| The Real Wizard 03.01.2013 23:39 |
So, who tried to pass this off as a 2004 session job? Clearly the drum track is taken from the Somebody To Love stems. link |
| inu-liger 04.01.2013 00:06 |
- |
| C_Matt 04.01.2013 01:10 |
Good observation. It's very strange, those are StL drums, the fills, some strange edits, a very flat drum line, very loud, the inflated snare, the cymbals, but it seems the song is real: link But I think Mr. Fuller is innocent: This video was uploaded at 2008, years before StL multitracks were on Internet. Might those are the StL drums and the "Say You Love Me" producers used it with permissions, or Roger actually played the drums for the song. |
| The Real Wizard 04.01.2013 10:28 |
It's definitely his ADATR kit. With 100% certainty I can say the drums are from 1976. |
| GratefulFan 04.01.2013 11:04 |
And with 100% certainty I can say that editing the clear implication of dishonesty you made against David Fuller out of your initial post rather than apologizing for it pending further information is pretty low rent. Many people are likely to have read it over the hours before it was changed and perhaps before somebody bothered to dig up the 2008 video. How hard was that to find? Likely about as hard as me finding a 2004 press release announcing the collaboration, which was about 10 seconds hard. You are very comfortable making unsubstantiated accusations against Fuller, which perhaps is unsurprising given that his attitudes towards the sharing and distribution of rarities threaten those with power and privilege amassed in the chipmunk cheek stuffing world. |
| Sebastian 04.01.2013 11:26 |
It's just sooooo bloody easy to judge others, ain't it? |
| GratefulFan 04.01.2013 11:37 |
Was that for me? Because this kind of shifty, careless crap deserves calling out. If it doesn't seem so to anyone, it's only because it's not the proverbial you who is the target. |
| Jazz 78 04.01.2013 15:28 |
I agree with Bob. The drums are definitely from 76. As a fan since 77 I've heard STL for decdes and can tell you the cymbals are the Paiste's he used and the dryness of the drums is from the STL and ADATR sessions. Not a bad tune though. |
| waunakonor 04.01.2013 21:32 |
I've been looking around and can't find a very definitive resource saying anything about it, which means there's a good chance it's fake. The closest thing I found was a page about all the various non-Queen things Roger Taylor has ever done, on which Cherie is listed (link, however there is a good chance that whoever does this site saw the video in question and assumed it was legitimate. I thought maybe I could find another video on YouTube with the same song, but alas all I could find was the DRF one. I was confused for a moment by another song called Say You Love Me by Cheri Keaggy which, as far as I can tell, is completely different despite seeming so close. As the Internet is often unreliable, the only conclusion I can make until I see more sound evidence otherwise is that this is fake. If GratefulFan says she found a press release on it, or a "2008 video," I would like to see where she found it, because it's not immediately available upon doing a Google or YouTube search for "roger taylor cherie," or, "say you love me cherie." She implies that they were easy to find, so I don't know if I'm looking in the wrong places or if she's just being misleading. All that said, I've like DRF's YouTube channel for a long time, well before I discovered this site (I've also been fond of gregsynthbootlegs for a long time), and whenever I want to listen to some interesting Queen rarities, that channel is always there for me. So, seeing as I don't care much about all this sharing of rarities, I appreciate him even if he may or may not be passing off fakes as the real thing occasionally. |
| GratefulFan 04.01.2013 21:42 |
The video I referenced was the one that ciber_mato found and posted above. The press release was from a wire service on behalf of Lava records on the release of the album. It credits Queen drummer Roger Taylor on the track. I certainly can't identify where the drumming originated but can note that a track that used a sample from Urgent was credited as "featuring the familiar guitar lick" while the Taylor track was listed as featuring the man himself. link |
| GratefulFan 04.01.2013 22:57 |
The song is also on iTunes, with a release date of May 25, 2004, for 99 cents. So iTunes is another resource you sharp nosed fraud sniffers might want to file away. |
| A Word In Your Ear 05.01.2013 07:20 |
It Is a Fake & David Fuller "Now" knows it too. Mr Fuller has asked the question to Roger's wife Sarina. "Could You Have Roger, Listen to a bit of this track and see if he remembers doing the drums to it" Sarina's reply "He (Roger) Did Not Play On This Track" |
