| Sebastian 09.12.2013 06:08 |
Amidst all the speculation about Freddie and his last recording, the few bits that have been revealed suggest very little input from Roger during those sessions. 'Lost Opportunity' is the only track out of those four to feature human drums at that point. 'Mother Love' and 'A Winter's Tale' were programmed and 'You Don't Fool Me' had only its bare vocal bones and that was it... maybe some synth chords by either Freddie or John, but no Maylor involvement as far as it's been reported. Roger's the only band member not to have written or co-written any of those tracks and he only actually played on one of them in those days; there are no 1991 backing vocals from Roger in any of those four songs (what he did on 'A Winter's Tale' came in the 1993-1995 period). So what did he do? John, conversely, co-wrote a song (that's more than what he did on the 'Innuendo' album) and played bass on two recordings; Brian wrote one, co-wrote another and played both guitars and keyboards on two tracks. Freddie wrote one, co-wrote two, sang three and possibly played some keyboards as well. |
| Ghostwithasmile is BACK! 09.12.2013 06:47 |
Great detective work. Perhaps he was more with the Cross those days. |
| Martin Packer 09.12.2013 07:28 |
What's actually amazing is how MUCH Freddie did. |
| pestgrid 09.12.2013 09:33 |
Roger was busy with the cross at this time....two bands....where does rodg get his energy....? |
| cmsdrums 09.12.2013 09:46 |
Good point Sebastian. However, I would counter that I suppose it wasn't unusual when Queen were recording for the writer of any given song to lay down a lot of the basis instruments, vocals, arrangements etc.. in demo/working form before the others got to contribute to it. The fact that Roger hadn't contributed a song at that point could be attributed to heavy work with The Cross at that point, and so he was essentially 'waiting in the wings' for the others to present their working versions of songs before starting any work on them that they wanted him to do. The fact that he didn't do this sooner bearing in mind Freddie's ailing health at that point is surprising, although I suppose there's nothing to say that he wasn't actually present at all those sessions, but they perhaps went with the already existing drum machine and keys parts from Freddie/John/Brian's demos so that they could get the most out of Freddie, rather than waste time Roger re-doing the drums, adding his vocals etc.. at that point, when those could easily be done later. Indeed, it does look as if Freddie was still very much a driving force in both creativity and volume of output, despite the circumstances. It is suprising how little Roger submitted in the way of full songs in total after Shove It to up to just before Made In Heaven. Yes, he was working with The Cross, but after Shove It! (which is essentially a solo album), he only penned two tracks on Mad Bad, and two? (working from memory!) to Blue Rock. If he didn't contribute any 'full' songs to either Innuendo or Made In Heaven he certainly had a fallow period Queen-wise (albeit he did produce Happiness? at that time). |
| Sebastian 09.12.2013 11:01 |
cmsdrums wrote: The fact that Roger hadn't contributed a song at that point could be attributed to heavy work with The Cross.He was working with The Cross in 1990 (touring and promoting the MBaDtK album), but that didn't stop him from writing two full songs for 'Innuendo', contributing lyrically to other two, musically to another one, playing drums on six full songs, keyboards, programming, singing backing vocals... that's a hell of a lot more than what he did in 1991. Moreover, it's not as if he did a lot for The Cross in '91 either: two songs, a bit of another one, didn't play any instruments... he was far more involved on earlier albums of both bands, even though sessions and commitments often overlapped... and he was also going through marriage and divorce in the late 80's. cmsdrums wrote: Indeed, it does look as if Freddie was still very much a driving force in both creativity and volume of output, despite the circumstances.It could've been *because of* the circumstances. cmsdrums wrote: It is suprising how little Roger submitted in the way of full songs in total after Shove It to up to just before Made In Heaven.Not really: he wrote two tracks that were included on 'The Miracle' (that's as much as Brian did), and two that were included on 'Innuendo' (that's twelve times as much as John did). That's four full album songs (plus most lyrics of another one, some lyrics for further two and part of the music of another one, and a B-Side) in a 2-year frame. |
| cmsdrums 09.12.2013 12:05 |
Put like that, I can see your points! :-) |
| brians wig 09.12.2013 14:03 |
pestgrid wrote: Roger was busy with the cross at this time....two bands....where does rodg get his energy....?Roger got his energy from Debbie. Hell, after a rumpy pumpy session I always have a lot of energy.... ;-) |
| aion 09.12.2013 15:46 |
Sorry but I think they all contributed very very little at this time. I have never understood how is it possible that after Freddie asked the others to write songs for him, during a period of about six months Brian, Roger and John managed to write altogether... two songs. 2 songs in six months isn't exactly high speed songwriting. They didn't all write 2 songs separately, which would have still been a very small effort for a friend who was dying, but the three of them combined could come up with only two songs. It's a shame that they couldn't bother doing more as they were quite capable if they had only wanted. They should have had a much bigger pile of songs to work with already during the Innuendo sessions as Freddie's situation must have been very apparent all throughout 1990 and he wanted to keep working. As far as Roger's writing goes it's a pity that he didn't write for example Freedom Train earlier as that is an atmospheric piece of music that would have been a perfect fit on Made In Heaven. |
