| cmsdrums 02.12.2013 02:52 |
The Telegraph article states the following - do we now take this as final word on the subject?: "For years, fans have argued about which was Freddie’s last song, with members of the band and studio engineers contradicting each other. Now, The Telegraph can disclose, the mystery has been solved. The dates were not always written down, but after searching through the labels on old boxes of reel to reel tape, Mr Shirley-Smith says it was definitely Mother Love, recorded between May 13 and 16 1991" Playing 'Devil's Advocate' here, but there will be an argument that this statement is correct for his last vocal on material currently released, but is there anything to say he stayed in Montreux after that and may therefore have recorded more that has yet to see the light of day? |
| Togg 02.12.2013 03:56 |
Can open...worms everywhere.... |
| cmsdrums 02.12.2013 04:15 |
Indeed Togg! :-) My first reaction is that Justin Shirley-Smith is basing his 'fact' purely on the dates written on the tape box; my memory is that there is a track sheet shown by David Richards in footage from the sessions that has a date of 22 May 1991 on for Mother Love - this does not necessarily mean vocals were recorded up to that date, but if the the tape box label is going to be used the sole arbitor of truth here, surely the track sheet could be argued for in the same way?!? |
| Kacio 02.12.2013 07:57 |
So Mother Love was the last song with vocals Freddie and it was recorded between 13-16 May 1991. Freddie was the last time in the studio half a year before his death...? |
| Supersonic_Man89 02.12.2013 08:33 |
Peter Freestone always says it was a month before his death? Although saying that Peter could be getting confused...on a radio documentary entitled 'The Last Days of Freddie Mercury', he said he completed FOUR complete tracks in 1991...surely he means three? |
| Kacio 02.12.2013 08:37 |
This is a strange situation |
| Vocal harmony 02.12.2013 09:38 |
I would imagine that the missing last verse, which BM sang would point to it being the last song. But being unfinished doesn't necessarily mean last. It is a very emotive song, the story that it was Freddies last vocal adds to that. The mix up of dates proves the date it was worked on, but as cmsdrums points out, we don't know who was there on any of those dates and what they were recording. |
| Sebastian 02.12.2013 11:25 |
Justin's no less reliable than David, Brian, Phoebe, etc. But he's also no more reliable than David, Brian, Phoebe, etc. AFAIC, May 1991 could've easily been Freddie's very last session, or maybe he recorded some stuff after that. Nothing's been categorically confirmed or denied IMO. |
| Raffy 02.12.2013 11:25 |
Maybe he recorded vocal tracks for Mother Love on May '91 then in the following months he only went in Switzerland to stay in his brand new house and occasionally went in the studio only for the post-production phase of this particular song (or songs recorded in 1991) up 'till October of the same year, as he wasn't able to sing as he wanted. So sad... :( Of course these are only assumptions, no-one really knows the truth except a small circle of people like David Richards, Shirley-Smith, Peter Freestone, Bri, Rog & maybe John but even in this case so much time has passed and people tend to forget, even things so crucial and significant as this. So they rely on the date reported on the labels of reel to reel tape old boxes but anything could've happened in those final 5 months... |
| Thistle 02.12.2013 12:41 |
I have to agree that if he was unable to finish Mother Love, it's unlikely that he went back to record anything else afterwards. That pretty much confirms a rough time for it. It's feasible that Raffy's hypothesis above is correct, however - he may have been going into the studio towards November for post-production, perhaps even supervisory purposes. So ALL accounts could, in-fact, be correct one way or another. Still confusing, but I think we may as well take it that the last vocals were May '91. UNLESS there's a box marked for a much later month that's yet to be found, and he did actually finish the track. Doubt it, but worms definitely still wriggling lol. |
| TRS-Romania 03.12.2013 02:22 |
I don't buy it that the last vocals were recorded in May 1991. Freddie was getting sicker between May-November 1991 but he regularly visited Montreux during this timeframe. ”We were in Switzerland Just 3 weeks before. Of course he was sick, but he felt good enough to go there. He even was working in the studio” Excerpt From: Lesley-Ann Jones. I am guessing myself that the last vocals for Mother Love were not recorded in May 1991, but perhaps even up to/including November 1991. Btw: The date on the box could not mean the starting date of the initial session? I mean, I would assume that the date means when they put on the reel and first started to record (remember these are multitrack tapes) |
| Kacio 03.12.2013 03:44 |
maybe session to Mother Love began in May 1991? |
| Lord Gaga 03.12.2013 06:06 |
TRS-Romania wrote: I am guessing myself that the last vocals for Mother Love were not recorded in May 1991, but perhaps even up to/including November 1991.Phoebie said that Freddie could barely talk by October 1991. As Sebastian said elsewhere (perhaps on QOL), his last vocals could have been in May 1991, but he could have continued to fly out there periodically to add some bits to songs, like keyboards or piano. |
| Sebastian 03.12.2013 06:33 |
Or maybe he just never recorded anything in the last six months of his life ... I'm merely stating they're all viable possibilities. Recording's a tricky business, especially under special circumstances such as having a weakening terminally ill AIDS patient who can't go to the recording room and has to be tracked from the control room. For all we know, Freddie's very last session could've been an underwhelming two-minute attempt at a vocal or piano, then saying 'I'm not feeling well,' and being taken back to his place. Or maybe, his very last recording was indeed a Hollywood-esque masterpiece, where Brian was conveniently present, and the very last time he sang was exactly what we hear on his very last 'Mother Love' verse (the one after the middle-eight). Either way, it doesn't change (to me) the perception of Freddie as an extraordinary musician; but of course, the more they portray the whole last session as a scene from a dramatic film, the more fans they gather, the more they sell, the more they stay in the public eye. |
| Mkls 04.12.2013 03:12 |
link JSS interview from this Monday |
| Mkls 04.12.2013 03:19 |
link live footage news of the band at the studio ,this Monday |
| brians wig 04.12.2013 03:58 |
Stupid article. We've known for nearly two deacdes that Mother Love was Freddies last vocal. The only thing we didn't know for sure where the recording dates. |
| Thistle 04.12.2013 07:49 |
brians wig wrote: Stupid article. We've known for nearly two deacdes that Mother Love was Freddies last vocal. The only thing we didn't know for sure where the recording dates.Unless you are privy to the complete archives, the point is that we DON'T KNOW that ML is the last recorded vocals. We can assume, given the PRESENTED evidence. It does look likely, but we can't be completely certain. Therefore, as it's something that's been argued about for the best part of my own days of Queen fandom (about 18 years), it's not really a stupid article or topic. Perhaps saying they've put the matter to rest is silly, but the topic in itself is still interesting. |
| Sebastian 04.12.2013 09:01 |
Interesting what he says near the end of the video: 'we didn't know what the last recording would be.' He also mentioned that sometimes only one of them would record. So, again, either it's a magnificent coincidence that Brian happened to be present on Freddie's very last recording, or he did some more by himself later on. Either way, they're still gonna say the former, as it's more Hollywood-esque and dramatic. |
| justinshirleysmith 04.12.2013 09:22 |
Hi Chris Cole Moreton seemed to be genuinely moved by his visit to the studio and wrote a nice article. In the course of the writing however he missed one detail on this subject: I told him we had been investigating tape-box labels and track-sheets and, in fact, any documents we could find relating to these recordings in 1991. Cole only mentioned the tape-box labels - perhaps thinking it was enough information for most people ! ... Anyway, I thought I'd just correct that here where I reckon there are some people who care more about these things. Please remember Cole's job is to sensationalise whenever he can, hence: "Now, The Telegraph can disclose, the mystery has been solved." etc. You would be right to be doubtful had we just taken one tape-box label date as proof of a recording date. The tape-box label in question is Reel #7 and is dated "13-5-91". The second item on this tape is "Mother Love (Original)". This leads me to believe that work on Mother Love was not started before that date. The track sheet for "Mother Love (Original)" shows that Freddie sang a number of takes and includes detailed notes about each take. For example: "FM v1 + Mid8 + v2" and "FM mid8 + v2 + whisper Mother Love" and "FM Mid8 last line" etc. There is also a Brian vocal track. There is no date on this track-sheet. The instrumentation at this stage is just drum-machine, keyboard and three takes of guitar. The next version is "Mother Love New Master" on Reel #6. This version clearly started as a copy (digital clone) of "original". The track sheet for "Mother Love New Master" is dated "16-5-91". This track-sheet shows all the same vocal takes with the same detailed notes copied through. The only differences are in the instrumentation: drum-machine, keyboard, guitar (Take 1 only - incidentally the same as in the final mix), bass and "Hi Note"[synth]. The one remaining difference is "Vox Comp" instead of "Brian Vocal". The fact that all the vocal takes were copied over with exactly the same distinctive notes leads me to believe Freddie had recorded these vocals on, or before, 16th May 1991. The next version is "Mother Love (Master 2) New Arrange" on Reel #2. This version clearly started as a copy (digital clone) and edit of "New Master". The track sheet for "Mother Love (Master 2) New Arrange" is dated "22-5-91". The track-sheet contents are all identical to "New Master". The last stereo rough-mix tape from these sessions is dated "22-5-91" and contains Mother Love. I can find no evidence of any work on Mother Love after the 22nd May 1991. Regarding "A Winter's Tale", the track-sheets show that Freddie's vocal was compiled on "10 May '91" which means that he recorded it on, or before, that date. Although the fact that I worked on the sessions and have a pretty good memory of what happened is helpful, particularly in deciphering the documents, I cannot say I recall the exact order and dates of events. I have instead preferred to trust the written notes and dates from 1991 for this message and the information I gave to Cole. Regards Justin Shirley-Smith |
| Pim Derks 04.12.2013 10:32 |
This is unbelievable, thanks for sharing this Justin. When can we expect the book? :D |
| Sebastian 04.12.2013 11:15 |
... DP, S. |
| Sebastian 04.12.2013 11:18 |
I'm sold about the May date regarding Fred's last ML vocal, THAT is evidence. When you say no further work on ML was done after May 1991, does it mean just vocals or instruments as well? In the latter case, that'd mean the story about Brian playing a Parker Fly is bollocks. |
| justinshirleysmith 04.12.2013 12:37 |
Hi Sebastian Good point, what I meant was this: I can find no evidence of any work on Mother Love after the 22nd May 1991... until 13th October 1993 when work recommenced at Metropolis Studios London. Regards Justin |
| Pim Derks 04.12.2013 12:46 |
Seriously Justin, is there any chance there'll ever be a book containing stuff like this? Obviously there is a market for this kind of stuff. Include pictures of the original tapes/lyrics/etc. That'd be awesome! |
