| Silken 15.03.2013 13:38 |
I don't care much about religion, but as an Argentinian I'm interested in knowing what people from other countries think about the new Pope. |
| Donna13 15.03.2013 14:39 |
I am in the United States. People here are very excited and happy. I have heard from our media here: He is the first non-European pope. He is of Italian decent, humble and living a life without luxuries, dedicated to helping the poor and building churches for the poor communities. He is very well liked and admired by the other cardinals. Having spent all his life in Argentina he is not until now part of the Church politics in Rome, although he is considered a good and tested leader, and a person of knowledge and education. He likes opera, has taught several subjects, and majored in chemistry. So, he seems a very good choice. I'm not Catholic, but I can appreciate the process and historic and worldly significance of the new pope. |
| Day dop 15.03.2013 15:19 |
Anti abortion, anti gay marriage, poking his nose into where it doesn't belong... New boss looks much like the old boss. Personally, I can't stand anything to do with the institution of child abuse and cover ups or those who'd want to put their face to it. Disgusting. link |
| The Real Wizard 15.03.2013 17:26 |
After some of the initial reports from the media circus, I really wanted to like him. But then I read this quote of his from a few years back: "Women are naturally unfit for political office. Both the natural order and facts show us that the political being par excellence is male; the Scripture shows us that woman has always been the helper of man who thinks and does, but nothing more." link So - nothing to see here, folks. Business as usual at the Vatican. |
| inu-liger 15.03.2013 18:25 |
Well unfortunately Bob, not to defend the church (who I still hate btw), but apparently that "quote" was made up: link However, still doesn't change the fact he's against gays and safe sex methods. Apparently he labelled children of gay parents as being discriminated against by said parents! |
| Saint Jiub 15.03.2013 20:34 |
Don't call me Francis |
| Holly2003 16.03.2013 01:45 |
Panchgani wrote: Don't call me FrancisIf Queenzone is like a foot, you are our big toe ... |
| thomasquinn 32989 16.03.2013 06:18 |
Donna13 wrote: I am in the United States. People here are very excited and happy. I have heard from our media here: He is the first non-European pope. He is of Italian decent, humble and living a life without luxuries, dedicated to helping the poor and building churches for the poor communities. He is very well liked and admired by the other cardinals. Having spent all his life in Argentina he is not until now part of the Church politics in Rome, although he is considered a good and tested leader, and a person of knowledge and education. He likes opera, has taught several subjects, and majored in chemistry. So, he seems a very good choice. I'm not Catholic, but I can appreciate the process and historic and worldly significance of the new pope.He's not the first non-European pope. There have been three from Africa, one from (present day) Turkey and six from Syria. link |
| Donna13 16.03.2013 07:58 |
Yes, more recently they are reporting that he is the "first non-European pope in one thousand years". Also, apparently he never finished his chemistry degree, because of illness. I think he seems to be a more lively and confident type of person than recent popes. His choice to be named after St. Francis of Assisi is interesting. He is maybe making a statement about church finances and helping the poor. |
| Saint Jiub 16.03.2013 13:16 |
Holly2003 wrote:Thanks. I may be too modest, but I think that there are much bigger toes on Queenzone. LOLPanchgani wrote: Don't call me FrancisIf Queenzone is like a foot, you are our big toe ... I could continue this movie quoting game, but I would have to resort to cheating (googling). |
| GratefulFan 16.03.2013 19:07 |
I read the debunking of that quote Thursday am on snopes, which is the first place I went after reading the quote on a blog because it was fairly patently absurd given the sentiments, the context, and Pope Francis' position in Argentina. It did make me lol that it was apparently a Mexican atheist organization that was the first big vector of dissemination with their 18,000 followers and 11,000+ shares of the quote. First rule of "critical thinking": be arsed to check sources. Second rule: if it's 'Yahoo Answers' maybe dig a little deeper. Of the pundits' comments and information on the positions and record of the new Pope my favourite was Piers Morgan's: "He is known to be, duh, anti-abortion, anti-gay marriage." Fairly predictable in the Catholic hierarchy in their golden years set! |
| Heavenite 17.03.2013 03:20 |