| A Word In Your Ear 09.12.2013 16:18 |
brians wig wrote:I don't, I just roll over and go to sleep...but that could be an age thing ;-)pestgrid wrote: Roger was busy with the cross at this time....two bands....where does rodg get his energy....?Roger got his energy from Debbie. Hell, after a rumpy pumpy session I always have a lot of energy.... ;-) |
| Sebastian 10.12.2013 05:21 |
aion wrote: Sorry but I think they all contributed very very little at this time. I have never understood how is it possible that after Freddie asked the others to write songs for him, during a period of about six months Brian, Roger and John managed to write altogether... two songs.Indeed. Freddie himself wrote two as well (one and two halves), which is just as much as what his bandmates did combined. Of course, there's the possibility of other tracks written but not used. |
| Lord Gaga 10.12.2013 08:03 |
There's the possibility too that Roger may have been emotionally affected by watching his friend wither away, and couldn't write anything of worth, or even write anything at all. Just because Freddie was willing to fight to the end doesn't mean that his bandmates were able to do so as admirably. |
| Ivo-1976 10.12.2013 13:45 |
Besides that Brian and Roger did all the promotion work for Innuendo in '91. |
| ploughman 11.12.2013 06:10 |
I have always been interested about the studio times between Miracle-Made In Heaven material. Miracle was done during one year period January 1988-Janyary 1989. During which time Roger was on the road with Cross and also in on of the interviews did mention "I really don't know if we are doing something with Queen ..ever.". Then Innuendo was done between 1989 (spring?) until 1990 (autumn?) and again Roger was away most of the time. Both of the albums do have considerable amount of programmed drums. Infact, are there any real LIVE drums on Miracle album, execpt on the songs "Khashoggi's Ship", "I Want It All" and "Was it All Worth It"? To mee it has always seemed that they must have either worked on a week basis. Like one week there and another week there OR otherwise they just weren't doing it as a band at all? So it was mainly Freddie and Brian and David Rochards doing sequencing? Does someone have any, more specific info on these late 1980's sessions? |
| Sebastian 11.12.2013 06:56 |
I used to have a website with those timelines and stuff. Anyway, John wrote a letter to the Fan Club in February 1989 claiming they were still working on what would become 'The Miracle'. Liner notes were wrong as usual. Sometimes sessions for 'The Miracle', 'Shove It', 'Barcelona' and 'Back to the Light' overlapped, as did sessions for 'Innuendo', 'Back to the Light', 'Macbeth' and 'Mad Bad and Dangerous to Know', and sessions for 'Back to the Light', 'Blue Rock', 'Made in Heaven' and 'Happiness'. 'Innuendo' sessions properly started in November 1989 at Mountain Studios, then they moved to Metropolis and continued on a semi-regular basis throughout the year. The March 1989 credit refers to either 'Delilah' having been started then, or perhaps 'All God's People' (it was included on promos for 'The Miracle' album), but from Spring to Autumn 1989 they were all involved in other things. 'Khashoggi's Ship', 'The Miracle', 'Too Much Love Will Kill You', 'Was It All Worth It' and most (not all) of 'I Want It All' have real drums, as do 'Innuendo', 'Don't Try So Hard', 'The Hitman' (except the synth part) and 'Days of Our Lives' (congas are programmed but drums aren't). 'Show Must Go On' is a mixture, as are several others from those days (e.g., 'Invisible Man' and 'Ride the Wild Wind'). 'All God's People' only has real drums for a small portion of the song, otherwise it's programmed. 'Headlong', 'I Can't Live with You', 'Delilah', 'Mother Love', 'Rain Must Fall', 'My Baby Does Me', 'Breakthru', 'Slightly Mad' and 'Party' are either completely or chiefly programmed, although Roger played some e-drums on 'Rain Must Fall' to emulate the Latin percussion. |
| Togg 11.12.2013 09:26 |
It would be interesting to know why he/they chose to replace real drums with programmed? Obviously some tracks benefit from the feel of programmed drums but others could have gone either way perfectly well, Headlong for instance |
| ploughman 11.12.2013 10:10 |
I read from Sound On Sound interview with David Richards (1989) that the programming was mainly done on the songs where there was a synth bass line or lots of computer programmed keyboards. It was impossible to sync live drums (if without a click-track) with programmed keys. So that's why Breakthru and Invisible Man are definitely drum machine. I can't Live With You is actually drum machine, but on that song you can hear that it doesn't work. That's why they did that re-take in 1997 with live drums. Its of course very natural that during the 1980's things changed within the band and also with the recording processes. Not all of them were at the studio and the songs were not actually rehearsed 4 weeks prior going to studio with the whole band (as was the case during 1970's) But there are still some songs which truly have Queen playing as a band. "I want It all" is one of them. It was actually finished before Miracle recording started so it was done like they used to do. link Later on they added sample on bass drum and snare drum and the keys of course. But otherwise this is the core of the song. David Richards did edit some sequences out however and comped some parts to make it shorter. The story of band playing Innuendo in the large Casino hall at Montreux is also one example of the "good old-days". But otherwise it seems that the times changed. Allthough they credited everything to "Queen" and said that they were closer than ever during that period, it seems that they really didn't do that much as a BAND anymore. Nothing like the composing of One Vision documentary shows us. |
