/adulthood e.t.c. Also sexuality in animals(hundreds of species) is more fluid than sexuality as we tend to look at it in humans. |
| malicedoom 26.03.2014 07:51 |
Another thank you for posting that USA Today article! |
| Mike G 26.03.2014 14:02 |
Let's try this again,,,,,This is a popular discussion here on Queenzone over the years. In my opinion why Queen lost the states is nothing to do with sexuality, maybe that prenter guy had a little something to do with it...But it was mainly the songs and change of direction the fans didn't like...AOBTD and The Game in general didn't lose many fans, yea, they didn't love it like SHA and Opera but most liked it...That album gained them many new fans...The problem obviously came with Hot Space, AOBTD style but not as good...HS is when the old fans Finally jumped ship, while the newer Fans moved on because the album wasn't a very good dance album...Then came The Works, Radio Ga Ga was a decent hit that got radio play, but the album wasn't on the level of their 70's work....They also didn't tour to promote the album...Usually when a band announces a tour is when fans get excited and the new record starts selling better...Of course I want to break free being banned on MTV didn't help matters....So the original Question, did Queen lose the States, because they lost Freddie?...yes!...because they lost his creativity as a songwriter...The same for Brian...Compare Freddie and Brian songs from the 70's and 80's.... |
| Saint Jiub 26.03.2014 21:08 |
Mike G wrote: Let's try this again,,,,,This is a popular discussion here on Queenzone over the years. In my opinion why Queen lost the states is nothing to do with sexuality, maybe that prenter guy had a little something to do with it...But it was mainly the songs and change of direction the fans didn't like...AOBTD and The Game in general didn't lose many fans, yea, they didn't love it like SHA and Opera but most liked it...That album gained them many new fans...The problem obviously came with Hot Space, AOBTD style but not as good...HS is when the old fans Finally jumped ship, while the newer Fans moved on because the album wasn't a very good dance album...Then came The Works, Radio Ga Ga was a decent hit that got radio play, but the album wasn't on the level of their 70's work....They also didn't tour to promote the album...Usually when a band announces a tour is when fans get excited and the new record starts selling better...Of course I want to break free being banned on MTV didn't help matters....So the original Question, did Queen lose the States, because they lost Freddie?...yes!...because they lost his creativity as a songwriter...The same for Brian...Compare Freddie and Brian songs from the 70's and 80's....... good thing that Roger's songwriting carried Queen after Hot Space with 9 top 20 hits: Radio Ga Ga, One Vision, A Kind of Magic, Breakthru, The Invisible Man, Innuendo, These Are the Days of Our Lives, Heaven for Everyone and Let Me Live. |
| The Real Wizard 26.03.2014 23:35 |
Stelios wrote: Sexuality (including bisexuality) is NOT (only) a biology thing. It's a 1)genetic/hormonal 2)psychological 3)social/environmental. And to every single person these factors are varied in "weight" to the resault of the orientation and also blend together so you can't really depict the main reason as "that one played the key role in this case".Yes, indeed. But as it stands right now, the overwhelming majority of the research is in favour of nature over nurture. |
| Mike G 27.03.2014 09:28 |
Roger didn't carry queen after Hot Space...Most of those songs weren't hits in America....Innuendo wasn't written by Roger alone...Only most of the lryics was his...musically Freddie wrote most of it...Roger did write the biggest hits With Ga Ga and Magic, but Freddie and Brian still were writing the best songs...It's a Hard Life and Hammer to Fall were the best tracks on The Works...Those two songs were pretty close to their 70's heyday....A kind of Magic had Who wants to live forever and Princes of the universe as the best songs....One Vision wasn't a roger song either, as you could tell Freddie had a big impact on the song...Have you ever watched them in the studio recording it?......Even if Roger came up with the original idea.it was Freddie that took it over...The bottom line is Freddie and Brian were and always will be what was special about that Band.... |
| Vocal harmony 27.03.2014 10:07 |