| DavidRFuller 05.01.2013 10:05 |
I'm gonna go with an press release over Roger's memory, someone asked him if he sang on Battersea Morning a few weeks ago and he said no, and that was recorded in 2010! Just because the track has a similar pattern and tempo to another doesn't make it the same exact thing. |
| A Word In Your Ear 05.01.2013 11:41 |
DavidRFuller wrote: I'm gonna go with an press release over Roger's memory, someone asked him if he sang on Battersea Morning a few weeks ago and he said no, and that was recorded in 2010! Just because the track has a similar pattern and tempo to another doesn't make it the same exact thing.I didn't out right say you had posted a fake & pass it off as genuine, quite the opposite, just that you believed it to be genuine, now that Sarina has said that Roger did not play on it, I tend to believe what is said from the source (i.e Roger) |
| tero! 48531 05.01.2013 12:09 |
Let's face it, a recording company doesn't go around crediting an artist signed on to another label unless they are absolutely certain they have to. Whether it's a re-recording from 2004, an edit from the GVH dvd surround audio, or if Roger personally provided the multitracks for his latest girlfriend, it doesn't matter a single bit. It's still Roger performing on a mediocre single released in 2004, and being credited for his work. |
| GratefulFan 05.01.2013 12:09 |
The allmusic database lists credits for Roger Taylor on the album as "Drums, Main Personnel" which sounds like something potentially lifted directly from liner notes . Allmusic is a serious subscription based service and the database is managed by editors. Properly sourced corrections are accepted and considered, but the content is not directly user generated: link Roger's (alleged) credits are extensive and interesting: link |
| GratefulFan 05.01.2013 12:15 |
tero! wrote: Whether it's a re-recording from 2004, an edit from the GVH dvd surround audio, or if Roger personally provided the the multitracks for his latest girlfriend, it doesn't matter a single bit.I noticed the list of producers on the album included a "Mark Taylor". Clearly a common surname, but I did wonder if there was some familial connection that might be behind Roger's association, whatever its full nature is. |
| tero! 48531 05.01.2013 12:19 |
That's got to be a coincidence, otherwise we would have heard of his award-winning cousin years ago... |
| GratefulFan 05.01.2013 12:30 |
Oh. Ha ha. I guess he's famous. I suppose I should have wondered a little harder. When I saw Corey Hart as a producer I just assumed all of them were obscure. :P. Kara DioGuardi of American Idol was also a producer. As flakey as she was on Idol she has always been a serious enough behind the scenes person. It seems like they gave this artist significant enough support and backing. Funny how some fly and some don't. The song was no better and no worse than any other in the long line of successful sap. |
| GratefulFan 05.01.2013 12:32 |
inu-liger wrote: -Stay classy. |
| DavidRFuller 05.01.2013 13:08 |
Yeah, I'll go with Lava's press release and allmusic over Roger's memory any day. Shouldn't have tweeted Sarina, knowing how atrocious RT's memory is. He probably doesn't remember any collaborations that only took a day or two. |
| inu-liger 05.01.2013 14:49 |
tero! wrote: Let's face it, a recording company doesn't go around crediting an artist signed on to another label unless they are absolutely certain they have to.link "Dave Grohl reveals he doesn't actually appear on Michael Jackson's LP 'Michael'" |
| inu-liger 05.01.2013 15:47 |
GratefulFan wrote:Never you mind ;Pinu-liger wrote: -Stay classy. |
| Sebastian 05.01.2013 19:21 |
Roger's memory isn't perfect - nobody's is - but it's positively eidetic compared with Brian's. |
| tero! 48531 06.01.2013 02:47 |
inu-liger wrote:If they've used a two second sample of his playing, he's still appearing on the album even though he couldn't recognise it himself.tero! wrote: Let's face it, a recording company doesn't go around crediting an artist signed on to another label unless they are absolutely certain they have to.link "Dave Grohl reveals he doesn't actually appear on Michael Jackson's LP 'Michael'" The record company could have taken a chance on it, but It's much easier (and cheaper) to get clearance for all samples beforehand, than to have a lawsuit over each of them. |
| inu-liger 06.01.2013 04:05 |