| Sebastian 11.12.2013 10:20 |
ploughman wrote: "I want It all" is one of them. It was actually finished before Miracle recording started so it was done like they used to do.No it wasn't. It was *written* before the sessions began, but it was *recorded* during 'The Miracle' sessions. Not necessarily with a live backing track. ploughman wrote: The story of band playing Innuendo in the large Casino hall at Montreux is also one example of the "good old-days".That's how they *wrote* it, but when they *recorded* it they most likely used a metronome. Sometimes they tracked without a click (e.g., 'Was It All Worth It'), sometimes with it, and I suspect 'Innuendo' belongs to the latter group. ploughman wrote: Nothing like the composing of One Vision documentary shows us.And then again, John didn't actually write anything for that song, and Freddie wasn't present while the music was being composed. |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 11.12.2013 19:08 |
Well, are all spectulations, I think. All Good's people began for the second solo FM album, but Barcelona cancelled that. And later, were into Queen. Words of Mike Moran. Nobody knows, except them, what happens. |
| Sebastian 11.12.2013 20:50 |
Apocalipsis_Darko wrote: Well, are all spectulations, I think. All Good's people began for the second solo FM album, but Barcelona cancelled that. And later, were into Queen. Words of Mike Moran. Nobody knows, except them, what happens.Eye witnesses are always less reliable than physical evidence. MFK is on Queen, not Queen II, despite BHM claiming otherwise. So sometimes, it's not 'nobody knows, except them', as much as 'loads of people know, including them.' |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 11.12.2013 23:38 |
Well, Sebastian, if you have the proff, I would love to read it ;) |
| Sebastian 12.12.2013 07:40 |
Proof of what exactly? |
| aion 12.12.2013 10:56 |
Sebastian wrote:Indeed. Freddie himself wrote two as well (one and two halves), which is just as much as what his bandmates did combined. Of course, there's the possibility of other tracks written but not used.I know that I'm repeating myself but to me this just doesn't make sense. I mean they didn't know long Freddie had time and how long he would record, so they could have written songs all the way up till October, and if Freddie really asked the others to write more songs when they finished Innuendo, now that's 10 months. The three of them could have written over 50 songs in that time frame if that truly was Freddie's last request as we've been told and he was going to work until the end. It wouldn't have been a matter of disqualifying a song because it wasn't good enough, because from Freddie's point of view, I don't think he thought "well if I sing lots of songs now my pals are going to make a lot of money from me when I'm gone"... - more likely his idea would have been that by continuing to work he could keep his mind off from the inevitably coming death. So in that sense he would have sung anything and they wouldn't have been cutting out songs from a posthumous album. I guess I'm saying that Freddie's "request" to the others and the drama of working until the end has been heavily exaggerated and the few songs they did came about rather spontaneously. I think Freddie, Brian and John spent a couple of days or weeks in Montreux in May 91 and Roger wasn't present at all. Freddie had written A Winter's Tale which they worked on (the reason for them being there) and Freddie and John came up with You Don't Fool Me right there and then; it was little more than an improvisation, some synth lines and the bare lyrics that there are. While Freddie and Brian wrote Mother Love which turned out to be his last. I doubt that Freddie had any other sessions in the whole of 1991: these 2 and a half songs - of which none was finished - didn't need more than a couple of days and we are not aware of him singing any other songs during the whole year. No need to blame him/them of course, but probably Freddie worked on new material only about a week in May 1991 and never really even asked the others to provide new songs in an attempt to make a final album... |
| aion 12.12.2013 11:07 |
mistake |
| Sebastian 12.12.2013 16:12 |