| Thistle 04.12.2013 13:12 |
Ssshhhhhh Pim - that suggestion will be mistaken for a promised release at some point, then we'll have a squad of Russian gangsters demanding answers from QPL because they reneged on the announced product :p |
| cmsdrums 04.12.2013 15:18 |
Justin Your detailed insight and facts here are massively appreciated - thank you. As a 'newbie', any more input you might fancy contributing to the more "serious" threads here regarding recording, mixing etc.. (you'll soon come to know the spammers and nutters!!) will always be gratefully accepted and debated by the majority here. Thanks again Chris |
| Lord Gaga 04.12.2013 17:28 |
Pim Derks wrote: Seriously Justin, is there any chance there'll ever be a book containing stuff like this? Obviously there is a market for this kind of stuff. Include pictures of the original tapes/lyrics/etc. That'd be awesome!Exactly, agreed 1000%. The Beatles Recording Sessions was such a valuable insight into their working method, and for YEARS I've hoped that we'd get something similar for Queen. Justin, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE let it happen! I will buy it in a heartbeat. |
| The Real Wizard 04.12.2013 23:47 |
Likewise here ! Bring on the book. This is the first bit of solid information heard in years about the specifics of any Queen recording session, never mind the last one. Gracious thanks for opening up, Justin. I'm not the least bit surprised about it being from May '91. Fans liked the idea of a narrative saying Mercury practically sang on his deathbed, but it was implausible for so many reasons. Only three songs were recorded after Innuendo, and David Richards has recently said the work began immediately after Innuendo was finished (November 1990). Three songs wouldn't take a year to put onto tape, especially considering how time was of the essence. In fact, that it took six months to get snippets of three songs onto tape reveals how little Freddie was actually able to work in 1991. It is now clear that the last work he did was the Days Of Our Lives video shoot. The outtakes reveal that he could barely walk, so the stories about him needing to rest between takes are all the more real now. He really was that ill by this point. Thank goodness we can put the rumours to rest - we have the facts now. If only this forum was this good every day... (post slightly edited due to me being a schmuck) |
| Benn Kempster 05.12.2013 02:51 |
THIS is exactly what Queenzone should be used for and is why there need to be moderators in place - just imagine the WEALTH of information and detail that has been kept back. |
| justinshirleysmith 05.12.2013 02:53 |
Dear Mr Wizard I was horrified to see you thought my message here should be a reason to discredit Peter Freestone in any way. Peter is a wonderful man and gives so much to us all. He is always a great person to be around, very kind to me in those days too and an important part of Freddie's life. Why do you need to vilify anyone here? Is that an important feature of QZ? You can pick holes in anything anyone ever says. Sebastian already found a flaw in my original message. Life is not black and white. Any study of any piece of history can tell you that. I can only tell you what I found in the archived studio documents we have, plus what I remember. I'm sure Peter knows many things I don't - after all, he was much closer to Freddie. We are still researching other documents from 1991. I'll let you know if I find more info on this subject. Regards Justin |
| Fireplace 05.12.2013 04:58 |
justinshirleysmith wrote: Why do you need to vilify anyone here? Is that an important feature of QZ?Unfortunately yes to that Justin, but you can usually count on Mr. Wizard not being one of the vilifiers. There's plenty of strange folk on this board, but also many courteous avid amateur (and even professional!) Queen-historians who will hang on your every word. Your contribution is much appreciated and will hopefully continue regardless of the naysayers. |
| Raffy 05.12.2013 06:12 |
Thanks for your contribution Justin, looking forward for future insights, welcome to Queenzone :) |
| Sebastian 05.12.2013 06:36 |
The Real Wizard wrote: Fans liked the idea of a narrative saying Mercury practically sang on his deathbed, but it was implausible for so many reasons.It is, but that's the narrative suggested by loads of official sources, so there was a reason to think that. Now, tape boxes and track-sheet dates are far more reliable, as they can't/don't/won't adapt their story to make it more spectacular or dramatic, but such the content of such tape boxes hadn't been made available to the public until this thread. Moreover, and just to be really pedantic, that doesn't necessarily exclude the possibility of Freddie *intending* to record something else in the future (e.g., an unreleased fifth post-Innuendo song that never got finished), or doing something that was deemed unusable. The Real Wizard wrote: Only three songs were recorded after InnuendoWrong: four, that we know of. The correct way to phrase it would be: out of the material recorded after Innuendo, only four songs have been released to date (and only three of those have Freddie's vocals). The Real Wizard wrote: David Richards has recently said the work began immediately after Innuendo was finished (November 1990).We didn't need to wait 'til 2011 to learn that: Fan Club mags and contemporary reports of 1991 had already revealed that. The Real Wizard wrote: Three songs wouldn't take a year to put onto tape, especially considering how time was of the essence.Also considering they had drum machines (it takes a second to press a button on a preset beat), some synth chords (which even an amateur performer could easily play) and the clever stuff would come in after Freddie's death. But then again, no-one says it was just those four songs (there've been four, not three, post-Innuendo compositions released so far). The Real Wizard wrote: It is now clear that the last work he did was the Days Of Our Lives video shoot.Again, not necessarily. It could very well be the case, but you're jumping into conclusions. The Real Wizard wrote: Why in the world would he deliberately lie about this?Maybe he didn't 'deliberately lie'. Maybe Freddie did intend to record after May but he wasn't able to; maybe he did record (something that was neither AWT nor YDFM nor ML) but it wasn't enough to make a song out of it (not when they had those outtakes and things from 1980-1988 to use instead). |
| Sebastian 05.12.2013 06:40 |
justinshirleysmith wrote: Sebastian already found a flaw in my original message.TBH, it wasn't a flaw, just a piece of info that could be interpreted in different ways depending on whether you'd meant last Freddie work or last band work. justinshirleysmith wrote: Life is not black and white.And it's not a greyscale either. There are millions of colours, and not being able to see infra-red or ultra-violet doesn't mean they don't exist. justinshirleysmith wrote: I can only tell you what I found in the archived studio documents we have, plus what I remember.Speaking of, if you don't mind a couple of follow-up questions: do you know if the band (with or without Freddie) did anything after Innuendo besides those four hitherto-released songs? Do you remember when was Freddie's last keyboard recording? |
| Ozz 05.12.2013 07:03 |
Instead of dissecting every post and bit of information almost like wanting to have the last word on the subject, I hope QZ could this time be open and welcoming to the valuable information Justin is sharing here. Maybe there will be a time later on to get together all and start jumping onto conclusions. I wish QZ could become a place where people like him and others would share with us all those wonderful paragraphs of Queen history that we all love about and not keep attracting Internet trolls like bees ( Even the QP one). So, Thank you Justin for taking the time to come here. |
| Sebastian 05.12.2013 07:31 |
Ozz wrote: Instead of dissecting every post and bit of informationThere are thousands of posts on QZ, out of which I've barely dissected more than 1%. Ozz wrote: almost like wanting to have the last word on the subjectI'm not interested in having the last word on anything. I am, however, interested in discussing these topics, and I'm not going to withdraw my thoughts. Ozz wrote: I hope QZ could this time be open and welcoming to the valuable information Justin is sharing here.QZ's always been open and welcoming to valuable information offered by people connected to Queen, including Barry Mitchell, Gary Taylor and even Greg Brooks despite all his trolling and name-calling. Ozz wrote: Maybe there will be a time later on to get together all and start jumping onto conclusions.That's true, or maybe some people would like to 'get together all and start jumping onto conclusions' right now, and we don't need your permission for that. There's something called 'free will.' Ozz wrote: I wish QZ could become a place where people like him and others would share with us all...It's always been such a place. Ozz wrote: ... not keep attracting Internet trolls like bees ( Even the QP one).It's gonna keep attracting trolls as well. Ozz wrote: So, Thank you Justin for taking the time to come here.There I agree. He could've easily ignored all the debates and the speculations but he bothered to reply, not to bully people around like a certain Archivist, but to respectfully share valuable information that Justin himself admitted didn't know people would care so much about. Kudos for that. |
| inu-liger 05.12.2013 08:46 |
Justin, can you confirm or deny the existence of a version of "Mother Love" with alternate Roger Taylor vocals in place of Brian May's? Allegedly this was revealed by Greg Brooks at a convention demo playback session around 10 years ago. |
| malicedoom 05.12.2013 10:24 |
Another big THANK YOU to Justin for this information. Great to know. Thanks again! |
| The Real Wizard 05.12.2013 11:25 |
justinshirleysmith wrote: Dear Mr Wizard I was horrified to see you thought my message here should be a reason to discredit Peter Freestone in any way. Peter is a wonderful man and gives so much to us all. He is always a great person to be around, very kind to me in those days too and an important part of Freddie's life.My apologies for flying off the handle. Rest assured, it has nothing to do with your thoughts and they shouldn't be associated with you. Thanks again for your contributions. Hope we see more of you around here. |
| Vocal harmony 05.12.2013 12:43 |
Justin thank you so much for taking the time to share this on here. It makes great reading, and from someone who was there. |
| Bohardy 05.12.2013 13:05 |
Justin, I just wanted to show my gratitude for what you posted, and give sincere thanks. That was truly one of the best posts there's ever been on this forum, if not the best. That's the kind of stuff that makes our world go around, so if you ever feel inclined to drop in again and share more in this vein, you are absolutely more than welcom. Thanks. |
| shannaschaffer 05.12.2013 13:09 |
Please don't leave us, Justin :) |
| Adam Baboolal 05.12.2013 20:43 |
Along with everyone else saying the same, I'd also like to thank you, Justin, for taking the time to let us know this information. This truly is brilliant :) |
| Martin Packer 06.12.2013 04:36 |
One thing I've always wondered is not so much when Freddie recorded his last but what sort of states were the post-Innuendo tracks in when Freddie last heard them. You'd really hope Freddie got some satisfaction out of seeing the tracks emerge from his efforts, wouldn't you? And I've no idea whether the tracks needed much work on them after his death or not much at all. Obviously Mother Love would probably have been missing the final verse - but could you imagine Freddie hearing Brian's vocal? (I doubt this happened.) Perhaps @justinshirleysmith can comment on the tracks' levels of completeness. |