He seems like a very warm engaging man who cares for the poor. OK, so he is going to be a bit backward on some important issues like the treatment of women in the church and homosexuality, but that's a given at this point unfortunately with the Catholic Church. However if he could make a real difference to the world's poor or something like that, well he could still have a productive papacy in my view. Maybe when a few more of the oldies die off we'll see real reform and maybe then the church could become relevant to most of the developed world. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 17.03.2013 06:10 |
Up until this past week, the Vatican stood with the Muslim Brotherhood, Iran and other extremists in opposition to the UN’s attempt to end violence against women worldwide. Specifically, they objected to language in the new UN statement which indicated that no religion, custom or tradition can be used as an excuse to ignore a government’s obligation to eliminate violence against women – including by permitting husbands to rape their wives. By opposing this non-binding UN statement, the Vatican, like the Muslim Brotherhood, has insisted their abusive practices are put before (read that, ‘in place of’) the advancement of women. Of course, their intent to continue the oppression and abuse of women is not a surprise, but it is disturbing nevertheless. When – if – this new pope shows leadership, fairness and common sense by withdrawing the Vatican’s objection to this – especially now that it has passed despite the attempts to thwart it – then, maybe, we can start to form opinions of him and where he might lead the catholic church. Until then, in my opinion, he is little more than another bigot in another position of power. |
| thomasquinn 32989 17.03.2013 09:16 |
If I might take this opportunity: I am abhorred by the fact that the supposedly civilized and secular western world, whilst acknowledging that theocratic regimes have no legitimacy in the Middle East, still recognizes the Vatican as a WORLDLY STATE led by an absolute monarch that is welcome to send ambassadors (called nuntii) to the governments of the world. I have no right to deny Catholics their spiritual leader, but I am firmly of the opinion that the Vatican as a worldly state has unacceptable diplomatic and political means at its disposal to influence foreign governments, and that the Vatican should no longer be recognized as a wordly state, and that its nuntii are an unacceptable form of religious interference with democratic government. |
| john bodega 17.03.2013 12:44 |
"I have no right to deny Catholics their spiritual leader" Well I do, and if I had the power to back it up I would. Man, if I could address those maggots directly, I'd have a field day. It's about God, and it's not about money? Fine then, guys - let's melt all this gold 'n' shit down and turn the entire basilica into housing for the poor. And let's see about overturning their tax free status. |
| The Real Wizard 17.03.2013 13:28 |
^ check and mate. But then where would they store all the "heretical" scriptures they've been suppressing since the fourth century? |
| GratefulFan 18.03.2013 07:42 |
At least paint the ceiling of the Sistene Chapel beige or something. You know, every blathering word I wrote on on the Atheism thread was written because I assumed that people would just instictively care that bad facts and bad assumptions about faith in general and Catholicism specifically could be unjust. Really, you wouldn't think it would be particularly difficult to find something fair to complain about on this topic, or for such allegedly enlightened minds to find a little balance and thoughtfulness when they do. I accept that it was from the beginning an utter waste of time. I wish I could have every second back. I'd rather go paper my bedroom in Adam Lambert posters and Skype backwards with Medusa than spend one more naive minute thinking I have anything to offer any of this hurtful, wallowing, brick-stupid prejudice. |
| waunakonor 18.03.2013 13:05 |
GratefulFan wrote: At least paint the ceiling of the Sistene Chapel beige or something. You know, every blathering word I wrote on on the Atheism thread was written because I assumed that people would just instictively care that bad facts and bad assumptions about faith in general and Catholicism specifically could be unjust. Really, you wouldn't think it would be particularly difficult to find something fair to complain about on this topic, or for such allegedly enlightened minds to find a little balance and thoughtfulness when they do. I accept that it was from the beginning an utter waste of time. I wish I could have every second back. I'd rather go paper my bedroom in Adam Lambert posters and Skype backwards with Medusa than spend one more naive minute thinking I have anything to offer any of this hurtful, wallowing, brick-stupid prejudice.I got similarly frustrated with everything going on there haven't even glanced at that thread for a while. I don't understand how people are still finding new things to post there. I think it would be fun Skyping with MEDUSA. Then I could finally look the little prick in the eyes and tell him "!!!ENOZNEEUQ FO FFO SSA ELTTIL RUOY TEG DNA ECAF GNIKCUF RUOY KCUF" |