aion wrote: ...and if Freddie really asked the others to write more songsJudging by the manuscript, Freddie wrote the first verse of 'Mother Love' and some few other lines here and there, even getting as far as to starting another verse which wasn't used. It seems like Brian took over from there and wrote the rest (two more verses plus most of the middle-eight), so maybe when Freddie pleaded 'write me anything and I'll sing it', it meant that he was asking Brian to feed him more lines to make 'Mother Love' a more complete song. Of course, some wishful fans took the 'write me anything' quote as a reason to believe Freddie was asking the others to write him full songs, and once QPL saw that as an opportunity to make the legend grow they went on board with it. aion wrote: The three of them could have written over 50 songs in that time frame if that truly was Freddie's last request as we've been told and he was going to work until the end.Keyword: if. Indeed, good point. Let's compare: * Freddie didn't think he'd live to see 'Innuendo' being released. Soon as it was, he returned to the studios with the idea of yet another album, but noticed this time he wouldn't manage, so he called it a day, left only three unfinished songs and gave his bandmates and David his blessing to finish them off after his death. * Queen fans were the only thing that mattered to Freddie. He loved them so much that he wanted to give them as much music as possible, so he asked Brian, John and Roger to write songs for him and kept singing until he was circling the drain for realsies. 'Winter's Tale' and 'Mother Love' were virtually sung from his deathbed, and his very last wish was that they'd release those tracks, otherwise his life, and his death, would've been in vain. The first version is more truthful, but the second one is more spectacular, dramatic and more likely to generate a bigger impact and more sales. Which one would they use? aion wrote: I guess I'm saying that Freddie's "request" to the others and the drama of working until the end has been heavily exaggerated and the few songs they did came about rather spontaneously.I totally agree. aion wrote: I think Freddie, Brian and John spent a couple of days or weeks in Montreux in May 91AFAIK, there were also sessions in January. Those sessions could've produced 'You Don't Fool Me' (the few bits recorded back then), 'Lost Opportunity' and perhaps a working version of 'A Winter's Tale'. The May ones were for finishing off 'A Winter's Tale' and doing 'Mother Love'. aion wrote: and Roger wasn't present at all.He probably was in January, as he played drums on 'Lost Opportunity'. I agree he probably missed the May one. Rufus had been born in March, so perhaps Roger didn't feel like travelling to Switzerland and leaving his new partner alone with the baby (well... he didn't have any problem in touring when Felix was a month old, but things had probably changed over the course of a decade). aion wrote: No need to blame him/them of course, but probably Freddie worked on new material only about a week in May 1991 and never really even asked the others to provide new songs in an attempt to make a final album...Well, more than a week I think, but yeah, definitely not months and months as they claim ... there's no place for truth in showbiz. |
| aion 13.12.2013 15:15 |
Sebastian wrote:AFAIK, there were also sessions in January. Those sessions could've produced 'You Don't Fool Me' (the few bits recorded back then), 'Lost Opportunity' and perhaps a working version of 'A Winter's Tale'. The May ones were for finishing off 'A Winter's Tale' and doing 'Mother Love'.I suppose you're right. It's reasonable that Freddie wrote A Winter's Tale in late 1990 or very early 91 and he wanted to record it as he was excited about his new song, justifiably, and that's why they went into the studio in January and then You Don't Fool Me and Mother Love were born from that. So basically one song turned into three but there was never intention to make a whole album -- if there was there would have definitely been more songs written. (Lost Opportunity is kind of irrelevant since it doesn't involve Freddie in any way as far as I know.) As for their lying, I wouldn't say that they deliberately set out to tell lies or build myths (not yet at least)... but they did promo for MIH four years after Freddie died and they must have remembered him as a trooper who worked as far as he could (even if that didn't really mean singing from his deathbed), and he did anyway work longer than was expected, doing basically Innuendo on borrowed time, three music videos in 91 and a few new songs. So they just exaggerated somewhat. |
| Sebastian 13.12.2013 19:13 |
aion wrote: So basically one song turned into three but there was never intention to make a whole albumAccording to contemporary reports by the OIQFC mag, their intention was to record B-Sides for the singles, but then they decided to save them for a future album. So, IMO, there *was* thought of a post-Innuendo album, but then they cancelled those plans when they realised Freddie wouldn't be able to manage this time (he lived enough to release 'Barcelona', 'Miracle' and 'Innuendo' but this one was one too many), so they returned to just leaving those tracks there, and then maybe (according to 1992 and 1993 reports) issuing them as a single or an EP once they were finished. Then they got more ambitious and decided to compile a full-length album, and we all know the rest. aion wrote: if there was there would have definitely been more songs written.Not if they changed their minds, which they probably did, and that's why only four songs were recorded after 'Innuendo', and one of them was still issued as B-Side. aion wrote: Lost Opportunity is kind of irrelevant since it doesn't involve Freddie in any way as far as I know.Well, he (and his estate later on) got 25% of the publishing, as it was credited to Queen (and most likely registered all four as authors as per their previous agreement). He may have played the synth although that's quite unlikely. So maybe that's why they did release that one in '91: they wouldn't need it for the posthumous album. aion wrote: As for their lying, I wouldn't say that they deliberately set out to tell lies or build myths (not yet at least)... but they did promo for MIH four years after Freddie died and they must have remembered him as a trooper who worked as far as he couldSo they didn't lie but they didn't tell the truth ... not a surprise, they both cheated on their wives, so they had a well-trained skill in exact words, false reassurance, half-truths and convenient mixed messages. aion wrote: three music videos in 91TBF, he only filmed two. 