| Sebastian 06.12.2013 05:54 |
Martin Packer wrote: Obviously Mother Love would probably have been missing the final verse - but could you imagine Freddie hearing Brian's vocal? (I doubt this happened.)According to what Justin already posted, there was a Brian May vocal on ML as early as May 1991. Now, was it just a guide for Freddie or was it indeed the final verse? Good point... |
| Jam Monkey 06.12.2013 14:51 |
Excellent thread with some fascinating information. We need more threads like this. |
| Thistle 06.12.2013 16:39 |
My God Craig - you're alive :) |
| Sebastian 08.12.2013 21:18 |
When interviewed on Virgin Superstars on 04.04.04, Brian claimed Mother Love had been 'in the last few weeks of his [Freddie's] life.' Now we know that's technically correct, only that Brian was using Freddie's 'the bigger the better' motto: Freddie's life lasted just under 2359 and a half weeks, and he recorded 'Mother Love' around Week No 2331, that is, during the last 1.19% of his life. So, technically, it *was* 'the last few weeks', only that loads of fans thought he meant 'the last two/three weeks' rather than 'the last 28-30 weeks.' |
| Thistle 09.12.2013 11:59 |
^ I 99.9% agree with that, Seb :) |
| FreddieCat 09.12.2013 16:18 |
'splains alot! Sadly bursts my romantic bubble about A Winters Tale being the last recording made up to the time he left the studio. |
| Sebastian 23.12.2013 07:23 |
justinshirleysmith wrote: I can find no evidence of any work on Mother Love after the 22nd May 1991... until 13th October 1993 when work recommenced at Metropolis Studios London.That day Brian was performing in America as a solo artist: link Which means that whatever was done, was by John and Roger. |
| The Real Wizard 23.12.2013 11:33 |
Well spotted. |
| Missreclusive 23.12.2013 21:38 |
Finally! An excellent thread with a contribution from someone who actually has some accurate information. Thank you Justin! This one thread makes coming here worthwhile...hopefully this wont be the last. |
| Heavenite 24.12.2013 02:17 |
Supersonic_Man89 wrote: Peter Freestone always says it was a month before his death? Although saying that Peter could be getting confused...on a radio documentary entitled 'The Last Days of Freddie Mercury', he said he completed FOUR complete tracks in 1991...surely he means three?I found this to be an interesting post for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I note that Phoebe says that Freddie completed four tracks. Who are we to correct him in this respect? I have heard that You Don't Fool Me was pretty much a Dave Richards construction as well. If so, does that mean there are two completed tracks from this period still to come maybe next year? Secondly I note that Peter Freestone also says that Freddie continued to record right up until the last month before his death. If this is so, then he stopped in October when he also says that Freddie could no longer sing. Maybe this apparent discrepancy can be explained by some of the other things that the other band members have said. I know nothing of dates and reels, but we have heard that Freddie near the end told the others to write lots of lines and he would sing anything and everything. So maybe the month of May was the time the band stopped doing COMPLETED tracks and stepped up the pace in terms of the writing process with Freddie singing any lines that the others (and maybe also he) were able to come up with. So maybe Freddie actually went flat out doing this period right up until he could no longer sing in October, precisely as Phoebe says. And when he reached the point that he could no longer sing, maybe it was at that point at which he decided it was time to stop taking his meds (as I've heard he did) let go and move on from this life. I mean with no quality of life to speak of and having now lost the ability to sing, well he may have seen there as beiing little point left in going on. Just some more "worms out of the can" for any of you who might be interested to mull over. :-) |
| Heavenite 24.12.2013 02:24 |
justinshirleysmith wrote: Dear Mr Wizard I was horrified to see you thought my message here should be a reason to discredit Peter Freestone in any way. Peter is a wonderful man and gives so much to us all. He is always a great person to be around, very kind to me in those days too and an important part of Freddie's life. Why do you need to vilify anyone here? Is that an important feature of QZ? You can pick holes in anything anyone ever says. Sebastian already found a flaw in my original message. Life is not black and white. Any study of any piece of history can tell you that. I can only tell you what I found in the archived studio documents we have, plus what I remember. I'm sure Peter knows many things I don't - after all, he was much closer to Freddie. We are still researching other documents from 1991. I'll let you know if I find more info on this subject. Regards JustinI note that Justin is keen to defend the veracity of what Phoebe says and points out that life is not as "black and white" as we might think it is. So could it be that Mother Love was indeed the last properly recorded track that Queen completed while Freddie was still alive, but that was not the last incomplete or piecemeal recording that Freddie made. Maybe there is more music from this period, but in a more fragmented or undeveloped form than Winters Tale, Mother Love and the other one or possibly two completed tracks that Phoebe refers to. Laslty, could this be where those rumours of enough material for between as little as 3 and and as many as 8 albums have come from? Not sure, but I wonder how much of this sort of material exists, assuming it actually does since the remaining band members have said so. It would probably be tough to do something with this stuff, but Freddie has been gone for 22 years now, so there has been plenty of time to try and do something worthwhile with it, if it is indeed possible. A good example I think of what might be possible is the incomplete demo New York off Freddie's 10CD collection. Just getting Brian and Roger to do their own verses and Brian to do a suitable guitar break in the middle, and I reckon you would have one helluva song! |
| stevendabudgie 24.12.2013 16:26 |
I remember that I read an interview with Brian in a German magazine years agoin which he stated/ was quoted that "other tracks" had been recorded for MIH in 1991 but also that they did not wind up on the album because "they were not good". |
| Heavenite 24.12.2013 17:35 |
Which basically leads us back to Roger Taylor's comments of about a year ago when he saId that work on the album was to be halted as he didn't want to be involved in a "bottom scraping exercise". Yet here we are a year later and Roger is saying tthat there are some good tracks that aren't demos that are set for release next year, once Brian and himself have worked on them a bit more. And if there were four tracks completed in 1991 as Phoebe suggests, then one would think that the other one or two might be at least OK, if Mother Love and Winters Tale are anything to go by. |
| aion 25.12.2013 06:06 |
Heavenite wrote:That is all just wishful thinking. There is so much wishful thinking on these boards from people who don't want to move on and desperately want to hear Freddie's voice again.Supersonic_Man89 wrote: Peter Freestone always says it was a month before his death? Although saying that Peter could be getting confused...on a radio documentary entitled 'The Last Days of Freddie Mercury', he said he completed FOUR complete tracks in 1991...surely he means three?I found this to be an interesting post for a couple of reasons. Firstly, I note that Phoebe says that Freddie completed four tracks. Who are we to correct him in this respect? I have heard that You Don't Fool Me was pretty much a Dave Richards construction as well. If so, does that mean there are two completed tracks from this period still to come maybe next year? Secondly I note that Peter Freestone also says that Freddie continued to record right up until the last month before his death. If this is so, then he stopped in October when he also says that Freddie could no longer sing. Maybe this apparent discrepancy can be explained by some of the other things that the other band members have said. I know nothing of dates and reels, but we have heard that Freddie near the end told the others to write lots of lines and he would sing anything and everything. So maybe the month of May was the time the band stopped doing COMPLETED tracks and stepped up the pace in terms of the writing process with Freddie singing any lines that the others (and maybe also he) were able to come up with. So maybe Freddie actually went flat out doing this period right up until he could no longer sing in October, precisely as Phoebe says. And when he reached the point that he could no longer sing, maybe it was at that point at which he decided it was time to stop taking his meds (as I've heard he did) let go and move on from this life. I mean with no quality of life to speak of and having now lost the ability to sing, well he may have seen there as beiing little point left in going on. Just some more "worms out of the can" for any of you who might be interested to mull over. :-) Like I said in another thread, it's a ridiculous idea that he/they would have been frantically recording up until October, for 10 months, and basically not coming up with anything. Impossible. It's also ridiculous that they would have done more "proper" songs, but would have decided not to release them on MIH. = there exists no more material worthy of releasing. Even if there exists another as bare and sketchy demo from 91 as 'Gazelle' or 'Yellow Breeze' from the Freddie box set, or 'My secret Fantasy', what does it matter? They consist only of the title line and a little doodling, nothing more, and could only be released in an anthology for the die-hard completists. It makes no difference to me if something like 'Gazelle' had never been released. I believe what Sebastian said, that Freddie recorded material in 91 on two occasions, in January and May. There was no singing in the fall, no more songs, no "write me anything and I'll sing it". |
| Sebastian 25.12.2013 08:00 |
Some people desperately want to believe it, even if the overwhelming amount of evidence suggests otherwise. |
| Mr.QueenFan 25.12.2013 10:21 |