| john bodega 18.03.2013 15:18 |
Fuck the Pope. |
| waunakonor 18.03.2013 20:49 |
Zebonka12 wrote: Fuck the Pope.That would cause him to no longer be eligible to be Pope. |
| thomasquinn 32989 19.03.2013 07:42 |
waunakonor wrote:Actually, it wouldn't. Catholic clergy have to live celibate, every Catholic adult male is, theoretically, eligible for the papacy.Zebonka12 wrote: Fuck the Pope.That would cause him to no longer be eligible to be Pope. |
| Heavenite 19.03.2013 08:37 |
Missed out again!! Dammit! |
| *goodco* 19.03.2013 15:10 |
Day dop wrote: |
| GratefulFan 19.03.2013 20:50 |
*goodco* wrote: Yup.....I thought of 'Won't Get Fooled Again', but you beat me to the punch. "Give him time" I heard. Well, two years ago he led a march against the approved gay marriage act in his home country. He's stuck in the Middle Ages as to women. Time....is not on his side. Same ol' song and dance, my friends. Expressing disappointment, antipathy or throwing your hands up in the air at some imagined told-you-so lost opportunity because the new Pope is, er, Catholic, is a bit silly. Of course he's anti-abortion. Of course women will not become priests tomorrow, or perhaps ever. Of course he's anti gay-marriage. He's the Pope! On homosexuality the Church is on the wrong side of justice. And due to the nature of Catholic doctrine it may possibly be on the wrong side of it for a long time. So you know, plan for that. But do not confuse Catholic doctrine with the synthesis of Catholic thought. I saw a poll the other day that indicated that American Catholics support gay marriage at a rate 7% greater than Americans as a whole. The evangelicals in the US will have dragged down the national average, but the point is that the more controversial points of Catholic doctrine are not reflected through Catholic beliefs unchanged, no matter how prominent that doctrine is in the mind of non-Catholics. Secular values co-exist and most importantly other aspects of the faith encourage rational, compassionate and justice centred thought. Generally I've seen numbers anywhere from 54% through 75% of Catholics in support of gay marriage over the years. Canada has had legal gay marriage for several years now with the highest support for it in Quebec at 75%. Half the Catholics in Canada live in Quebec. Heavily Catholic Ireland also supports gay marriage at an impressive 75%. So while people understandably roll their eyes and feel anger at the anti-homosexual presentation of Catholic dogmatism, it's useful to consider the larger context of both the dogmatism and the actuality of the attitudes on the streets in cities and towns where laws and rights and equality really live. The temptation will be to think that Catholics have generally embraced these attitudes in spite of their church and not at least in part because of it, but anecdotal and theological evidence suggests otherwise. I haven't seen much to guage Pope Francis' specific beliefs on the role of women in the Church, so I can't comment on the Middle Ages assertion. If you're referring to a quote about women in politics that was widely circulated, that quote was a fabrication. However the fact remains that women cannot be ordained priests and for Doctrinal reasons may never be ordained as priests. Like ever. So again, don't look for that change any time soon. If one is in the small minority of Catholics who drags one's ass to church on Sunday you will see female readers, Sunday School teachers, alter servers and servers of communion. It's true you'll only see a man doing the heavy work at the front of the church, and it's true you know the hierarachy is fully male, but it is a tradition that many people are generally comfortable with, including me. Partly because traditions are anchors, but also very much because as a measure of equality and influcence, the appearance of a hopeless gap is again misleading where it counts. One way to measure Catholic influence on society is to follow the money. I'll use American figures as that represents about 60% of annual global Catholic spending, and due to the concentration of wealth there, it subsidizes the entire operation around the world. These numbers are not from the Church, they are independent estimates from The Economist