'Headlong' was released in '91 but shot in '90. aion wrote: So they just exaggerated somewhat.There's a nice quote from The Simpsons: 'A rabbi would never exaggerate! A rabbi composes; he creates thoughts, he tells stories that may never have happened, but he does not exaggerate!' Coincidentally enough, Google's just confirmed me the episode in question was aired exactly one month before Freddie died... and to add more useless Simpsons trivia, the last episode premiered during Freddie's lifetime was the one featuring Aerosmith. |
| matt z 14.12.2013 07:09 |
Sebastian wrote:Great conversation, I enjoyed the read and perspectives. Gives a lot to think about. All possibly happened. Also, could have TRIED the "give me anything" route and turned up with garbage. These subjective suggestions seem more plausibleaion wrote: So basically one song turned into three but there was never intention to make a whole albumAccording to contemporary reports by the OIQFC mag, their intention was to record B-Sides for the singles, but then they decided to save them for a future album. So, IMO, there *was* thought of a post-Innuendo album, but then they cancelled those plans when they realised Freddie wouldn't be able to manage this time (he lived enough to release 'Barcelona', 'Miracle' and 'Innuendo' but this one was one too many), so they returned to just leaving those tracks there, and then maybe (according to 1992 and 1993 reports) issuing them as a single or an EP once they were finished. Then they got more ambitious and decided to compile a full-length album, and we all know the rest.aion wrote: if there was there would have definitely been more songs written.Not if they changed their minds, which they probably did, and that's why only four songs were recorded after 'Innuendo', and one of them was still issued as B-Side.aion wrote: Lost Opportunity is kind of irrelevant since it doesn't involve Freddie in any way as far as I know.Well, he (and his estate later on) got 25% of the publishing, as it was credited to Queen (and most likely registered all four as authors as per their previous agreement). He may have played the synth although that's quite unlikely. So maybe that's why they did release that one in '91: they wouldn't need it for the posthumous album.aion wrote: As for their lying, I wouldn't say that they deliberately set out to tell lies or build myths (not yet at least)... but they did promo for MIH four years after Freddie died and they must have remembered him as a trooper who worked as far as he couldSo they didn't lie but they didn't tell the truth ... not a surprise, they both cheated on their wives, so they had a well-trained skill in exact words, false reassurance, half-truths and convenient mixed messages.aion wrote: three music videos in 91TBF, he only filmed two. 'Headlong' was released in '91 but shot in '90.aion wrote: So they just exaggerated somewhat.There's a nice quote from The Simpsons: 'A rabbi would never exaggerate! A rabbi composes; he creates thoughts, he tells stories that may never have happened, but he does not exaggerate!' Coincidentally enough, Google's just confirmed me the episode in question was aired exactly one month before Freddie died... and to add more useless Simpsons trivia, the last episode premiered during Freddie's lifetime was the one featuring Aerosmith. Btw. You mean the "FLAMING HOMER (MOE)" episode? ... I remember that like yesterday. Good God, I'm getting old. No wonder Maylor keep at it. Its a sense of position and value beyond "living" and mortality |
| Sebastian 14.12.2013 15:08 |
From the OIQFC mag: * Spring 1991: 'The band all went to Mountain Studios in Montreux in the second week of January. The idea was to work on some b-side tracks, but they loved the tracks they were working on so much that some of them will be saved and included on their NEXT album!' * Summer 1991 (a letter Brian wrote on 6th June): 'Freddie, John, Roger and I are back in Montreux soon, and *the* next Queen album is well on the way!!' * Summer 1991 (Information Page): 'The band have recently come back from a brief sojourn in peaceful Montreux, where they were working on some material for possible inclusion on their NEXT album! The work has only just begun, and they have no firm commitments to go back into studios this year, so we will not see a finished product until well into 1992. They are working again with David Richards.' * Autumn 1991 (letter Roger wrote in October): 'Aside from 4 new Queen tracks recorded earlier in Montreux there is Queen Greatest Hits II coming out this month (Oct).' * Autumn 1991 (Info Page): 'The band have done no more work as yet on their new material, it's not likely we will see anything at all from that until sometime in 1992.' * Summer 1992 (Info Page): 'As I mentioned last time there will be another Queen album sometime in 1992.' * Autumn 1992 (Info Page): 'I'm afraid that I made a bit of a cock-up in the last issue and made you all hopeful in vain! The proposed NEXT Queen album is NOT being released at the end of 1992, it will be much later.' * Autumn 1992 (a letter Rog wrote on 24th November): 'We hope to finish the last Queen studio LP (with Freddie's voice) at the end of '93, working together again.' |
| matt z 15.12.2013 06:03 |