By who's measure are you claiming those songs you listed to be the best on the works? You have an opinion, like everyone, but I doubt the band would agree. They would never pick a weak or under par song to be a lead single. They never did before The Works. As for Roger writing the songs you mentioned, yes he did. If he had not presented the band with those ideas, then the band or as you pointed out Freddie wouldn't have had what he had to work with. Yes Freddie wrote, most of, the music for the song Innuendo. But with out Roger"s input the song would not have existed. Freddies input in the studio is without question in the 70's. But by the 80's he had other things to occupy his time, solo recordings, bars, nightclubs etc. He spent less time than the other three on working on Queen. As for the One Vision film. It kind of centers around a conversation behind e mixing desk cut with short bursts of film of the band recording. It would be inaccurate to conclude that the whole session for that song was like that. Or that it is a 100% accurate representation of every Queen recording session. |
| Stelios 27.03.2014 13:01 |
@ Vocal Harmony "He (Freddie) spent less time than the other three on working on Queen." I believe this not include The Miracle sessions, but still, is it true for the other part of the 80's? |
| Mike G 27.03.2014 13:12 |
Vocal harmony wrote: By who's measure are you claiming those songs you listed to be the best on the works? You have an opinion, like everyone, but I doubt the band would agree. They would never pick a weak or under par song to be a lead single. They never did before The Works. As for Roger writing the songs you mentioned, yes he did. If he had not presented the band with those ideas, then the band or as you pointed out Freddie wouldn't have had what he had to work with. Yes Freddie wrote, most of, the music for the song Innuendo. But with out Roger"s input the song would not have existed. Freddies input in the studio is without question in the 70's. But by the 80's he had other things to occupy his time, solo recordings, bars, nightclubs etc. He spent less time than the other three on working on Queen. As for the One Vision film. It kind of centers around a conversation behind e mixing desk cut with short bursts of film of the band recording. It would be inaccurate to conclude that the whole session for that song was like that. Or that it is a 100% accurate representation of every Queen recording session.Of course it's all opinion Mr. Brilliant.....and my opinion of what made Queen special was the singer and guitarist....roger and John obviously contributed good things, but too say Roger carried Queen in the 80's is bullshit...I already said Freddie's songwriting went downhill in the 80's...but that's also opinion right?...you state it like it's a fact....Brian also wasn't the same as a guitarist and writer in my opinion..but he still was better than Roger. IMO, Roger as a drummer went downhill more than anything..Listen to him in the 70's, then listen to his weak drumming in the 80's... |
| brENsKi 27.03.2014 13:46 |
fact is that they all got far too comfortable in the 80s - that kind of wealth can give rise to two negative influences: 1. complacency - you think you can do no wrong - so you start to tread water 2. lots of attention from "outside" influences the band suffered from 82-89 on both of the above the song writing/production and musicianship suffered loads....just think how easy it became to "programme" something rather than play the actual instrument we all know what "distractions" freddie had, Brian's marriage split and the whole Anita thing consumed him, Roger became the archetypal rockstar/playboy, and even John had two brushes with the courts over his motoring indiscretions - especially with driving while drunk |
| Mike G 27.03.2014 15:49 |
brENsKi wrote: fact is that they all got far too comfortable in the 80s - that kind of wealth can give rise to two negative influences: 1. complacency - you think you can do no wrong - so you start to tread water 2. lots of attention from "outside" influences the band suffered from 82-89 on both of the above the song writing/production and musicianship suffered loads....just think how easy it became to "programme" something rather than play the actual instrument we all know what "distractions" freddie had, Brian's marriage split and the whole Anita thing consumed him, Roger became the archetypal rockstar/playboy, and even John had two brushes with the courts over his motoring indiscretions - especially with driving while drunkI agree, Brian even said that he would never work so hard for a song, like he did in the SHA/ANATO days....I think that sums up Freddie as well....They were so creative in the early days, Of course I'm talking about Freddie And Brian....Roger was not as creative Obviously, but that was good thing...they needed those simple Rockers as well as the brilliant stuff. In the 80's Freddie needed to get off Prince and Jackson's influence...Tears for fears and all that crap he was listening to...In those last 4 years he finally snapped out of it....Barcelona and Innuendo were great...The miracle not so much... |