Sebastian wrote: Some people desperately want to believe it, even if the overwhelming amount of evidence suggests otherwise.This is true, but for people to believe what is said on this topic by the official reports, then we have to conclude that everybody else was/is lying. There is no other way, because i don't believe the theory that the memory is playing tricks on them all. Maybe one could have been wrong, but not everybody. So, i still believe that when someone says that Freddie sang until the last weeks of his live i see this time frame as October/November 1991. Six months is not the "last" weeks by any standard. I can live with the fact that Press releases like to embellish things to public, but apart from the press releases we have people that were very intimate of Freddie during that period saying the exactly same thing. And in other cases we have people stating exactly the opposite of this, like David Richards who says that the last song recorded was "A winters Tale". This, to me means, that not everybody was in the studio at the same time, and is very possible that some sessions happened with only the people present in the studio being aware of it, and not everything was found or was simply not cataloged. For example a later session being recorded in a tape already cataloged with another date? i don't know if this is possible, but this is not case closed yet because there are a lot of loose ends concerning this issue. I believe Brian May experience on this subject. But one must ask, if Freddie wasn't well enough to sing one last verse, how could he went back to London and film the "TATDOOL" video? Not only that, he insisted that he wanted to repeat the last shot of that video. Not bad for a man who wasn't able to get back to the studio to finish singing Mother Love a week or two before. I'll say this respecting Freddie state at the time, because i know that some days are better than others, but something isn't right with the reports. My ears also tells me that there little chance that "A winters tale" was recorded at the same time as "Mother Love", because it's clear that Freddie's voice is different in ML. Again, maybe it was due to the disease (a cold or something else) or simply he was in character like he did for the "I'm going slightly Mad" song. It could be, but for me the difference between "ML" and "AWT" is the same between "AWT" and "TATDOOL". There seems to be a natural fading of the voice that takes more than just a few days. Jim Hutton stated that Freddie recorded "A winters Tale" in late 1990. I mean, i believe that people might be confused about dates, but people don't get confused between Christmas time and other times of the year. So, what was Jim talking about when he remembered Freddie singing this song? Was Freddie demoing this song? I mean, Freddie wrote a winters tale in 1990 but he waited until May 1991 to record it? Even when he wasn't expected to finish the Innuendo sessions? These, and other questions deserve to be thought about , before we disregard everything everybody else is saying about this, and then we can get to a definitive conclusion, but not before that. On a side note, this discussion reminds me a bit about Titanic. People who survived it said that the ship broke in two. Scientists kept saying that it wasn't possible for a ship like that to break in two. Memory was playing tricks on the survivers due to trauma, they said. Then, when they finally found Titanic, they discovered that it was split in two. I will always believe people's experience above everything else, unless they're not worthy of my belief in them, wich until now i don't have reasons to do so. At least to the ones mention in this thread that were with Freddie until the very end. Can i be wrong? Absolutely, but i'm only choosing to believe that there's a bit of truth in every story. And to finish this off, i just say that in the past, the official information was the one proven wrong, and only due to detective work made by fans, we got the right story. Remember when Greg Brooks stated that the Knebworth concert -AUDIO- wasn't recorded full? They didn't have the tapes. That was until some fan spotted the tapes at the Genesis studio and photographed it, and then and only then we were told the true story - audio tapes of the full concert do exist! Cheers, and Merry Xmas |
| musicland munich 25.12.2013 13:30 |
@ MrQueenFan David Richard said that "A winter tale" was the last song Freddie has written for MIH. The last song he recorded was "Mother Love". |
| Sebastian 25.12.2013 16:06 |
There's documented evidence of David saying the last one was AWT (e.g., on the interview available on DRF's channel), and evidence of David saying the last one was ML (e.g., CotW docu, and the '95 German RS interview). It's not his fault to forget about the exact order when it comes to sessions which were, by his own admission, happening more or less at the same time. Fans loyally and obsessively remember which song was where and all that, but little do the actual artists care about being exact on those details. There's audio evidence of Brian, as early as 1978, referring to 'Love of My Life' as a song from either 'Sheer Heart Attack' or 'A Day at the Races.' Artists also embellish things, the same way the press does. 'Freddie sang this bit when he just had a few weeks left to live' is perfectly understandable as, again, 28-30 weeks are 'just a few' in the context of a 45-year-long life. It's part of their job description, as more publicity generates more sales, simple as that. Witness recollection is extremely unreliable, especially after all these years and especially compared to other sources. Had there been an actual video of the 'Titanic' either splitting in half or not, that would've been far more accurate than both victims' statements and scientists' hypotheses. Science marches on, after all, and what one day is universally accepted can easily be debunked by just one person later on. It happens with 'serious business' things such as realising smoking is actually bad for your health, or realising the earth's not flat, so of course it can also happen when it comes to the 'legend' of a wheelchair-bound near-flatlining Freddie still singing in October. Dates on the original tracksheets beat witness recollections, as those recorded data (assuming they had the sense of writing down the right dates and all that) are impervious to memory deterioration or marketing-fuelled fabrication. Freddie took part on the 'Days of Our Lives' footage in London because he, well, lived in London. Miming to a song while reading lyrics written on A2 cardboard is far less demanding than actually singing. I completely agree that *that* Freddie could've probably recorded more had he had the chance but what the evidence suggests is that he did not get it. They'd scheduled some more recordings in August but perhaps by then (three months after the 'Days of Our Lives' video shooting) his health had worsened to the point of changing plans. The actual events we will never know for sure, and there'll still be loads of 'maybes' and 'what ifs'. However, both logic and serious evidence strongly suggest that was it (Fred-wise) in May '91. Jim's book says Fred wrote AWT that winter. Winter goes from December to February, so it could've easily fitted the January 1991 timeline for a recording. There's tracksheet evidence that Fred did more sessions for that song in early May, but it doesn't mean *at all* that he replaced all the vocals. For all we know, he could've just changed a few words around and the main 'bunch' could come from January, thus accounting for the tone and timbre dissimilarities between AWT and ML. |
| Heavenite 25.12.2013 16:08 |
The problem with saying there is nothing left is that Queen are saying there is another album coming out next year. Unless people don't believe this is actually going to happen, then the question can be asked where are any "new" tracks on the expected release coming from? They could well be tracks from earlier recording sessions. No one can dispute that. But with the "official" story changing so often, is it any wonder that some of us have been speculating about exactly how much material still remains to be released? Just to remind people that it was actually Roger and Brian who were the ones that reignited this issue last year when they said that they were going to go back into the studio and work on the material that was still left over and put an album together. I'm sure just about everybody had given up hope of more material with Freddie on it coming out before that. I know I certanly had. I mean cripes!, it was 17 years since MIH at that point! (now 18!). Next it was off again and Roger was talking about not wanting to be involved in a "bottom scraping exercise". Yet now, only around 12 months later, he and Brian have "suddenly" discovered more tracks which, according to Roger in the recent Toronto Sun article (check the Queen Announcement thread!), aren't even demos! In these circumstances, there is little doubt in my mind that last year's announcement was for promotional purposes to get fans like us talking about the possiblity of more Freddie material. And it has certainly worked! If next year's album does materialise at some stage, which seems almost certain now, it will be the second time that we will have been told that there is nothing left in the cupboard (the third if you include Roger's "bottom scraping" comments from last year) only to find that there was indeed more material left. So given that even the official sources have been so unreliable in this regard, is it any wonder that some people are now wondering how much material is really left? Having said that, the given the factual uncertainties we are faced with, it might well be that it is the nature of certain people to think "the glass is half full" whereas for others "the glass is half emply". However, the truth is that the details and actual facts of the matter still remain to be completely resolved. Being a "glass half full" kind of person, I know that I suspected that Roger's "bottom scraping exercise" comments would not be the end of the matter and said so on this forum at the time, when the overwhelming sentiment was the belief that what Roger said finally confirmed that this had to be it. So the question I would therefore ask each of you is what did you write on here when Roger made those comments? Did you say "right that's definitely it now!" and "there's definitely no more" or like me, did you basically say "yeah nah"? Then the next question I would ask is were the "yaysayers" right because it's just the way they are and they were just lucky or were they right because they saw through Roger's "bottom scraping exercise" comments and correctly interpreted them as just being promotional spin? |
| Sebastian 25.12.2013 16:20 |
As you say, the most logical possibility is that whatever they're using on the next posthumous project is going to come from earlier sessions. It's not like they haven't done it before ... 72.73% of 'Made in Heaven' is made up of songs which were written and (Fred-wise) recorded in the 80's. Early albums have a lesser (but still existing) chance of containing usable unreleased songs. For 'Queen II', it took them less than a month to record 11 songs (that we know of), while on 'Sheer Heart Attack' it took them three months for 13 tracks ... granted, Brian was ill and some of the songs were more complex so that takes longer, but it'd also give them enough time to maybe try out some ideas that weren't included (e.g., the title track, later revived on 'News of the World'). That means that the material to be used on the new 'MiH' most likely comes from July 1974 onwards. It makes perfect sense that *all* of Fred's recordings on that hypothetical new MiH come from the July 1974 - May 1991 time-frame, with an overwhelming majority being actually from July 1974 to November 1990 (i.e., 97.04% of the previously mentioned era). |
| Heavenite 25.12.2013 16:33 |
It would certainly seem to make more sense Sebastian. I mean the period from 1974 through to May 1991 is most of the band's career and during which Freddie was definitely in better health than he was during those last few months, So it would make sense that this would be where any unreleased material would come from. Having said that, it will be still be interesting to see what the truth of the matter is when the new album is actually released next year, Hopefully it won't be delayed in this respect as we have already been waiting too long! (whether we knew it or not....lol!) |
| Mr.QueenFan 25.12.2013 19:41 |