Nothing to add, just a comment; I wonder why they don't consult you guys for archival stuff/musings/booklets when it's so obvious that the fan ship is so strong here You guys can itemize sources within a day or two. Maybe it's because consultations would suggest pay. .. I don't know. But bravo one again. |
| Sebastian 15.12.2013 09:26 |
I don't think it's about money, as a couple hundred or even thousand quid are nothing for those people. They probably spend more on blow and hookers each party than they'd do on having 10+ QZers on the payroll for a whole year (including benefits). Had the idiots in charge of 'The Lot' asked a couple of fans to proof-read and proof-hear (is that a word?) the product before releasing it, they would've saved themselves a fortune in correcting and replacing later on. My theory's that it's got more to do with 'arrogance' (not admitting someone 'outside' QPL could do a better job for less pay, at least in some areas) and/or the fact that more truthful research isn't necessarily wise from a commercial perspective ('Bo Rhap' sounds more impressive if they claim it's got 180 vocals than if they admit it's barely got more than 20). |
| Adam Baboolal 15.12.2013 17:59 |
You know Seb, for all the good you talk, you certainly undo it quite well with talk of, "both cheated on their wives, so they had a well-trained skill in exact words, false reassurance, half-truths and convenient mixed messages." Talk about low. |
| Sebastian 15.12.2013 19:21 |
Well ... it's true, though: they both did cheat. That's what's low. |
| david82 25.12.2013 08:02 |
Sebastian wrote: TBF, he only filmed two. 'Headlong' was released in '91 but shot in '90.Headlong was shot in 1990 (freddie in blue) and February (?) of 1991, when Freddie is in yellow. |
| br5946 03.01.2014 12:53 |
To add to your Simpsons rant, it's quite clear that Brian is oddly enough wearing a Bart T-shirt at one point in the 'Headlong' video. Just a random and somewhat appropriate fact. |
| Sebastian 03.01.2014 17:21 |
Brian used to spend several months a year in LA, where The Simpsons were immensely popular back then. They were also popular in Britain of course, but not at the same level. |
| Sebastian 14.12.2014 01:57 |
Bumped. |
| IanR 19.02.2015 10:51 |
I wonder if IWBTLY and MIH were vetoed by the band for inclusion on the Great Pretender / Freddie Mercury albums of 1992, with a view to re-recording them as Queen tracks? Born To Love You was a big solo hit for Fred, and quite a strange omission, unless Jim Beach had blocked them to give the band first-refusal. This could suggest that also Man Made Paradise, Love Me Like There's No Tomorrow, and There Must Be More may also have been contenders for MIH at that point in time. |
| tomchristie22 19.02.2015 17:47 |
Sebastian wrote: 'Bo Rhap' sounds more impressive if they claim it's got 180 vocals than if they admit it's barely got more than 20.Freddie said the 180 vocals thing it himself in 1977. Of course they didn't actually overdub the vocals sixty times, but it makes it a bit less straightforward when the fact is that it's not just QPL sensationalising, or Brian and Roger misremembering today - Freddie said it in an interview two years after it was recorded, and Roger agreed with him. |
| Holly2003 19.02.2015 18:23 |
Bumping your own thread is the equivalent of sniffing your own farts and declaring them magnificent. |
| IanR 20.02.2015 09:40 |
Is that the voice of experience speaking there, Holly? |
| Sebastian 20.02.2015 10:44 |
tomchristie22 wrote: Freddie said the 180 vocals thing it himself in 1977.He didn't. His exact words can be found here: link. From 1:10 to 1:15 he says, and I quote: 'I think between the three of us we sort of, we recreated a sort of 160- to 200-piece choir effect.' Keep in mind the key words: * Think (i.e., it wasn't an exact figure, but a ballpark one). * Recreated (i.e., they made it sound like there were 160 to 200 voices, when there weren't). * Effect * He didn't say 180. When Brian recreated a clarinet effect on 'Good Company' with his guitar, it doesn't mean he actually turned the guitar into a clarinet. It means it made it sound like a clarinet, without being a clarinet. Same here: they made it sound like a big choir, even though they didn't add an amount of overdubs anywhere near that figure. tomchristie22 wrote: Freddie said it in an interview two years after it was recorded, and Roger agreed with him.He didn't, for the reasons already explained. Also, when he said 'I dress to kill' he wasn't confessing to murder or manslaughter. Holly2003 wrote: Bumping your own thread is the equivalent of sniffing your own farts and declaring them magnificent.Not really, it's not. |
| Holly2003 20.02.2015 11:26 |
Sebastian wrote:That's inaccurate.tomchristie22 wrote: Freddie said the 180 vocals thing it himself in 1977.He didn't. His exact words can be found here: link. From 1:10 to 1:15 he says, and I quote: 'I think between the three of us we sort of, we recreated a sort of 160- to 200-piece choir effect.' Keep in mind the key words: * Think (i.e., it wasn't an exact figure, but a ballpark one). * Recreated (i.e., they made it sound like there were 160 to 200 voices, when there weren't). * Effect * He didn't say 180. When Brian recreated a clarinet effect on 'Good Company' with his guitar, it doesn't mean he actually turned the guitar into a clarinet. It means it made it sound like a clarinet, without being a clarinet. Same here: they made it sound like a big choir, even though they didn't add an amount of overdubs anywhere near that figure.tomchristie22 wrote: Freddie said it in an interview two years after it was recorded, and Roger agreed with him.He didn't, for the reasons already explained. Also, when he said 'I dress to kill' he wasn't confessing to murder or manslaughter.Holly2003 wrote: Bumping your own thread is the equivalent of sniffing your own farts and declaring them magnificent.Not really, it's not. Yes he did. No he wasn't. That's not true. A little to the left. Bingo! |