tero! wrote:Very possible. I did notice some similarities between the drumming on "(I Can't Make It) Another Day" and the recent Nirvana reunion song "Cut Me Some Slack", although probably coincidental on one count.inu-liger wrote:If they've used a two second sample of his playing, he's still appearing on the album even though he couldn't recognise it himself. The record company could have taken a chance on it, but It's much easier (and cheaper) to get clearance for all samples beforehand, than to have a lawsuit over each of them.tero! wrote: Let's face it, a recording company doesn't go around crediting an artist signed on to another label unless they are absolutely certain they have to.link "Dave Grohl reveals he doesn't actually appear on Michael Jackson's LP 'Michael'" The problem with the MJ track is that the drum performance does come across as very stiff in playing however, but you suggesting that it could have been "sampled" does make some sense if that were the case. The mixing could have also made it unrecognizable too, easily. I have old demos with Unbalanced where the sound of the drum mix was so rather poorly done, it did NOT reflect my style of playing and just made it sound incredibly weak instead. |
| inu-liger 06.01.2013 04:06 |
@SarinaPotgieter wrote: (via Twitter) @inuliger thanks!... Yes you are right, he didn't play on this track. " |
| GratefulFan 06.01.2013 06:46 |
Given that your two day old tweet to her relates to Roger's awareness of "passing off archive drum work as a rather fraudulent attempt at a recent collaboration" I have to question whether Sarina has anything reliable to add to this discussion at all. Does the evidence really point to fraud at this point? Whose fraud? The record company's fraud? That is intended as a serious question. What would the theory be that supports both the available evidence and Sarina's statements? |
| A Word In Your Ear 06.01.2013 07:35 |
DavidRFuller wrote: Yeah, I'll go with Lava's press release and allmusic over Roger's memory any day. Shouldn't have tweeted Sarina, knowing how atrocious RT's memory is. He probably doesn't remember any collaborations that only took a day or two.The press release from lava is only as good as the music journalist who wrote it. It is only human to err. I mean, How many Roger Taylor's are there in the world, there must be 1000's ? I can name 3 off hand, other than our Roger M Taylor. Roger Taylor (Tennis Player) Roger Taylor ( Neighbour of Mine) & Roger Taylor (Drummer From Duran Duran) It Could be Roger Taylor from "Duran Duran" Drumming & the music journalist has just presumed that it's our Roger. I mean it's not like music Journalists to get it wrong.........is it? But do Have to admit, it does sound like the "Somebody to Love" - Multitrack Stems, Drums. |
| GratefulFan 06.01.2013 07:44 |
I wouldn't think music journalists write record company press releases as a matter of course. |
| emrabt 06.01.2013 08:32 |
Just like Rod Stewart dueting with Cee-Lo Green, it's 100% accurate to say it's featuring Roger Taylor even if it's from samples. because it really does feature him and it’s not a lie. From the top of my head "Ghetto Gospel" (feat. Elton John) is the best example, "written by E. John and T. Shakur" but there are plenty of others. If it was handled by the record company Roger probably didn't even know. |
| GratefulFan 06.01.2013 08:48 |
emrabt wrote: If it was handled by the record company Roger probably didn't even know.I did wonder about exactly this. I like puzzles like this. They produce all sorts of interesting questions that lead to new bits of information about things I don't usually think about. Who arranges/approves the use of samples? Who writes press releases and establishes credits? How is the allmusic database maintained? Is Twitter generally useless in trying to get a straight answer out of somebody or is it just Sarina? These things have all come up in this brief discussion and I genuinely think it's great. |
| GratefulFan 20.01.2013 11:59 |
Was sufficiently curious about all this to pick up a used copy of the 2004 CD in a batch of recent Amazon purchases, just to see the liner notes. The relevant bit is attached. I included the first song which samples Foreigner's 'Urgent' just out of interest in seeing the difference in the way the songs are credited. Not sure what to chalk that up to, but it's interesting. I googled the phrase "appears courtesy of Queen Productions" and the only other time that appears verbatim relating specifically to a band member is in reference to Brian's participation on a Zucchero project. I don't know what the nature of that project was so not sure if that sheds any light or not. Now, if any completist out there would like a Celine Dion type CD that features Roger Taylor one way or another, gratis, let me know here. |
| emrabt 20.01.2013 12:02 |
I'm no expert but i think that would comfirm roger didn't know about it. It's intresting anyway. |
| tero! 48531 20.01.2013 14:11 |