I seem to remember a Freddie interview to promote the album "ANATO" where Freddie stated that he had lot's of material donne for SHA that wasn't used. I'll have to check later if i still have this magazine to confirm this, but i'm pretty sure about this. I'm just not sure if it was written or recorded. After discover that "Too Much Love Will Kill You" MIH is exactly the same version that was recorded for the miracle album, i'm led to believe that they must have lots of complete songs waiting to be released from other albums as well. According to Brian May, when they had almost finished recording the "Works" album, they "..threw off so much because there wasn't room for it...". And it makes perfect sense. Most bands record more than 12 songs to choose the best for the record, and with Queen, this makes perfect sense. Not just demos, but real songs. And Brian says "... we threw off so much...". Now the question is, how much is so much? I'd say at least three complete songs. At least in my book :-) Here's the link of Brian. It starts at 2:50 sec: link Now, was Brian's mind playing tricks on him? Of course not, because the others were there also, and it was very fresh in his/their memory. So, there's two options: - The tapes are only starting to appear now, like Brian states (last couple of years), or; -They simply don't want fans to know about it, maybe to surprise the fans, or to not receive questions or pressure about it. Either way, in Brian words, for the works only there is at least more than one complete song. Brian clearly states that they were almost finished recording the album. I'm pretty sure that there are some songs left out of the "Game" album too, considering how small that album is. @Sebastian. That was a great reply and i'm certainly not judging the veracity of what Justin stated here as facts. I'm just telling that if we take all the loose ends here, maybe we'll get somewhere, as i believe we did already. I won't judge other people's memory, but myself i have a great memory about things, so i expect people to have the same memory. In the case of Titanic, even if i was a scientist i would still consider the possibility that more than 700 people couldn't all be wrong. I don't have a thing against scientists, i'm only stating that people's experience must be taken into consideration- at least when there's clearly more than one with the same memories. But if i remember correctly the majority of people who survived were women, and maybe this explains something. The reason i say this about people that took REAL care of Freddie it's because you don't forget certain things, mainly due to the symptoms that he started to present. Now, there's 22 years past his death, but i'm pretty sure that Peter knew when Freddie started to limb and all of the other symptoms dates. I know this from real life experience, that when you're taking care of someone with an illness you'll remember this stuff. And if you know that he's on a time limit - like they all knew - then they're gonna cherish those memories for ever- like time spent by the lake, christmas, and so on. But this is me, i know that everybody is different and i don't want to offend anyone by calling liars to people but i find hard to believe that everybody is confused. It can happen, and i leave it at that. To put this to rest, what i'm really trying to say is: If i was a researcher really interested in getting this thing right i would first look at the dates on the tapes, like Justin did. Then, i would compare what i'd discovered with what people remember. And then if there was discrepancy like it seems to be, i would talk to those people- if i could have access to them- like they do. They might not remember the exact dates, but can they remember if it was near the summer or winter? Can Brian remember if it was before or after his his guitar legends show in Spain October 1991. There's lots of small things that can indicate the correct dates if people only ask the right questions to the right persons. And then if it was really May 91 like it seems to be the case, great! That's all i mean. |
| Sebastian 25.12.2013 22:28 |
Songs they'd initially planned for 'The Works' but which were discarded, theoretically in different stages of completion: * 'I Go Crazy', which we all know what they did to. * 'Man on Fire' * 'Man-Made Paradise' * 'Let Me in Your Heart Again' (IIRC) * 'Another Piece of My Heart', which we also know what happened with. Regarding '700 people can't all be wrong,' actually, they can: at one point most people (far more than 700) believed the earth was flat (and no, it wasn't Columbus who first realised that wasn't the case). Very often a person's memory is influenced by someone else's, and the brain makes a similar connexion between a false/imprinted recollection and a true one, so there's no way to tell if they're being honest, if they're purposely lying, if they're saying something inaccurate but under good faith and honest belief that's how it is, etc. What Justin found about 'Mother Love' is quite conclusive, especially if the contents of those multi-tracks match the finished version. There's no way around it: if that's the case (and AFAIK, it is), then Fred didn't record any vocal for ML after May 1991, simple as that. Now, we could still theorise about more recordings later on, yielding hitherto unreleased material, etc., but Occam's Razor dictates a much simpler solution: he stopped recording six months before he died, and statements implying or outright saying otherwise are a product of either marketing or wishful thinking or misrecollections or a combination of those. |
| Heavenite 25.12.2013 23:50 |
I went and looked up the definition of Occam's Razor just to make sure my understanding of the principle was accurate. The definition from Wiki is here > link. Basically, as I understand it, it says that in the absence of support for more complicated theories, the simplest solution is often the best one and is the one to go with. So applying this principle to this issue of Freddie's final recordings, the sourced reels we have now been told about do suggest that the formal recording process ended with Mother Love. Supporting this, we also have Brian saying that Mother Love had to be finished off by himself and Roger because Freddie never came back to the studio. Other than that, we have some verbal evidence from Phoebe that Freddie continued to record right up to about a month before his death when he could no longer sing anymore and we also have the band describing how Freddie asked the band to write any lines at all and he would sing them as the end drew near. However, we don't have any other objective evidence to support these last two contentions like the recording dates on a can for Mother Love. Although Justin does warn us about being too black and white about these things and was even "horrified" when The Real Wizard discounted Phoebe's evidence that Freddie continued recording right up to the month before his death. However, without any further evidence to support Phoebe's statement or the band's statement that Freddie asked his bandmates to give him lines to sing, Occam's Razor, or indeed the "doctrine of conservatism" for that matter, would seem to indicate that we can only expect any material to exist up until May 1991. And assuming the material provided next year doesn't suggest something different in that respect, then I think that would have to be the "truth" that it would be sensible to settle for moving forward into the future. Mind you, given the ongoing inconsistencies in what has been said by Brian and Roger in the past, right up to just recently, I wouldn't be at all surprised if one day in the not too distant future, they do come out once again and say something like "Wow! We have just found this cache of previously unheard of vocal recordings by Freddie", which we might be able to do something with. In those circumstances, those rumours of multiple albums being left in the can (from whatever period) might ultimately turn out to be accurate. And if that does turn out to be the case, then it should remembered that saying this is your last one often seems to do wonders for sales. Just look at the number of farewell tours that certain artists like Kiss have had over the years! Gee! They've even gone back to putting out albums again in the last few years. And if other music does does ultimately turn out to exist, I will be one fan that will not be complaining. As each new discovery feels to me to some extent like Freddie is still there along with the others, putting out albums for their fans. |
| tero! 48531 26.12.2013 03:33 |
Heavenite wrote: So applying this principle to this issue of Freddie's final recordings, the sourced reels we have now been told about do suggest that the formal recording process ended with Mother Love. Supporting this, we also have Brian saying that Mother Love had to be finished off by himself and Roger because Freddie never came back to the studio. Other than that, we have some verbal evidence from Phoebe that Freddie continued to record right up to about a month before his death when he could no longer sing anymore and we also have the band describing how Freddie asked the band to write any lines at all and he would sing them as the end drew near.I don't see how these two statements would contradict each other, because I don't think that Phoebe has defined the quality of the recordings he's talking about. It's entirely possible that Mother Love was the last time Freddie was recording with professional studio equipment, but he could still have been recording at his home months later. He could have been singing (or playing) rough ideas onto a cassette recorder lying on the bed. It doesn't mean that any of the material could be transformed into commercial songs, but I suppose it's also possible that after 20 years of technological development it would be easier to make these home recordings sound like proper recordings? |
| Sebastian 26.12.2013 06:27 |
AFAIK, what Peter Freestone said was that Freddie'd definitely visited the studios in October, but he didn't say at any point that he'd definitely recorded. In fact, he safely cleared up he wasn't there so he didn't know exactly what'd happened and what, if anything, had been recorded. So it's not as if he's actively contradicting the established chronology. |
| aion 26.12.2013 08:12 |
Maybe they should dig up Freddie's coffin to see if he's done any recordings with a portable cassette recorder while dead? After all, the fact that we aren't aware of any cases where a dead person has sung songs doesn't mean it's 100% impossible - people once believed that the Earth was flat, similarly everyone may now only *believe* that the dead can't sing. So should they check the coffin, just in case? Reading these boards is kind of depressing and I have to stop it because people are so terribly stuck in the past... desperately wishing to get one more album from a person who died long ago. Must remind oneself that there are actually bands out there that don't have to resort to archaelogical diggings to release a new album. There is nothing to suggest that another Freddie Mercury album could emerge, much less that one should. If there is even one unheard, good and proper song in the archives - which is unlikely - I suppose it might be nice to hear it on some anthology, but anything more than that is just wishful longing for the past, macabre barrel-scraping and sad attempt from B & R to stay in headlines. Must-try-to-move-on... |
| Sebastian 26.12.2013 09:39 |
He was cremated... |
| Mr.QueenFan 26.12.2013 12:41 |
Sebastian wrote: Regarding '700 people can't all be wrong,' actually, they can: at one point most people (far more than 700) believed the earth was flat (and no, it wasn't Columbus who first realised that wasn't the case). Very often a person's memory is influenced by someone else's, and the brain makes a similar connexion between a false/imprinted recollection and a true one, so there's no way to tell if they're being honest, if they're purposely lying, if they're saying something inaccurate but under good faith and honest belief that's how it is, etc.This is where i totally disagree with you! 700 people looking at a ship that big breaking in two cannot be wrong. You can't compare it with the belief that the Earth was flat, because once people experienced that it was not, the belief changed. People didn't believe that Titanic broke in two- they knew it, because they saw it, and it was only when a researcher took that into account and started looking for debris instead of looking for the ship itself, that it was found. And guess what?- It was break in two. I respect your point of view, but we're talking about different things here. I'm willing to put this to rest for now, because i don't know what Phoebe said about this or the context - only what i see here, so i will continue this research in a more private way. |
| thomasquinn 32989 26.12.2013 13:22 |