| Sheer Brass Neck 27.03.2014 21:40 |
Mike G. wrote: Let's try this again,,,,,This is a popular discussion here on Queenzone over the years. In my opinion why Queen lost the states is nothing to do with sexuality, maybe that prenter guy had a little something to do with it...But it was mainly the songs and change of direction the fans didn't like...AOBTD and The Game in general didn't lose many fans, yea, they didn't love it like SHA and Opera but most liked it...That album gained them many new fans...The problem obviously came with Hot Space, AOBTD style but not as good...HS is when the old fans Finally jumped ship, while the newer Fans moved on because the album wasn't a very good dance album...Then came The Works, Radio Ga Ga was a decent hit that got radio play, but the album wasn't on the level of their 70's work....They also didn't tour to promote the album...Usually when a band announces a tour is when fans get excited and the new record starts selling better...Of course I want to break free being banned on MTV didn't help matters....So the original Question, did Queen lose the States, because they lost Freddie?...yes!...because they lost his creativity as a songwriter...The same for Brian...Compare Freddie and Brian songs from the 70's and 80's.... This and Brenski's follow up are spot on. Success, complacency, lack of hunger and shitty songs are a bad combo. |
| Vocal harmony 28.03.2014 12:17 |
Mike G wrote: Of course it's all opinion Mr. Brilliant.Well mr not so Brilliant it doesn't change the fact that RT wrote more of the songs that defined Queens later out put as singles more then Freddie or Brian. As for changing the point you were making into a RT didn't play as well in the 80's. Yes he did. Did FM? Not really he got Fred Mandel to play parts that he would have played five years before. It's a Hard Life isn't a great song when stacked up with what FM wrote in the 70's. It's very much Queen by numbers in comparison. Even by the standards of The Works it's no better than Ga Ga or HTF |
| Mike G 28.03.2014 13:53 |
listen, My problem was when someone said Roger carried Queen in the 80's, after Hot Space...Radio Ga Ga was a big hit, and a good pop song...But he only wrote 1 and half songs for that album...How is that carrying Queen?....His drumming was pretty weak as well...A Kind Of Magic he wrote a big hit, and a nice pop song, but only wrote 2 songs on the whole album...The other "don't lose your head" being one of Queen's worse songs...His drumming was non exsistent on that album, How is that carrying Queen?....I like Breathru, but Invisible Man was dreadful, but at least Brians solo was great....how is that carrying Queen?....I like Roger , but he's barely ever mentioned with the great drummers, like a pert for example...If anybody carried Queen in the 80's it was Freddie's voice...His voice made average pop songs sound better than they actually were...Remember, I'm passed the fanboy stage for any performer...but I tell it the way it is...No one mentions Roger like they do Freddie and brian, I'm just stating facts.... |
| Mike G 28.03.2014 14:04 |
Aside from Freddie's performance what was so great about I Want to Break Free?....Musically Queen were average in the 80's, they relied on Freddie's Voice to make these average songs good...Innuendo was a great album, but his drumming was pretty weak by rock standards...Almost ruining some great songs...Listen to NOTW, SHA and Songs like Dead On Time, and entertain you from Jazz...That's what a Rock Drummer suppose to sound like...From 1980 on, Roger was very disappointing as a drummer...Name more than 2 or 3 drummers that cite roger as as a major influence...Can You?...Now Freddie and Brian I could name dozens...I like roger, but hate when people say shit like roger carried Queen, that shit makes me laugh... |
| Mike G 28.03.2014 14:07 |
Vocal harmony wrote:you made my point, Yes, Ga Ga was good and on par with those two tracks I mentioned, but how is that carrying Queen?...I didn't say Roger Had No Impact...These are the days of our lives is one of my favorite Queen Songs...Mike G wrote: Of course it's all opinion Mr. Brilliant.Well mr not so Brilliant it doesn't change the fact that RT wrote more of the songs that defined Queens later out put as singles more then Freddie or Brian. As for changing the point you were making into a RT didn't play as well in the 80's. Yes he did. Did FM? Not really he got Fred Mandel to play parts that he would have played five years before. It's a Hard Life isn't a great song when stacked up with what FM wrote in the 70's. It's very much Queen by numbers in comparison. Even by the standards of The Works it's no better than Ga Ga or HTF |
| Saint Jiub 28.03.2014 20:19 |