for 2010. Of $171,600,000,000 (171.6 billion) in expenditures in 2010, almost 100 billion went to hospitals and health care networks around the world. The Catholic Church is the largest non-governmental health care provider globally and operates over a quarter of the world's medical facilities from teaching hospitals to the smallest clinics in the third world. Almost 50 billion went to colleges and universities. About 11 billion is spent on day to day local costs at the Diocesan level which includes churches and schools. As the largest single charitable organization in America they spent an additional 4.7 billion on various local projects and causes. About 8.5 billion is dedicated to "Other" which could be investments, legal costs, the settlement of abuse cases, scientific research through the Pontifical Academy of Sciences or the Vatican Observatory and any number of other things. I'm guessing on "Other" as it wasn't indicated. But clearly the vast majority of the money goes to projects that serve people and these are the places that individuals will be brought into contact with Catholic services and missions and ideas: charities, churches, schools, colleges & universities, and hospitals & clinics. In elementary schools if you see a man there that is not a parent, good chances are he's a janitor or he's lost. Teachers, principals, curriculum developers and senior administration at the board level all the way up to topmost Director of Education positions are overwhelmingly female. Truly, truly overwhelmingly. At secondary schools it's roughly equal. I don't know what the stats are at colleges and universities but I do know that in sharp contrast to 30 years ago females are now teaching theology at universities in significant numbers. In many disciplines in higher education women graduates now outnumber men. Women now consistently make up almost half and sometimes fully half of graduating medical doctors. They make up almost 70% of hospital managers and administrators. They of course also dominate the nursing profession. Nuns who are heavily involved in local charity and missionary work are 100% female. You get the point. Over a lifetime people who access vital services in Catholic funded and staffed education, health care and charity will have been amply and sometimes overwhelmingly exposed to women in power, women in key decision making roles and women as direct services providers. Women will have shaped policy and etched their influence in huge numbers and in countless ways. The other major Catholic issues affecting women around the world are of course reproductive rights. Dogmatism also plagues this area, as it does homosexuality above, though I would exlude the direct sancity of life issues (abortion, stem cell research etc.) from that observation because I think they are a separate set of issues in which the Church holds a valid position in that it is a reasonable argument that needs to be beaten with a superior argument, and not eyerolling and outrage. I think a good test of the reasonableness of religious doctrine is whether it could arise independent of religious thought. I think the idea that life is precious and has extraordinary value and that human beings all all stages should be protected from violent death is not a set of beliefs that needs religious thought, though neither is it lessened by that framing. I am personally firmly pro choice, and think these two things together: 1) All women everywhere should have unrestricted access to abortion services and 2) pro-life movements should never go away or be any quieter or gentler than they are right now. The latter contextualizes the former and tells an uncomfortable truth that deserves light, like it or not. This post is incomplete in that the issues are many and often complex. But it's already too long, and honestly I haven't really sensed a true interest in what I would call discussion, so I'll leave it here. I can go further if there seems any point. |
| Heavenite 22.03.2013 15:50 |
Hi Grateful Fan You highlight a lot of the good the Catholic Church does on a regular basis with some of those figures. It's just a damn shame it can't get out of its past and get rid of the discrimination and marginalisation that it has inheritied from less enlightened times. As a result it is judged negatively by so many and I find it no surprise that it needed to go to the Developing World to get the latest pope. Nothing wrong with that at all, but I think it's just another sign that the Church has largely lost it's relevance in the debate about how people within society should live their lives. Doing that leaves it with so much of the hard work that you describe in alleviating sickness and poverty, but creates dissonance within the ranks for any of its followers that still take its views on things including homosexuality and the role of women seriously. |