I'm no expert either, but let's use some common sense here. "contains samples from Urgent" = some sections of this new song feature some samples from this old song, but not all of the song, and not all the time. "drums: Roger Taylor" = all the drums throughout the whole song are sampled from Roger's work. "as performed by Foreigner produced under license from Atlantic Recording Corp." = the samples are from a song performed by Foreigner, and the use of these samples has been licensed by Atlantic Recording Corp. "Roger Taylor appears courtesy of Queen Productions" = Roger Taylor as a guest performer (as sampled from a 1976 Queen recording) needs an approval from the company which owns the original 1976 recording... Since Roger happens to be a director of that company, he himself has approved his own appearance. |
| GratefulFan 20.01.2013 15:34 |
tero! 48531 wrote: I'm no expert either, but let's use some common sense here. "contains samples from Urgent" = some sections of this new song feature some samples from this old song, but not all of the song, and not all the time. "drums: Roger Taylor" = all the drums throughout the whole song are sampled from Roger's work.I have only a rudimentary ability to separate out the parts of a song as I'm listening, but to my ear the Foreigner guitar line runs under virtually the entire Cherie song very much like it does in 'Urgent'. Could somebody more versed and with a better ear explain how the drums as they relate to STL and the guitar as it relates to Urgent are used differently in these two songs? The Cherie song with the 'Urgent' sample: link |
| tero! 48531 20.01.2013 23:16 |
GratefulFan wrote: I have only a rudimentary ability to separate out the parts of a song as I'm listening, but to my ear the Foreigner guitar line runs under virtually the entire Cherie song very much like it does in 'Urgent'. Could somebody more versed and with a better ear explain how the drums as they relate to STL and the guitar as it relates to Urgent are used differently in these two songs? The Cherie song with the 'Urgent' sample: linkThe 5-second sample is very clear at the very beginning of the song, but later on it gets buried in with the other music, and it isn't always easy to make out if it's the original sample or not... And there are other bits of guitar as well, which means that not all of it is sampled. Another difference here is that Roger isn't actually sampled directly from any song, so it would be impossible to clear any sample. My guess is that the legal teams have decided that sampling a separate drum track only equals to a guest appearance of the artists. The only difference here is that the guest bit was recorded decades earlier, and the song built around it... This would of course be analoguous to the sessions of MIH, where Freddie is featured as an artist instead of merely being sampled. |
| inu-liger 21.01.2013 02:05 |
GratefulFan wrote: Now, if any completist out there would like a Celine Dion type CD that features Roger Taylor one way or another, gratis, let me know here.I'd be willing to bite. Do you want the original cost of the Amazon purchase covered plus postage, or something else arranged? PM me :-) |
| GratefulFan 24.01.2013 10:05 |
tero! 48531 wrote: The 5-second sample is very clear at the very beginning of the song, but later on it gets buried in with the other music, and it isn't always easy to make out if it's the original sample or not... And there are other bits of guitar as well, which means that not all of it is sampled. Another difference here is that Roger isn't actually sampled directly from any song, so it would be impossible to clear any sample. My guess is that the legal teams have decided that sampling a separate drum track only equals to a guest appearance of the artists. The only difference here is that the guest bit was recorded decades earlier, and the song built around it... This would of course be analoguous to the sessions of MIH, where Freddie is featured as an artist instead of merely being sampled.Thanks for this. I've decided that 'Urgent' kind of sounds like it's sampling itself. So I'm justifying the divergent credits as a reverent nod to some kind of deep metasample process. :) Not knowing the isolated STL drum track terribly intimately I'm not even sure how or if it changed for the Cherie track. So I'll take your word for it on that last part. Still a bit of an unsolved mystery overall, and it remains interesting. |
| Mr.QueenFan 24.01.2013 19:52 |
The Real Wizard wrote: Clearly the drum track is taken from the Somebody To Love stems. linkYou're right about this! The only thing i can think of right now is that this girl Cherie needs to surround herself with people who understand and respect music (sound). To think that this is better than to hire a "real" drumer who can add something fresh tells me that they will ruin this girls career eventually. A potentially good song totally ruined because of bad producers choices. What a shame! |