From 1984 onward ... Roger spawned 2X as many UK top 10 Queen singles as Freddie, Brian and John combined. Roger spawned as many UK top 20 Queen singles as Freddie, Brian and John combined. UK Top 10 Singles - RT has 8, FM has 2, JD has 1, and BM has 1 UK Top 20 Singles - RT has 9, BM has 5, FM has 2.5, JD has 1.5 and David Richards has 1 RT - Radio Ga Ga 2 JD - Want to Break Free 3 FM - It's a Hard Life 6 BM - Hammer To Fall 13 RT - One Vision 7 RT - A Kind Of Magic 3 FM/JD - Friends Will Be Friends 14 BM - I Want It All 3 RT - Breakthru 7 RT - The Invisible Man 12 RT - Innuendo 1 BM - Headlong 14 BM - The Show Must Go On 16 RT - These Are The Days Of Our Lives 1 RT - Heaven For Everyone 2 FM - A Winter's Tale 6 BM - Too Much Love Will Kill You 15 RT - Let Me Live 9 David R. - You Don't Fool Me 17 |
| Supersonic_Man89 29.03.2014 05:04 |
The thing is Queen were very black and white with their songwriting credits, yet we know they don't paint the full picture. We know without Freddie's input on RGG & AKOM, they wouldn't have been hits. The fact that TATDOOL was Freddies last single and HFE was their first really posthumous single, gave both songs huge pushes up the charts which helped Roger's track record. I'm also not convinced Roger should get sole credit for OV, LML & Innueno. |
| brENsKi 29.03.2014 06:26 |
i think this ^ does Roger a huge disservice. You're forgetting one key thing here. They ALL contributed hugely to each others' songs in different ways. Secondly, Freddie may have been contributing to the songs you cite, from a singers' POV - ie lyrical changes that are easier to sing - that's not necessarily taking anything away from RT's writing ability is it? Surely without his musical writing ability there is no song. Lastly, have you listened to Roger's solo stuff? there's some cracking tunes in there - even the Cross stuff has some excellent songs |
| Vocal harmony 29.03.2014 10:49 |
brENsKi wrote: i think this ^ does Roger a huge disservice. You're forgetting one key thing here. They ALL contributed hugely to each others' songs in different ways. Secondly, Freddie may have been contributing to the songs you cite, from a singers' POV - ie lyrical changes that are easier to sing - that's not necessarily taking anything away from RT's writing ability is it? Surely without his musical writing ability there is no song. Lastly, have you listened to Roger's solo stuff? there's some cracking tunes in there - even the Cross stuff has some excellent songsA point well made. I think Mike G has chosen not to exept that in the mid to late 80's it was RT's song writing and ideas that gave Queen. A lot of their chart presence and their for kept the band in the public eye, so the argument saying that Roger carried Queen in this period is justified. As far as playing goes, Mike are you confusing production and recorded sound with actual playing? |
| Saint Jiub 29.03.2014 10:53 |
Supersonic_Man89 wrote: The thing is Queen were very black and white with their songwriting credits, yet we know they don't paint the full picture. We know without Freddie's input on RGG & AKOM, they wouldn't have been hits. The fact that TATDOOL was Freddies last single and HFE was their first really posthumous single, gave both songs huge pushes up the charts which helped Roger's track record. I'm also not convinced Roger should get sole credit for OV, LML & Innueno.I was not giving Roger sole credit for these songs, but rather gave him credit for being the primary spark that spawned these songs. |
| Mike G 29.03.2014 17:15 |
brENsKi wrote: i think this ^ does Roger a huge disservice. You're forgetting one key thing here. They ALL contributed hugely to each others' songs in different ways. Secondly, Freddie may have been contributing to the songs you cite, from a singers' POV - ie lyrical changes that are easier to sing - that's not necessarily taking anything away from RT's writing ability is it? Surely without his musical writing ability there is no song. Lastly, have you listened to Roger's solo stuff? there's some cracking tunes in there - even the Cross stuff has some excellent songsThe cross sucked big time.....I never said Roger didn't do good things in his career, I said he didn't carry Queen...Freddie's voice carried Queen in the 80's...Roger wrote 1 good song per album in the 80's...That's not carrying a band...Hits aren't the whole story....I'm giving the man credit, I'm not calling him crap or garbage, but he didn't carry Queen...Did Freddie carry Queen in the 70's?....He had the most impact, but he didn't carry them...Brian wrote some of their best work of that era... |
| brENsKi 29.03.2014 17:21 |