This may not have been the actual subject, but: it was already known in classical antiquity that the earth was round, and in fact, its circumference was pretty accurately calculated almost 2000 years before Columbus' voyage opened what we call the Early Modern Era. The widely-held assumption that people in the Middle Ages believed that the earth was flat is nothing more than a 19th century misunderstanding of the primitive style of perspective used in late-classical and medieval maps. As for the point at hand, if I may point out that I am an historian by training and have won academic awards in that field and as such have a level of authority on this subject: the mere quantity of sources can never be more than a circumstantial indication of veracity. The key factors are the proximity of the author of a source to the thing he/she is describing, the motivation behind the creation of the source, the length of time between the events described and the making of the description, the consistency of descriptions by the same author and then the correspondence with other sources. |
| aion 26.12.2013 14:05 |
Does that mean that we should rule out any possibility of his ashes singing? Hardly! |
| on my way up 26.12.2013 14:39 |
Sebastian wrote: He was cremated...Just what I was thinking :-) |
| Sebastian 26.12.2013 15:10 |
Mr.QueenFan wrote: I respect your point of view, but we're talking about different things here.Yes, you're right, seeing the Titanic break is not the same as believing the earth was flat, so I stand corrected. Knowing when Freddie's last recording was, however, is different from both as well, as at the time, *nobody* knew which visit to the studios would be his last (as they weren't soothsayers, as far as we know). |
| cmsdrums 26.12.2013 15:18 |
So, to sum up, since 1991 Brian and Roger though the world was flat, but recently they have been provided with snippets of evidence that Freddie recorded for them (though we're not sure if this was up to, or after May 1991), to contradict this view, and now they are going to come out and say that, although they'd previously sworn otherwise before, they now believe it to be round based on proof Freddie left behind that they didn't know about before? Have I understood correctly?? |
| Heavenite 26.12.2013 15:37 |
Yes, that's the problem. And it's happened three times now, if you include Roger's "bottom scraping exercise" remarks as an another example of this. And like I said, there is a big motivation for the band to say every release would be Freddie's last, both in terms of sales and to stop any hassling to release what's left that might otherwise come their way. But even if they are doing this (and releasing stuff all of a sudden after 18 years later does suggest to me that this is possible), the objective evidence we have been told about still suggests his recordings ended with Mother Love. I think that leaves us in a position where once again it's only reasonable to assume that next year's release of recordings will indeed be the last fully fledged album that Queen will release, unless they tell us otherwise. Whether they backflip in the future yet again will only be proved at the time it actually happens, if indeed it ever does happen. However, the fact that Queen has signed a new deal to release rarities in the future does indicate that there is still some interesting material to come, which will include stuff like live versions and demo versions that a Queen fan will definitely want to hear. The extra EPs that came with the rerelease of the Queen catalogue might therefore be a good taster of what is to come in this respect. |
| Heavenite 26.12.2013 19:09 |
aion wrote: Maybe they should dig up Freddie's coffin to see if he's done any recordings with a portable cassette recorder while dead? After all, the fact that we aren't aware of any cases where a dead person has sung songs doesn't mean it's 100% impossible - people once believed that the Earth was flat, similarly everyone may now only *believe* that the dead can't sing. So should they check the coffin, just in case? Reading these boards is kind of depressing and I have to stop it because people are so terribly stuck in the past... desperately wishing to get one more album from a person who died long ago. Must remind oneself that there are actually bands out there that don't have to resort to archaelogical diggings to release a new album. There is nothing to suggest that another Freddie Mercury album could emerge, much less that one should. If there is even one unheard, good and proper song in the archives - which is unlikely - I suppose it might be nice to hear it on some anthology, but anything more than that is just wishful longing for the past, macabre barrel-scraping and sad attempt from B & R to stay in headlines. Must-try-to-move-on...That's all fair enough if Freddie didn't actually want and leave other music for Brian, Roger and John to release or record properly after he was gone. But if he did, then I think putting that music out is simply fulfilling Freddie's wishes. We know that Mother Love and A Winter's Tale were recorded post Innuendo, and if there's anything else that is up to scratch, then I expect Freddie would have wanted it to have also seen the light of day. Ultimately I guess only when we hear next year's release will we know whether this was a barrel scraping exercise or much more than that. But based on Made In Heaven, I think most people would say there is reason to be hopeful that the bottom has not yet been reached at this point. But ultimately, the proof is in the pudding, and that is expected to be out at some point in 2014, based on the latest info from Roger that I've seen in the interview he did for the Toronto Sun in mid-December. |
| aion 31.12.2013 14:11 |
Heavenite wrote:That's all fair enough if Freddie didn't actually want and leave other music for Brian, Roger and John to release or record properly after he was gone. But if he did, then I think putting that music out is simply fulfilling Freddie's wishes. We know that Mother Love and A Winter's Tale were recorded post Innuendo, and if there's anything else that is up to scratch, then I expect Freddie would have wanted it to have also seen the light of day. Ultimately I guess only when we hear next year's release will we know whether this was a barrel scraping exercise or much more than that. But based on Made In Heaven, I think most people would say there is reason to be hopeful that the bottom has not yet been reached at this point. But ultimately, the proof is in the pudding, and that is expected to be out at some point in 2014, based on the latest info from Roger that I've seen in the interview he did for the Toronto Sun in mid-December.Freddie intended his last songs to be released but that doesn't automatically mean that he wanted everything he ever did released, including bare ideas like 'Gazelle', or that he wanted every old discarded demo worked up by Brian and Roger as 'new' Queen songs. To me it seems more like B & R have been lately using Freddie's "last will" as an excuse to do anything to everything they can get their hands onto. The situation with the material is this: Queen were never very prolific artists. Throughout the 80s they wrote only 9-10 songs for an album although all four of them were capable songwriters. You were lucky if you got one extra song as a B-side. For AKOM, I don't think there was any additional song done - and there is still filler on the album even though there's only 9 songs on it! So it wasn't quite the same situation as with for example Bruce Springsteen who used to record 40 songs in his sessions and then picked the tip of the iceberg for the album. Sadly, I think Freddie even confessed in a Miracle-era radio interview that their working method wasn't as laborious: when they had enough songs for an album they recorded them and that was it; they didn't have interest to make lots of additional stuff. So when the 3 dudes started amassing MIH, it was obvious that they didn't have a lot to work with even though they went through the archives back to 1980. They wouldn't have used one-minute long snippets like It's A Beautiful Day and Let Me Live or the Freddie solo tracks for the album if they had had more actual, proper songs in the archives. The material was thin already for that album. I don't believe for a second that after they worked 2 years on MIH and went through the old recordings both physically and mentally, they've now all of a sudden 18 years later found a wealth of unheard Freddie recordings; at least 8-10 real songs (not demos) which not only have complete and final vocal takes from Freddie, but also are good enough to compare with previous Queen albums and to form a core for a new album. It's just not going to happen. But the bottom line is this: a 'new album' shouldn't be released even if there was enough material for one (and there isn't). Fans are so eager to hear the man's voice again that they don't realize that there are no artistic grounds for an album: a disjointed collection of random songs from different eras and years wouldn't be an actual album and it isn't called for by any kind of last will of Freddie or needed so long after Queen's end. It would be put out only for commercial purposes and to satisfy the egos of Brian and Roger. And most importantly Made In Heaven worked so perfectly as Queen's farewell and end that it shouldn't be followed up by anything. It should remain as the last Queen album. Now, this doesn't mean that any worthy material shouldn't be released at all, but it means that it shouldn't be presented as "A NEW STUDIO ALBUM". It should simply be part of the Queen rarities anthology that should have been released a long time ago. If they soon release some stupid "Queen Forever" album with the Michael Jackson tracks plus maybe some Works outtake and Freddie solo reworkings, I won't buy it or ever listen to it once. But if they'll finally release the anthology with some interesting unheard things in it, I might actually look into it. |
| MercurialFreddie 02.01.2014 17:21 |
If you would listen closely to interviews from 1984 and if you've seen the recent The Great Pretender documentary then you'd know that composing process varied depending from the album which they have been working on and the state of band's inner relations. Roger himself upon hearing Freddie's idea of a solo album suggested to use unused tracks from The Works sessions. As we know today, three songs from Mr Bad Guy album were originally Queen ideas and "Queen versions" of them (demos, takes) do exist in the Queen archives. I'd advise you not to regard what Brian and Roger say about their own archives as credible information. They're focused on the present (controversial collaborations, making new music etc.). One of them (strictly Brian) doesn't have recollection of It's a Hard life being played live - this will give you some insight on how often they visit their own archives (live recorded material) or attend to meetings with their own archivist. Only Greg Brooks, Gary Taylor and JSS from time to time have kindly presented on this forum information regarding band's archive but sadly many discussions were ended abruptly because of fan's reactions. If you'd ask me there's enough material left from Queen's recorded sessions (1972-1991) for more than one album. Ps. Consider this - Made in Heaven was and is a concept album. Not every song fitted in thematically so we cannot know how much has been left off from the Innuendo and post-Innuendo sessions (apart from Face it Alone and Freedom Train). |
| aion 03.01.2014 12:33 |
As a general rule they only ever created in sessions for any album as many songs as was absolutely needed to release that album. They may have had some more songs very early in the process - call them demos, ideas, embryos or whatever - but they then chose which ideas would be developed into finished songs and those became the album; nothing else was developed further.