| thomasquinn 32989 22.03.2013 16:15 |
Sure, the Catholic church does good things. But when African bishops send official letters to the believers telling them that using condoms will give them AIDS, that is evil, and such evil taints all the good they might do. |
| Heavenite 22.03.2013 20:24 |
Totally Thomas! Mind you that's where the Church also does a lot of good and has the potential to do a lot more. It's just got to get it's head out of people's pants and treat people equally regardless of what tools they've got and what holes they want to poke. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 23.03.2013 09:54 |
The catholic church is a religious organization. Period. It should not have the power to hold sway over any of the world’s governments. Its world view is for its followers to observe - not for people of other faiths or no faith. Can 'good' come from the church? Yes, because when so many people unite under one umbrella, it makes sense that good things will, at times, result. That does not take away from the fact that the Vatican actively opposes international calls for equality and protections for women. It does not take away from the fact that it preaches love then righteously discriminates against certain expressions of love – for everyone, not just its followers. It does not absolve the church of the evil mentioned in a previous post, which is the blatant telling of lies it knows will cost what it declares most precious – human life. If catholics still choose to follow the church’s teachings despite what many recognize as its historical and contemporary abuse and overreach of power… well... whatever. The rest of us simply want that organization to stop nosing around in our personal and governmental affairs. |
| john bodega 23.03.2013 10:44 |
"Sure, the Catholic church does good things" I hate it when they say that. They could do all of those good things without being such fucking detestable characters. Fancy dress time is over - let's fucking get over ourselves; put the robes in the trash and move on with your lives, clergy. |
| GratefulFan 23.03.2013 13:58 |
Heavenite wrote: Hi Grateful Fan You highlight a lot of the good the Catholic Church does on a regular basis with some of those figures. It's just a damn shame it can't get out of its past and get rid of the discrimination and marginalisation that it has inheritied from less enlightened times. As a result it is judged negatively by so many and I find it no surprise that it needed to go to the Developing World to get the latest pope. Nothing wrong with that at all, but I think it's just another sign that the Church has largely lost it's relevance in the debate about how people within society should live their lives. Doing that leaves it with so much of the hard work that you describe in alleviating sickness and poverty, but creates dissonance within the ranks for any of its followers that still take its views on things including homosexuality and the role of women seriously.Thanks Heavenite, genuinely, for mucking through all that and offering your thoughts. In referencing 'less enlightened times' you've hit on something that's long been intriguing to me. It's useful to appreciate that the Catholic Church (CC from here on in for simplicity) makes no claim to be particularly malleable or progressive. Not one. It offers just the opposite, in fact, by design. It's belief is that morality is fixed, objective and externally determined by a creator, in this case an entity called 'God' and revealed through some scribble called 'scripture'. So for the CC, moral truth is independent of any given society's view of it's own enlightenment and it believes to it's core that it offers a steady light and a spiritual port in sometimes choppy modern seas . The idea of morality as objective is not inherently backwards or intellectually indefensible. Similar and related ideas co-exist in philosophy under concepts of moral realism which are entirely independent of religious thought. Staying outside of any religious construct I'd note that moral relativism and specifically ethical subjectivism are much more instinctive and comfortable positions for most of us, and certainly the prevailing forces in our mostly secular world, which is why I think I find the theoretical idea of challenges to modern assumptions from a position of objective morality an incredibly interesting concept that cannot be dismissed out of hand as a potential source of unique and powerful insight in some situations. Also, how intriguing if one allows the possibility of a creator or designer to note that our physical world follows rules, and to wonder how that might reflect through our metaphyshical systems as well. While technology and the liberal and progressive thinking most of us share has been a boone to society in so many ways, it hasn't been uniformly or consistently so. So continuing to leave the CC and any of it's specific beliefs entirely aside for a moment, what do you think in theory about the usefulness of a voice or limited counter-force that does by definition position itself as a fixed alternative against some aspects of modern thought and momentum? |