it really depends on what YOU call "carrying" my interpretation of carrying is who maintained the profile of the group the most - in a worldwide sense in the 70s - without any doubt at all - Freddie SSOR/Killer Queen/Bo Rhap/STL/Champions/Bicycle Race/Don't Stop Me Now/CLTCL that's 8 out of 13 singles and on that basis - in the 80s - Roger indisputably carried the band's song-writing burden also |
| Stelios 30.03.2014 06:38 |
@brENsKi "and on that basis - in the 80s - Roger indisputably carried the band's song-writing burden also " I think it was more of an unofficial collaboration between Roger and Freddie that carried Queen inot the 80's. It has been said that Roger was the one from the group more aware of the trends. Now the 80's was more trend-oriented than the 70's so in that aspect its logical Roger could be more in-tuned with what was happening. Still i feel it was Freddie's talent that gave Roger's ideas the edge to become hits. 1)Innuendo : clearly a collaboration 2)A Kind of Magic: we know the story and clearly Roger's original though a nice song is far from the catchy/infectious final result. 3) One Vision. I think the "making-of" footage shows Freddie almost "took over" the song. 4)These Are the Days of Our Lives. Although a great song it was Freddie's performance and what was happening at the time that took the song to anothel level. 5) Let Me Live. The gospel side of the song is what makes it stand out. And we can assume who was responsible for this. 6)Radio Ga Ga. I think i remember reading Roger presented a guitar based song. The final resoult, a futuristic pop/electronica number( far from what the original must have been) was Freddie's idea.Perhaps Freddie's input here was more significant than on any of the above. It seems to me that Freddie's talent transformed into the 80's from original writter to writter/producer. Someone who could see and take to fruition basic ideas. Its like he had a more clear vision of what would work as soon as he had the skeleton from another member . On the contrary, his own more complex and idiosyncratic writting was at odds with what the 80's needed. |
| brENsKi 30.03.2014 08:56 |
but whose ideas were they? Roger's -without his ideas - they had nothing and conversly - in the 70s, they also collaborated on each other's work - but i don't hear you crediting Roger with input to Freddie's songs. Lastly - "Let Me Live" - "The gospel side of the song is what makes it stand out. And we can assume who was responsible for this" really? (your words Stelios) - if so then we don't need to assume who was responsible - we know who was....Janis Joplin...that's who |
| Mike G 30.03.2014 09:19 |
Stelios wrote: @brENsKi "and on that basis - in the 80s - Roger indisputably carried the band's song-writing burden also " I think it was more of an unofficial collaboration between Roger and Freddie that carried Queen inot the 80's. It has been said that Roger was the one from the group more aware of the trends. Now the 80's was more trend-oriented than the 70's so in that aspect its logical Roger could be more in-tuned with what was happening. Still i feel it was Freddie's talent that gave Roger's ideas the edge to become hits. 1)Innuendo : clearly a collaboration 2)A Kind of Magic: we know the story and clearly Roger's original though a nice song is far from the catchy/infectious final result. 3) One Vision. I think the "making-of" footage shows Freddie almost "took over" the song. 4)These Are the Days of Our Lives. Although a great song it was Freddie's performance and what was happening at the time that took the song to anothel level. 5) Let Me Live. The gospel side of the song is what makes it stand out. And we can assume who was responsible for this. 6)Radio Ga Ga. I think i remember reading Roger presented a guitar based song. The final resoult, a futuristic pop/electronica number( far from what the original must have been) was Freddie's idea.Perhaps Freddie's input here was more significant than on any of the above. It seems to me that Freddie's talent transformed into the 80's from original writter to writter/producer. Someone who could see and take to fruition basic ideas. Its like he had a more clear vision of what would work as soon as he had the skeleton from another member . On the contrary, his own more complex and idiosyncratic writting was at odds with what the 80's needed.I have a feeling the more this thread goes, the more people will agree with me....I have no idea where anyone gets the idea Innuendo was A roger song...It's a known fact it started as a Jam between Brian, Roger, and John...Freddie heard the Jam and started singing...then took over the rest of the song musically...Roger wrote most of the Lyrics, except the middle section "Be Free with your temple" part, which was written by Freddie...You could credit all four members equally, or say it's a Freddie/roger song...It Definitely wasn't a Roger only song... |