This was their working method and I'm sure any Queen fan (especially hardcore informants like Sebastian) knows this.
It means that there are no completed songs in the archive, no completed lyrics, no completed Freddie vocal takes. Everything in there that doesn't appear on Queen albums is those demos from the early process which were decided not to develop further.
I wouldn't go as far as to call them lazy but they certainly had a 'minimalist' working policy, in that they didn't have interest to make anything extra.
This is the reason why Queen archives are so empty despite a 20-year recording career, and also why their B-sides were always very poor (I mean if you bought the Works singles you actually bought the whole album twice, and with AKOM they even started to put their old A-sides onto B-sides - they had to do that simply because they had nothing else to put there).
The minimalist working policy also resulted in patchy albums because in the end they couldn't choose the best songs to make the album - they either put everything they had onto the album or there wasn't an album.
I'm sure every Queen fan wishes they'd have recorded (fully finished) some 30 songs in the sessions for The Works, maybe 15 songs in A Kind Of Magic sessions, 35 in The Miracle sessions and so on... but that simply wasn't how they worked.
MercurialFreddie wrote:If you'd ask me there's enough material left from Queen's recorded sessions (1972-1991) for more than one album.It is absolutely impossible to compile a normal album from the Queen archives. Not only are there not songs, but even if there were, it would sound too unnatural to have Freddie's vocals from 1973 next to his vocals from 1984 and then 1991 - his voice changed so much during a 20-year career. And like I explained, an unnatural "fake" studio album shouldn't be forced out of the Queen archive anyway, I truly wish that people would understand the idiocy of such a project. MercurialFreddie wrote:Ps. Consider this - Made in Heaven was and is a concept album. Not every song fitted in thematically so we cannot know how much has been left off from the Innuendo and post-Innuendo sessions (apart from Face it Alone and Freedom Train).There is nothing. There especially is no finished Freddie vocal takes of those two songs, as they would have been a perfect fit on MIH (much more than for example You Don't Fool Me and IWBTLY) and would have definitely been included on the album if they had existed. |
| Sebastian 03.01.2014 14:44 |
I fully agree. The only song which has documented to be completely done but taken out at the last minute was TMLWKY, and that was due to copyright issues, but still they managed to issue the exact same version on MIH (slightly re-mixed and re-mastered, but nothing had been re-recorded). Wishful thinking is powerfully misleading. People out there imagine there's a version of 'Play the Game' with Andy Gibb sharing lead vocals even though it was *very clearly* stated in the OIQFC mag that he'd only sung backing vocals (and, for all we know, those could already be there on the version we all know). Same for, say, Queen versions of half of Roger's first two solo albums, Queen versions of Brian's solo début, Queen versions of The Cross songs (other than HFE, which was, after all, a recreation). What could exist, and that'd be quite interesting, would be working versions of the songs we already know, and 'solo' versions as well (what each band member recorded before showing the song to the rest). Things like 'Ga Ga' with the old lyrics and with Roger on vocals, or 'Friends Will Be Friends' with John on guitar, etc., but those would be even less commercially suitable for them, as the selling target would be overwhelmingly limited. From a commercial perspective, they're more likely to just Queenise some solo things or the MJ duets, add a couple of re-worked versions and that's it. |
| Heavenite 03.01.2014 19:39 |
I agree with that last comment of Sebastian's re what is likely to be included on the next album. Although one would hope that they can come up with one or two more tracks that we haven't heard yet in some form. I mean don't forget Roger said in his recent interview with the Toronto Sun that they are working on proper tracks and not just demos. Although to the public at large, solo stuff would be considered new material, so that might account for this remark. From what I've read on here Let Me Live was developed from a Freddie solo demo, and while Gazelle really wouldn't be up to par (as aion says), somethiing like New York would certainly be IMO, if there were two additional verses featuring Brian and Roger added to it. So I don't think they would really need all that much material of a good quality to make something special one more time. It's speculation, although Brian and Roger (and John) have already showed a willingness and an ability to make those sorts of decisions and put out material that was accepted positively by most fans and the public at large. So seeing a few more of those sorts of decisions made is not too long a bow, I don't think. Beyond that, Brian has said that at the end Freddie asked the others to write lines and he would sing everything and anything. Maybe that included earlier demos and half written songs too. Who knows? So the possiblity of other material possibly existing is not completely without basis. Although having said that, there has been no evidence 22 years after Freddie's death to suggest that anything came of this. Just one point I would like to make about the criticising of Brian and Roger in all this, it should be remembered that in 22 years they have only released one posthumous album, which was extremely well received. So until we hear what they have to offer next year, I don't think it's reasonable to be too negative about their management of Freddie's musical legacy, at least in relation to recorded material. Other things, like QE and working with PR and AL, are a different issue as far as I'm concerned. And if next year's output is of an acceptable or better quality, then I would say that they have actually shown considerable restraint in not releasing this material sooner. The main reason I can think of being that they wanted to maximise the impact of any remaining material that exists. And just before the release of the Freddie Mercury movie seems about as opportune time as any I would think. |
| Jarjon76 03.01.2014 20:45 |
After going through this thread, I feel like I need to add my two cents. 1) While I don't believe there is anything, at least of real substance, from the post Innuendo sessions I am open to the possibility that something does exist. The real question for me is is it worthy of releasing in proper album form? Let's assume there are let's say 3 or 4 Freddie vocal tracks that have been "found". Are these snippets of Freddie singing ideas that never came to fruition, or are they more in the vein of A Winter's Tale? If the former, would even Roger and Brian adding their bits to these snippets make these tracks complete? I'm not interested in a batch of You Don't Fool Mes, if you know what I mean. I'm all for the band (and record company) releasing whatever is left in the vaults, but must it be in proper album form? Why not add them on the re-remasters that came out a couple of years ago? Why not finally release a box set of demo/rarities/unfinished ideas/etc. and sell it as the finality of everything they have concerning Freddie? To me, this "new" album smells of PR and nothing more. I understand it's ideal to have "new" "found" Freddie music to accompany your upcoming movie, but I suspect they are to quote Roger, "scrapping the bottom of the barrel" here. Made in Heaven featured mostly re-hash that the Brian, John, and Roger put their fingerprints on. Granted, I like that album a lot, but I don't think see this upcoming album being anything but a cheap ploy to sell fans "new Freddie material". I hope I'm wrong. 2) Concerning the topic of this thread, I believe Freddie recorded his last vocals in May 1991. JSS was nice enough to provide us with detailed information on those sessions and all signs point to Mother Love being Freddie's last vocal recording. Yes, it's possible he could have went into the studio after that and recorded more vocals, but considering he wasn't able to finish ML and his state of health the last six months of his life I don't believe he was able to sing, at least to his standards, after May 1991. Otherwise, I would think his priority would have to be finish his vocals on ML. It's a nice story to think he was recording to the end, but realistically I don't believe he was physically nor mentally able to do so. AIDS, especially at that time, is a very debilitating disease. I consider it somewhat of a miracle (no pun intended) that he was able to sing and do a video shoot in May 1991. The man literally gave it his all for as long as he could. It's part of the reason we're such big fans, even in death. 3) As far as fans living in the past, as one poster suggested, I would disagree that the majority of the fanbase is like this. I think it's more of a case of the majority of us wanting to hear any Freddie vocals left in the vaults, if in fact there is anything worthwhile hearing. We all know Freddie is long gone and he's not coming back. We know he's not going to suddenly appear on TMZ with Elvis and Andy Kaufman telling the story on how they've been secretly alive all these years and were waiting for the right moment to reappear. I think the excitement stems from the possibility we're going to hear new Freddie material when we thought the 1991 post Innuendo sessions were the finality. Sorry for the novel like post, but I wanted to chime in on this very fascinating topic. |
| Heavenite 03.01.2014 23:32 |
Nice post Jarjon! As have been just about all the others in this thread IMO, including the recent ones from aion, Sebastian and Mercurial Freddie. I think it will be interesting to revisit this thread once the forthcoming Queen album is released and see what material does finish up being included on the new album, and to what extent quality has been maintained and whether another fully fledged Queen album release was warranted on anything other than commercial grounds. |
| aion 04.01.2014 08:35 |
For the love of God I do not understand this obsession about posthumous studio albums. I'm completely against that idea and will say my final word on the subject.