| RafaelS 20.02.2015 11:52 |
david82 wrote:Here we go again. Headlong was shot entirely in 1990. When the Innuendo EPK was filmed in 1990, BOTH parts with Freddie in blue shirt and yellow sweater were in it. The reason why people are saying that they were filmed in two different occasions, it's because of a moron who had a website (which is closed) and was spreading that false rumour out of ignorance or stupidity or both.Sebastian wrote: TBF, he only filmed two. 'Headlong' was released in '91 but shot in '90.Headlong was shot in 1990 (freddie in blue) and February (?) of 1991, when Freddie is in yellow. |
| miraclesteinway 20.02.2015 16:53 |
- they possibly were filmed on two different occasions, just both in 1990! |
| tomchristie22 20.02.2015 22:29 |
Sebastian wrote:Well, if we're going to cherry pick certain things they said within a frame of minutes...tomchristie22 wrote: Freddie said the 180 vocals thing it himself in 1977.He didn't. His exact words can be found here: link. From 1:10 to 1:15 he says, and I quote: 'I think between the three of us we sort of, we recreated a sort of 160- to 200-piece choir effect.' Keep in mind the key words: * Think (i.e., it wasn't an exact figure, but a ballpark one). * Recreated (i.e., they made it sound like there were 160 to 200 voices, when there weren't). * Effect * He didn't say 180. When Brian recreated a clarinet effect on 'Good Company' with his guitar, it doesn't mean he actually turned the guitar into a clarinet. It means it made it sound like a clarinet, without being a clarinet. Same here: they made it sound like a big choir, even though they didn't add an amount of overdubs anywhere near that figure.tomchristie22 wrote: Freddie said it in an interview two years after it was recorded, and Roger agreed with him.He didn't, for the reasons already explained. Also, when he said 'I dress to kill' he wasn't confessing to murder or manslaughter. Interviewer: 'Can you think how many times [how many overdubs] to get that number of people?' Roger: 'Well, divide 200 by 3'. ... Freddie: 'Cause I mean er, like, there was a section of "No, no, no" and we had to sort of do that, sort of, different escalating things, and we just sat there, going "No, no, no, no, no, no, no", about, I don't know, 150 times.' To reiterate, I agree that there definitely aren't that many vocals on the operatic section. However, in 1977, they were either exaggerating intentionally, or Freddie introduced the vague idea of it being upwards of 100 vocals and then the others agreed with it, having misremembered. Still, with the amount of times the three members repeat it, it can't just be a case of simple and momentary hyperbole. It's also clear that Freddie didn't just mean to say they were trying to sound like a 160-200 part choir - that's what he said initially, yes, but moments later he said plainly that he recalled them ovedubbing the 'No, no, no' part somewhere in the realm of 150 times. Again, since there's a lot of room for me to be misunderstood here, all I'm saying is that it seems the band believed that they'd overdubbed it this many times, when in fact they hadn't. For instance, they certainly would have had to redo sections in order to get them to perfection; thus, them having recorded a certain amount of overdubs doesn't mean the same amount appears on the final product. There's also the fact that the monotony and repetitiveness of layering the vocals would have certainly made it easy to misremember; it probably felt like it took a very long time. |
| Sebastian 21.02.2015 00:26 |
tomchristie22 wrote: Freddie: ...we just sat there, going "No, no, no, no, no, no, no", about, I don't know, 150 times.'Again, there are key words: 'about' and 'I don't know.' Moreover, as you correctly stated later on (sort of), doing something 150 times doesn't necessarily mean all 150 attempts were put together. tomchristie22 wrote: To reiterate, I agree that there definitely aren't that many vocals on the operatic section.That's the most important point. tomchristie22 wrote: However, in 1977, they were either exaggerating intentionally...Wouldn't be the first or last time such thing happened in show business. tomchristie22 wrote: or Freddie introduced the vague idea of it being upwards of 100 vocals.Except he didn't... he introduced the vague ideas of it having an *effect* of a 160- to 200-piece choir, and the idea of them going 'no no no no no' for about 150 times, but neither actually translates into the song having more (or less) than 180 simultaneous vocal overdubs. tomchristie22 wrote: Still, with the amount of times the three members repeat it, it can't just be a case of simple and momentary hyperbole.Because it's good for showbiz. Compare: 1 Bo Rhap was the first video ever made and the most expensive recording ever. It defied all conventions by having over 180 vocal overdubs recorded on 16-track analogue tape, lasting about seven minutes and having been played by Kenny Everett fourteen times on his radio programme. 