| Mike G 30.03.2014 09:40 |
brENsKi wrote: but whose ideas were they? Roger's -without his ideas - they had nothing and conversly - in the 70s, they also collaborated on each other's work - but i don't hear you crediting Roger with input to Freddie's songs. Lastly - "Let Me Live" - "The gospel side of the song is what makes it stand out. And we can assume who was responsible for this" really? (your words Stelios) - if so then we don't need to assume who was responsible - we know who was....Janis Joplin...that's whoLet me live sounds more like a Freddie or Brian song than Roger....Remember, this argument started because someone said Roger carried Queen in the 80's...Then I disagreed....Roger wrote 1 song on the Works....A good song, but Freddie reworked it and made it into a hit, and Machines was a roger/Brian song was average at best...How is that carrying Queen?...The same for AKOM...1 good song and 1 crappy song...How is that carrying Queen?...No question Roger finally started writing a few hits...Ga Ga was his only top 40 in the states....It's not all about hits, Brian didn't write many big hits in the 70's, but would you dare compare 80's roger with 70's Brian?....Every documentary Roger only gets mentioned for going to Jail drunk. No one say's how brilliant he was...or his drumming ability...Even the ANATO documentary, it's all Freddie and Brian's brilliance...Look at the passion when Brian talks about the Freddie songs..compare that when he talks about a roger song...Brian is a very smart man..... + not all about hits...Bria/n |
| Lord Gaga 30.03.2014 12:07 |
Where's Sebastian when you need him?? A few clarifications: 1. Radio Ga Ga was always a synth-based song. Roger said he locked himself in a studio for three days with a synthesizer, and came out with Radio Ga Ga. It wasn't entirely to Freddie's liking, so he took it upon himself to craft it into what it finally became. So, Roger wrote the song, and Freddie rearranged it. 2. Similar instance with A Kind Of Magic. 3. Let Me Live started off as a jam in 1983. Freddie would never live to see it worked on again; Roger, Brian, and John added their parts in 1994/1995. It's safe to assume that Roger wrote his verse and the bridge, and Brian wrote his verse. To call it a full-blown Roger composition is odd, and something I'd never seen before. THAT BEING SAID, if Another Piece Of My Heart IS a Roger song, and that was what Queen, Rod Stewart, and Jeff Beck were jamming on in '83, then that would be a new story I'd never heard. (If only Gary Taylor, Greg Brooks, or Joshua J. Macrae could confirm...) |
| Vocal harmony 30.03.2014 12:45 |
Mike G wrote: |
| Saint Jiub 30.03.2014 13:40 |
brENsKi wrote: but whose ideas were they? Roger's -without his ideas - they had nothingExactly. |
| Saint Jiub 30.03.2014 13:47 |
Mike G wrote: It Definitely wasn't a Roger only song...No one said anything about these songs being Roger only. However, Roger was the primary spark to create these songs. |
| Saint Jiub 30.03.2014 13:56 |
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| Lord Gaga 30.03.2014 17:51 |
Vocal harmony wrote: This being the case, why were there so many weak spots on Mr Bad Guy. An album on which FM was free to exercise his skills as a writer, arranger, producer and artist to the limits. On that album he often falls into the trap of wanting or trying to make things sound like Queen.I honestly never thought of that. I had always wondered why Mr. Bad Guy was such a crappy album – it honestly sounds like a bunch of half-baked demos – and I was then going to counter, "Well, Barcelona is a brilliant album!" But he had collaborators on that album; Mike Moran really put an impressive stamp on it, and David Richards did a great deal of work, too. Plus, Freddie was stepping out of his comfort zone – instead of writing straightforward pop and disco songs as on Mr. Bad Guy, here he was writing for a different voice. I really do think that if Freddie had submitted the songs for Mr. Bad Guy as Queen songs, the band would have done wonders on them. |
| The Real Wizard 30.03.2014 18:16 |
^ this. |
| Stelios 31.03.2014 06:14 |
And since we are on the subject of Roger (and Freddie) : Freddie Mercury+Roger Taylor Interview 1984 RARE!!!! (terrible quality but bouth light a cigarette from Freddie's match at the end) |
| Stelios 31.03.2014 06:38 |