First of all you would need all of this to have any kind of credible Queen studio album released:
- at least 8-10 completed Freddie vocal takes of songs that have never been released anywhere
- those songs/vocal tracks should be not only complete, but also as GOOD as Queen albums usually were. There must be 4-5 songs so strong as to be singles and stand proudly in line with all previous Queen singles
- all of Freddie's vocals should come from roughly the same time period in order to have natural "continuity"... you couldn't have on the same album his vocals from 1974 and 1990, it just wouldn't work.
This is impossible.
In addition to that there should be an artistic REASON for an album so long after the singer's death, and not just a commercial selling point like a movie coming out.
Can't you see that Made In Heaven itself was already barrel scraping? They didn't have even nearly enough post-Innuendo material to make an album so they padded the late songs with a short demo from 1980, a snippet from 1983, a B-side, and various reworkings of solo stuff. It worked out extremely well considering the lack of material and they were lucky to come out with a cohesive album, but the album was made for an established reason and the well became dry, and they should not attempt anything similar again.
People here have suggested that they rework 'New York' or some other Freddie's solo stuff. Are your standards really that low that you want to have songs that you already own re-released as Queen songs? If you accept anything they might as well remake the whole Mr. Bad Guy album and release it as an album called Mr. Queen Guy! Ridiculous.
Even if there were 20 completed and unreleased songs from The Miracle sessions, I would not want them to be packaged as a studio album because it's just not normal that studio albums keep coming from a musician who died a long time ago. Look at Bruce Springsteen. In 1998 he released a box set called Tracks which had some 50 unreleased songs he had recorded in previous years. He didn't in 1998 release a studio album that consisted of songs he had done 20 years earlier - which would have been stupid - but he put them all out as an archive anthology. Lucky for his fans and you wish the same thing was possible with Queen.
There is a difference between a studio album and an anthology of archive material. A proper album needs to be up to standards and cohesive, natural; but for a rarities anthology you open up the vaults and release all the interesting unreleased things you have in a chronological order. It's for hardcore fans and for historical purposes.
If they release an "album" I will disown it just as much as Cosmos Sucks and won't ever listen to or look at it; but on the other hand the rarities anthology is a thing that for Queen should have been released some 10-15 years ago and is the only Queen release there stills needs to be done.
Sebastian wrote: What could exist, and that'd be quite interesting, would be working versions of the songs we already know, and 'solo' versions as well (what each band member recorded before showing the song to the rest). Things like 'Ga Ga' with the old lyrics and with Roger on vocals, or 'Friends Will Be Friends' with John on guitar, etc., but those would be even less commercially suitable for them, as the selling target would be overwhelmingly limited.That is the natural stuff to include in a rarities anthology... I would be interested in listening to some things like that as well as the best version of Face It Alone there is, but I guess it will never happen. Rant is over. |
| Heavenite 04.01.2014 09:13 |
Wow! That IS a rant aion!....lol! And all your points are reasonable from the purist perspective. But to what extent should we compromise when the artist is dead? That's a fair question and one that is individual for each person, as individual taste always is of course. Your requirements are stringent, but fair enough because they are yours! But for me. if Brian and Roger can come up with an album that I thoroughly enjoy, well, I won't be too worried about how they did it. It's the quality of the end product that will probably have a lot to do with that I think, and you make that point with some of your specs. But some are more to do with the album coming from a bona fide creative process, and I guess I'm a lot less concerned about those, especially given circumstances. And if its a commerical success, I would definitely be happy about that too, provided the I enjoy the music, presumably because the quality is there. . For me, those are the differences between between MIH and TCR. The first one had aspects of barrel scraping about it, no doubt about it. Yet it had some great tracks, sung and played beautifully, even if they weren't original. They also ran beautifully together, as if they had been constructed as one unified piece. TCR, on the other hand, was made up of original tracks and was therefore the result of a creative process between Roger,Brian and Paul Rodgers. Yet I would rather say it was made by a different band called QPR, for all the resemblance it had to a Queen,album. So I will be definitely giving MIH2, or whatever its called, a go when it comes out. Hopefully the quality and enjoyment will be there and I won't regret them releasing it as you already seem to. As I do agree that what has been put out up to now leaves Queen perfectly and with a very good taste in the mouth. To spoil that now with something substandard would be tragic! Surely Brian and Roger know that and wouldn't do it with Freddie's recording legacy And that's regardless of what they do with the songs live with AL and the like. |
| Apocalipsis_Darko 04.01.2014 15:52 |
Well, we know there are songs like I guess were falling out, Hangman, demos with different ideas....but this stuff is more appropriate to be publish in a box set of rareties, than trying to rework it. Is only my opinion. And it's true Andy Gibb worked in Play The Game, but only in the first lines sang, said by Mack. Nothing really trascendental for the music's world, only for Queen fans. |
| YAFF 04.01.2014 16:45 |
aion wrote: But the bottom line is this: a 'new album' shouldn't be released even if there was enough material for one (and there isn't).Who the fuck are you to say whether Queen should or should not release something? Queen fans never cease to amaze. Naturally, you are in the minority on this issue. One more real Queen album is the best possible thing they could do and it finally looks like a real possibility....and hey you don't have to buy it. |
| Supersonic_Man89 23.01.2014 04:01 |
Phoebe's changed his tune: "On the studio records it states that the last time Freddie recorded anything was in May/June 1991. It is also a fact that he went into the studio a couple of times more during his stays in Montreux up until November 1991. Whether he did any vocals or just sat and talked with David Richards, I don’t know, as I was in London for the duration of Freddie’s last visit there." link I'd imagine that that's done with. The times where he would go on record saying 'Freddie recorded in his final weeks' was simply guesswork due to him not even being in the same country! |
| Heavenite 23.01.2014 07:29 |
Thanks! Nice clarification there. That pretty much puts the matter to bed, I would think. |
| Chief Mouse 23.01.2014 08:48 |
Unrelated to this thread but I am curious to know; Perhaps someone with knowledge like Sebastian could help. Around what time he recorded There Must Be More To Life Than This? Thanks. |
| musicland munich 23.01.2014 12:03 |
On that last Montreux trip : Freddie , Jim Hutton, Joe,Terry and Tony King(Mick Jaggers Assistent)...as far as I know. |
| MercurialFreddie 16.03.2014 18:00 |
Well, now Phoebe have posted the final date on which Freddie left Montreux "With the new exhibition in Montreux it is stated that Freddie was last in the studio at the end of May when he recorded his last vocals on the track Mother Love. Freddie returned to Montreux a couple of times after that, and left for the last time on Sunday 10th November." link |
| The Real Wizard 16.03.2014 18:58 |
He got onto an airplane two weeks before dying of AIDS ? Is that even possible? |
| musicland munich 16.03.2014 19:06 |
^Jim Hutton describes it in his book too. He was allowed to not check in with the regular people. |
| The Real Wizard 16.03.2014 19:14 |
Fascinating. Amazing that they managed... credit to everyone involved. That said, did Freddie ever check in at an airport with the regular people .. ? ;) |
| musicland munich 16.03.2014 19:33 |
Out of the same book- Freddie, " Not even Liz Taylor gets away with that" ( to the fact that he didn't get checked by the border patrol on that last trip)...the guesswork is up to you. |
| Sebastian 22.04.2014 06:16 |
The Real Wanker wrote: He got onto an airplane two weeks before dying of AIDS ? Is that even possible?Of course, because at the time they didn't know he had two weeks left... hindsight is 20/20. |
| The Real Wizard 22.04.2014 15:19 |
Aye, true. |
| BETA215 09.10.2014 22:54 |
Any news? |
| Sebastian 18.10.2014 14:09 |
I think there's not much more to add unless Justin volunteers to contribute again. |