2. Bo Rhap was preceded by many videos made by a number of acts, Queen included. It was an expensive recording, though it's nearly impossible to prove whether it was the most expensive one ever (even within the context of the band and album). It lacked some typical hit-single traits but had the benefit of some others, had about 20 simultaneous vocal overdubs on its 'fattest' bits, lasted less than six minutes (one of several hit singles to clock over four minutes) and was played by Kenny Everett four times on his radio programme. Statement 2 is far more truthful, but Statement 1 is far more spectacular. Guess which one the band, promoters and fans are gonna spread... tomchristie22 wrote: moments later he said plainly that he recalled them ovedubbing the 'No, no, no' part somewhere in the realm of 150 times..If we're going by what he said 'plainly,' he said 'about, I don't know,' therefore clearing up it wasn't an absolute or exact figure. Given how interesting and unorthodox that seven 'no' bit is, it is very likely that they had to try it out countless times in order to get it right. The actual claim of 150 is more of a ballpark calculation, similar to people saying 'Germany have won like a million world cups.' It's not meant to be taken literally. tomchristie22 wrote: Again, since there's a lot of room for me to be misunderstood here, all I'm saying is that it seems the band believed that they'd overdubbed it this many times, when in fact they hadn't.Not necessarily, for the reasons already explained. tomchristie22 wrote: For instance, they certainly would have had to redo sections in order to get them to perfection; thus, them having recorded a certain amount of overdubs doesn't mean the same amount appears on the final product. There's also the fact that the monotony and repetitiveness of layering the vocals would have certainly made it easy to misremember; it probably felt like it took a very long time.From a practical standpoint, it would've been far from sensible to actually layer sixty-plus iterations of every part. Too much distortion, too much bouncing, sound quality would've been seriously affected, and it wouldn't have necessarily sound any bigger. The approach Brian has described many times (the three of them singing each part, then doubling it and maybe tripling it before moving on to the next) makes far more sense. The way those three voices blended, plus some different mic positioning and reverb and voila: you get about two dozen overdubs *sound like* a couple hundred. That's the whole point: the *efffect.* |
| tomchristie22 21.02.2015 00:53 |
Hmm yeah, you're right. It seems like the band's statements in that interview were what began the 180 vocal idea which is so widely accepted and repeated now. |
| The Real Wizard 24.02.2015 10:16 |
Holly2003 wrote: Bumping your own thread is the equivalent of sniffing your own farts and declaring them magnificent.vs. Sebastian wrote: Compare: 1 Bo Rhap was the first video ever made and the most expensive recording ever. It defied all conventions by having over 180 vocal overdubs recorded on 16-track analogue tape, lasting about seven minutes and having been played by Kenny Everett fourteen times on his radio programme. 2. Bo Rhap was preceded by many videos made by a number of acts, Queen included. It was an expensive recording, though it's nearly impossible to prove whether it was the most expensive one ever (even within the context of the band and album). It lacked some typical hit-single traits but had the benefit of some others, had about 20 simultaneous vocal overdubs on its 'fattest' bits, lasted less than six minutes (one of several hit singles to clock over four minutes) and was played by Kenny Everett four times on his radio programme. Statement 2 is far more truthful, but Statement 1 is far more spectacular. Guess which one the band, promoters and fans are gonna spread...I rest my case.tomchristie22 wrote: moments later he said plainly that he recalled them ovedubbing the 'No, no, no' part somewhere in the realm of 150 times..If we're going by what he said 'plainly,' he said 'about, I don't know,' therefore clearing up it wasn't an absolute or exact figure. Given how interesting and unorthodox that seven 'no' bit is, it is very likely that they had to try it out countless times in order to get it right. The actual claim of 150 is more of a ballpark calculation, similar to people saying 'Germany have won like a million world cups.' It's not meant to be taken literally.tomchristie22 wrote: For instance, they certainly would have had to redo sections in order to get them to perfection; thus, them having recorded a certain amount of overdubs doesn't mean the same amount appears on the final product. There's also the fact that the monotony and repetitiveness of layering the vocals would have certainly made it easy to misremember; it probably felt like it took a very long time.From a practical standpoint, it would've been far from sensible to actually layer sixty-plus iterations of every part. Too much distortion, too much bouncing, sound quality would've been seriously affected, and it wouldn't have necessarily sound any bigger. The approach Brian has described many times (the three of them singing each part, then doubling it and maybe tripling it before moving on to the next) makes far more sense. The way those three voices blended, plus some different mic positioning and reverb and voila: you get about two dozen overdubs *sound like* a couple hundred. That's the whole point: the *efffect.* |
| The King Of Rhye 24.02.2015 10:41 |
Sebastian wrote: When Brian recreated a clarinet effect on 'Good Company' with his guitar, it doesn't mean he actually turned the guitar into a clarinet.Yeah.....Brian doesn't turn guitars into things, he turns things (and people?) into guitars! (see "The Spree Of Brian May" by Grand Gestures) link |
| Sebastian 17.07.2015 02:38 |
Bumped. |