Vocal harmony wrote:[/QUOTE This being the case, why were there so many weak spots on Mr Bad Guy. An album on which FM was free to exercise his skills as a writer, arranger, producer and artist to the limits. On that album he often falls into the trap of wanting or trying to make things sound like Queen. The mention of his complex writing style has little to do with any of this. He had largely left that behind in the 70's. Songs like CLTCL and Body Language can't be called complex, as with most of the Mr Bad Guy album. It proves FM could write straight forward songs, but could he do it better than his band mates? I don't think so. RT's solo songs have less of a Queen feel, cover a broader subject matter and are for the most part better than a lot of FM's solo work. I would say that this is proof that in the 80's at least RT was at least FM's equal as a songwriter Answer: Freddie always talked about friction and tention within the band that brought the best of them. He was the one to mention that the most. Lacking that element on Mr. Bad Guy he was competing with himshelf. I bet he lost interest quite soon. On Barcelona he really had something to proove therefore the rise of quality. Freddie was a competitive guy ( in a good way) and he really needed strong stimulation to flourish. As for complex/"simple" writer he had a mentality of extremes even in that territory. In a way it was again a way to express his versatility.Perhaps during the 80's he sould have stayed more on a middle ground rather than prooving he could be the absolute opposite of himshelf if he wanted. |
| Mike G 31.03.2014 08:35 |
I'm Still waiting for all those musicians who were influenced by Roger. I asked name more than 3 drummers who cited Roger as an influence?...I'm still waiting and as a songwriter? |
| Lord Gaga 31.03.2014 09:05 |
What does that have to do with Queen losing the States, or his songwriting in the 80s? |
| Mike G 31.03.2014 09:15 |
We already know why Queen lost the states...Fans didn't like the new style...I was young at the time, but do remember people talking about Queen going disco and hating the new album "Hot Space." Roger's songwriting wasn't any better in the 80's than in the 70's...just because he had the ability to write hits. He was still a hit and miss songwriter...one good song and a bad one on each album...The 70's actually was better for him...Tenament Funster, I'm in love with my Car, Sheer Heart attack, Modern times RNR....were better than what he did in the 80's....What made Freddie great in the 70's was his ability to write hits and songs like Black Queen that no one's heard of.. |
| Mike G 31.03.2014 09:30 |
All of their songwriting went down in the 80's....People on Queenzone like to rag on Freddie and Brian the most, in this thread it happens to be Freddie...because they were the most popular and Influencial....Don't misunderstand me, Freddie wasn't Queen...Brian wasn't Queen...They all played their part...but equals they were not...Or else Roger would be mentioned like other great drummers are....You really think just because Roger wrote Ga Ga and Magic he was a better songwriter in the 80's than in the 70's?....Influence in order, Freddie, Brian, Roger, John....No matter what any Roger fans say's on Queenzone, it doesn't change that fact....Personally that's my order as well...I do like John at least equally to Roger...spread your Wings is Excellent.. |
| Mike G 31.03.2014 09:34 |
Lord Gaga wrote: What does that have to do with Queen losing the States, or his songwriting in the 80s?Because if he was so great in the 80's he would get praised more, or at least mentioned as a influence on other musicians....the way Freddie and Brian did in the 70's... |
| Saint Jiub 31.03.2014 11:38 |
Except for the hardcore fans, Queen's popularity has always been about their hits, and Roger was the primary force in 2/3's of their top 10 hits after 1983. Would Queen have been nearly as popular in the UK with only IaHL, IWtBF, IWIA and aWT as top 10 hits? Probably not. That Roger is not in the same league as drummer God's like Neil Peart, and that he had penned throwaways like DLYH and M(BtH) is irrelevant to this discussion, in light of Queen's reliance on singles with crafty hooks. |
| brENsKi 31.03.2014 11:47 |
Mike G wrote: .Don't misunderstand me, Freddie wasn't Queen...Brian wasn't Queen...They all played their part...but equals they were not...Or else Roger would be mentioned like other great drummers are.....and that ^ is the basis for your argument? comparison to his peers? I can kill that argument with one name - someone who's knows as a singer/songwriter first and foremost - but also plays the drums in an arguably bigger world band than queen right now Step Forward Don Henley...no-one anywhere in drummer circles cites Don Henley as a drumming influence, but there are plenty of bands out their that copy his song writing/arrangement and even his vocals sorry Mike, your argument has just been destroyed |
| Mike G 31.03.2014 12:33 |