| mooghead 23.03.2013 17:30 |
"Catholic clergy have to live celibate" Apart from all the children they like to penetrate with their penises on a regular, documented basis. I LOVE this thread. |
| Heavenite 24.03.2013 03:06 |
Hi Grateful Fan Just give me a bit of time to think and I'll get back to you on that. :-) |
| Chief Mouse 24.03.2013 03:43 |
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| Mercuryking 24.03.2013 04:27 |
The whole institution should be closed down and those priests should be trialed and put to jail. How many more children need to be molested and abused for this crap to get stopped? How can people even get excited whenever a new pope gets crowned when almost everybody knows what slime these people are. Support the pope and you support child molestation and abuse. Thats my thoughts about this. |
| thomasquinn 32989 24.03.2013 12:36 |
mooghead wrote: "Catholic clergy have to live celibate" Apart from all the children they like to penetrate with their penises on a regular, documented basis. I LOVE this thread.The fact that they *have to* doesn't mean that they actually do. |
| waunakonor 24.03.2013 12:47 |
Mercuryking wrote: Support the pope and you support child molestation and abuse. Thats my thoughts about this.Ha ha, way to simplify everything down to little generalizations that make sense to you. It's like when people see stuff on the news about police abusing their power and conclude that all cops must be dicks. |
| GratefulFan 08.04.2013 22:05 |
Wrong thread. Long live the Pope! Ha ha. :) |
| brENsKi 09.04.2013 11:36 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote:and apart from that^^^ all of the f**kers are from another time, and might as well be from outer bloody spaceDonna13 wrote: I am in the United States. People here are very excited and happy. I have heard from our media here: He is the first non-European pope. He is very well liked and admired by the other cardinals. Having spent all his life in Argentina he is not until now part of the Church politics in Rome, .He's not the first non-European pope. There have been three from Africa, one from (present day) Turkey and six from Syria. l |
| magicalfreddiemercury 09.04.2013 11:53 |
brENsKi wrote: ...and might as well be from outer bloody spaceSorry, but it can't be that. Getting here from outer space requires higher intelligence. |
| GratefulFan 09.04.2013 13:13 |
link |
| waunakonor 09.04.2013 13:35 |
thomasquinn 32989 wrote:Does this mean the pope can start wildly fucking around as soon as he's elected? That's great.waunakonor wrote:Actually, it wouldn't. Catholic clergy have to live celibate, every Catholic adult male is, theoretically, eligible for the papacy.Zebonka12 wrote: Fuck the Pope.That would cause him to no longer be eligible to be Pope. Does he get his very own papal whore? |
| thomasquinn 32989 09.04.2013 13:50 |
waunakonor wrote:I don't think there are any formal provisions, but based purely on precedent, he can pretty much do anything you could possibly imagine without really breaking new ground...I would in fact go so far as to say that just one private papal whore is rather tame in comparison to some of his illustrious predecessors.thomasquinn 32989 wrote:Does this mean the pope can start wildly fucking around as soon as he's elected? That's great. Does he get his very own papal whore?waunakonor wrote:Actually, it wouldn't. Catholic clergy have to live celibate, every Catholic adult male is, theoretically, eligible for the papacy.Zebonka12 wrote: Fuck the Pope.That would cause him to no longer be eligible to be Pope. link |
| thomasquinn 32989 09.04.2013 13:52 |
GratefulFan wrote: linklink |
| brENsKi 09.04.2013 13:56 |
magicalfreddiemercury wrote:don't see much "higher intelligence" in your average meteoritebrENsKi wrote: ...and might as well be from outer bloody spaceSorry, but it can't be that. Getting here from outer space requires higher intelligence. |
| magicalfreddiemercury 09.04.2013 14:27 |
brENsKi wrote:lol! You've got me there.magicalfreddiemercury wrote:don't see much "higher intelligence" in your average meteoritebrENsKi wrote: ...and might as well be from outer bloody spaceSorry, but it can't be that. Getting here from outer space requires higher intelligence. |