brENsKi wrote:Who arguing?...I'm Just stating facts....Watch anything to do with Queen, it's all about the Guitarist and singer...The only time Roger gets a mention is when they talk about how good looking he was, and how he got drunk and spent the night in Jail.....Watch a Rush video, it's pretty equal between the 3 of them....That's all I'm saying, ...By the way, I never heard anyone copy Roger!...My main argument was Roger didn't "carry" Queen in the 80's....He was important because he came up with some good tunes, while Freddie wanted too make a crappy dance album with Mr. Bad Guy...most of his ideas went towards that crap album...Brian was only good for 1 or 2 songs at that point...Roger and John were important in that regard...No one even mentioned John, He only wrote 2 of the biggest hits of the 80's...IWTBF and Bites the dust...Did John Carry Queen?Mike G wrote: .Don't misunderstand me, Freddie wasn't Queen...Brian wasn't Queen...They all played their part...but equals they were not...Or else Roger would be mentioned like other great drummers are.....and that ^ is the basis for your argument? comparison to his peers? I can kill that argument with one name - someone who's knows as a singer/songwriter first and foremost - but also plays the drums in an arguably bigger world band than queen right now Step Forward Don Henley...no-one anywhere in drummer circles cites Don Henley as a drumming influence, but there are plenty of bands out their that copy his song writing/arrangement and even his vocals sorry Mike, your argument has just been destroyed |
| brENsKi 31.03.2014 13:13 |
Mike G wrote:.Don't misunderstand me, Freddie wasn't Queen...Brian wasn't Queen...They all played their part...but equals they were not...Or else Roger would be mentioned like other great drummers are......Mike you mentioned Roger not being mentioned like all great drummers - and i referred to Don Henley - fact is BOTH are drummers in their respective bands - but neither is known world-wide for their drumming - that doesn't diminish their contribution at band level - BOTH wrote a big slice of the hits. that pretty much debunked that element of your argument, but you still don;t accept it Mike G wrote:We already know why Queen lost the states...Fans didn't like the new style...I was young at the time, but do remember people talking about Queen going disco and hating the new album "Hot Space." People on Queenzone like to rag on Freddie and Brian the most, in this thread it happens to be Freddie...because they were the most popular and Influencial... You've answered your own question - in a nutshell Queen lost the States because of the direction the band went in...and as you cite Freddie & Brian as being the most influential - then THEY must shoulder most of the blame for losing the States, Which is why people generally blame them both. You can't blame the two "junior" songwriters - because they were bothered enough to write some hits during the 80s it was Roger & John that dragged the band's ass out of the sh*t during the 80s. Not going to bother to try discussing this with you anymore, because as you can see above you contradict your own points given long enough, and in any case, you seem more preoccupied with cherry-picking credit/blame where you see fit. |
| Holly2003 31.03.2014 13:50 |
Don't know if Rog carried Queen in the 1980s but I'm pretty sure if Radio Ga Ga wasn't a hit that would've been the end of the band. They made it clear in interviews at the time that if The Works sold as badly as Hot Space then there wasn't much point in keeping Queen going. So maybe Roger saved Queen :) |
| ploughman 31.03.2014 14:37 |
This debate has taken a lot of turns, but I'd like to make one more. I have been thinking a lot of HotSpace/Works -era Queen. To me it seems, like someone already said a few sites back, Queen were declining as an entity during the early 80's. It might been the fact that the stomaches were really full by Hot Space. They were meticulously working on their material durin ANATO/ADATR-days, but early 80's the method was more like "snort some lines of cocaine and but the drum machine on and see what happens". That sucks, but it seems to happen to the most intelligent persons. You dont have anything to prove or fight for. The live-performances suffered too. Freddies excess during this mid-80's period did detoriate his voice and Rogers use of synthdrums during Works-tour made the whole tour really crappy sounding in general. I doubt it was succes anywhere. Playing that tour in USA wouldn't have helped them. Only the better concerts during Magic Tour were anywhere near the quality they did, lets say 1981 tours. So actually, sucks to say this, Freddie's illness was a saving grace in a way. He really got back the inspiration/enthusiasm and need to prove. It is where only few bands have succeeded in, to bring back the quality after huge success and creative drought. |